Jacque and all, Indeed as you state, this is ONE, but only ONE of the endeavors that ALAC staff should do, but it is a minor one at best. The users ARE or should be King, not the other way around. Debating with them regarding reasonable issues they themselves have uncovered or discovered, isn't nearly as helpful or good service to them, and listening and accepting those issues or problems they themselves have uncovered or discovered and are seeking redress and/or solutions to or have already effected solutions for. More importantly taking input FROM users via whatever means available as to users self recognized issues and sharing those broadly to than debate and hopefully arrive at a solution for is serving much more effectively and directly. Taking already known and effected solutions to issues that users have effected themselves is yet another much more important means of serving when that information is shared on public non-restrictive ALAC forums such as this one should be and remain. So again in conclusion to your remarks you so kindly shared with all of us, I cannot see how "loyalty oaths" or the like aid in accomplishing good service to users by users or staff members. I cannot see, nor reasonably contemplate, how this ALAC draft in any meaningful way addresses service TOO users, for users, or by users. I can see clearly how this ALAC draft serves ONLY ALAC and/or ICANN staff members however. -----Original Message-----
From: "Jacqueline A. Morris" <jam@jacquelinemorris.com> Sent: Apr 14, 2008 1:19 PM To: "Jeffrey A. Williams" <jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com> Cc: Nick Ashton-Hart <Nick.Ashton-Hart@icann.org>, NA Discuss <na-discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Subject: Re: [NA-Discuss] [At-Large] ALAC Draft AccountabilityFramework andConflicts of Interest Policy
Huh?? ALSes are supposed to go out into their communities and engage the public (registrant and non-registrant) in the debate on the issues. The public will debate about what they want to debate about. ALSes then bring back the information to ICANN. That to me is serving, not being served.
Quoting "Jeffrey A. Williams" <jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com>:
Jacque and all,
I agree with you that what you state was Dannys point. I was making a different point in response, which differs from yours below. That yet again being that no, we do not hear from very many registrant-users, especially those that are independent registrants-users. We need much more participation from them than we're getting. We also need for the nor-registrant-users to engage the ALS's not so much the other way around as you seem to believe. ALS's should be the servant, not the served. ICANN largely seems to have forgotten this, and the public needs a means by which to remind the ICANN Bod and staff of such. Users are not children or babies, they don't need to be spoon fed, nor do they wish to be so regarded.
Now this said in different terms yet again, if the ALS's should be designed ONLY for non-registrant users, than the paradigm changes to the ALS's being centric ONLY to the issues of non-registrant users of the PUBLIC. If so than "loyalty oaths" and other already articulated parts of the ALAC draft are at a minimum wholly inappropriate, if not down right deranged in nature. Most of the draft is certainly significantly insulting in nature to any adult or even teenager, for gods sake!
-----Original Message-----
From: "Jacqueline A. Morris" <jam@jacquelinemorris.com> Sent: Apr 14, 2008 9:28 AM To: "Jeffrey A. Williams" <jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com>, "Thompson,Darlene" <DThompson@GOV.NU.CA>, Nick Ashton-Hart <Nick.Ashton-Hart@icann.org> Cc: NA Discuss <na-discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Subject: Re: [NA-Discuss] [At-Large] ALAC Draft AccountabilityFramework andConflicts of Interest Policy
We hear from the registrant users all the time, that's Danny's point. The issue is to hear form the others. That's what at Large is trying to do, and that's where you can be constructive and offer suggestions to engage the general public, not the registrants who are already engaged!
-------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeffrey A. Williams" <jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com> Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 12:16 PM To: "Thompson,Darlene" <DThompson@GOV.NU.CA>; "Nick Ashton-Hart" <Nick.Ashton-Hart@icann.org> Cc: "NA Discuss" <na-discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Subject: Re: [NA-Discuss] [At-Large] ALAC Draft AccountabilityFrameworkandConflictsof Interest Policy
Darlene and all,
Darlene,
Please try to remember that registrants are users/members of the public just as much as non-registrants are. Seperating the the two is only useful in matter of perspectives, not actuallity. We all need to hear from users-registrants just as much as we need to hear form non-registrant-users.
-----Original Message-----
From: "Thompson, Darlene" <DThompson@GOV.NU.CA> Sent: Apr 14, 2008 8:39 AM To: Danny Younger <dannyyounger@yahoo.com>, "Jacqueline A. Morris" <jam@jacquelinemorris.com>, Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org>, Nick Ashton-Hart <Nick.Ashton-Hart@icann.org> Cc: NA Discuss <na-discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Subject: Re: [NA-Discuss] [At-Large] ALAC Draft Accountability Framework andConflicts of Interest Policy
Danny,
Actually, I would have to agree with your statement, "The truth of the matter is that most ALSs have only a passing interest on an occasional topic; they have no deep commitment to defend those that they purportedly represent." This goes right to the heart of what Jacqueline was saying. ALSs are not registrants. ICANN wants public opinion on stuff that the public, over all, has only a passing interest in.
So, how do we get more public interest in this (and I DON'T mean registrant interest - I mean John Q Public)? What are your suggestions on how to improve things, rather than just pointing out where everybody else is failing?
D
Darlene A. Thompson Community Access Program Administrator Nunavut Dept. of Education / N-CAP P.O. Box 1000, Station 910 Iqaluit, NU X0A 0H0 Phone: (867) 975-5631 Fax: (867) 975-5610 E-mail: dthompson@gov.nu.ca
-----Original Message----- From: Danny Younger [mailto:dannyyounger@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 11:30 AM To: Thompson, Darlene; Jacqueline A. Morris; Evan Leibovitch; Nick Ashton-Hart Cc: NA Discuss Subject: RE: [NA-Discuss] [At-Large] ALAC Draft Accountability Framework andConflicts of Interest Policy
Darlene,
The Summit Questionnaire was just finalized and the 15 areas of interest cited all relate to information that can readily be found through ICANN's homepage.
Sufficient information is out there already for those that care about DNS issues.
The answer is not to be found in creating a DNS for Dummies series in which 2 brief pages cover each issue -- if that approach is taken then all you will wind up with is something as useless as the "Guide to the DNS for End Users" that was prepared by an ICANN consultant.
Show me one relevant area that an ALS cares about for which sufficient information is lacking.
Information is out there for those that wish to seek it out. You seek to explain ALS non-performance, non-involvement, and non-engagement on the basis of a lack of educational materials. I don't buy the argument.
The truth of the matter is that most ALSs have only a passing interest on an occasional topic; they have no deep commitment to defend those that they purportedly represent.
Consider the IPC that aggressively acts to protect the interests of the intellectual property crowd. By contrast, the bulk of the ALSs have no interest in protecting us -- and that is not something that a Reader's Digest condensed version of an issue will cure.
--- "Thompson, Darlene" <DThompson@GOV.NU.CA> wrote:
Well, OF COURSE the registrant community (in the US, anyways) responded to the RegisterFly debacle - it hurt their interests personally. If something affects me personally, I read up on it and respond, as well. If it doesn't I might not.
ALSs are generally non-profit organizations run by people putting in hugely long numbers of hours dealing with their work. They don't sit behind a desk and have huge amounts of time to go finding stuff and working on stuff that doesn't affect them (or their jobs) directly. You must have tons more time at work to read this stuff than the entire ALS community put together. We all have jobs that actually take up huge portions of our time/life.
When the Canadian ALSs signed up, we were told that easier to digest information would be soon coming out. As Nick has reported there have been various impediments to this but that it should "soon" be coming. Once this is available, then I would suggest that the NARALO do, maybe, a weekly informational e-mailing on one subject to all ALSs - both for their info and for their web sites.
In stating, "The problem isn't that ALSs aren't being properly educated; the problem is that ALSs are not the at-large. The real At-Large cares, reacts and responds; they don't." That is really wrong. The At-Large does care - about those issues that affect them. Comparing them to a registrant that has just had the plug pulled on their web site is completely misleading.
So, what issues do ALSs care about? WELL - that's the information we need to get out to them. What is happening that they should care about? What response is needed? Put out information such as that, and we will get more input.
Constant negativity sure won't help, though.
D
Darlene A. Thompson Community Access Program Administrator Nunavut Dept. of Education / N-CAP P.O. Box 1000, Station 910 Iqaluit, NU X0A 0H0 Phone: (867) 975-5631 Fax: (867) 975-5610 E-mail: dthompson@gov.nu.ca
-----Original Message----- From: Danny Younger [mailto:dannyyounger@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 10:32 AM To: Thompson, Darlene; Jacqueline A. Morris; Evan Leibovitch; Nick Ashton-Hart Cc: NA Discuss Subject: Re: [NA-Discuss] [At-Large] ALAC Draft Accountability Framework andConflicts of Interest Policy
Re: "How can we punish or even expect anything at all out of ALSs that haven't been educated?"
When these organizations signed up they agreed to (1) distribute information on ICANN activities and issues, (2) enable discussions among their members on the issues; and (3) involve their members in relevant ICANN policy development, discussions and decisions.
The ICANN website currently contains information on: a. accountability and transparency b. idn fast-track discussions c. mid-term review considerations d. the 2007 Annual report e. root-server agreements f. new gtlds g. independent reviews h. compliance initiatives i. whois issues j. the registrar accreditation agreement k. nominating committee activities l. iPV6
There are also links to the GNSO Improvements discussion, the ICANN travel policy considerations, the translation program, and to a host of other subjects.
So I guess what you're saying is we first need to teach ALSs how to read. Apparently, they are only capable of reading an ALS application form, but nothing else.
Funny, how registrants that encounter a problem manage to read everything under the sun about an issue and know where to send their complaints and concerns, yet ALSs remain clueless.
Odd that registrants in droves managed to find their way to the ICANN blog and to the public participation sites when the Registerfly mess unfolded, yet ALSs were absolutely silent.
The problem isn't that ALSs aren't being properly educated; the problem is that ALSs are not the at-large. The real At-Large cares, reacts and responds; they don't.
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"If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B; liability depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by P: i.e., whether B is less than PL." United States v. Carroll Towing (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947] =============================================================== Updated 1/26/04 CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security IDNS. div. of Information Network Eng. INEG. INC. ABA member in good standing member ID 01257402 E-Mail jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com My Phone: 214-244-4827
Regards,
Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 281k members/stakeholders strong!) "Obedience of the law is the greatest freedom" - Abraham Lincoln "Credit should go with the performance of duty and not with what is very often the accident of glory" - Theodore Roosevelt "If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B; liability depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by P: i.e., whether B is less than PL." United States v. Carroll Towing (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947] =============================================================== Updated 1/26/04 CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security IDNS. div. of Information Network Eng. INEG. INC. ABA member in good standing member ID 01257402 E-Mail jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com My Phone: 214-244-4827