Re: [NA-Discuss] [At-Large] Geographic diversity in the NARALO
John and Alan, I stand corrected on the Bylaw provision. That said, the requirement of different countries is present in all the other regional MoUs. As to your point about relative population, this could have been said in other regions as well. China and India could have argued this point in Asia, others in LAC, others still in Europe. Nobody has done so. At the UN, voting could be based upon population, or economic output, GDP, or other statistics but it is not; it is based upon the one country, one vote principle. That is the principle which the 'residents or nationals' provision seeks to continue in ICANN. ICANN, as everyone knows, has in the past been criticised for being too US-centric, and also too Western-centric, as well as too English-centric. I would ask you all to consider the message that would be sent if North America were to adopt less diversity guarantees than any other region. 'One man, one vote' is widely admired as a fundamentally important principle. In international relations, the equivalent principle of 'one country, one vote' is also equally fundamentally important. I have a query in on the geographic diversity provision and the different countries question. I'll let everyone know what I hear back... On 19/05/07, John L <johnl@iecc.com> wrote:
Article 5.4.1 of our current MOU states:
"Selected individuals must be individual members or members of different At-Large Structures based in different countries in the North American region, and they may not be citizens of the same country."
Well, OK, now it's not in the bylaws, now it's in the proposed MOU. I'm getting the impression this is a rule that someone made up one day and said "it's always been that way." ICANN evidently places no requirements on RALO appointed members other than that they be residents of the region.
As I hardly need to remind people, the NA region consists, unlike any other region, of only two countries, one of which is ten times as populous as the other. While I think it is important to encourage geographic diversity, I don't think anyone would favor a rule that required that one member always be from Califonia. Yet California has the same population as Canada. When the Nomcom member is from Canada (who, incidentally, I think is doing a fine job, this isn't about him), this rule would in effect give Canadians twenty times the per capita vote of Americans.
I would adjust that section to say:
"Selected individuals must be individual members or members of different At-Large Structures based the North American region. To the maximum extent feasible, the selected individuals should represent the geographic and cultural diversity of the region."
Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Information Superhighwayman wanna-be, http://www.johnlevine.com, ex-Mayor "More Wiener schnitzel, please", said Tom, revealingly.
-- -- Regards, Nick Ashton-Hart PO Box 32160 London N4 2XY United Kingdom UK Tel: +44 (20) 8800-1011 USA Tel: +1 (202) 657-5460 Fax: +44 (20) 7681-3135 mobile: +44 (7774) 932798 Win IM: ashtonhart@hotmail.com / AIM/iSight: nashtonhart@mac.com / Skype: nashtonhart Online Bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashtonhart
As to your point about relative population, this could have been said in other regions as well. China and India could have argued this point in Asia, others in LAC, others still in Europe. Nobody has done so.
Right. All of the other regions have more countries than seats. NA is different.
English-centric. I would ask you all to consider the message that would be sent if North America were to adopt less diversity guarantees than any other region.
No other region has language that guarantees seats to specific countries. That's about the most anti-diversity approach I can imagine. R's, John
I recall discussing this issue some weeks ago on the list. I seemed to recall that no one had opposition to having both ALAC representatives from the same country, so long as they were both qualified, trusted, etc. I was surprised to see the language in the Draft MOR that Luc pointed out. Bret
Yes, I also remember that exchange. John has changed the text in the MOU and I think it's fine, _________________________________________ Luc Faubert Conseiller en gouvernance TI et en gestion du changement / IT governance and change management consulting +1 514 236 5129 www.LucFaubert.com www.LucFaubert.com/blog www.isoc.qc.ca www.ccig.ca www.uqbm.qc.ca www.maillons.qc.ca
-----Original Message----- From: na-als-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:na-als-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] On Behalf Of Bret Fausett Sent: 19 mai 2007 14:50 To: John L Cc: alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org; na-als@atlarge-lists.icann.org; NA Discuss Subject: Re: [NA-ALS] [At-Large] Geographic diversity in the NARALO
I recall discussing this issue some weeks ago on the list. I seemed to recall that no one had opposition to having both ALAC representatives from the same country, so long as they were both qualified, trusted, etc. I was surprised to see the language in the Draft MOR that Luc pointed out.
Bret
_______________________________________________ NA-ALS mailing list NA-ALS@atlarge-lists.icann.org http://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/na-als_atlarge -lists.icann.org
Draft MoU with ICANN: http://www.icannwiki.org/NA_RALO_MOU
Draft Operating Principles: http://www.icannwiki.org/NA_RALO_OP
Draft Code of Conduct: http://www.icannwiki.org/NARALO_Code_of_Conduct
I cannot see any problem with the wording that John has proposed. I would rather see the best people get the job, regardless of where they are from. Darlene ________________________________ From: na-als-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org on behalf of Luc Faubert Sent: Sat 5/19/2007 11:11 PM To: Bret Fausett; John L Cc: NA Discuss; alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org; na-als@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [NA-ALS] [At-Large] Geographic diversity in the NARALO Yes, I also remember that exchange. John has changed the text in the MOU and I think it's fine, _________________________________________ Luc Faubert Conseiller en gouvernance TI et en gestion du changement / IT governance and change management consulting +1 514 236 5129 www.LucFaubert.com www.LucFaubert.com/blog www.isoc.qc.ca www.ccig.ca www.uqbm.qc.ca www.maillons.qc.ca
-----Original Message----- From: na-als-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:na-als-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] On Behalf Of Bret Fausett Sent: 19 mai 2007 14:50 To: John L Cc: alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org; na-als@atlarge-lists.icann.org; NA Discuss Subject: Re: [NA-ALS] [At-Large] Geographic diversity in the NARALO
I recall discussing this issue some weeks ago on the list. I seemed to recall that no one had opposition to having both ALAC representatives from the same country, so long as they were both qualified, trusted, etc. I was surprised to see the language in the Draft MOR that Luc pointed out.
Bret
_______________________________________________ NA-ALS mailing list NA-ALS@atlarge-lists.icann.org http://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/na-als_atlarge -lists.icann.org
Draft MoU with ICANN: http://www.icannwiki.org/NA_RALO_MOU
Draft Operating Principles: http://www.icannwiki.org/NA_RALO_OP
Draft Code of Conduct: http://www.icannwiki.org/NARALO_Code_of_Conduct
_______________________________________________ NA-ALS mailing list NA-ALS@atlarge-lists.icann.org http://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/na-als_atlarge-lists.icann.o... Draft MoU with ICANN: http://www.icannwiki.org/NA_RALO_MOU Draft Operating Principles: http://www.icannwiki.org/NA_RALO_OP Draft Code of Conduct: http://www.icannwiki.org/NARALO_Code_of_Conduct
Hi Nick and everyone The basis here is not country, and honestly, I think it's up to the NARALO to decide what they want, once it fits the basic principles of the AtLarge. I don't see a problem with John's proposal... to me personally, it's more important that there is an effort for gender and language diversity than country diversity... but then anyone reading the notes from the LACRALO pre-formation could see that. :) So John's proposed language is fine by me (not that I have a vote in NARALO) Jacqueline -----Original Message----- From: Nick Ashton-Hart [mailto:nick.ashton-hart@icann.org] Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 10:36 AM To: John L Cc: Luc Faubert; NA Discuss; alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org; na-als@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [At-Large] Geographic diversity in the NARALO John and Alan, I stand corrected on the Bylaw provision. That said, the requirement of different countries is present in all the other regional MoUs. As to your point about relative population, this could have been said in other regions as well. China and India could have argued this point in Asia, others in LAC, others still in Europe. Nobody has done so. At the UN, voting could be based upon population, or economic output, GDP, or other statistics but it is not; it is based upon the one country, one vote principle. That is the principle which the 'residents or nationals' provision seeks to continue in ICANN. ICANN, as everyone knows, has in the past been criticised for being too US-centric, and also too Western-centric, as well as too English-centric. I would ask you all to consider the message that would be sent if North America were to adopt less diversity guarantees than any other region. 'One man, one vote' is widely admired as a fundamentally important principle. In international relations, the equivalent principle of 'one country, one vote' is also equally fundamentally important. I have a query in on the geographic diversity provision and the different countries question. I'll let everyone know what I hear back... On 19/05/07, John L <johnl@iecc.com> wrote:
Article 5.4.1 of our current MOU states:
"Selected individuals must be individual members or members of different At-Large Structures based in different countries in the North American region, and they may not be citizens of the same country."
Well, OK, now it's not in the bylaws, now it's in the proposed MOU. I'm getting the impression this is a rule that someone made up one day and said "it's always been that way." ICANN evidently places no requirements on RALO appointed members other than that they be residents of the region.
As I hardly need to remind people, the NA region consists, unlike any other region, of only two countries, one of which is ten times as populous as the other. While I think it is important to encourage geographic diversity, I don't think anyone would favor a rule that required that one member always be from Califonia. Yet California has the same population as Canada. When the Nomcom member is from Canada (who, incidentally, I think is doing a fine job, this isn't about him), this rule would in effect give Canadians twenty times the per capita vote of Americans.
I would adjust that section to say:
"Selected individuals must be individual members or members of different At-Large Structures based the North American region. To the maximum extent feasible, the selected individuals should represent the geographic and cultural diversity of the region."
Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Information Superhighwayman wanna-be, http://www.johnlevine.com, ex-Mayor "More Wiener schnitzel, please", said Tom, revealingly.
-- -- Regards, Nick Ashton-Hart PO Box 32160 London N4 2XY United Kingdom UK Tel: +44 (20) 8800-1011 USA Tel: +1 (202) 657-5460 Fax: +44 (20) 7681-3135 mobile: +44 (7774) 932798 Win IM: ashtonhart@hotmail.com / AIM/iSight: nashtonhart@mac.com / Skype: nashtonhart Online Bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashtonhart _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org http://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac_atlarge-lists.icann.org At-Large Official Site: http://www.alac.icann.org ALAC Independent: http://www.icannalac.org No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.5/812 - Release Date: 5/19/2007 1:52 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.5/812 - Release Date: 5/19/2007 1:52 PM
participants (6)
-
Bret Fausett -
Jacqueline A. Morris -
John L -
Luc Faubert -
Nick Ashton-Hart -
Thompson, Darlene