Errata -- First sentence should read, " I was not involved with ICANN until late 2006, so I was not a participant in the discussions that led to the UDRP being established at its inception." Philip S. Corwin Policy Counsel VeriSign, Inc. 12061 Bluemont Way Reston, VA 20190 703-948-4648/Direct 571-342-7489/Cell "Luck is the residue of design" -- Branch Rickey -----Original Message----- From: GNSO-RPM-WG [mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Corwin, Philip via GNSO-RPM-WG Sent: Friday, January 04, 2019 2:29 PM To: icann@leap.com; gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [GNSO-RPM-WG] ICE domain name seizures -- potential source of data for RPM PDP? I was not involved with ICANN until late 2006, so I was not PrticipNT in the discussions that led to the UDRP being established at its inception. Other members of this WG likely were and could knowledgeably respond to your initial question. While this WG's Charter requires it to consider whether URS should become an ICANN Consensus Policy, UDRP already has that status and I take it as a given that there is unlikely to ever be consensus within the ICANN community to do away with it. I therefore believe that our Phase 2 efforts will be better focused on improving it. As to the provision of non-judicial alternatives to resolution of other types of legal disputes, I would note that UDRP is not applicable to all types of trademark disputes concerning domains, but only one narrow and rather simple type of trademark dispute that can be resolved quickly and without personal appearances, discovery, or other attributes of full judicial process. Complex civil disputes do not lend themselves to that type of approach; antitrust/competition law disputes, for example, involve exceedingly complex legal and econometric analysis and extended discovery and other procedural attributes, and generally extend for years between initial filing and final appeals. Philip S. Corwin Policy Counsel VeriSign, Inc. 12061 Bluemont Way Reston, VA 20190 703-948-4648/Direct 571-342-7489/Cell "Luck is the residue of design" -- Branch Rickey -----Original Message----- From: GNSO-RPM-WG [mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of George Kirikos Sent: Friday, January 04, 2019 1:08 PM To: gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [GNSO-RPM-WG] ICE domain name seizures -- potential source of data for RPM PDP? Phil: Remind me, what was so special about trademark owners that merit them having non-judicial RPMs? If a party had a dispute with a registrar or registry, that would typically be handled by the courts. e.g. if someone wanted to bring an anti-trust action against Verisign, that would happen in the courts. Are you in favour of the creation of non-judicial alternatives to civil litigation for those other entities and causes of action too, that would expose Verisign to anti-trust decisions outside of courts? If the "justification" for the ICANN-created RPMs is that they're lower cost alternatives to the courts, why not do the same for other causes of actions against registrars and registries, in the name of "self-help" which you appear to argue is desirable? Where are the non-judicial "self-help" remedies for removing entries from the TMCH, for example? Sincerely, George Kirikos 416-588-0269 http://www.leap.com/ On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 12:43 PM Corwin, Philip <pcorwin@verisign.com> wrote:
Thanks for your feedback, Susan.
A few additional personal comments—
It appears from the ICE press release that a number of other national law enforcement agencies may have been involved in the seizures. While the seizure may have been “free” to the trademark owner if the domain was one that met the criteria for bringing a UDRP or URS, there is considerable expenditure of public funds in these efforts. These law enforcement agency domain actions are directed at criminal activity, whereas the great majority of UDRP and URS actions focus on domains that could be the subject of civil trademark litigation. I would not favor eliminating the availability of self-help to trademark registrants via non-judicial RPMs, but one unintended result of doing so might be to encourage some trademark owners to seek law enforcement actions against domains that previously would have merited the filing of a UDRP or URS.
Best to all,
Philip
Philip S. Corwin
Policy Counsel
VeriSign, Inc.
12061 Bluemont Way Reston, VA 20190
703-948-4648/Direct
571-342-7489/Cell
"Luck is the residue of design" -- Branch Rickey
From: GNSO-RPM-WG [mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Susan Payne Sent: Friday, January 04, 2019 5:41 AM To: George Kirikos <icann@leap.com>; gnso-rpm-wg <gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [GNSO-RPM-WG] ICE domain name seizures -- potential source of data for RPM PDP?
I completely agree with Phil's comments.
In addition:
1. Can we try to remember that not all rights infringement or enforcement happens in the US or has a US-connection. From ICE's website the mission is "to protect the national security and public safety of the United States by disrupting and dismantling transnational criminal organizations that engage in cross-border crime".
2. Also from ICE's website: "Due to the lapse in federal funding, this website will not be actively managed". Presumably there are also other impacts on ICE activity, and this is hardly the first time this has happened.
Let's not argue for replacement of ICANN measures by a so-called "free" option which is not available to all, where any action taken depends on the US's current priorities, and whose funding generally is subject to whatever US political squabble happens to be occurring.
Susan Payne
Head of Legal Policy
Valideus
28-30 Little Russell Street
London WC1A 2HN
United Kingdom
E: susan.payne@valideus.com
www.valideus.com
Liability cannot be accepted for statements made which are clearly the sender’s own and not made on behalf of Valideus.
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-----Original Message-----
From: GNSO-RPM-WG [mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of George Kirikos
Sent: 02 January 2019 21:13
To: gnso-rpm-wg <gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org>
Subject: Re: [GNSO-RPM-WG] ICE domain name seizures -- potential source of data for RPM PDP?
Hi Theo,
If it was only about copyright issues, then the list will likely be useless, as I agree that it's out of our scope.
But, it's possible (as per the TechDirt article) that it was actually TM issues too, in which case ICE might have gone after cybersquatting.
One will be able to quickly determine things by looking at the actual list of domains.
In the last paragraph of the TechDirt article, the author writes:
"I've fired off a FOIA request asking for the details of these "seized" domains and the communications with those industry partners.
Should ICE ever decide to obey the law and respond to the FOIA, we'll share it here."
But, perhaps someone else here already has the list and is allowed to publish it.
Sincerely,
George Kirikos
416-588-0269
On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 4:03 PM theo geurts <gtheo@xs4all.nl> wrote:
Hi George,
Is a full list going to help us here? ICE is focussed on copyright "issues."
Sure we can discuss if they do it correctly or not, but it seems to be
out of our scope.
Our bylaws are pretty clear, not to mention;
https://www.icann.org/news/blog/icann-is-not-the-internet-content-po li
ce
Feel free to correct me, I somewhat lost track of this group, so I
apologize in advance.
Thanks,
Theo Geurts CIPP/E
On 2-1-2019 17:48, George Kirikos wrote:
Hi folks,
Happy New Year.
There was news about ICE seizing over 1 million domain names, see:
https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/over-million-websites-seized-glo ba
l-operation
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20181213/18030341224/ice-seizes- ov
er-1-million-websites-with-no-due-process-apparently-unaware-that- co
pyright-trademark-are-different.shtml
I was curious whether anyone (maybe a registrar, registry, or TM
holders who were involved, i.e. the "industry partners") has and can
share the complete list of domain names that were seized, as that
might be a potential source of data for our work.
Sincerely,
George Kirikos
416-588-0269
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