Shane, you said that “with regards to ‘thin data’ is that we need *some* purpose for both gathering and publishing the information, because otherwise privacy laws may prohibit companies from gathering or publishing it.” You may be making an erroneous assumption. AFAIK, thin data is not protected by privacy laws. Generally, privacy laws are designed to protect personally identifiable information, and not all types of information. Privacy laws allow the _collection_ personal information for legitimate purposes. Privacy laws are not designed to prohibit the _publication_ of non-personally-identifiable information. This is why ccTLDs in countries with strong privacy laws (such as in the EU) DO collect and publish thin data in their WHOIS systems They do it because it’s allowed, and because there are legitimate reasons to collect AND publish it. And sometimes they publish thick data. For example you will see registrant and contact information below. That’s published because companies are not individuals. All best, --Greg Domain name: virgin.co.uk Registrant: Virgin Enterprises Limited Registrant type: Unknown Registrant's address: The Battleship Building 179 Harrow Road London EN W2 6NB United Kingdom Data validation: Nominet was able to match the registrant's name and address against a 3rd party data source on 21-Apr-2015 Registrar: Corporation Service Company (UK) Limited [Tag = CSC-CORP-DOMAINS] URL: http://www.cscprotectsbrands.com Relevant dates: Registered on: before Aug-1996 Expiry date: 07-Nov-2017 Last updated: 03-Nov-2015 Registration status: Registered until expiry date. Name servers: a4.nstld.com f4.nstld.com g4.nstld.com h4.nstld.com j4.nstld.com k4.nstld.com l4.nstld.com Domain name: virgin.ca Domain status: registered Creation date: 2001/01/31 Expiry date: 2017/03/10 Updated date: 2015/02/02 DNSSEC: Unsigned Registrar: Name: CSC Corporate Domains (Canada) Company Number: 2397937 Registrant: Name: Virgin Enterprises Limited TMA 383374 Administrative contact: Name: Ms Victoria Carrington Postal address: 112 Kent Street, Suite 2001 Ottawa ON K1P 5P2 Canada Phone: 1 613 2325300 Fax: 1 613 5639231 Email: email@shapirocohen.com Technical contact: Name: Russell Berman Postal address: The School House 50 Brook Green London EN W6 7RR United Kingdom Phone: +44.2073132000 Fax: +44.2031263608 Email: email@virgin.com Name servers: a4.nstld.com f4.nstld.com g4.nstld.com h4.nstld.com j4.nstld.com k4.nstld.com l4.nstld.com domain: virgin.fr status: ACTIVE hold: NO holder-c: VEL21-FRNIC admin-c: RD2263-FRNIC tech-c: DA4698-FRNIC zone-c: NFC1-FRNIC nsl-id: NSL17525-FRNIC registrar: CSC CORPORATE DOMAINS INC. Expiry Date: 11/12/2017 created: 28/06/1995 last-update: 07/12/2016 source: FRNIC ns-list: NSL17525-FRNIC nserver: a4.nstld.com nserver: f4.nstld.com nserver: g4.nstld.com nserver: h4.nstld.com nserver: j4.nstld.com nserver: k4.nstld.com nserver: l4.nstld.com source: FRNIC registrar: CSC CORPORATE DOMAINS INC. type: Isp Option 1 address: 2711 Centerville Road, Suite 400 address: DE 19808 WILMINGTON country: US phone: +1 302 636 5401 fax-no: +1 302 636 5454 e-mail: email@cscinfo.com website: http://www.csccorporatedomains.com anonymous: NO registered: 17/10/2006 source: FRNIC nic-hdl: VEL21-FRNIC type: ORGANIZATION contact: Virgin Enterprises Ltd. address: 120 Campden Hill Road address: W6 7RR London country: GB phone: +44 2073132000 fax-no: +44 2031263610 e-mail: email@virgin.com registrar: CSC CORPORATE DOMAINS INC. changed: 03/10/2012 email@nic.fr anonymous: NO obsoleted: NO eligstatus: ok eligsource: REGISTRAR eligdate: 03/10/2012 21:10:50 source: FRNIC nic-hdl: RD2263-FRNIC type: PERSON contact: Rebecca Delorey address: Partner/Avocat associe address: Gilbey Delorey 69 rue de Richelieu address: 75002 Paris country: FR phone: +33 1 56 02 62 00 fax-no: +33 1 56 02 62 10 e-mail: email@gilbeydehaas.com registrar: CSC CORPORATE DOMAINS INC. changed: 08/09/2010 email@nic.fr anonymous: NO obsoleted: NO source: FRNIC nic-hdl: DA4698-FRNIC type: PERSON contact: Domain Administrator address: Virgin Enterprises Ltd. address: The School House address: 50 Brook Green address: W6 7RR London EN country: GB phone: +44 2073132000 fax-no: +44 2031263608 e-mail: email@virgin.com registrar: CSC CORPORATE DOMAINS INC. changed: 26/09/2011 email@nic.fr anonymous: NO obsoleted: NO source: FRNIC City: Augustfehn I CountryCode: DE Phone: +49 4489 941030 Fax: +49 4489 9410369 Email: email@kataplonk.de Changed: 2013-08-03T15:21:00+02:00 ********************************** Greg Aaron Vice-President, Product Management iThreat Cyber Group / Cybertoolbelt.com mobile: +1.215.858.2257 ********************************** The information contained in this message is privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Greg Shatan Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2017 1:33 PM To: Shane Kerr <shane@time-travellers.org> Cc: RDS PDP WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] FW: Now open: 18 January Poll on Purpose Shane, First, I would say that all legitimate purposes need to be catered for, so I don't think we can agree there. :-( Second, I think the garbage can top analogy illustrates the difference between purpose and use. It is not a legitimate purpose of a garbage can top to be used as a sled, even if it is a potential use. (I don't think we can say that it is a legitimate use either, but hopefully we don't have to parse that issue, at least not yet. In college, we used to sled down the hill in the middle of campus on cafeteria trays (from the cafeteria conveniently located near the top of the hill. This was definitely not a legitimate purpose of those sleds. We students may have thought this was a legitimate use of the trays, but I doubt this view was shared by cafeteria staff or university administration. Or maybe we thought it was an illegitimate use, which made it more exciting (it's been a while...).) I share your view that the need for the information is indisputable -- so we can agree there. :-) Nonetheless, I think there are good reasons that it is important to identify the legitimate purposes of the data is collected, and to accommodate those purposes. Indeed, this is one of the essential purposes of this Working Group. Greg On Sun, Jan 22, 2017 at 4:03 AM, Shane Kerr <shane@time-travellers.org<mailto:shane@time-travellers.org>> wrote: Greg, If we can say that not all legitimate purposes have to be catered for, then I agree with you. :) If we say that tracking down the registrar of a domain as part of trademark research is a legitimate purpose, that does not mean that we have to design the system for this purpose, right? To try an analogy: We can recognize that using the plastic top of a garbage can as a sled is legitimate, but we don't insist on designing lids with sledding in mind. Full disclosure: My own take on the "legitimate purpose" discussion with regards to "thin data" is that we need *some* purpose for both gathering and publishing the information, because otherwise privacy laws may prohibit companies from gathering or publishing it. Luckily I think that there are so many such purposes that the need for the information is indisputable. Jumping ahead... as I said in a prior call (sorry for missing ones since then), I would prefer that the information is then allowed for any purpose, without restriction, because otherwise you have to have not only tiresome rules about what is allowed but also the Internet Police to enforce those rules, which seems like a step towards Armageddon. Given that we're still talking about "thin data", which is basically just a pointer to a registrar who has *actual* data, my own recommendation is not to stress too much. This stuff is only very, very vaguely personally identifiable. Cheers, -- Shane At 2017-01-21 14:51:29 -0500 Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc@gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com>> wrote:
I have to disagree. These are legitimate purposes for collection, as well as for disclosure.
Greg
On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 7:02 PM, Stephanie Perrin < stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca<mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca>> wrote:
I filled it out, but I am afraid for most of the purposes I could not agree. We do not *collect *data for many of those purposes. We disclose it to people for those purposes, but the purpose of collecting those data elements is not for tax collection, trademark enforcement actions, etc. This is the conflation issue I have raised repeatedly.
Apologies if I did not make that point clear enough on the call.
Stephanie Perrin
On 2017-01-20 17:35, Gomes, Chuck wrote:
Please note that our current poll ends in about 24 hours. So far only 16 people have responded.
Chuck
*From:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-> bounces@icann.org<mailto:bounces@icann.org> <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org>>] *On Behalf Of *Lisa Phifer *Sent:* Wednesday, January 18, 2017 1:50 PM *To:* RDS PDP WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org>> <gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org>> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Now open: 18 January Poll on Purpose
Dear all,
As directed in the 18 January WG call, this week's new Poll on Purpose is now open for WG member participation:
https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/SZX9QJZ
A PDF of this poll's questions and notes/recordings of the meeting are posted on the 18 January meeting page: https://community.icann.org/x/ EbTDAw
This poll will close at *COB Saturday 21 January 2017*.
All WG members are encouraged to participate in this poll to help advance deliberation and prepare for next week's meeting.
Best regards, Lisa
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