Dear All, Please find the attendance of the call attached to this email and the MP3 recording below for the Next-Gen RDS PDP Working group call held on Tuesday, 11 April 2017 at 16:00 UTC. MP3: http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-nextgen-rds-pdp-11apr17-en.mp3 <http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-nextgen-rds-pdp-11apr17-en.mp3> AC recording: https://participate.icann.org/p6086e50408/ The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master Calendar page: http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__gnso.icann.org_en_group-2Dactivities_calendar-23nov&d=DwMF-g&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=PDd_FX3f4MVgkEIi9GHvVoUhbecsvLhgsyXrxgtbL10DTBs0i1jYiBM_uTSDzgqG&m=GJMkY4Fbi9sry9Z53DaSWJm-mHxMfFxg7MEVDf2JU90&s=FI3QJYH6DWWCDQir6NDMSjPkzdqfTTUmf9Ua-AYpc14&e=> ** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list ** Mailing list archives:http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-rds-pdp-wg/ Wiki page: https://community.icann.org/x/CcPRAw Thank you. Kind regards, Michelle ——————————————— AC Chat Next-Gen RDS PDP WG Tuesday, 11 April 2017 Michelle DeSmyter:Welcome to the GNSO Next-Gen RDS PDP Working Group teleconference on Tuesday, 11 April 2017 at 16:00 UTC for 90 minutes. Michelle DeSmyter:Agenda wiki page: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_C... Michael Hammer:I'll need to drop off at 60 minutes - apologies. Chuck Gomes:Hello all Chris Pelling:Good afternoon all Nathalie Coupet:Hello all Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):Hello All Theo Geurts:'lo Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):be back in 2 min, reloading Greg Aaron:Hi. David Cake:hello all andrew sullivan:Hi all Alan Greenberg:I am getting no audio on AC. Carlton Samuels:Howdy do all andrew sullivan:Am I correct in believing that the silence is just pre-meeting silence, or is there a problem for me/ andrew sullivan:? Lisa Phifer:there is audio now Andrew Scott Hollenbeck (Verisign):Im not hearing anything, either Alan Greenberg:No on AC. Susan Prosser:I'm not getting it either Carlton Samuels:I'm hearing people David Cake:I also can't hear any audio David Cake:Now I can Chris Pelling:I hear Chuck talking now andrew sullivan:audio now Carlton Samuels:Chuck is speaking Alan Greenberg:Carlton, sound on adobe connect? Michelle DeSmyter:I will check into the issue Chris Pelling:I can hear you Chuck :) Susan Prosser:now I can Theo Geurts:audio bridge fine andrew sullivan:just started. Sounded like it buffered for approxmately forever and then started up Carlton Samuels:@Alan, yes. Sound on the a/c room Scott Hollenbeck (Verisign):Still no sound on AC for me Maxim Alzoba(FAITID):Could anyone test adobe audio, I do not hear anything Michele Neylon:AC audio isn't working, but I'm dialled in Michele Neylon:now it is working Scott Hollenbeck (Verisign):Now it's there! Maxim Alzoba(FAITID):I do hear aduio Alan Greenberg:Just started! Kal Feher:oh. audio just arrived Maxim Alzoba(FAITID):UPDATE: my SOI has SSC now in .12. Scott Hollenbeck (Verisign):silence again... Alex Deacon:I heard Andrew but nothing else. I'll dial in.... Scott Hollenbeck (Verisign):I heard maxim Benny Samuelsen / Nordreg AB:same here else complety silence Kal Feher:I heard a bit of Andrew sullivan and maxim, but not hearing others. AC audio is not receiving all speakers atm Alex Deacon:same for me. Sara Bockey:seems to be working for me Alan Greenberg:I am dialed in but on AC, I am hearing everyone I think. Benny Samuelsen / Nordreg AB:People are not been let into the meeting Sara Bockey:Stephanie is waiting to get in....can staff assist? andrew sullivan:yes :) Chris Pelling:Can someone let Stewphanie Perrin in Greg Shatan:Both times I've logged into AC today, it has apparently knocked my Internet connection offline. It could be an instance of correlation not equaling causation, but my Internet connection is usually solid (if unspectacular). Michelle DeSmyter 2:If anyone does need a dialout, please private chat and and we can have an operator dial out to you as well Kal Feher:audio just started to pick up chuck in AC. Michelle DeSmyter 2:IT is addressing the issue right now as well Carlton Samuels:Except for Jamaica! I gotta call the US Toll free via Skype! Lisa Phifer:link to 2a is https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_dow... andrew sullivan:The nice thing about that Internet (it might catch on yet!) is that it can route around the damage of the traditional POTS system :) Michelle DeSmyter 2:I will send the invite out to everyone now as a reminder with phone numbers Volker Greimann:is there no sound today Lisa Phifer:@Volker, there is a tech issue being resolved now Volker Greimann:ah ok. I now got to hear chuck for 2 secs Lisa Phifer:@Volker, if you can dial-in please do Volker Greimann:sorry Benny Samuelsen / Nordreg AB:sound finally Marina Lewis:Hi everyone Lisa Phifer:We will be using the answers given to inform our deliberation on questions in our charter. Recall that this WG's goal in asking the questions was to inform our work. but we have many ohther sources of input to consider as well Michael Hammer:My suggestion is to change the approach for private registration. Let the organization providing the private registration be the registrant of record and responsible for the activities and use of the domain. Volker Greimann:law enforcement documents are usually very one-sided Volker Greimann:after all, they represent the state of how they see the law. Michael Hammer:the relationship between the individual and the private registration organization be contractual. Michelle DeSmyter 2:Is everyone able to hear the audio through your Adobe Connect? Lisa Phifer:@Michael, that would be a potential solution to raise during deliberation on our privacy charter questions Volker Greimann:if the law is X, that is how it has to be, ultimately Michael Hammer:Law enforcement or legal entities can serve search warrents or subpeonas if they need to know the actual registrant. Greg Shatan:We should make sure that the panelist are all aware of this document and have an opportunity to respond and/or contribute. Nathalie Coupet:I think Greg would like the input of privacy lawyers who can defend IPC interests Nathalie Coupet:Consultants? Michael Hammer:My concern is the actual stopping of abusive/malicious activity that is happening (malware, etc). Greg Shatan:I would like the input of privacy lawyers who can dieal with this in commercially pragmatic manner. Nathalie Coupet:Does the GNSO have a budget for this? Greg Shatan:Not merely for intellectual property owners, but for consumers, anti-abuse investigators of all types, consumers and other end-users. My concerns are not merely parochial. Nathalie Coupet:I didn't think they were. Lisa Phifer:@Susan, do you need any staff support (to arrange call, assemble survey, etc) - if so, let us know andrew sullivan:My suggestion to the team is that we just pick a different term. I wonder whether that would be acceptable to people? andrew sullivan:(re: authoritative) Lisa Phifer:@David, same question, let us know if you need a call scheduled, etc andrew sullivan:I think that Nathalie Coupet has also volunteered to the team, BW andrew sullivan:BTW Jim Galvin (Afilias):we could have our own glossary of course, and add the nuance we need to the technical definition to serve our purpose. But I also support a different term. Nathalie Coupet:Thanks, Andrew David Cake:Yes, Nathalie has also volunteered. Volker Greimann:IIRC, this discussion was also a part of the Thick Whois PDP deliberations. David Cake:And yes, we may pick a different term if we can find one. Volker Greimann:maybe we can draw on that work regarding the definition of authoritativeness? Scott Hollenbeck (Verisign):@Volker, I think their definition is part of what people are disagreeing with. I know I don't agree with it. David Cake:Thick whois is relevant, yes. Carlton Samuels:The sound is totally gone now! Carlton Samuels:Reloaded and back! Volker Greimann:@Scott: Disagreement is good, but we then need to ensure we properly define the term going forward. I think it is problematic if one particular term means one thing during one PDP that is still on its way to implementation and another thing during another. Scott Hollenbeck (Verisign):Agreed, and so maybe Andrew's suggestion is a good one. Michele Neylon:The IRT vs the PDP ... .. Volker Greimann:once a certain definition has been agreed, that should have some weight going forward, and any changes should be well argued and documented. Volker Greimann:and ideally also be applied retroactively to already completed work Alan Greenberg:That is 6 hours or a full 1/4 of the meeting devoted to this PDP. A big commitment for those of us that have other AC/SO work as well! Volker Greimann:@Greg: I prefer to be legally compliant-pragmatic Carlton Samuels:@Chuck: Would it be useful to load the EWG's work on this and see if we can get some minds concentrated? Lisa Phifer:See https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_dow... Volker Greimann:as in: best be on the safe side - pragmatic Lisa Phifer:@Carlton, the EWG's Annex D has been merged with Andew's proposed approach in this document being displayed now Amr Elsadr:All documents relevant to today's call are posted on the meeting wiki page here: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_C... Carlton Samuels:@Lisa. Thanks.t noticed Greg Shatan:@Volker, I'm also suggesting being legally compliant and pragmatic. Our goal should be to accomplish our objectives to the greatest extent within the bounds of the law, reasonably and pragmatically applied. Volker Greimann:@greg: maybe the term "pragmatic application of the law" worries me more than it should then? I rather apply the law with some safe space than pragmatically Michele Neylon:We might have very different objectives though :) Lisa Phifer:Note that this WG already looked at EWG's permissible purposes when we deliberated on charter subquestion 3.2. See our working document for purposes for collection of thin data. Nathalie Coupet:@Michele: We could apply the legal principle that what is not forbidden is allowed. andrew sullivan:@Nathalie: I'm not a lawyer: is that actually a univeral legal principle? andrew sullivan:I know it's a legal principle in some systems, but I don't know about all Nathalie Coupet:It's a general legal principle in French law, would need to research for other legal systems Volker Greimann:@nathalie: when it comes to data protection, the principle is turned around. what is not allowed is prohibited Volker Greimann:as in: if there is not a legitimate reason to collect, store, etc the data, you should not be doing it Lisa Phifer:secure protected credentials, Rod Greg Shatan:Pragmatic application does not imply a lack of "safety." We should mitigate risk, not attract it. On the other hand, if one wanted to be absolutely safe, one would stay in bed. Michael Hammer:Lots of people die in bed. Greg Shatan:The bathroom is the most dangerous room in the house. That doesn't keep me out of it.... Greg Shatan:The kitchen is number two and I definitely don't avoid that. But I do take pragmatic precautions. andrew sullivan:@Michael: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.goodreads.com_book_s... ? Greg Shatan:@Michele, I was thinking more about the objectives of the RDS, but I suppose there might be some difference of opinion on that as well.... Michael Hammer:Rod is definitely and old hand. <G> Michele Neylon:lol Greg Shatan:@Andrew, @MIchael, https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__youtu.be_jpkGvk1rQBI&d=... ("How Can We Sleep When Our Beds are Burning?", Midnight Oil) Lisa Phifer:Correction: it is section 2.2.2 of our working document that enumerates our rough consensus agreements on purposes for collection so far Lisa Phifer:Working Document: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_dow... Volker Greimann:@stephanie: In many cases the reseller will not be known by the registrar or registry Michael Hammer:Stephanie does raise an interesting point. Michele Neylon:reseller is in thick Michele Neylon:in .com and .net anyway Stephanie Perrin:great thanks! Volker Greimann:@Michele: Only the reseller of the registrar, but not the reseller of the reseller, or their reseller, or theirs.... Michele Neylon:Volker - no of course not Michele Neylon:that would make the record stupidly long :) Michael Hammer:Weknow that some resellers are more problematic than others from an abuse perspective. Volker Greimann:so the reseller field does not necessarily inform anyone about where they should go to manage their domain Michele Neylon:Volker - true Maxim Alzoba(FAITID):also resellers can create a chain ... Maxim Alzoba(FAITID):of resellers Lisa Phifer:See references in table to group (i) - that's the group Andrew is referring to at the moment Lisa Phifer:Group (i) includes Sponsoring Registrar IANA ID and Registrar Name Sara Bockey:I can't hear anything Sara Bockey:audio back but I missed the last 3 mins of convo Amr Elsadr:@Sara: Would you like a dial-out? andrew sullivan:In case it helps, the mail that I sent about this where I laid out the details has Subject: a suggestion for "purpose in detail" Sara Bockey:Thanks, Amr... I think I'm good for the moment andrew sullivan:hang on, I'll find the link in the archives Amr Elsadr:@Sara: Great. andrew sullivan:The thread starts at http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-rds-pdp-wg/2017-March/002575.html andrew sullivan:I think the table is really helpful, however andrew sullivan:"authoritative" is the right name, IMO :) andrew sullivan:but anyway, the IANA registry is the Real Source for the name Lisa Phifer:Andrew's document is in the meeting materials as well, in printable form. See https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_dow... Lisa Phifer:All of Andrew's text is captured in the merged document, with the exception of the concept of "maximal use" andrew sullivan:At the moment, the relevant IANA registry is listed as a protocol parameters registry. Those are not normally queried online, but are instead imbedded in other systems Chris Pelling:there is also a registered name server lookup to find registered IPs via whois andrew sullivan:I agree with Lisa that everything is captured in this merged document & I don't want to minimise that or suggest it's not excellent work Lisa Phifer:@Andrew, possibly it would help to group the rows to reflect your data groups? andrew sullivan:I just don't want people to focus exclusively tablewise, since it's important to realise that some rows go together Lisa Phifer:The related rows are adjacent but perhaps with color-coding and a summary of why the rows are grouped? andrew sullivan:In respect of the remit issues: this is why not everything I discussed in the mail I sent reflected EWG purposes, because once I had a single reason why everyone needed the data, other purposes didn't matter I think andrew sullivan:@Lisa: no, I think this is good enough. We're all clever enough to keep it in mind as long as we commit to doing so :) Rod Rasmussen:For data collection, one "legitimate" purpose is probably sufficient (ignoring retention and other ancilliary issues). Full debate on the legitimacy of all purposes becomes much more important for discussions around what data is provided to data requestors and under what conditions (e.g. gated vs. open) Roger Carney:@andrew, I sort of agree, except that multiple purposes are also useful "in the future" as at some point a single purpose may no longer be valid Jim Galvin (Afilias):@rod +1 Jim Galvin (Afilias):I wish we would carefully separate collection from publication Rod Rasmussen:@Roger - I kinda ignored that for my answer, but yes, you are dead-on correct - we discussed that in the EWG as well, which is one reason we gave the full matrix. Such an event is unlikely, but possible. Jim Galvin (Afilias):as far as I know there is nothing extra that folks are looking to be collected than what has already been collected. so why do we need more than one purpose? Marc Anderson:@Jim what about language tag? Michele Neylon:woohoo my senility must be improving :) andrew sullivan:I approached this only from collection. I thought we weren't talking about pub yet Jim Galvin (Afilias):@marc - language tag is only relevant if it's present on data you're publishing. seems to me it would have the "rule" applied as the data itself, since it's an integral part of the data. Rod Rasmussen:The "academic" question is actually quite nuanced and layered given ICANN's commitments to transparency and other resposibilities around competition, access, etc. One of the ways you *can* do that is by providing data to researchers working under well-defined (and it is in the world today) academic guidelines and oversight to do studies on these various topics. For example, can people in developing countries get access to domain registration services or are they priced out of the market, or do they not have local registrars available that provide local language services? This kind of important question needs RDS-style data at scale to answer. So one or our jobs may well be to answer that question. Maxim Alzoba(FAITID):not all knids of research are good for community .. like research on methods to instantly collapse DNS all over the planet :) - pretty much legal Rod Rasmussen:@Maxim - yeah, though that example is probably doable via DNS queries and zone files without any RDS involvment at all. :-( Roger Carney:@Rod, I would say that is not "academic" you are defining a more specific ICANN competition/chose evaluation Michele Neylon:eh? the IANA ID is unique to each registrar Chris Pelling:I was about to say that too Michele Michele Neylon:Unless I've misunderstood him Maxim Alzoba(FAITID):not all .. 9998 and 9999 are not :) Michele Neylon:but what I'm hearing is incorrect Roger Carney:@andrew, good point, some data is actively captured, passively "captured" and some generated Michele Neylon:That's a "trading name" Michele Neylon:totally different Michele Neylon:Enom had over 250 IANA IDs Michele Neylon:and quite a few companies are called one thing officially and trade as something totally different Abdeldjalil Bachar Bong:IANA ID IS THE NAME OF REGISTRAR in Whois ? Maxim Alzoba(FAITID):formally they are different legal bodies Michele Neylon:No Michele Neylon:the IANA ID is a number Rod Rasmussen:But to my point - one of the questions we wrestled with as the EWG is how to provide large-scale access to academic researchers in a gated-access RDS world, as there are an unknowable amount of potential community-wide beneficial studies that could be performed, but only with broad access that may not be available otherwise. That's one of the ways this particular use-case was raised in awareness and priority in the EWG work. Anyways, this discussion is much more relevant for the publication portion of our deliberations - there is likely no "academic only" data element on the collection docket. Michele Neylon:which has a name with it Lisa Phifer:Should Registrar Name be a registration data element? andrew sullivan:It certainly is Michele Neylon:it is Chris Pelling:It is showed and is a requirement of the RAA Lisa Phifer:It is currently a data element specified in the RAA Maxim Alzoba(FAITID):9998 9999 are registries acting as registrars ...so it is not very unique Lisa Phifer:I think the question to this WG is: Should Registrar Name be a registration data element? It is - should it be, in order to meet requirements for registration data? andrew sullivan:I withdrew my hand because of time, but I mentioned this upthread Alan Greenberg:So if a registrar changes its legal name, and the next week I do a WHOIS query, does it reflect the old name or new name? Chris Pelling:depends how quick they change it andrew sullivan:The way the names for IANA ids get bound in is usually static andrew sullivan:this is because the IANA registry is a protocol parameters reg Alan Greenberg:What I am asking is does the registry need to go through its entire WHOIS database and make that change? Theo Geurts:the RAA is perhaps not the best example when it comes to guiding us through this Chris Pelling:ICANN gets updated, then it trickles down to the registries andrew sullivan:so it gets included in programs rather than queried real time andrew sullivan:it's like the protocol number for TCP andrew sullivan:@Alan: that's a question of how the registry has implemented andrew sullivan:if the have a clue, they used a table and update it once andrew sullivan:some people don't have such a clue and need to update many rows :) Alan Greenberg:I guess I would have expected the id to be in the actual record and the ID:Name registry contents periodically cached. Maxim Alzoba(FAITID):cross control over registrars might be out of scope of this group Greg Shatan:Google is now a subsidiary of Alphabet; it remains a discrete company, though wholly-owned by Alphabet.... andrew sullivan:@Alan: how someone implements stuff is often surprisng Alan Greenberg:@Andrew Ain't that the truth! Marina Lewis:@Chuck - only if we give equal air time to a "maximalist" approach. Fabricio Vayra:+Marina Fabricio Vayra:@Jim -- Will we link from the ID to the record? andrew sullivan:What this question really boils down to is, "Should the RDS incorporate the IANA registry of registrars?" or maybe "Should IANA's collection of registrar names be considered part of the RDS"? If we frame it that way, I think the answer is yes Marina Lewis:I would like to hear reasons why having the registar listed as a registration data element has NOT been working. In other words, what is the rationale for removing this element from public view now? Michele Neylon:it's a data managment issue andrew sullivan:@Marina: there is no rationale, but we're only talking about collection :) Fabricio Vayra:+1 Marina Michele Neylon:1448 = Blacknight Michele Neylon:You don't need to collect "Blacknight" Michele Neylon:it's already mapped to it Fabricio Vayra:@Michale, will thre be a link to = Blacknight? Chris Pelling:@Jim, you cannot say "Ip" its the registrar login Michele Neylon:So I tend to agree with Jim andrew sullivan:I think the point I made above is the way to frame it, though Theo Geurts:+1 Jim Michele Neylon:Fabricio - you can display the name in the output andrew sullivan:But we're out of time :) Marina Lewis:I ask because the approach we are being asked to take (to achive consensus) is not to throw the baby out with the proverbial bathwater, but rather to identify specific reasons why an existing practice is not working. So far, I have heard nothing. Michele Neylon:you just don't need to collect it Chris Pelling:a few platform providers might use the same IP for a few registrars, but, on EPP connection the login would be unique andrew sullivan:@Michele: someone needs to collect it Lisa Phifer:Note that we are running over call end time, hang in there a minute if you can Fabricio Vayra:QUESTION: So will the ID link to the registrar details? andrew sullivan:you're saying the registry doesn't need to. That's true Chris Pelling:but agree with Jim regarding Minimal, its not needed Michele Neylon:Andrew - IANA has it - so does ICANN andrew sullivan:But the IANA registry _does_ need to andrew sullivan:and so the question is only whether that's part of the RDS. I say yes. Michele Neylon:Andrew - of course Michele Neylon:Or displayed Michele Neylon:personally I don't care Stephanie Perrin:Does not adding it introduce risk/inaccuracy? IN which case we discuss it much later when we discuss risk/accuracy. andrew sullivan:The IANA registry is not today looked up in real tie andrew sullivan:time andrew sullivan:and that's important to keep in mind Michele Neylon:exactly it's static Greg Shatan:Maybe that should be solved. Stephanie Perrin:Have to get on next call, by all! Chris Pelling:have fun all and happy Easter to those that have it :) Maxim Alzoba(FAITID):bye all Greg Shatan:Make the database opaque and difficult to understand is not a great plan. Fabricio Vayra:+1 Greg S andrew sullivan:@Greg: the RDAP approach makes this easier, actually Maxim Alzoba(FAITID):it is not simple already Greg Shatan:Chag Sameach and Good Passover to those celebrating that, as well. Theo Geurts:ciao Chris Pelling:a whois query is very simple andrew sullivan:Regrets for next week -- I'll be at a meeting in China Fabricio Vayra:Thanks, all. Bye. andrew sullivan:so the time would be good, but it'll probably interfere with having to be at the other meetings Abdeldjalil Bachar Bong:au revoir Marina Lewis:+1 Greg andrew sullivan:thanks and bye Amr Elsadr:Thanks all. Bye. Nathalie Coupet:Bye all! Very interesting! Marina Lewis:Bye all Greg Aaron:"The domain name will be necessary for every legitimate purpose."? Is ther ea word missing in there?