I find this a super interesting question. Will be interested to see how it evolves in the ICANN context. A few thoughts. In the US context (which is what I'm familiar with) "Consumers" are long established actors that are recognized in specific ways by regulators, courts, etc. in a way that "users" are not. So addressing "user" issues, may, at times, be most pragmatically addressed by translating "user" to "consumer." I don't know anything about international law, but what I have surmised is that ICANN brokers a series of cascading contracts. "Consumers" are likely also understood in a specific ways in international contract law. If that is the case, it is quite pragmatic to consider how "consumer" issues play out in relation to those contracts. Of course, something is lost in translation as "consumer" and "user" are not completely equivalent. For example, an Internet user who connects via a public access center or only uses the internet at work or school would likely not be considered as "consumers." These numbers are quite large. In the US, for example, as many as 1/3 of people don't have broadband at home. Since first attending ICANN, I have been puzzled about what "consumer" and/or what "user" is most impacted by ICANN. As a qualitative research looking a user behaviors, "All of them!" is unsatisfying answer. There must be certain transactions or practices as either a user or consumer when ICANN has more or less impact on me. I would love to see that mapped out. -Dharma Dailey On May 6, 2011, at 12:50 PM, Michele Neylon :: Blacknight wrote:
Darlene
This confused me as well
What's the actual difference between "consumers" and "users" ?
My thoughts would pretty much echo Darlene's (in this instance)
Regards
Michele
On 6 May 2011, at 17:40, Thompson, Darlene wrote:
Hi Beau,
I read everything below and have comments on the users/consumers issue. Perhaps I am too new at this game to fully understand the issue but it seems a little odd to me.
If I go to the grocery store and buy food and then eat it, I've just consumed the food. If I go to a friend's house and they give me food for free and I eat it, I've just consumed the food.
How does this differ for the internet? Whether the product is free or at a cost, we are still consuming them. Also, by encouraging competition, I then have a choice amongst the free products and will choose the one that suits my needs the best prior to consuming it. After consuming it, I may then choose to purchase the upgraded version (or not). I am still a consumer either way.
Am I being extremely naïve and simplistic here?
D
Darlene A. Thompson Community Access Program Administrator Nunavut Dept. of Education / N-CAP P.O. Box 1000, Station 910 Iqaluit, NU X0A 0H0 Phone: (867) 975-5631 Fax: (867) 975-5610 E-mail: dthompson@gov.nu.ca
-----Original Message----- From: na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org ] On Behalf Of Beau Brendler Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 11:58 AM To: na-discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: [NA-Discuss] Update on Consumer Constituency Charter Changes
Those interested in the Consumer Constituency, may I ask that you read the exchange between Rosemary Sinclair (in which she has excerpted the comments of others) below. Please offer any comments as soon as possible. I think most of us involved in this would like to see it move forward without too much further delay. Thanks Beau
-----Forwarded Message----- From: Beau Brendler Sent: May 6, 2011 11:52 AM To: Rosemary Sinclair , Alex Gakuru , ncsg-ec@n4c.eu Subject: Re: : Update on Consumer Constituency Charter Changes Thanks for this. So the suggested new mission statement is this, correct?:
The intended purpose of the Consumers Constituency is to serve as the conduit for consumer interests as they relate to those areas of the Internet within the scope of ICANN. As representatives of consumers, who are using the Internet to purchase or use goods and services, the Constituency will focus on aspects of DNS that impact on consumers such as safety, security, stability, usability, access and any other appropriate concerns to ensure these are adequately represented within ICANN policy development.
The CC will work to promote competition, consumer trust, and consumer choice in the DNS marketplace. With your permission, I will forward this around to some folks who have been involved in the CC for a while and see what they think. My guess is that there will be no problem. I'd like to forward it to NA- Discuss, possibly other ICANN lists. I'll give you some thoughts in the form of pros and cons. Pros first: * Going back to the purchasing goods and services thing is fine with me. In fact, there was some language in the previous CC proposed charters that was very similar. There's a con to this as well, see below for cons. * Seems to me this is a good way to delineate what is in the purview of the NCUC and what is in the purview of CC. In fact, some people have suggested that we should call it "consumer protection constituency" instead of just consumer. I'm fine either way. However, the NCUC could rightly argue that their mission involves consumer protection as well, specifically on privacy issues, so I'll just note that here. * This language would certainly be easier for consumer organizations (Consumentenbond, Test-Achat, my former employer, etc.) to grab onto. * I like the reference presumably to the AOC in the part that says: "The CC will work to promote competition, consumer trust, and consumer choice in the DNS marketplace." Parroting some of the ICANN aspirational language would seem to be important at this phase in a bureaucratic and political sense. Cons next: * The terms "consumer" and "consumer choice" really seem to derail people. When Alex and I convened the meeting in San Francisco, most of the feedback we got was discomfort with these terms and their meaning. So there is still an audience out there in the community who don't yet understand where "end-users" or "regular folks" fit in to the mix here, or within the NCUC. Further, if we are going to use the word "consumer choice" in the mission, then I would be in favor of defining what exactly that means, because I don't really know, and neither did several members of the ICANN board I spoke to in SF. Does that refer to the pricing of services offered by registrars and registries, etc.? Similarly, what is meant by "competition"? * Generally speaking, though the group Alex and I convened in SF was small, there was a lot of dissatisfaction with limiting the scope of the consumer constituency to purchase of goods and services. I don't necessarily agree with that dissatisfaction. However, the more generalized proposed mission statement of the constituency that we came up with after SF, and that Milton is probably referring to in his comment, was literally "written" by the audience who attended that meeting on what the CC should be about, not by Alex or by me -- we really just shaped the feedback. So there is some alienation risk of that community, but I don't think that should hold us back from moving forward. * In other conversations with members of the ICANN board I had, there was limited to no agreement on what the word "consumer" means. So however we go forward, I think we have to be clear on how (and by whom) the plain old "end-user" or regular human being is being represented in GNSO policy making. * Can a reasonable argument be made, in light of the current NCUC mission language, that the Consumer Constituency, with its emphasis on the purchasing of goods and services, etc., therefore be better aligned with commercial or business interests? I'm not saying it should, but am wondering if that argument will be made. And I assume that issue would be addressed by the characteristics of the consumer constituency itself. * This purchasing of goods and services language precedes Alex's involvement in the formation of the constituency, so I don't know what his comfort level with that language is. Alex, what do you think?
-----Original Message----- From: Rosemary Sinclair Sent: May 5, 2011 9:02 PM To: Alex Gakuru , Beau Brendler , ncsg-ec@n4c.eu Subject: : Update on Consumer Constituency Charter Changes
Hi Alex and Beau
Here are some comments/discussion from NCSG EC on the proposed Consumer Charter
Iâve included the latest comments from email discussion below for you to see how our thinking has been evolving
We think itâs best for you to have a look now and let us know how youâd like to proceedâ¦
Cheers
Rosemary
Milton wrote:
But in that case they are not âconsumersâ they are âusersâ. What I am trying to avoid is a fragmentation of âuserâ representation across NCUC and CC. Each âconstituencyâ should have a clearly circumscribed domain and not purport to speak for each other.
ROSEMARY wrote:
but some goods and services may be "free" ....so I included "use"
From: Milton L Mueller [mailto:mueller@syr.edu]
Sent: Thursday, 28 April 2011 1:15 AM
To: ncsg-ec@n4c.eu; Avri Doria
Subject: [ncsg-ec] RE: Rosemary - Update on Consumer Constituency Charter Changes
This looks just about right to me. The purchase of goods and services seems an inalienable part of our concept of âconsumerâ so I like this clarification. But I am still confused by the phrase âwho are using the internet to purchase _or use_ goods and servicesâ ?? Is that an inadvertent typo, or are you referring to digital goods or services that are used online? If the latter, then we still donât need the extra âor useâ because before you can use goods and services as a consumer you need to purchase them.
From: Rosemary Sinclair [mailto:Rosemary.Sinclair@atug.org.au]
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 8:52 PM
To: ncsg-ec@n4c.eu; Avri Doria
Subject: [ncsg-ec] Rosemary - Update on Consumer Constituency Charter Changes
Hi all
Always an interesting processâ¦clarifying the focus
Also raises question of where NCUC Charter review is up toâ¦.
Iâve made some changes to Mission to try to capture some of info below on Consumer Policy
1.1 Mission[KB1]
The intended purpose of the Consumers Constituency is to serve as the conduit for consumer interests as they relate to those areas of the Internet within the scope of ICANN. As representatives of consumers, who are using the Internet to purchase or use goods and services, the Constituency will focus on aspects of DNS that impact on consumers such as safety, security, stability, usability, access and any other appropriate concerns to ensure these are adequately represented within ICANN policy development.
The CC will work to promote competition, consumer trust, and consumer choice in the DNS marketplace
To compare with âNon-commercialââ¦.NCUC Charter draft saysâ¦
The purposes of the Noncommercial Users Constituency are to represent
the views and interests of those who engage in noncommercial speech
and activity on the Internet. It is further created to provide a voice and
representation in ICANN processes to non-profit organizations and
individuals that serve non-commercial interests and provide services such
as education, community organizing, promotion of the arts, public interest
policy advocacy, children's welfare, religion, scientific research, human
rights and the advancement of the Internet as a global communications
system for all segments of society.
Cheers
Rosemary Sinclair
Managing Director, ATUG
Chairman, INTUG
T: +61 2 94958901 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting +61 2 94958901 end_of_the_skype_highlighting F: +61 2 94193889
M: +61 413734490 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting +61 413734490 end_of_the_skype_highlighting
Email: rosemary.sinclair@atug.org.au
Skype: rasinclair
Please visit the ATUG website for Updates and Information www.atug.com.au
-----Original Message----- From: Rosemary Sinclair Sent: Friday, 22 April 2011 3:29 PM To: Avri Doria; ncsg-ec@n4c.eu Subject: RE: [!! SPAM] SPAM-LOW: Fwd: [ncsg-ec] Fwd: Forward: Update on Consumer Constituency Charter Changes
Hi Avri and everyone
I've made a couple of comments in the "Mission" section...looking for a link to the AOC ....which I have always seen as a mechanism for mainstreaming the consumer interests in ICANN processes....just a thought!
I have just "dumped" the words where I think they might go...not attempt at elegance
Not sure how we get a view from Alex/Beau on how they feel about this.....
Cheers
Rosemary
Rosemary Sinclair
Managing Director, ATUG
Chairman, INTUG
T: +61 2 94958901 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting +61 2 94958901 end_of_the_skype_highlighting F: +61 2 94193889
M: +61 413734490 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting +61 413734490 end_of_the_skype_highlighting
Email: [1]rosemary.sinclair@atug.org.au
Skype: rasinclair
Please visit the ATUG website for Updates and Information [2]www.atug.com.au
______________________________________________________________________
From: Avri Doria [mailto:avri@psg.com] Sent: Thursday, 21 April 2011 7:16 AM To: Rosemary Sinclair Subject: [!! SPAM] SPAM-LOW: Fwd: [ncsg-ec] Fwd: Forward: Update on Consumer Constituency Charter Changes
Begin forwarded message:
From: Avri Doria <[3]avri@acm.org>
Date: 14 April 2011 16:43:07 GMT+02:00
To: NCSG EC <[4]ncsg-ec@n4c.eu>
Subject: [ncsg-ec] Fwd: Forward: Update on Consumer Constituency Charter Changes
Hi,
Alex Gakuru and Beau Brendler have finished the merging of their respective groups and are submitting their charter for the Consumer Constituency for NCSG Executive Committee review and approval.
Please review and let's discuss on the list.
thanks
a.
Begin forwarded message:
From: Alex Gakuru <[5]gakuru@gmail.com>
Date: 14 April 2011 14:54:18 GMT+02:00
To: Avri Doria <[6]avri@acm.org>
Cc: Konstantinos Komaitis <[7]k.komaitis@strath.ac.uk>, Robin Gross <[8]robin@ipjustice.org>, Milton L Mueller <[9]mueller@syr.edu>
Subject: Re: Forward: Update on Consumer Constituency Charter Changes
Dear Avri, I requested your advice after San Francisco CC meeting via below message. Could it have been lost to your spam filters? At this point, yes, please accept it a formal submission to NCSG Policy and excuse the route? regards, Alex
References
1. mailto:rosemary.sinclair@atug.org.au 2. http://www.atug.com.au/ 3. mailto:avri@acm.org 4. mailto:ncsg-ec@n4c.eu 5. mailto:gakuru@gmail.com 6. mailto:avri@acm.org 7. mailto:k.komaitis@strath.ac.uk 8. mailto:robin@ipjustice.org 9. mailto:mueller@syr.edu ------ NA-Discuss mailing list NA-Discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/na-discuss
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