Dear Christian, While I sat on Atlas II eating my nails because of the useless discussions in my RALO (and I sat next to Alejandro in the somber cellar of a very strange London building in the middle of the summer instead of taking a vacation as the present chair of LACRALO seems to suggest) and maybe because Costa Rica won against Italy in the World Cup in the second round (England had already left the party) I remember London's Summer of 2014 fondly and I don't share many of your somber perspectives for this next ATLAS meeting: As far as ICANN is concerned, it has made more room for ALAC than ever before. ALAC is a full member of the empowered community with all responsibilities that go with it. ALAC has been invited to Co-Chair a PDP in the issue of geographic names, which for some of represent an opportunity to defend cultural, linguistic and other important issues for internet users (the fact that Governments and ccTLDs don'r want to give up their prerogatives is another issue). ALAC got direct representation in the ePDP on so far the most important issue for all internet users: personal data privacy. ALAC seems to be reacting in the right direction by consolidating its policy work in one single group, that is testing the possibility of a clear and prioritized policy agenda. It is true that ALAC seems less attractive for the younger generation of fellows interested in real policy and users, as I believe we have made a better use of their volunteering, brains and ideas in smaller groups directly focused on policy work (disclaimer: I'm now the NPOC Policy Chair and see great interest support from talented young fellows :). As far as the final (non-registrant) user is concerned, it has a nice living at the second level of a few platforms, using randomly assigned IMEI serials for their devices, randomly assigned numbers and SIM cards from the ISP providers and free email accounts from their favorite platforms. And those platforms are selling their personal and usage data, and even the US Government is penalizing them for that (FB Analytica case) ........Now if you really worry about them, I invite you on Saturday in Montreal to hear from one of our young stars in NPOC on his project to create conscience for the final user in the new GDPR framework. He presented this ideas to ALAC in Japan already and the initial echo was really good. it is all about new ideas and un-prejudiced work Now let's talk about ALACs (lack of or new) focus on (which) of the final users! If ALAC can't position the final users issue with the DNS in the right context, addressing many of the structural and operational issues why there is such a large bridge between registrants and passive users nobody will. The DNS is flexible enough to make room for IoT. The DNS is flexible enough to offer its resources for private networks. And it both cases it might be useful even if it does not resolve the addresses in ICANNs servers. So, it is up to US, the ALAC community to focus and see if the DNS can also serve the needs of the final user in terms of privacy and security with the APPROPRIATE intermediaries. Maybe we have not looked for them. Maybe they don't exist yet. But in the same manner Registries and Registrants have blurred their distinction to face the new market conditions, there is ample space for new combinations in the system. Many more people would be interested in participating in ALAC/ATLAS, if we could spend less time in the definition of final users and build those bridges and create this new business models with the young and enthusiastic generation. It is not that difficult for me to look forward positively to ATLAS III to grab for new opportunities (even if I missed the webinars, but will catch up before I get there, as I promised to ALAc's Chair already). I wish you all a nice Sunday! --- Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez carlosraul@gutierrez.se +506 8837 7176 Aparatado 1571-1000 COSTA RICA El 2019-07-14 07:15, Christian de Larrinaga escribió:
Dear Roberto
That is a lovely reply. But you are in a better position to answer your question than I or someone else closer to ICANN today. I hope you don't think I was referring to myself as that 1 person you so accurately fathomed from my inadvertently framed formula obfuscation! ;-)
Although I hugely admire the folk working as At Large for trying to promote a user interest in the ICANN melee. It is not working I fear.
Who funds At Large? How does At Large operate and how do its representatives get funded? Who controls the remit for that funding?
ICANN does as I understand it.
I remember being party to a past President of ICANN exclaim offstage "But we don't do that!" when he asked a friend what to talk about and was advised to mention ICANN's role for Internet users . He went up and talked about the role for Internet users anyway. It was an At Large gathering after all.
As I said before I don't know Atlas or what it is trying to do. I am not against training or knowledge or expertise far from it. But I worry that ICANN has always been rather good at introducing hurdles, hoops and complexity and now it seems qualifications limited by who can participate in gaining them to further erode engagement by Internet users.
That is why I poked my keyboard above the parapet once more to test the waters.
The issue around the Internet user is not theoretical. It is real because in the Internet the user is at the edge of the network and that is where both the intelligence and the decision control surface for connectivity between end points has to lie.
Everything else in the middle is just routing across diverse infrastructures to optimise that connectivity.
Everything done in the technical community should be to assist in optimising that connectivity and broadening the application capacity and capabilities between end points.
So what am I trying to say? Internet was developed by a focus from the bottom to the top or rather from the network edge to the network edge at the other side.
Yet institutionally over the last couple of decades the discussion has excluded the network edge and moved towards intermediaries.
Internet users are not represented in IANA, RIRs or in LIRs - intermediaries are. Internet users are not represented in tld registries nor in registrars. - intermediaries are. Internet users are not represented in ISPs or ISP associations or IXPs - intermediaries are Internet users are not represented in Platforms / application service providers. - no one but the platform owner is. increasingly Internet users are not represented in Standards or Specification recommendations - intermediaries are, as unsurprisingly given my list above they are defining the service design for users rather than users themselves.
Even the development stacks albeit open sourced are largely shovelled out of the doors of the intermediary platforms ready made to bolster and extend their unfair advantage in the "cloud".
For instance the UK Internet Service Provider Association last week voted Mozilla an Internet villain for its promotion of DNS over HTTPS. The public ridicule of that amongst aware users forced a climb down by the end of the week. But that was because of the bad public PR created by the volume of approbium. It was not about detailed process discussion in an intermediary technical policy implementation body like ICANN. No Atlas or at large type process has shown itself effective in knocking such nonsenses back.
Yet in private and behind closed doors will ISPs continue their campaign to stop DoH? Of course. They are drafting Internet drafts now to allow ISPs to negate a user's use of DoH across their networks.
Now how much of this user space can At Large by being an ICANN only body really address?
I don't see the scale required being nearly met by focussing on ICANN. I worry that the concentration of energy and focus on ICANN institutionally is increasingly a distraction that too many good people who can make a difference for Internet users are suckered into.
What is needed is an Internet user focus across the entire stack end to end.
Christian
Roberto Gaetano wrote: Hi Christian, A couple of comments. While I may agree with you that ICAN is by and large insufficient as a forum where the users' voice is represented, I cannot think of another venue where we could have a different situation. If you have an idea, please share it. As a mathematician, I also have some perplexity on your estimates. 99.99999999% of people unaware of ICANN means that only 0.00000001% of the world population, estimated at below 10 billions, is aware. 0.00000001% of the population is barely 1 individual. My question is: "Who is this only individual on earth that believes that ICANN matters?" 😜 Cheers, Roberto
On 12.07.2019, at 14:53, Christian de Larrinaga <cdel@firsthand.net> wrote:
In no way to detract from any point you are making. But this is the first I've heard about ATLAS participation or these ICANN courses. I also have no idea whether this matters in the slightest.
I suspect I am within a mere 99.99999999% of the Internet userbase on that. I would also argue that I am probably much more aware of ICANN than most Internet users.
This leads me to feel that ICANN is not an appropriate venue to represent my interests or views.
C
Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond wrote: Dear Vanda,
thank you - that is exactly what I wanted to say. I'll come clean: in the preparation phase, I pushed for everyone to follow the same courses for two reasons:
1. Making sure that everybody had reached a high enough level of knowledge by the time we get to Montreal, that we do not end up wasting time on explaining how, for example, the GNSO works during the precious time that we will have face to face. I actually think that learning about ICANN this way is a real benefit to end users - it is vital knowledge needed to evolve in this environment. 2. Making sure that other people in the group, the seasoned members of At-Large, knew what level of knowledge everyone was expected to achieve prior to the meeting, so that we do not end up with a discussion in Montréal that involves 15 expert members of the community and the rest not understanding what the heck they are talking about.
Whilst I sympathize with people like Evan who have not been selected, the complaints about the ICANN learn courses being too long and a waste of time and not being bothered to finish them do not have my sympathy. Sorry. I took all of the mandatory courses, and in fact I also took all of the other ones on the ICANN Learn Web site too, in order to find out what was out there. It took me no more than an hour per course on the non mandatory ones, namely because in cases where I knew the topic well I either fast forwarded the video segments, or ran it at a higher speed than the original. I even ended up sending dozens of corrections to fix the courses to ICANN Learn staff. And lo and behold, I actually came across some real nuggets where I learnt something - and this has completed my education, where I can now comment on more topics that I better understand than before, in the public consultation process. And yes, I am really happy that I took the courses, because I enjoy learning more stuff, and I did. So 5 x 1 hour = 5 hours. The Group that had to focus on Capacity Building asked each other: is it reasonable to ask a volunteer to spend 5 hours on a course within the length of 1 month? And the answer was YES. This could be done in chunks of 15 minutes, if wanted. It was really not a real workload. Now I am reading many emails from many people about them not being able to complete the courses in time. Well, there were also the Webinars, as an even easier alternative. I am sorry this has taken out some people, but I would have expected a better and more positive response from seasoned participants. My outlook in life is that I am never confident enough to think that I do not require a refresher course - because the world moves on and I cannot rely solely on my past knowledge.
Kindest regards,
Olivier
On 11/07/2019 21:34, Vanda Scartezini wrote: Being in ICANN for around 20 years and have been using the e-learning courses for long time in capacitation to others, I was one that felt no real need to attend all courses or webinar.
But I did all those, because rules in a worldwide selection are there to be followed, no exception shall be made if there was a selection criteria.
I am sorry not to have well prepared people attending ATLAS III, but I see no point in complain against the rules clearer stated before the beginning of the process.
best to all
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*From: *At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> on behalf of John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> *Date: *Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 15:02 *To: *Humberto Carrasco <hcarrasco@cmsz.cl> *Cc: *'At-Large Worldwide' <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> *Subject: *Re: [At-Large] Fwd: ATLASIII Participation
Indeed
On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 1:01 PM Humberto Carrasco <hcarrasco@cmsz.cl <mailto:hcarrasco@cmsz.cl>> wrote:
Dear John,
Please, do not forget that webinars were an alternative of online courses.
Regards
Enviado desde mi iPhone
El 11-07-2019, a la(s) 13:55, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com <mailto:jlaprise@gmail.com>> escribió:
Hi Evan,
Simply put, it wasn't about you.
The program committee, ALAC and the selection committee agreed that participation in the webinars was a hard requirement. Full stop.
Making exceptions would have opened a can of worms we decided to leave sealed, for better or worse.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D.
On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 12:49 PM Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org <mailto:evan@telly.org>> wrote:
Hi Judith.
Yes, I applied before the deadline. I committed to take the "how does ICANN work" courses but apparently didn't finish them in time. So apparently I have not sufficiently demonstrated that I understand how ALAC operates within ICANN.
(BTW, thouse ICANN learn courses are all aimed at registrants' PoV -- they miss much that is important to end users -- ie, At-Large. But, according to the selection committee, I don't know enough about this kind of thing.)
- Evan
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 at 13:28, Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com <mailto:judith@jhellerstein.com>> wrote:
HI Evan,
Did you apply? I was not on the evaluating team but as I understand it there were very few applications from NARALO
Best,
Judith
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On 7/11/2019 1:19 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
Having been rejected from participating because I would have been such a tourist, I have no comment.
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