Dear colleagues, I agree with Vaggellis opinion, regarding the Ethiopic and Georgian script separable from the Greek script. Kind Regards, Asimina Giannopoulou From: greekgp-bounces@icann.org [mailto:greekgp-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Vaggelis Segredakis Sent: Monday, May 22, 2017 11:39 AM To: 'Panagiotis Papaspiliopoulos' <p.papaspil@yme.gov.gr>; greekgp@icann.org Subject: Re: [Greekgp] [Ext] RE: Update and Proposal for a Greek script root zone LGR - version 2.1 Dear Panagiotis and colleagues, Sarmad has raised a valid point and I believe we can consider the Ethiopic and Georgian script as separable from the Greek script. Kind Regards, Vaggelis Segredakis From: greekgp-bounces@icann.org<mailto:greekgp-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:greekgp-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Panagiotis Papaspiliopoulos Sent: Monday, May 22, 2017 12:57 AM To: greekgp@icann.org<mailto:greekgp@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Greekgp] [Ext] RE: Update and Proposal for a Greek script root zone LGR - version 2.1 Importance: High Dear colleagues of the Greek GP, Following Sarmad's email last Wednesday (for which I thank him) and taking into account the deadline of the 23rd May, I am asking for your opinion about which policy we should follow regarding the cross-script variants, i.e. only homoglyphs vs. similar/confusable characters, when examining the tables proposed in the recent version of the LGR Proposal. I am looking forward to receiving your comments in time and I thank you in advance for that. Best regards, Panagiotis --- Panagiotis Papaspiliopoulos Telecommunications Expert Hellenic Ministry of Digital Policy, Telecommunications & Media General Secretariat of Telecommunications & Post General Directorate of Telecommunications & Post tel: +30 210 650 8538 fax: +30 210 650 8533 email: p.papaspil[at]yme.gov.gr On 17/05/2017 16:58, Sarmad Hussain wrote: Dear Panagiotis, Greek GP members, I have consulted with the Integration Panel. Here are some comments for the consideration of the Greek Generation Panel: 1. Normally cross-script variants are desired from related scripts. IP affirms Ethiopic and Georgian are separable from Greek script (also see Ethiopic and Georgian script proposals at https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/lgr-proposals-2015-12-01-en[icann.org]<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_resources_pages_lgr-2Dproposals-2D2015-2D12-2D01-2Den&d=DwMDaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=j5Gm7m-wGomIrOWTZeX-ZZHzRF660fuhLbUswr6IAe0&s=Zi0TgpldIS2b6YiyufGUaaAke_26M5ceiKTXMMcnYcE&e=> which have not identified Greek script as related). 2. IP also suggests that cross-variant definitions should be restricted to true homoglyphs (code points that are always or nearly always rendered as exactly identical or almost indistinguishable), and not be extended to cases of ordinary similarity or confusability. (A list of the latter may form an informative annex in an LGR proposal). This suggestion has also been given to Cyrillic Generation Panel, and has been accepted by it. 3. Generally, cross script variants become significant when they enable generating many whole-script confusable labels. Where there are just a couple of potential cross-script variant code points, these may not rise to the level where they need to be addressed in the LGR. If the Greek GP agrees to these suggestions, then there is no immediate need to respond. However, if the Greek GP disagrees with the classification of Georgian and Ethiopic as separable, then we would request the GGP to promptly communicate this, and in any case no later than 23 May 2017. Regards, Sarmad From: Panagiotis Papaspiliopoulos [mailto:p.papaspil@yme.gov.gr] Sent: Friday, May 12, 2017 5:25 PM To: Sarmad Hussain Cc: greekgp@icann.org<mailto:greekgp@icann.org>; p.papaspil@yme.gov.gr<mailto:p.papaspil@yme.gov.gr> Subject: [Ext] RE: [Greekgp] Update and Proposal for a Greek script root zone LGR - version 2.1 Dear Sarmad, Thank you for your email, your support and your valuable comments. I have a question about the Ethiopic and Georgian scripts: how "immediately" do you need to have our response? I understand that it will need some time for the members of the Greek Generation Panel to distinguish homoglyphs from "similar looking" characters. Of course, we can start from the above-mentioned scripts, but, nevertheless, the Panel has to conclude to which policy to follow, generally, for all scripts. I am looking forward to hearing from you. Best regards, Panagiotis On 10/05/2017 17:29, Sarmad Hussain wrote: Dear Panagiotis, Greek GP members, Thank you for inviting me to review the proposal to provide you feedback. I will take a detailed look and get back soon. My current response is pertaining to a more urgent matter, as discussed below. Overviewing the proposal at this time, it is noted that Greek GP is presenting cross-script variants with Georgian, Ethiopic and Myanmar scripts. In these cases, and other cross-script variant cases, I would request the Greek GP to note the following: 1. When looking at cross-script variants, if only a very few (e.g. 1-2 code points) are same, it may be assessed and noted whether the confusion is very limited so that in practice it can only generate very few actual labels which will be confusable. Example is letters like “o” which are present in many scripts, but can only form limited confusable labels, e.g, “ooo”, “oooo”, etc. But when such a letter is used in more general labels, with other letters in a script, the confusability is not likely across scripts. For example, Latin “o” may look similar to ہ in Arabic script but “hello” is very different from “واہ”, not causing such ambiguity. 2. Also, more importantly, it is useful to distinguish homoglyphs from “similar looking” characters when defining cross-script variants. It is very useful to do the analysis more broadly on cross-script similarity, but Greek GP may consider limiting the cross-script variants to only homoglyps and can note broader similarity cases separately in appendices but not part of the variant definition. Current Cyrillic GP cross-script analysis is also using this mechanism. Of course, in all such cases, it is up to the GP to make the final decision. 3. URGENT: Based on the two considerations above, if Greek GP still considers there is variant interaction of Greek script with Ethiopic and Georgian scripts, please formally let us know immediately, as these script LGRs are currently being finalized for integration in LGR-2. You can do this by mailing to me on behalf of Greek GP. Or alternatively, at least for Ethiopic script, you may put a comment directly here: https://www.icann.org/public-comments/ethiopic-lgr-2017-03-23-en[icann.org]<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_public-2Dcomments_ethiopic-2Dlgr-2D2017-2D03-2D23-2Den&d=DwMFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=HALdGv_hHG9R7NI0F9rq01pVa-kD6joXcYxwPjFJ2wE&s=lmXrA0fN4cRB2eai7thEHuXrfNSWjGW1FvB9yNOdwCE&e=>. We look forward to immediate consideration and further response by Greek GP. Regards, Sarmad From: greekgp-bounces@icann.org<mailto:greekgp-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:greekgp-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Panagiotis Papaspiliopoulos Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 3:52 PM To: greekgp@icann.org<mailto:greekgp@icann.org> Cc: xmichailidou@eett.gr<mailto:xmichailidou@eett.gr>; maria@ilsp.gr<mailto:maria@ilsp.gr>; e.karytinou@yme.gov.gr<mailto:e.karytinou@yme.gov.gr> Subject: Re: [Greekgp] Update and Proposal for a Greek script root zone LGR - version 2.1 Importance: High Dear colleagues hi, Χριστός Ανέστη και χρόνια πολλά! I really hope my email finds you well. I know that I haven't communicated for a long time, but I had a very busy professional and family schedule, that it didn't leave me much time to deal with our work in a regular basis. I believe you understand and I thank you for it. Nevertheless, better late than never, I am writing to you in order to give you a big update, as follows. First of all, regarding the changes proposed by Maria in the previous draft (last February), I have written my opinion for each one of them using the comments box aside of the text. Personally, I have accepted most of Maria's comments and suggestions. It will be useful to hear from the rest of you too on this. I also have to inform you that I participated in the ICANN meetings in Copenhagen (11-17 March 2017), representing Greece in the GAC (Governmental Advisory Committee). It was uncertain that I would get the official approval until the last moment, so, after finalizing my trip, I contcted Sarmad in order to meet him there and discuss about the work of our group. Sarmad agreed gladly (as he had initially proposed to meet in the case I would participate in the ICANN meetings in Copenhagen) and, besides that, he asked me to participate in the meetings of the Cyrillic and the Latin Generation Panels as an observer on the 13th and the 14th of March respectively. Moreover, he asked me to give a brief update of our work on Wednesday 15th March during the IDN session, despite the fact that we hadn't done significant progress, and I agreed. Vaggelis Segredakis and Mina Giannopoulou also attended the ICANN meetings in Copenhagen on behalf of the Registry and EETT, participating in the ccNSO (country-code Names Supporting Organisation) meetings. Along with them was Ms Chrisoula Michailidou, who is a lawyer in the Hellenic Telecommunications and Post Commission (EETT, i.e. the Greek Regulator), responsible for domain names' issues. Unfortunately, due to my meeting obligations in the GAC, I could not attend the meeting of the Cyrillic Generation Panel, but, fortunately, I had the chance to participate in the one of the Latin Generation Panel. During this meeting, I met with Mr Dusan Stojicevic, from Serbia, who is the chair of the Cyrillic Generation Panel and I had the opportunity to discuss their work with him. Amongst other things, he informed me that the Cyrillic Panel has prepared tables of cross-script variants, one of them being between Cyrillic and Greek and they were ready to post them for public consultation (something that hasn't been done so far, according to my knowledge). He also informed me that the Cyrillic Generation Panel is about to complete its Proposal to the Integration Panel. In addition, due to the fact that the chair of the Latin Generation Panel is Ms Mirjana Tasic, who is also Serbian and works with Dusan, he informed me a little about the Latin Generation Panel, which seems to be still in the beginning. After the meeting of the Latin Generation Panel, I had the chance to discuss not only with Sarmad, but also with Mr Asmus Freitag, who is a member of the Integration Panel. I explained them that I was studying the MSR-2 (whichis, as you know, a subset of Unicode, created by the Integration Panel for the purpose of the work of the Generation Panels) in order to define any cross-script variants (homoglyphs) between Greek and the other scripts. I showed them an excel file that I had made for that. Both of them told me that, according to their opinion and experience, we have a rather easy work to do and that we don't have to worry that much. In fact, Asmus created a small XML file for the Greek script in order to show me how our deliverable will look like. Nevertheless, I explained them that, due to the fact that Greek are being used at the second level domain under .gr since 2005 and taking into consideration that most of the people who will use Greek domain names live in Greece and Cyprus, we should take into account the user experience and the rules described in the relevant Regulation, which is in force so far and it's working smoothly without any problems. For this reason, all the four of us (Vaggelis, Mina, Chrisoula and me) met on Wednesday the 15th of March, in order to discuss these issues. I believe that this was a very fortunate coincidence, because at the same table it was the responsible Ministry, the Regulator and the Registry of Greece. At this point I would like to refresh your memory by saying that the Regulator (EETT) is responsible for issuing the Regulation of domain names in Greece, which has to be technically implemented by the Registry (FORTH-ICS). We were all of the same opinion, which was to be consistent with the current Greek Regulation, when examining cross-script variants' issues, since there is no Regulation on Greek character domain names in Cyprus and it is better to follow what we know is operable in our environment. We also walked our way through the above mentioned excel file and the work I had done until that time. finally, we discussed how we should continue to work within our Greek Generation Panel. After the IDN session, all of us had the chance to talk again with Asmus about these issues, exchange views and acquire some useful guidance. Our discussions with Asmus were unofficial, because if we have something to ask the Integration Panel we have to do it through Sarmad, who is the coordinator of the whole project. To cut a long story short, I am sending you attached the second version of the draft Greek LGR Proposal, in which all possible 'cross-script variants' between Greek and the other scripts contained in MSR-2 are included and, besides that, a table of the 'within-Greek-script variants' is also included. Now that the tables are on the text, I would like to hear your views. Another thing that I would like to share with you (especially with Maria and Penny, asking for their contribution as linguistic experts), is that, after my presentation on the 15th of March (which is also attached for your information), we received a comment from Mr Mumin Meikal, who was asking about "Arvanitika" and "Karamanlidika". I copy the full text of his question below for your convenience (as was sent later to Sarmad): "I had asked if the Greek Generation Panel had actively researched minority uses of the Greek Script to demonstrate they are not relevant to the Proposal. They are certainly not sanctioned or recognised by the Greek government and most of those are probably historic nowadays or the communities are too small and dying out like Arvanitika. It's too far outside my expertise, but I know that adjacent or minority linguistic communities (e.g. Jewish/Ladino/Judesmo, Armenian, Turkish) have made use of Greek script historically, and such uses may be in a process of revitalization, but for this it needs people on the ground to look at it." He also included the following link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_alphabet#Use_for_other_languages[en.wikipedia.org]<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Greek-5Falphabet-23Use-5Ffor-5Fother-5Flanguages&d=DwMFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=HALdGv_hHG9R7NI0F9rq01pVa-kD6joXcYxwPjFJ2wE&s=Ws8GKcFgWhlg8tMlfkUCyWN3px6ACDjQVJpxUZUjyW4&e=>. My opinion is that we don't really have to deal with the above or other cases, like, for example, the Greek language spoken in Southern Italy ("Great Greece"), for which I don't know if it's also written or not. In any case, we have to reference in our Report these issues in order to avoid any misunderstandings. I would like to hear your views about this and receive your contribution, as experts in the field. Finally, with regard to the tables of 'cross-script variants', please consider that some characters of certain scripts (e.g. Ethiopic or Myanmar) are similar to specific Greek letters only if their font and/or their size is of a certain value. However, I thought it might be useful to think about it too and that's why I included those tables. My dear colleagues, I apologise for this lenghty email, which I hope you find informative and useful. I am looking forward to receiving your input, by the end of May, if possible (I'm just trying to keep the proposed timeline) and I would like to thank you in advance for it. Please, do not hesitate to discuss anything you think is necessary to clarify further. Best regards, Panagiotis -- Panagiotis Papaspiliopoulos Telecommunications Expert Hellenic Ministry of Digital Policy, Telecommunications & Media General Secretariat of Telecommunications & Post General Directorate of Telecommunications & Post tel: +30 210 650 8538 fax: +30 210 650 8533 mob: +30 6932284832 email: p.papaspil[at]yme.gov.gr On 20/01/2017 16:13, Maria Gavriilidou wrote: Dear Panagiotis and all, I wish you all a happy, healthy and prosperous new year! Thank you for the draft "Proposal for a Greek Script Root Zone Label Generation Rules (LGR)" and for the work you have done preparing it. Please find attached a commented version of this draft, where I have taken the liberty to add comments and propose alternative phrasing in some cases in the text. Please feel free to accept or reject them! If you need any clarifications, I’d be glad to answer. Best wishes, Maria Maria Gavrilidou ILSP/R.C. ‘Athena’ Epidavrou & Artemidos 6 GR-15125 Marousi Athens Greece Tel.: +30 210 6875441 Email: maria@ilsp.athena-innovation.gr<mailto:maria@ilsp.athena-innovation.gr> URL: www.ilsp.gr[ilsp.gr]<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ilsp.gr_&d=DwMFaQ&c=...> From: greekgp-bounces@icann.org<mailto:greekgp-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:greekgp-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Panagiotis Papaspiliopoulos Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 1:29 AM To: greekgp@icann.org<mailto:greekgp@icann.org> Subject: [Greekgp] Proposal for a Greek script root zone LGR - 1st draft[incomplete] Importance: High Dear colleagues, I hope my email finds you well. I am not sure if I have forwarded you Sarmad's email regarding the formal announcement of the formation of the Greek Generation Panel by ICANN. If I haven't, you can find it below and, please, accept my apologies for the delay. If I have already done it, please excuse me for the repetition. Moving one step forward, please find attached a first draft of the "Proposal for a Greek Script Root Zone Label Generation Rules (LGR)", which was prepared by me and Vaggelis. For this document we used the structure that has already been used by other Generation Panels in their reports. Of course this structure can be changed in the future, if the Panel decides so. The text which is included in several chapters of this draft was taken by the Report of the Greek Case Study Team "IDN Variant TLDs in Greek Characters" (you can find it in the "Greek Generation Panel" folder in the Google Drive). We look forward to receiving and discussing your comments and suggestions (using track changes) about this first draft. In the meantime, we are studying the Unicode and we are working on the Variant's issue, but feel free to discuss anything you think that needs clarification. Best regards, Panagiotis --- Panagiotis Papaspiliopoulos Telecommunications Expert Hellenic Ministry of Digital Policy, Telecommunications & Mass Media General Secretariat of Telecommunications & Post General Directorate of Telecommunications & Post tel: +30 210 650 8538 fax: +30 210 650 8533 email: p.papaspil[at]yme.gov.gr -------- Original Message -------- Θέμα: RE: [Greekgp] Submission of the Proposal for the Greek Generation Panel Ημ/νία: 11/11/2016 19:20 Αποστολέας: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org<mailto:sarmad.hussain@icann.org>> Παραλήπτης: Panagiotis Papaspiliopoulos <p.papaspil@yme.gov.gr<mailto:p.papaspil@yme.gov.gr>> Dear Panagiotis, Please note that the formation of the Greek Generation Panel has been formally announced by ICANN. See the announcement available at https://www.icann.org/news/announcement-2016-10-31-en[icann.org]<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_news_announcement-2D2016-2D10-2D31-2Den&d=DwMFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=phaBHCW8Wt-waQ4y-3A5Sy-v1zkM8xU_f8zFa_3FYPY&s=EGjk6i3ozFG8b1iizjCGqYGmKbfEvSdQLNhrltDSdVU&e=>. I apologize for the late notification to you due to ICANN 57 meeting. Congratulations to the Greek GP! Please let us know if you would like us to organize and support any calls for the GP or need any further assistance in this work. Regards, Sarmad _______________________________________________ Greekgp mailing list Greekgp@icann.org<mailto:Greekgp@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/greekgp