Help create the .nyc Internet space for New York and New Yorkers
Thomas Lowenhaupt wrote:
Top level domains (TLDs) like .com, .org, .edu, and .gov are crucial markers in our online world, but there are not enough of them to distinguish the various ways in which we interact on the web. One of the clearest, most pressing requirements is for TLDs that serve the needs of cities. Not to be a wet blanket or anything, but I'm curious to know why cities -- arbitrary political boundaries -- constitute the "most pressing" need for TLDs.
I heard the same case being put forward by proponents at the GeoTLD workshop in San Juan and was completely underwhelmed by the logic. While I am certainly in favour of a far more open approach to TLDs, I am unimpressed by most claims of greater urgency / relevancy / importance. (I really wish they wouldn't call these staged presentations "workshops"....)
The far more challenging task is to develop .nyc as an organizing force to empower New York City's residents, institutions, and businesses to better connect with one another and the world.
Please help me understand the logic behind this. A TLD is but a naming convention; I don't understand how this plays such a pivotal role in empowering anyone to communicate better. As a tool of civic pride and collective ego I understand the call for .nyc, and there's no shame in putting that forward in the rationale. But I've yet to see the logic that links *any* gTLD to a _necessary_ underpinning of societal connectivity. As an example, I'd like to know -- specifically -- what could be accomplished by .nyc that could not be done using .nyc.us . Of course, ".nyc.us" is already owned by a squatter, which means... Maybe the _real_ need is for a .city TLD, whose second level names could only be allocated to governments or orgs associated with incorporated municipalities. Then the barriers to entry would not be so great for cities such as New Delhi and Sao Paulo, which surely have the population and communications needs of New York but not the wealth. And we haven't even touched on who, in any city, should have the "rights" to the city's TLD. As in the case of .berlin or .nyc, is it simply the first organized group that asks for it? (Isn't that kind of wild-west first-come-first-served approach part of the reason for the chaos in .com?) Must it be non-profit (and if so, why)? Or should it be the appropriate municipal governments (and ultimately have its own subgroup policies like ccTLDs)? What is fair? What is of most value to each city's many stakeholders and to the public at large? Left uncontrolled I see a widespread rollout of city-based TLDs as a hodgepodge of governments, nonprofits, conventional media outlets (ie, toronto.com) and "yellow pages" style commercial directory services. Some will be trustworthy, some not... how will the public benefit from this in the long term in a manner that is significantly better than the status quo? I note a related page on ICANNWiki, http://icannwiki.org/GeoTLDs_-_Categories , about the many various categorizations that are possible. Are all suitable? Should ICANN just adopt a first-come, first-served approach to GeoTLDs, or approach it with some sense of vision that balances diversity and stability? Perhaps ICANN ought to better have its act together on GeoTLDs before steamrolling ahead on them, at very least acknowledging different public needs from GeoTLDs compared to ccTLDs and gTLDs. I note .asia already with us -- how many more will be created before anyone notices that the public is poorly served by the complete lack of vision -- let alone suitable policy -- in this area? (Of course, it's possible that policy exists but that I'm not aware of it, in which case I apologize. One would hope that a half-hour of searching the net would offer at least something from a supposedly transparent organization. Right very little shows up when searching on these terms.) - Evan
As an example, I'd like to know -- specifically -- what could be accomplished by .nyc that could not be done using .nyc.us . Of course, ".nyc.us" is already owned by a squatter, which means...
... that .nyc.ny.us is ready for anyone who wants to use it, and has been for several decades. There's also new-york.ny.us, managed by a legacy registrar in Indiana. I don't bear any particular ill will toward people who want .nyc or .berlin, but I don't see any particular need for or interest in them, either. R's, Geography boy, aka johnl@trumansburg.ny.us
John, I. The very long answer to your question is presented in Towards city-TLDs in the Public Interest, a paper I wrote with the able help of Michael Gurstein. It's 13 single spaced pages present much of our case in great detail. 2. The Internet Empowerment Resolution, from which the .nyc effort emerged, was meant to address the need of residents in our immigrant community for good domain names - short, descriptive, and memorable. Many of them were not here (or just children) in 1995 when the good names were available. And even then, they didn't provide the identity that a streetclothes.nyc name provides. Good names with identity. Why not? 3. Enter "good hotels in New York City" into google. I just got 11,400,000 responses. Perhaps it would serve our city's interest (as well as hotel owners, workers, suppliers, guests) to have our 402 hotels (how many times does 402 go into 11,400,000?) presented in a more orderly and favorable way in www.hotels.nyc. (Note, we're not proposing that google go away, only that we have a small space to present our resources.) You don't like www.hotels.nyc? go to google or yahoo. But the "Towards" paper answers your question in an orderly and reasoned way, presenting the case for a public interest TLD. I hope you have the opportunity to read it. Sincerely, Tom Lowenhaupt -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Levine" <johnl@iecc.com> To: "Evan Leibovitch" <evan@telly.org> Cc: "NA Discuss" <na-discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2008 1:20 AM Subject: Re: [NA-Discuss] Help create the .nyc Internet space for New York and New Yorkers
As an example, I'd like to know -- specifically -- what could be accomplished by .nyc that could not be done using .nyc.us . Of course, ".nyc.us" is already owned by a squatter, which means...
... that .nyc.ny.us is ready for anyone who wants to use it, and has been for several decades. There's also new-york.ny.us, managed by a legacy registrar in Indiana.
I don't bear any particular ill will toward people who want .nyc or .berlin, but I don't see any particular need for or interest in them, either.
R's, Geography boy, aka johnl@trumansburg.ny.us
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Perhaps it would serve our city's interest (as well as hotel owners, workers, suppliers, guests) to have our 402 hotels (how presented in a more orderly and favorable way in www.hotels.nyc.
But this urgent need is already met by www.nychotels.travel. Oh, wait, there is no nychotels.travel. Why would that be? If nobody's willing to spend $100 even to set up that domain, why would they be any more interested in hotels.nyc? Here's an offer: if you can find whoever is going to organize all that useful stuff (not just a PPC squat), I'll pay the $100 and set up nychotels.travel for you. If you look at the unglorious history of new TLDs, the only ones that have gotten significant numbers of registrations are .biz and .info, which are cynical clones of .com (or maybe .org for .info), and perhaps .mobi which has the entire mobile phone industry behind it. The rest have all missed their most pessimistic estimates by about 95%. Maybe .cat can be considered a success, but they have a set of unique circumstances, including their linguistic situation and the support of an influential ICANN board member.
streetclothes.nyc name provides. Good names with identity. Why not?
Like I said, I'm not opposed to city domains, but I see no demand for them other than in the minds of their promoters. There's no reason to throw up artificial roadblocks, but there's also no reason to spend our time on it. Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Information Superhighwayman wanna-be, http://www.johnlevine.com, ex-Mayor "More Wiener schnitzel, please", said Tom, revealingly.
John,
But this urgent need is already met by www.nychotels.travel. Oh, wait, there is no nychotels.travel. Why would that be? If nobody's willing to spend $100 even to set up that domain, why would they be any more interested in hotels.nyc? Here's an offer: if you can find whoever is going to organize all that useful stuff (not just a PPC squat), I'll pay the $100 and set up nychotels.travel for you.
Who is going to organize and operate something like www.hotels.nyc are great questions. I know the hotel trade association here would be pleased (will demand it). On the other hand, if we auction it off, we might get needed funds for civic education on using the net (we are chartered by New York State as a not-for-profit education organization). Allocation and ownership are tough questions to deal with. We're still working on corporate governance, with a variety of possibilities presented on this governance discussion page, so as to add the requisite legitimacy to our effort, so we're not yet in a position to make a decision like who gets www.hotels.nyc. But we've got our thinking beanies on. If you have some thoughts, please contribute them to our wiki. And if you have a billion $s marketing budget to create www.nychotels.travel as an intuitive global destination for those interested in booking a nyc hotel room, send me your paypal account and I'll ante up the $100. On the other hand, if the 400 year old entity that thinks of itself as New York City (with 1/10th of 1% of the worlds population living on 2/100,000ths of its surface) can get its act together and develop a few dozen of these tourist names and present them to a global audience, at the same time a .berlin and .paris are doing so, I bet the marketing $s will be substantially less. Tom Lowenhaupt P.S. "But this urgent need ..." City TLDs are not urgent, any more than consuming particular vitamins or minerals are to our diet. But long term, the vitamin companies say, they help. However, if you're into a competition and your competitors are taking vitamins and minerals and other supplements (think .uk, .hk. .sg, and perhaps soon .berlin and .paris) you'd better be thinking hard about sticking that needle in your ass. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps it would serve our city's interest (as well as hotel owners, workers, suppliers, guests) to have our 402 hotels (how presented in a more orderly and favorable way in www.hotels.nyc.
But this urgent need is already met by www.nychotels.travel. Oh, wait, there is no nychotels.travel. Why would that be? If nobody's willing to spend $100 even to set up that domain, why would they be any more interested in hotels.nyc? Here's an offer: if you can find whoever is going to organize all that useful stuff (not just a PPC squat), I'll pay the $100 and set up nychotels.travel for you.
If you look at the unglorious history of new TLDs, the only ones that have gotten significant numbers of registrations are .biz and .info, which are cynical clones of .com (or maybe .org for .info), and perhaps .mobi which has the entire mobile phone industry behind it. The rest have all missed their most pessimistic estimates by about 95%. Maybe .cat can be considered a success, but they have a set of unique circumstances, including their linguistic situation and the support of an influential ICANN board member.
streetclothes.nyc name provides. Good names with identity. Why not?
Like I said, I'm not opposed to city domains, but I see no demand for them other than in the minds of their promoters. There's no reason to throw up artificial roadblocks, but there's also no reason to spend our time on it.
Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Information Superhighwayman wanna-be, http://www.johnlevine.com, ex-Mayor "More Wiener schnitzel, please", said Tom, revealingly.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Levine" <johnl@iecc.com> To: "Thomas Lowenhaupt" <toml@communisphere.com> Cc: "NA Discuss" <na-discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2008 10:49 AM Subject: Re: [NA-Discuss] Help create the .nyc Internet space for New York and New Yorkers
Perhaps it would serve our city's interest (as well as hotel owners, workers, suppliers, guests) to have our 402 hotels (how presented in a more orderly and favorable way in www.hotels.nyc.
But this urgent need is already met by www.nychotels.travel. Oh, wait, there is no nychotels.travel. Why would that be? If nobody's willing to spend $100 even to set up that domain, why would they be any more interested in hotels.nyc? Here's an offer: if you can find whoever is going to organize all that useful stuff (not just a PPC squat), I'll pay the $100 and set up nychotels.travel for you.
If you look at the unglorious history of new TLDs, the only ones that have gotten significant numbers of registrations are .biz and .info, which are cynical clones of .com (or maybe .org for .info), and perhaps .mobi which has the entire mobile phone industry behind it. The rest have all missed their most pessimistic estimates by about 95%. Maybe .cat can be considered a success, but they have a set of unique circumstances, including their linguistic situation and the support of an influential ICANN board member.
streetclothes.nyc name provides. Good names with identity. Why not?
Like I said, I'm not opposed to city domains, but I see no demand for them other than in the minds of their promoters. There's no reason to throw up artificial roadblocks, but there's also no reason to spend our time on it.
Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Information Superhighwayman wanna-be, http://www.johnlevine.com, ex-Mayor "More Wiener schnitzel, please", said Tom, revealingly.
Who is going to organize and operate something like www.hotels.nyc are great questions. I know the hotel trade association here would be pleased (will demand it).
No, they won't. If they cared, they would already be running nychotels.travel. But I know I'll never persuade you of that. As I've said three times, there is demonstrably no demand for specialized domains such as city domains in the real world. But so long as you don't ask anyone else to subdidize you, that doesn't matter. Good luck and so long. R's, John
Hi Thomas, I must admit that your answers are increasing my confusion rather than reducing them.
Who is going to organize and operate something like www.hotels.nyc <http://www.hotels.nyc> are great questions. I know the hotel trade association here would be pleased (will demand it). On the other hand, if we auction it off, we might get needed funds for civic education on using the net (we are chartered by New York State as a not-for-profit education organization). So... the intent is that the excess revenue anticipated will be funneled into education programs. Interesting... but as a non-profit, what are the contingencies for operating at a loss?
Allocation and ownership are tough questions to deal with. We're still working on corporate governance, with a variety of possibilities presented on this governance discussion page <http://www.openplans.org/projects/campaign-for.nyc/board-of-directors>, so as to add the requisite legitimacy to our effort, so we're not yet in a position to make a decision like who gets www.hotels.nyc <http://www.hotels.nyc>. But we've got our thinking beanies on. If you have some thoughts, please contribute them to our wiki <http://www.connectingnyc.openplans.org>. I assume that all this will be determined _before_ any application goes forward.
I would also note that there is significant opportunity for confusion if the method of allocating www.hotels.<city> differs significantly between the various city-based TLDs. How is this allocation done for .berlin? Why would the same approach not work across all city domains? Shouldn't there be some consistency for the Internet users of the world? Else, it's back to the search engines and all this effort for useful names is an expensive waste.
And if you have a billion $s marketing budget to create www.nychotels.travel <http://www.nychotels.travel> as an intuitive global destination for those interested in booking a nyc hotel room, send me your paypal account and I'll ante up the $100. In what alternate universe does one believe that www.hotels.nyc would not require a massive marketing budget itself? It's not as if competition in that field isn't already plentiful and fierce.
"Intuitive" is in the eye of the beholder, and highly subjective.
On the other hand, if the 400 year old entity that thinks of itself as New York City (with 1/10th of 1% of the worlds population living on 2/100,000ths of its surface) can get its act together and develop a few dozen of these tourist names and present them to a global audience, at the same time a .berlin and .paris are doing so, I bet the marketing $s will be substantially less. I guess much depends upon who's money you're betting with.
(And somehow I suspect there are other cities with even greater populations and/or densities who do not share this need for a TLD. It's important to avoid "we _deserve_ this" mode.)
P.S. "But this urgent need ..." City TLDs are not urgent, any more than consuming particular vitamins or minerals are to our diet. But long term, the vitamin companies say, they help. However, if you're into a competition and your competitors are taking vitamins and minerals and other supplements (think .uk, .hk. .sg, and perhaps soon .berlin and .paris) you'd better be thinking hard about sticking that needle in your ass. Change "vitamins and minerals" to "steroids" and re-ask. Simply because others in the field are doing something dumb or wrong -- or even just ill-advised -- is not an excuse to follow suit.
It is absolutely necessary to nail down the dirty details and find out who will pony up and what the rules will be, before spending money that might be better injected directly into the education programs you speak of. Civic pride alone won't -- can't -- make this fly. And, if service to the Internet-using public outside NYC is at all a concern of this effort, consider having major policies harmonized between the existing applicants (.berlin and .paris) in possible anticipation of a (official or informal) CityNSO. Otherwise I have a hard time supporting it as a pure matter of At-Large public interest. If there are major differences between the different city TLD implementations, the intuition factor you speak of will be a myth at best. - Evan
Evan, Hope my answers are a good as your questions.
Hi Thomas,
I must admit that your answers are increasing my confusion rather than reducing them.
Who is going to organize and operate something like www.hotels.nyc <http://www.hotels.nyc> are great questions. I know the hotel trade association here would be pleased (will demand it). On the other hand, if we auction it off, we might get needed funds for civic education on using the net (we are chartered by New York State as a not-for-profit education organization).
So... the intent is that the excess revenue anticipated will be funneled into education programs. Interesting... but as a non-profit, what are the contingencies for operating at a loss?
We've not see the RFP yet so it's hard to make projections based on suppositions. If ICANN is going to require a billion dollar operation or a N96 are needed bits before we can put a business plan. Our research has been informal, so the demand is unknown, but very positive, especially among the college age students. But the answer about the "contingencies for operating at a loss" is that we will be supported by our community or go out of business. Life sucks.
Allocation and ownership are tough questions to deal with. We're still working on corporate governance, with a variety of possibilities presented on this governance discussion page <http://www.openplans.org/projects/campaign-for.nyc/board-of-directors>, so as to add the requisite legitimacy to our effort, so we're not yet in a position to make a decision like who gets www.hotels.nyc <http://www.hotels.nyc>. But we've got our thinking beanies on. If you have some thoughts, please contribute them to our wiki <http://www.connectingnyc.openplans.org>.
I assume that all this will be determined _before_ any application goes forward.
Yes. And this Tuesday we're having our first conference on the subject.
I would also note that there is significant opportunity for confusion if the method of allocating www.hotels.<city> differs significantly between the various city-based TLDs.
How is this allocation done for .berlin? Why would the same approach not work across all city domains? Shouldn't there be some consistency for the Internet users of the world? Else, it's back to the search engines and all this effort for useful names is an expensive waste.
Indeed. We entered into discussions with the .berlin and .paris developers in Los Angeles and a preliminary report was presented at the Rio IGF. Lots to be done.
And if you have a billion $s marketing budget to create www.nychotels.travel <http://www.nychotels.travel> as an intuitive global destination for those interested in booking a nyc hotel room, send me your paypal account and I'll ante up the $100. In what alternate universe does one believe that www.hotels.nyc would not require a massive marketing budget itself? It's not as if competition in that field isn't already plentiful and fierce.
"Intuitive" is in the eye of the beholder, and highly subjective.
What about the billion?
On the other hand, if the 400 year old entity that thinks of itself as New York City (with 1/10th of 1% of the worlds population living on 2/100,000ths of its surface) can get its act together and develop a few dozen of these tourist names and present them to a global audience, at the same time a .berlin and .paris are doing so, I bet the marketing $s will be substantially less.
I guess much depends upon who's money you're betting with.
Sad truth.
(And somehow I suspect there are other cities with even greater populations and/or densities who do not share this need for a TLD. It's important to avoid "we _deserve_ this" mode.)
I don't recall saying that "we deserve this," but we do. Also, I'm unclear what you mean by the "other cities" comment. If you mean that some cities may not want or need a TLD, that might be quite true. I can speak with a reasonable amount of certainty for the apparent needs of New York City.
P.S. "But this urgent need ..." City TLDs are not urgent, any more than consuming particular vitamins or minerals are to our diet. But long term, the vitamin companies say, they help. However, if you're into a competition and your competitors are taking vitamins and minerals and other supplements (think .uk, .hk. .sg, and perhaps soon .berlin and .paris) you'd better be thinking hard about sticking that needle in your ass. Change "vitamins and minerals" to "steroids" and re-ask. Simply because others in the field are doing something dumb or wrong -- or even just ill-advised -- is not an excuse to follow suit.
It is absolutely necessary to nail down the dirty details and find out who will pony up and what the rules will be, before spending money that might be better injected directly into the education programs you speak of. Civic pride alone won't -- can't -- make this fly.
Good advice. We're waiting on the ICANN for the RFP and some clue to those details. As to the education programs, they are predicated on the existence of the .nyc TLD and consist of education on using civic tools in civic spaces, with these "civic spaces" being .nyc domain names. So without .nyc, we're extinguished.
And, if service to the Internet-using public outside NYC is at all a concern of this effort, consider having major policies harmonized between the existing applicants (.berlin and .paris) in possible anticipation of a (official or informal) CityNSO. Otherwise I have a hard time supporting it as a pure matter of At-Large public interest. If there are major differences between the different city TLD implementations, the intuition factor you speak of will be a myth at best.
A CityNSO sounds like a natural, should ICANN's RFP prove reasonable and demand for city TLDs exist.
- Evan
Thanks for the thoughts. Tom
On whether city TLDs will succeed or are needed, I trust the markets to make that decision. Any proponent of a new gTLD has a significant upfront investment to make-- in the millions -- and I presume they all do their market research before launching to know whether they have a reasonable chance to make a return on that investment. ICANN should have a plan for "retiring" failed TLDs, along the lines of what it has done with some ccTLDs, and then let qualified applicants see what they can do. I can understand why a registrant might prefer nameofmyhotel.nyc over nameofmyhotel.travel, but I share some of the skeptism expressed by others about the willingness of commercial enterprises who already have a .COM name to re-brand themselves under something else. Then again, I once thought that buying <commonword>.com was a waste of $35, that a portal was stupid business (Yahoo!), and that Google was *way* overpriced at its IPO....so what do I know? -- Bret
NA, Apologies for this going out th NA multiple times. I used a bulk mailer (email marketing pro) to help manage the send and it apparently has a mind of its own. While this is seemingly the identical email I sent on 2-28, it arrived fresh today 3-3. I'm puzzled. I've not touched the mailer since the 29th, so...??? If anyone has familiarity or a suggestion, please let me know. Sorry, Tom Lowenhaupt toml@communisphere.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Thomas Lowenhaupt To: na-discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 2:53 AM Subject: [NA-Discuss] Help create the .nyc Internet space for New York andNew Yorkers Top level domains (TLDs) like .com, .org, .edu, and .gov are crucial markers in our online world, but there are not enough of them to distinguish the various ways in which we interact on the web. One of the clearest, most pressing requirements is for TLDs that serve the needs of cities. To that end, in April 2007, the not-for-profit Connecting.nyc Inc. was created to prepare an Internet space for New York City's networked future through advocacy, research, and education. Step one is to acquire the .nyc TLD. That opportunity should arise within the next year with the path detailed in our Acquisition Campaign. It’s a difficult but doable task. The far more challenging task is to develop .nyc as an organizing force to empower New York City's residents, institutions, and businesses to better connect with one another and the world. This becomes ever more important as other cities (.berlin and .paris) acquire TLDs, with the city’s growing invisibility in an Internet dominated by the .com TLD, and with our “findability” increasingly dependent on the interests of search engine operators. To be the master of its future, New York City needs its own space on the Internet. Over the past year we’ve developed several resources to support our acquisition and development campaigns. I’ve had the privilege of working with Dr. Michael Gurstein on a white paper illuminating the public interest benefits of city-TLDs, and our community wiki and blog provide New Yorkers with the opportunity to connect with our effort and help shape their city's future. Links here connect to several of the wiki's pages. With the .nyc TLD a vital civic resource, we urge public participation in our planning processes and invite you to explore and add your thoughts to the wiki. Key wiki pages include those for our Governance, Community and Justice Goals, and a FAQ. You can help in several other ways: make a financial or equipment contribution (we need a projector yesterday!), or by emailing your ideas, questions, and suggestions to me. This Sunday (March 2) you can join us in imagining New York City's Internet space at the Grassroots Media Conference at Hunter College. I’ll be making a presentation entitled “A Platform for Community Media.” [NOTE: Connecting.nyc Inc. is a New York State not-for-profit corporation that is registered with the New York State Charities Bureau and has submitted application for the IRS's 501(c)(3) tax exemption approval.] Thank you for your attention. Tom Lowenhaupt Tom Lowenhaupt, Founder and Acting Director Connecting.nyc Inc Web -- Wiki -- Blog Box 1027, Jackson Hts., NYC TomL@communisphere.com 718 639 4222 ABOUT THIS MAILING. This is the kickoff mailing for the .nyc Campaign. I’m sending this message to the 1,546 people in my Outlook Express address book, people I’ve contacted on this and other matters over the past 14 years. Many of these names are now unfamiliar to me and I’m certain some recipients will be scratching their heads wondering who I am and what possible relationship or interest they have in a .nyc TLD. To those people I send my apology and commitment to remove your name from future .nyc mailings. Or let me know if I should remove you from my address book, period. REMOVE ME. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ NA-Discuss mailing list NA-Discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org http://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/na-discuss_atlarge-lists.ica... Visit the NA-RALO Wiki at https://st.icann.org/naralo/ ------
Apologies for this going out th NA multiple times. I used a bulk mailer (email marketing pro) to help manage the send
I suspect I'm not the only one who finds it phenomenally inappropriate to send "bulk mail" to any ICANN lists. Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Information Superhighwayman wanna-be, http://www.johnlevine.com, ex-Mayor "More Wiener schnitzel, please", said Tom, revealingly.
participants (4)
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Bret Fausett -
Evan Leibovitch -
John Levine -
Thomas Lowenhaupt