Dear Privacy & Proxy subgroup members, I went through the draft report of this subgroup on wiki page (https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=71604717) and step in with my concerns: 1. To the Data Accuracy subgroup, the Whois accuracy of domain names that utilize Privacy and Proxy Services is invisible. And Volker also mentioned that this will be dealt with in the Privacy & Proxy subgroup. As such, I strongly support Susan’s comments on “6 Conducting periodic due diligence checks on customer contact information” and “8 Providing clear and unambiguous guidance on the rights and responsibilities of registered name holders, and how those should be managed in the privacy/proxy environment.” There is no reason for a customer who chose P/P service thus been protected from responsibilities. 2. There is no indication about the legacy domain names that utilize P/P Services before the provider been accredited. Will it be a similar situation as Grandfathered domains? 3. Like the example I gave during the 2nd F2F meeting, if there is not enough regulation and overseeing in place, P/P service is very likely to be abused. To be clear, I elaborated the example in a word document (see attached). Do we really need this kind of fake prosperity of domain industry? A response from this subgroup is much appreciated. Thanks, Lili *************************************************************************************************** This message, and any attachment contained, are confidential and subject of legal privilege. It may be used solely for the designated police/justice purpose and by the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. The information is not to be disseminated to another agency or third party without the author’s consent, and must not be retained longer than is necessary for the fulfilment of the purpose for which the information is to be used. All practicable steps shall be taken by the recipients to ensure that information is protected against unauthorised access or processing. INTERPOL reserves the right to enquire about the use of the information provided. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this message in error. In such a case, you should not print it, copy it, make any use of it or disclose it, but please notify us immediately and delete the message from any computer. *************************************************************************************************
Hi Lili, thank you for your comments. 1) The question of reliability levels of data behind a privacy shield is very hard to measure, as no mechanism exists to properly conduct a study without violating the terms of the service. Possibly, an indication of reliability levels could be obtained from UDRP providers as they regularly deal with cases where the privacy service removes itself on the occurrence of a complaint, and therefore might have data on the reliability of the revealed data, however even then this sample would be skewed as most domains using whois privacy services are unlikely to be targets in a UDRP. 2) We assume that will be the case as touching all those existing customers is a near impossible task. 3) I reviewed your document, but I disagree with the assumptions therein. There was no indication or evidence of illegal use that I could determine. Porn and gambling, while distasteful are not necessarily illegal. So someone used a privacy service and registered a bunch of domains to serve such content to China. So what? Also, the fact that the redirect changed after a short while may point to the domains being parked with the incoming traffic being sold to the highest bidder, who at the time may have been a provider of such services. I can see no abuse of a privacy service here. Volker Am 03.06.2018 um 05:21 schrieb SUN Lili:
Dear Privacy & Proxy subgroup members,
I went through the draft report of this subgroup on wiki page (https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=71604717) and step in with my concerns:
1.To the Data Accuracy subgroup, the Whois accuracy of domain names that utilize Privacy and Proxy Services is invisible. And Volker also mentioned that this will be dealt with in the Privacy & Proxy subgroup. As such, I strongly support Susan’s comments on “6 Conducting periodic due diligence checks on customer contact information” and “8 Providing clear and unambiguous guidance on the rights and responsibilities of registered name holders, and how those should be managed in the privacy/proxy environment.” There is no reason for a customer who chose P/P service thus been protected from responsibilities.
2.There is no indication about the legacy domain names that utilize P/P Services before the provider been accredited. Will it be a similar situation as Grandfathered domains?
3.Like the example I gave during the 2^nd F2F meeting, if there is not enough regulation and overseeing in place, P/P service is very likely to be abused. To be clear, I elaborated the example in a word document (see attached). Do we really need this kind of fake prosperity of domain industry?
A response from this subgroup is much appreciated.
Thanks,
Lili
*************************************************************************************************** This message, and any attachment contained, are confidential and subject of legal privilege. It may be used solely for the designated police/justice purpose and by the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. The information is not to be disseminated to another agency or third party without the author’s consent, and must not be retained longer than is necessary for the fulfilment of the purpose for which the information is to be used. All practicable steps shall be taken by the recipients to ensure that information is protected against unauthorised access or processing. INTERPOL reserves the right to enquire about the use of the information provided. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this message in error. In such a case, you should not print it, copy it, make any use of it or disclose it, but please notify us immediately and delete the message from any computer. *************************************************************************************************
_______________________________________________ RDS-WHOIS2-RT mailing list RDS-WHOIS2-RT@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rds-whois2-rt
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
Hi Volker, Thank you for your response. For 1), if it is very hard to measure, then we should point it out, for the common sense is that the reliable information is there, just being protected from public access. LEAs are required court order issued by competent authority to have access to the information according to current PPSAI framework. For 2), my concern is how many years will it take to digest the legacy. For 3), my case study is only one example among many. Based on the business model, the content hosted could be anything, phishing, malware distributing, etc. Even the content is relating to porn or gambling, it is defined as illegal according to Chinese legislation. It’s Chinese authorities responsibility to take them down if there are victims of China. Regards, Lili From: RDS-WHOIS2-RT [mailto:rds-whois2-rt-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 7:31 PM To: rds-whois2-rt@icann.org Subject: Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services Hi Lili, thank you for your comments. 1) The question of reliability levels of data behind a privacy shield is very hard to measure, as no mechanism exists to properly conduct a study without violating the terms of the service. Possibly, an indication of reliability levels could be obtained from UDRP providers as they regularly deal with cases where the privacy service removes itself on the occurrence of a complaint, and therefore might have data on the reliability of the revealed data, however even then this sample would be skewed as most domains using whois privacy services are unlikely to be targets in a UDRP. 2) We assume that will be the case as touching all those existing customers is a near impossible task. 3) I reviewed your document, but I disagree with the assumptions therein. There was no indication or evidence of illegal use that I could determine. Porn and gambling, while distasteful are not necessarily illegal. So someone used a privacy service and registered a bunch of domains to serve such content to China. So what? Also, the fact that the redirect changed after a short while may point to the domains being parked with the incoming traffic being sold to the highest bidder, who at the time may have been a provider of such services. I can see no abuse of a privacy service here. Volker Am 03.06.2018 um 05:21 schrieb SUN Lili: Dear Privacy & Proxy subgroup members, I went through the draft report of this subgroup on wiki page (https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=71604717) and step in with my concerns: 1. To the Data Accuracy subgroup, the Whois accuracy of domain names that utilize Privacy and Proxy Services is invisible. And Volker also mentioned that this will be dealt with in the Privacy & Proxy subgroup. As such, I strongly support Susan’s comments on “6 Conducting periodic due diligence checks on customer contact information” and “8 Providing clear and unambiguous guidance on the rights and responsibilities of registered name holders, and how those should be managed in the privacy/proxy environment.” There is no reason for a customer who chose P/P service thus been protected from responsibilities. 2. There is no indication about the legacy domain names that utilize P/P Services before the provider been accredited. Will it be a similar situation as Grandfathered domains? 3. Like the example I gave during the 2nd F2F meeting, if there is not enough regulation and overseeing in place, P/P service is very likely to be abused. To be clear, I elaborated the example in a word document (see attached). Do we really need this kind of fake prosperity of domain industry? A response from this subgroup is much appreciated. Thanks, Lili *************************************************************************************************** This message, and any attachment contained, are confidential and subject of legal privilege. It may be used solely for the designated police/justice purpose and by the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. The information is not to be disseminated to another agency or third party without the author’s consent, and must not be retained longer than is necessary for the fulfilment of the purpose for which the information is to be used. All practicable steps shall be taken by the recipients to ensure that information is protected against unauthorised access or processing. INTERPOL reserves the right to enquire about the use of the information provided. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this message in error. In such a case, you should not print it, copy it, make any use of it or disclose it, but please notify us immediately and delete the message from any computer. ************************************************************************************************* _______________________________________________ RDS-WHOIS2-RT mailing list RDS-WHOIS2-RT@icann.org<mailto:RDS-WHOIS2-RT@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rds-whois2-rt -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
Hi Lili, 1) I have no issue with noting that while the contactibility levels of privacy protected data (or of data redacted due to GDPR, for that matter) is difficult to measure, the obligation of privacy service providers to validate certain data fields and to verify one other field in the same manner as required by registrars adequately ensures sufficient contactibility is maintained, provided there obligations are adhered to, which we should expect. 2) The legacy should be of little concern. This has been debated at length in the RAA 2013 negotiations and in other fora, but the gist of the matter is that abuse is more of an issue with newer domains, most of which are now registered under the 2013 RAA, whereas the domain names registered before that time have a significantly reduced risk of being registered for abusive purposes. And even if there is an issue, the registrant can now also be contacted by the registrar abuse contact which was also introduced through the 2013 RAA as an additional means to enable third parties to contact the registrant by means of the registrar. So even if it takes until the sun dies to digest the legacy, this should be a mnor issue. 3) This is an issue with extraterritoriality and the application and enforcement of national laws across borders. Good luck to Chinese authorities in enforcing their laws against foreign nationals that are not breaking their local laws and who will likely never come to China. I thought that is what your great cyberwall was for? ICANN has no role to play in this issue. Best, Volker Am 05.06.2018 um 16:27 schrieb SUN Lili:
Hi Volker,
Thank you for your response.
For 1), if it is very hard to measure, then we should point it out, for the common sense is that the reliable information is there, just being protected from public access. LEAs are required court order issued by competent authority to have access to the information according to current PPSAI framework.
For 2), my concern is how many years will it take to digest the legacy.
For 3), my case study is only one example among many. Based on the business model, the content hosted could be anything, phishing, malware distributing, etc. Even the content is relating to porn or gambling, it is defined as illegal according to Chinese legislation. It’s Chinese authorities responsibility to take them down if there are victims of China.
Regards,
Lili
*From:*RDS-WHOIS2-RT [mailto:rds-whois2-rt-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Volker Greimann *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 7:31 PM *To:* rds-whois2-rt@icann.org *Subject:* Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services
Hi Lili,
thank you for your comments.
1) The question of reliability levels of data behind a privacy shield is very hard to measure, as no mechanism exists to properly conduct a study without violating the terms of the service. Possibly, an indication of reliability levels could be obtained from UDRP providers as they regularly deal with cases where the privacy service removes itself on the occurrence of a complaint, and therefore might have data on the reliability of the revealed data, however even then this sample would be skewed as most domains using whois privacy services are unlikely to be targets in a UDRP.
2) We assume that will be the case as touching all those existing customers is a near impossible task.
3) I reviewed your document, but I disagree with the assumptions therein. There was no indication or evidence of illegal use that I could determine. Porn and gambling, while distasteful are not necessarily illegal. So someone used a privacy service and registered a bunch of domains to serve such content to China. So what? Also, the fact that the redirect changed after a short while may point to the domains being parked with the incoming traffic being sold to the highest bidder, who at the time may have been a provider of such services.
I can see no abuse of a privacy service here.
Volker
Am 03.06.2018 um 05:21 schrieb SUN Lili:
Dear Privacy & Proxy subgroup members,
I went through the draft report of this subgroup on wiki page (https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=71604717) and step in with my concerns:
1.To the Data Accuracy subgroup, the Whois accuracy of domain names that utilize Privacy and Proxy Services is invisible. And Volker also mentioned that this will be dealt with in the Privacy & Proxy subgroup. As such, I strongly support Susan’s comments on “6 Conducting periodic due diligence checks on customer contact information” and “8 Providing clear and unambiguous guidance on the rights and responsibilities of registered name holders, and how those should be managed in the privacy/proxy environment.” There is no reason for a customer who chose P/P service thus been protected from responsibilities.
2.There is no indication about the legacy domain names that utilize P/P Services before the provider been accredited. Will it be a similar situation as Grandfathered domains?
3.Like the example I gave during the 2^nd F2F meeting, if there is not enough regulation and overseeing in place, P/P service is very likely to be abused. To be clear, I elaborated the example in a word document (see attached). Do we really need this kind of fake prosperity of domain industry?
A response from this subgroup is much appreciated.
Thanks,
Lili
*************************************************************************************************** This message, and any attachment contained, are confidential and subject of legal privilege. It may be used solely for the designated police/justice purpose and by the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. The information is not to be disseminated to another agency or third party without the author’s consent, and must not be retained longer than is necessary for the fulfilment of the purpose for which the information is to be used. All practicable steps shall be taken by the recipients to ensure that information is protected against unauthorised access or processing. INTERPOL reserves the right to enquire about the use of the information provided. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this message in error. In such a case, you should not print it, copy it, make any use of it or disclose it, but please notify us immediately and delete the message from any computer. *************************************************************************************************
_______________________________________________
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-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
Hi Volker, I really don’t want to have such communication in the future. 2) from my perspective, it is also an assumption. 3) I’d suggest you to comment on something you have knowledge or really work on. How do you know the modus operandi behind the scene? And what’s your rational for such guess? As long as there is a loophole, the criminals will grasp it and exploit it. No state would be the lucky one. Bulletproof hosting service is not new anymore, I’m here talking P/P service could be abused as such service. Lili From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] Sent: Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 10:41 PM To: SUN Lili <L.SUN@interpol.int> Cc: rds-whois2-rt@icann.org Subject: Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services Hi Lili, 1) I have no issue with noting that while the contactibility levels of privacy protected data (or of data redacted due to GDPR, for that matter) is difficult to measure, the obligation of privacy service providers to validate certain data fields and to verify one other field in the same manner as required by registrars adequately ensures sufficient contactibility is maintained, provided there obligations are adhered to, which we should expect. 2) The legacy should be of little concern. This has been debated at length in the RAA 2013 negotiations and in other fora, but the gist of the matter is that abuse is more of an issue with newer domains, most of which are now registered under the 2013 RAA, whereas the domain names registered before that time have a significantly reduced risk of being registered for abusive purposes. And even if there is an issue, the registrant can now also be contacted by the registrar abuse contact which was also introduced through the 2013 RAA as an additional means to enable third parties to contact the registrant by means of the registrar. So even if it takes until the sun dies to digest the legacy, this should be a mnor issue. 3) This is an issue with extraterritoriality and the application and enforcement of national laws across borders. Good luck to Chinese authorities in enforcing their laws against foreign nationals that are not breaking their local laws and who will likely never come to China. I thought that is what your great cyberwall was for? ICANN has no role to play in this issue. Best, Volker Am 05.06.2018 um 16:27 schrieb SUN Lili: Hi Volker, Thank you for your response. For 1), if it is very hard to measure, then we should point it out, for the common sense is that the reliable information is there, just being protected from public access. LEAs are required court order issued by competent authority to have access to the information according to current PPSAI framework. For 2), my concern is how many years will it take to digest the legacy. For 3), my case study is only one example among many. Based on the business model, the content hosted could be anything, phishing, malware distributing, etc. Even the content is relating to porn or gambling, it is defined as illegal according to Chinese legislation. It’s Chinese authorities responsibility to take them down if there are victims of China. Regards, Lili From: RDS-WHOIS2-RT [mailto:rds-whois2-rt-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 7:31 PM To: rds-whois2-rt@icann.org<mailto:rds-whois2-rt@icann.org> Subject: Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services Hi Lili, thank you for your comments. 1) The question of reliability levels of data behind a privacy shield is very hard to measure, as no mechanism exists to properly conduct a study without violating the terms of the service. Possibly, an indication of reliability levels could be obtained from UDRP providers as they regularly deal with cases where the privacy service removes itself on the occurrence of a complaint, and therefore might have data on the reliability of the revealed data, however even then this sample would be skewed as most domains using whois privacy services are unlikely to be targets in a UDRP. 2) We assume that will be the case as touching all those existing customers is a near impossible task. 3) I reviewed your document, but I disagree with the assumptions therein. There was no indication or evidence of illegal use that I could determine. Porn and gambling, while distasteful are not necessarily illegal. So someone used a privacy service and registered a bunch of domains to serve such content to China. So what? Also, the fact that the redirect changed after a short while may point to the domains being parked with the incoming traffic being sold to the highest bidder, who at the time may have been a provider of such services. I can see no abuse of a privacy service here. Volker Am 03.06.2018 um 05:21 schrieb SUN Lili: Dear Privacy & Proxy subgroup members, I went through the draft report of this subgroup on wiki page (https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=71604717) and step in with my concerns: 1. To the Data Accuracy subgroup, the Whois accuracy of domain names that utilize Privacy and Proxy Services is invisible. And Volker also mentioned that this will be dealt with in the Privacy & Proxy subgroup. As such, I strongly support Susan’s comments on “6 Conducting periodic due diligence checks on customer contact information” and “8 Providing clear and unambiguous guidance on the rights and responsibilities of registered name holders, and how those should be managed in the privacy/proxy environment.” There is no reason for a customer who chose P/P service thus been protected from responsibilities. 2. There is no indication about the legacy domain names that utilize P/P Services before the provider been accredited. Will it be a similar situation as Grandfathered domains? 3. Like the example I gave during the 2nd F2F meeting, if there is not enough regulation and overseeing in place, P/P service is very likely to be abused. To be clear, I elaborated the example in a word document (see attached). Do we really need this kind of fake prosperity of domain industry? A response from this subgroup is much appreciated. Thanks, Lili *************************************************************************************************** This message, and any attachment contained, are confidential and subject of legal privilege. It may be used solely for the designated police/justice purpose and by the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. The information is not to be disseminated to another agency or third party without the author’s consent, and must not be retained longer than is necessary for the fulfilment of the purpose for which the information is to be used. All practicable steps shall be taken by the recipients to ensure that information is protected against unauthorised access or processing. INTERPOL reserves the right to enquire about the use of the information provided. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this message in error. In such a case, you should not print it, copy it, make any use of it or disclose it, but please notify us immediately and delete the message from any computer. ************************************************************************************************* _______________________________________________ RDS-WHOIS2-RT mailing list RDS-WHOIS2-RT@icann.org<mailto:RDS-WHOIS2-RT@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rds-whois2-rt -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
Hi Lili, I would prefer a more reasonable approach as well. 2) it was a conscious decision that was made at the time by the parties involved in the negotiations and that was (and still is) supported by the members of the review team that I talked to. Further, asking contracted parties to reach out to registrants that they have little to no contact with over the years other than receiving payment once a year is a recipe for disaster and disenfranchisement of the registrants of these legacy domains. The only viable way to implement improvement of contactibility is included in the RAA and the upcoming privacy proxy accreditation agreement. 3) As I said, it is an issue, but not one ICANN can or should solve. This is one for the governments. Privacy services are also and will be even less in the future anything but bulletproof, as there are defined processes to obtain the data for legitimate requestors. And hosting services are outside the scope of ICANN anyway. Volker Am 05.06.2018 um 17:05 schrieb SUN Lili:
Hi Volker,
I really don’t want to have such communication in the future.
2) from my perspective, it is also an assumption.
3) I’d suggest you to comment on something you have knowledge or really work on. How do you know the modus operandi behind the scene? And what’s your rational for such guess? As long as there is a loophole, the criminals will grasp it and exploit it. No state would be the lucky one. Bulletproof hosting service is not new anymore, I’m here talking P/P service could be abused as such service.
Lili
*From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 10:41 PM *To:* SUN Lili <L.SUN@interpol.int> *Cc:* rds-whois2-rt@icann.org *Subject:* Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services
Hi Lili,
1) I have no issue with noting that while the contactibility levels of privacy protected data (or of data redacted due to GDPR, for that matter) is difficult to measure, the obligation of privacy service providers to validate certain data fields and to verify one other field in the same manner as required by registrars adequately ensures sufficient contactibility is maintained, provided there obligations are adhered to, which we should expect.
2) The legacy should be of little concern. This has been debated at length in the RAA 2013 negotiations and in other fora, but the gist of the matter is that abuse is more of an issue with newer domains, most of which are now registered under the 2013 RAA, whereas the domain names registered before that time have a significantly reduced risk of being registered for abusive purposes. And even if there is an issue, the registrant can now also be contacted by the registrar abuse contact which was also introduced through the 2013 RAA as an additional means to enable third parties to contact the registrant by means of the registrar. So even if it takes until the sun dies to digest the legacy, this should be a mnor issue.
3) This is an issue with extraterritoriality and the application and enforcement of national laws across borders. Good luck to Chinese authorities in enforcing their laws against foreign nationals that are not breaking their local laws and who will likely never come to China. I thought that is what your great cyberwall was for? ICANN has no role to play in this issue.
Best,
Volker
Am 05.06.2018 um 16:27 schrieb SUN Lili:
Hi Volker,
Thank you for your response.
For 1), if it is very hard to measure, then we should point it out, for the common sense is that the reliable information is there, just being protected from public access. LEAs are required court order issued by competent authority to have access to the information according to current PPSAI framework.
For 2), my concern is how many years will it take to digest the legacy.
For 3), my case study is only one example among many. Based on the business model, the content hosted could be anything, phishing, malware distributing, etc. Even the content is relating to porn or gambling, it is defined as illegal according to Chinese legislation. It’s Chinese authorities responsibility to take them down if there are victims of China.
Regards,
Lili
*From:*RDS-WHOIS2-RT [mailto:rds-whois2-rt-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Volker Greimann *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 7:31 PM *To:* rds-whois2-rt@icann.org <mailto:rds-whois2-rt@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services
Hi Lili,
thank you for your comments.
1) The question of reliability levels of data behind a privacy shield is very hard to measure, as no mechanism exists to properly conduct a study without violating the terms of the service. Possibly, an indication of reliability levels could be obtained from UDRP providers as they regularly deal with cases where the privacy service removes itself on the occurrence of a complaint, and therefore might have data on the reliability of the revealed data, however even then this sample would be skewed as most domains using whois privacy services are unlikely to be targets in a UDRP.
2) We assume that will be the case as touching all those existing customers is a near impossible task.
3) I reviewed your document, but I disagree with the assumptions therein. There was no indication or evidence of illegal use that I could determine. Porn and gambling, while distasteful are not necessarily illegal. So someone used a privacy service and registered a bunch of domains to serve such content to China. So what? Also, the fact that the redirect changed after a short while may point to the domains being parked with the incoming traffic being sold to the highest bidder, who at the time may have been a provider of such services.
I can see no abuse of a privacy service here.
Volker
Am 03.06.2018 um 05:21 schrieb SUN Lili:
Dear Privacy & Proxy subgroup members,
I went through the draft report of this subgroup on wiki page (https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=71604717) and step in with my concerns:
1.To the Data Accuracy subgroup, the Whois accuracy of domain names that utilize Privacy and Proxy Services is invisible. And Volker also mentioned that this will be dealt with in the Privacy & Proxy subgroup. As such, I strongly support Susan’s comments on “6 Conducting periodic due diligence checks on customer contact information” and “8 Providing clear and unambiguous guidance on the rights and responsibilities of registered name holders, and how those should be managed in the privacy/proxy environment.” There is no reason for a customer who chose P/P service thus been protected from responsibilities.
2.There is no indication about the legacy domain names that utilize P/P Services before the provider been accredited. Will it be a similar situation as Grandfathered domains?
3.Like the example I gave during the 2^nd F2F meeting, if there is not enough regulation and overseeing in place, P/P service is very likely to be abused. To be clear, I elaborated the example in a word document (see attached). Do we really need this kind of fake prosperity of domain industry?
A response from this subgroup is much appreciated.
Thanks,
Lili
*************************************************************************************************** This message, and any attachment contained, are confidential and subject of legal privilege. It may be used solely for the designated police/justice purpose and by the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. The information is not to be disseminated to another agency or third party without the author’s consent, and must not be retained longer than is necessary for the fulfilment of the purpose for which the information is to be used. All practicable steps shall be taken by the recipients to ensure that information is protected against unauthorised access or processing. INTERPOL reserves the right to enquire about the use of the information provided. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this message in error. In such a case, you should not print it, copy it, make any use of it or disclose it, but please notify us immediately and delete the message from any computer. *************************************************************************************************
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--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
Hi Volker, I still have reservations about this. One of the mandates of ICANN is to maintain the Security, Stability and Resiliency of DNS, and DNS abuse mitigation is the main target of SSR team within ICANN. Once a new policy or service is launched, enough safeguards should be in place. The initial intention of P/P service is for personal information protection, the necessity of P/P service in post-GDPR implementation era need to be reviewed in my opinion. For RT’s consideration. Regards, Lili From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] Sent: Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 11:21 PM To: SUN Lili <L.SUN@interpol.int> Cc: rds-whois2-rt@icann.org Subject: Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services Hi Lili, I would prefer a more reasonable approach as well. 2) it was a conscious decision that was made at the time by the parties involved in the negotiations and that was (and still is) supported by the members of the review team that I talked to. Further, asking contracted parties to reach out to registrants that they have little to no contact with over the years other than receiving payment once a year is a recipe for disaster and disenfranchisement of the registrants of these legacy domains. The only viable way to implement improvement of contactibility is included in the RAA and the upcoming privacy proxy accreditation agreement. 3) As I said, it is an issue, but not one ICANN can or should solve. This is one for the governments. Privacy services are also and will be even less in the future anything but bulletproof, as there are defined processes to obtain the data for legitimate requestors. And hosting services are outside the scope of ICANN anyway. Volker Am 05.06.2018 um 17:05 schrieb SUN Lili: Hi Volker, I really don’t want to have such communication in the future. 2) from my perspective, it is also an assumption. 3) I’d suggest you to comment on something you have knowledge or really work on. How do you know the modus operandi behind the scene? And what’s your rational for such guess? As long as there is a loophole, the criminals will grasp it and exploit it. No state would be the lucky one. Bulletproof hosting service is not new anymore, I’m here talking P/P service could be abused as such service. Lili From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] Sent: Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 10:41 PM To: SUN Lili <L.SUN@interpol.int><mailto:L.SUN@interpol.int> Cc: rds-whois2-rt@icann.org<mailto:rds-whois2-rt@icann.org> Subject: Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services Hi Lili, 1) I have no issue with noting that while the contactibility levels of privacy protected data (or of data redacted due to GDPR, for that matter) is difficult to measure, the obligation of privacy service providers to validate certain data fields and to verify one other field in the same manner as required by registrars adequately ensures sufficient contactibility is maintained, provided there obligations are adhered to, which we should expect. 2) The legacy should be of little concern. This has been debated at length in the RAA 2013 negotiations and in other fora, but the gist of the matter is that abuse is more of an issue with newer domains, most of which are now registered under the 2013 RAA, whereas the domain names registered before that time have a significantly reduced risk of being registered for abusive purposes. And even if there is an issue, the registrant can now also be contacted by the registrar abuse contact which was also introduced through the 2013 RAA as an additional means to enable third parties to contact the registrant by means of the registrar. So even if it takes until the sun dies to digest the legacy, this should be a mnor issue. 3) This is an issue with extraterritoriality and the application and enforcement of national laws across borders. Good luck to Chinese authorities in enforcing their laws against foreign nationals that are not breaking their local laws and who will likely never come to China. I thought that is what your great cyberwall was for? ICANN has no role to play in this issue. Best, Volker Am 05.06.2018 um 16:27 schrieb SUN Lili: Hi Volker, Thank you for your response. For 1), if it is very hard to measure, then we should point it out, for the common sense is that the reliable information is there, just being protected from public access. LEAs are required court order issued by competent authority to have access to the information according to current PPSAI framework. For 2), my concern is how many years will it take to digest the legacy. For 3), my case study is only one example among many. Based on the business model, the content hosted could be anything, phishing, malware distributing, etc. Even the content is relating to porn or gambling, it is defined as illegal according to Chinese legislation. It’s Chinese authorities responsibility to take them down if there are victims of China. Regards, Lili From: RDS-WHOIS2-RT [mailto:rds-whois2-rt-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 7:31 PM To: rds-whois2-rt@icann.org<mailto:rds-whois2-rt@icann.org> Subject: Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services Hi Lili, thank you for your comments. 1) The question of reliability levels of data behind a privacy shield is very hard to measure, as no mechanism exists to properly conduct a study without violating the terms of the service. Possibly, an indication of reliability levels could be obtained from UDRP providers as they regularly deal with cases where the privacy service removes itself on the occurrence of a complaint, and therefore might have data on the reliability of the revealed data, however even then this sample would be skewed as most domains using whois privacy services are unlikely to be targets in a UDRP. 2) We assume that will be the case as touching all those existing customers is a near impossible task. 3) I reviewed your document, but I disagree with the assumptions therein. There was no indication or evidence of illegal use that I could determine. Porn and gambling, while distasteful are not necessarily illegal. So someone used a privacy service and registered a bunch of domains to serve such content to China. So what? Also, the fact that the redirect changed after a short while may point to the domains being parked with the incoming traffic being sold to the highest bidder, who at the time may have been a provider of such services. I can see no abuse of a privacy service here. Volker Am 03.06.2018 um 05:21 schrieb SUN Lili: Dear Privacy & Proxy subgroup members, I went through the draft report of this subgroup on wiki page (https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=71604717) and step in with my concerns: 1. To the Data Accuracy subgroup, the Whois accuracy of domain names that utilize Privacy and Proxy Services is invisible. And Volker also mentioned that this will be dealt with in the Privacy & Proxy subgroup. As such, I strongly support Susan’s comments on “6 Conducting periodic due diligence checks on customer contact information” and “8 Providing clear and unambiguous guidance on the rights and responsibilities of registered name holders, and how those should be managed in the privacy/proxy environment.” There is no reason for a customer who chose P/P service thus been protected from responsibilities. 2. There is no indication about the legacy domain names that utilize P/P Services before the provider been accredited. Will it be a similar situation as Grandfathered domains? 3. Like the example I gave during the 2nd F2F meeting, if there is not enough regulation and overseeing in place, P/P service is very likely to be abused. To be clear, I elaborated the example in a word document (see attached). Do we really need this kind of fake prosperity of domain industry? A response from this subgroup is much appreciated. Thanks, Lili *************************************************************************************************** This message, and any attachment contained, are confidential and subject of legal privilege. It may be used solely for the designated police/justice purpose and by the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. The information is not to be disseminated to another agency or third party without the author’s consent, and must not be retained longer than is necessary for the fulfilment of the purpose for which the information is to be used. All practicable steps shall be taken by the recipients to ensure that information is protected against unauthorised access or processing. INTERPOL reserves the right to enquire about the use of the information provided. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this message in error. 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Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
You are correct in that SSR of the DNS are the main target of the SSR team - not ours. I also tend to agree that many aspects of privacy services are rendered superfluous by GDPR and other privacy protection regulations, but the community has decided that the PPSAI work should be completed and implemented regardless. It is not our place to question community policy decisions that have been accepted by community consensus, passed by the GNSO council and the board and now in the final stages of implementation. Volker Am 06.06.2018 um 05:51 schrieb SUN Lili:
Hi Volker,
I still have reservations about this.
One of the mandates of ICANN is to maintain the Security, Stability and Resiliency of DNS, and DNS abuse mitigation is the main target of SSR team within ICANN. Once a new policy or service is launched, enough safeguards should be in place.
The initial intention of P/P service is for personal information protection, the necessity of P/P service in post-GDPR implementation era need to be reviewed in my opinion.
For RT’s consideration.
Regards,
Lili
*From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 11:21 PM *To:* SUN Lili <L.SUN@interpol.int> *Cc:* rds-whois2-rt@icann.org *Subject:* Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services
Hi Lili,
I would prefer a more reasonable approach as well.
2) it was a conscious decision that was made at the time by the parties involved in the negotiations and that was (and still is) supported by the members of the review team that I talked to. Further, asking contracted parties to reach out to registrants that they have little to no contact with over the years other than receiving payment once a year is a recipe for disaster and disenfranchisement of the registrants of these legacy domains. The only viable way to implement improvement of contactibility is included in the RAA and the upcoming privacy proxy accreditation agreement.
3) As I said, it is an issue, but not one ICANN can or should solve. This is one for the governments. Privacy services are also and will be even less in the future anything but bulletproof, as there are defined processes to obtain the data for legitimate requestors. And hosting services are outside the scope of ICANN anyway.
Volker
Am 05.06.2018 um 17:05 schrieb SUN Lili:
Hi Volker,
I really don’t want to have such communication in the future.
2) from my perspective, it is also an assumption.
3) I’d suggest you to comment on something you have knowledge or really work on. How do you know the modus operandi behind the scene? And what’s your rational for such guess? As long as there is a loophole, the criminals will grasp it and exploit it. No state would be the lucky one. Bulletproof hosting service is not new anymore, I’m here talking P/P service could be abused as such service.
Lili
*From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 10:41 PM *To:* SUN Lili <L.SUN@interpol.int> <mailto:L.SUN@interpol.int> *Cc:* rds-whois2-rt@icann.org <mailto:rds-whois2-rt@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services
Hi Lili,
1) I have no issue with noting that while the contactibility levels of privacy protected data (or of data redacted due to GDPR, for that matter) is difficult to measure, the obligation of privacy service providers to validate certain data fields and to verify one other field in the same manner as required by registrars adequately ensures sufficient contactibility is maintained, provided there obligations are adhered to, which we should expect.
2) The legacy should be of little concern. This has been debated at length in the RAA 2013 negotiations and in other fora, but the gist of the matter is that abuse is more of an issue with newer domains, most of which are now registered under the 2013 RAA, whereas the domain names registered before that time have a significantly reduced risk of being registered for abusive purposes. And even if there is an issue, the registrant can now also be contacted by the registrar abuse contact which was also introduced through the 2013 RAA as an additional means to enable third parties to contact the registrant by means of the registrar. So even if it takes until the sun dies to digest the legacy, this should be a mnor issue.
3) This is an issue with extraterritoriality and the application and enforcement of national laws across borders. Good luck to Chinese authorities in enforcing their laws against foreign nationals that are not breaking their local laws and who will likely never come to China. I thought that is what your great cyberwall was for? ICANN has no role to play in this issue.
Best,
Volker
Am 05.06.2018 um 16:27 schrieb SUN Lili:
Hi Volker,
Thank you for your response.
For 1), if it is very hard to measure, then we should point it out, for the common sense is that the reliable information is there, just being protected from public access. LEAs are required court order issued by competent authority to have access to the information according to current PPSAI framework.
For 2), my concern is how many years will it take to digest the legacy.
For 3), my case study is only one example among many. Based on the business model, the content hosted could be anything, phishing, malware distributing, etc. Even the content is relating to porn or gambling, it is defined as illegal according to Chinese legislation. It’s Chinese authorities responsibility to take them down if there are victims of China.
Regards,
Lili
*From:*RDS-WHOIS2-RT [mailto:rds-whois2-rt-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Volker Greimann *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 7:31 PM *To:* rds-whois2-rt@icann.org <mailto:rds-whois2-rt@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services
Hi Lili,
thank you for your comments.
1) The question of reliability levels of data behind a privacy shield is very hard to measure, as no mechanism exists to properly conduct a study without violating the terms of the service. Possibly, an indication of reliability levels could be obtained from UDRP providers as they regularly deal with cases where the privacy service removes itself on the occurrence of a complaint, and therefore might have data on the reliability of the revealed data, however even then this sample would be skewed as most domains using whois privacy services are unlikely to be targets in a UDRP.
2) We assume that will be the case as touching all those existing customers is a near impossible task.
3) I reviewed your document, but I disagree with the assumptions therein. There was no indication or evidence of illegal use that I could determine. Porn and gambling, while distasteful are not necessarily illegal. So someone used a privacy service and registered a bunch of domains to serve such content to China. So what? Also, the fact that the redirect changed after a short while may point to the domains being parked with the incoming traffic being sold to the highest bidder, who at the time may have been a provider of such services.
I can see no abuse of a privacy service here.
Volker
Am 03.06.2018 um 05:21 schrieb SUN Lili:
Dear Privacy & Proxy subgroup members,
I went through the draft report of this subgroup on wiki page (https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=71604717) and step in with my concerns:
1.To the Data Accuracy subgroup, the Whois accuracy of domain names that utilize Privacy and Proxy Services is invisible. And Volker also mentioned that this will be dealt with in the Privacy & Proxy subgroup. As such, I strongly support Susan’s comments on “6 Conducting periodic due diligence checks on customer contact information” and “8 Providing clear and unambiguous guidance on the rights and responsibilities of registered name holders, and how those should be managed in the privacy/proxy environment.” There is no reason for a customer who chose P/P service thus been protected from responsibilities.
2.There is no indication about the legacy domain names that utilize P/P Services before the provider been accredited. Will it be a similar situation as Grandfathered domains?
3.Like the example I gave during the 2^nd F2F meeting, if there is not enough regulation and overseeing in place, P/P service is very likely to be abused. To be clear, I elaborated the example in a word document (see attached). Do we really need this kind of fake prosperity of domain industry?
A response from this subgroup is much appreciated.
Thanks,
Lili
*************************************************************************************************** This message, and any attachment contained, are confidential and subject of legal privilege. It may be used solely for the designated police/justice purpose and by the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. The information is not to be disseminated to another agency or third party without the author’s consent, and must not be retained longer than is necessary for the fulfilment of the purpose for which the information is to be used. All practicable steps shall be taken by the recipients to ensure that information is protected against unauthorised access or processing. INTERPOL reserves the right to enquire about the use of the information provided. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this message in error. In such a case, you should not print it, copy it, make any use of it or disclose it, but please notify us immediately and delete the message from any computer. *************************************************************************************************
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Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
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Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
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This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
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Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
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CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
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-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
Hi Volker and all, I met Mr David Conrad, Chief Technology Officer of ICANN today in Singapore. ICANN SSR team shares the same concern that P/P service could be abused as bulletproof service, and they need community’s inputs to work on it. In this context, I believe the findings of this RT could feed SSR team. Thanks, Lili From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] Sent: Wednesday, 6 June, 2018 4:25 PM To: SUN Lili <L.SUN@interpol.int> Cc: rds-whois2-rt@icann.org Subject: Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services You are correct in that SSR of the DNS are the main target of the SSR team - not ours. I also tend to agree that many aspects of privacy services are rendered superfluous by GDPR and other privacy protection regulations, but the community has decided that the PPSAI work should be completed and implemented regardless. It is not our place to question community policy decisions that have been accepted by community consensus, passed by the GNSO council and the board and now in the final stages of implementation. Volker Am 06.06.2018 um 05:51 schrieb SUN Lili: Hi Volker, I still have reservations about this. One of the mandates of ICANN is to maintain the Security, Stability and Resiliency of DNS, and DNS abuse mitigation is the main target of SSR team within ICANN. Once a new policy or service is launched, enough safeguards should be in place. The initial intention of P/P service is for personal information protection, the necessity of P/P service in post-GDPR implementation era need to be reviewed in my opinion. For RT’s consideration. Regards, Lili From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] Sent: Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 11:21 PM To: SUN Lili <L.SUN@interpol.int><mailto:L.SUN@interpol.int> Cc: rds-whois2-rt@icann.org<mailto:rds-whois2-rt@icann.org> Subject: Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services Hi Lili, I would prefer a more reasonable approach as well. 2) it was a conscious decision that was made at the time by the parties involved in the negotiations and that was (and still is) supported by the members of the review team that I talked to. Further, asking contracted parties to reach out to registrants that they have little to no contact with over the years other than receiving payment once a year is a recipe for disaster and disenfranchisement of the registrants of these legacy domains. The only viable way to implement improvement of contactibility is included in the RAA and the upcoming privacy proxy accreditation agreement. 3) As I said, it is an issue, but not one ICANN can or should solve. This is one for the governments. Privacy services are also and will be even less in the future anything but bulletproof, as there are defined processes to obtain the data for legitimate requestors. And hosting services are outside the scope of ICANN anyway. Volker Am 05.06.2018 um 17:05 schrieb SUN Lili: Hi Volker, I really don’t want to have such communication in the future. 2) from my perspective, it is also an assumption. 3) I’d suggest you to comment on something you have knowledge or really work on. How do you know the modus operandi behind the scene? And what’s your rational for such guess? As long as there is a loophole, the criminals will grasp it and exploit it. No state would be the lucky one. Bulletproof hosting service is not new anymore, I’m here talking P/P service could be abused as such service. Lili From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] Sent: Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 10:41 PM To: SUN Lili <L.SUN@interpol.int><mailto:L.SUN@interpol.int> Cc: rds-whois2-rt@icann.org<mailto:rds-whois2-rt@icann.org> Subject: Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services Hi Lili, 1) I have no issue with noting that while the contactibility levels of privacy protected data (or of data redacted due to GDPR, for that matter) is difficult to measure, the obligation of privacy service providers to validate certain data fields and to verify one other field in the same manner as required by registrars adequately ensures sufficient contactibility is maintained, provided there obligations are adhered to, which we should expect. 2) The legacy should be of little concern. This has been debated at length in the RAA 2013 negotiations and in other fora, but the gist of the matter is that abuse is more of an issue with newer domains, most of which are now registered under the 2013 RAA, whereas the domain names registered before that time have a significantly reduced risk of being registered for abusive purposes. And even if there is an issue, the registrant can now also be contacted by the registrar abuse contact which was also introduced through the 2013 RAA as an additional means to enable third parties to contact the registrant by means of the registrar. So even if it takes until the sun dies to digest the legacy, this should be a mnor issue. 3) This is an issue with extraterritoriality and the application and enforcement of national laws across borders. Good luck to Chinese authorities in enforcing their laws against foreign nationals that are not breaking their local laws and who will likely never come to China. I thought that is what your great cyberwall was for? ICANN has no role to play in this issue. Best, Volker Am 05.06.2018 um 16:27 schrieb SUN Lili: Hi Volker, Thank you for your response. For 1), if it is very hard to measure, then we should point it out, for the common sense is that the reliable information is there, just being protected from public access. LEAs are required court order issued by competent authority to have access to the information according to current PPSAI framework. For 2), my concern is how many years will it take to digest the legacy. For 3), my case study is only one example among many. Based on the business model, the content hosted could be anything, phishing, malware distributing, etc. Even the content is relating to porn or gambling, it is defined as illegal according to Chinese legislation. It’s Chinese authorities responsibility to take them down if there are victims of China. Regards, Lili From: RDS-WHOIS2-RT [mailto:rds-whois2-rt-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 7:31 PM To: rds-whois2-rt@icann.org<mailto:rds-whois2-rt@icann.org> Subject: Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services Hi Lili, thank you for your comments. 1) The question of reliability levels of data behind a privacy shield is very hard to measure, as no mechanism exists to properly conduct a study without violating the terms of the service. Possibly, an indication of reliability levels could be obtained from UDRP providers as they regularly deal with cases where the privacy service removes itself on the occurrence of a complaint, and therefore might have data on the reliability of the revealed data, however even then this sample would be skewed as most domains using whois privacy services are unlikely to be targets in a UDRP. 2) We assume that will be the case as touching all those existing customers is a near impossible task. 3) I reviewed your document, but I disagree with the assumptions therein. There was no indication or evidence of illegal use that I could determine. Porn and gambling, while distasteful are not necessarily illegal. So someone used a privacy service and registered a bunch of domains to serve such content to China. So what? Also, the fact that the redirect changed after a short while may point to the domains being parked with the incoming traffic being sold to the highest bidder, who at the time may have been a provider of such services. I can see no abuse of a privacy service here. Volker Am 03.06.2018 um 05:21 schrieb SUN Lili: Dear Privacy & Proxy subgroup members, I went through the draft report of this subgroup on wiki page (https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=71604717) and step in with my concerns: 1. To the Data Accuracy subgroup, the Whois accuracy of domain names that utilize Privacy and Proxy Services is invisible. And Volker also mentioned that this will be dealt with in the Privacy & Proxy subgroup. As such, I strongly support Susan’s comments on “6 Conducting periodic due diligence checks on customer contact information” and “8 Providing clear and unambiguous guidance on the rights and responsibilities of registered name holders, and how those should be managed in the privacy/proxy environment.” There is no reason for a customer who chose P/P service thus been protected from responsibilities. 2. There is no indication about the legacy domain names that utilize P/P Services before the provider been accredited. Will it be a similar situation as Grandfathered domains? 3. Like the example I gave during the 2nd F2F meeting, if there is not enough regulation and overseeing in place, P/P service is very likely to be abused. To be clear, I elaborated the example in a word document (see attached). Do we really need this kind of fake prosperity of domain industry? A response from this subgroup is much appreciated. 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Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. 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Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
I think the community has reflected these thoughts in their recommendations in the PPSAI WG Report. Unless you want to reopen the careful balance struck by the WG and invalidate their work before it even has been implemented, I feel we should be very careful in making a recommendation that contradicts or changes the recommendations in that report. The PPSAI framework that has been proposed is anything but bulletproof with sufficient ways to gain access to the data. If the reult of the WG is not sufficient for your interests, maybe you should have gotten ivolved back when the WG was still in its deliberation phase? Volker Am 08.06.2018 um 10:47 schrieb SUN Lili:
Hi Volker and all,
I met Mr David Conrad, Chief Technology Officer of ICANN today in Singapore. ICANN SSR team shares the same concern that P/P service could be abused as bulletproof service, and they need community’s inputs to work on it. In this context, I believe the findings of this RT could feed SSR team.
Thanks,
Lili
*From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] *Sent:* Wednesday, 6 June, 2018 4:25 PM *To:* SUN Lili <L.SUN@interpol.int> *Cc:* rds-whois2-rt@icann.org *Subject:* Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services
You are correct in that SSR of the DNS are the main target of the SSR team - not ours.
I also tend to agree that many aspects of privacy services are rendered superfluous by GDPR and other privacy protection regulations, but the community has decided that the PPSAI work should be completed and implemented regardless. It is not our place to question community policy decisions that have been accepted by community consensus, passed by the GNSO council and the board and now in the final stages of implementation.
Volker
Am 06.06.2018 um 05:51 schrieb SUN Lili:
Hi Volker,
I still have reservations about this.
One of the mandates of ICANN is to maintain the Security, Stability and Resiliency of DNS, and DNS abuse mitigation is the main target of SSR team within ICANN. Once a new policy or service is launched, enough safeguards should be in place.
The initial intention of P/P service is for personal information protection, the necessity of P/P service in post-GDPR implementation era need to be reviewed in my opinion.
For RT’s consideration.
Regards,
Lili
*From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 11:21 PM *To:* SUN Lili <L.SUN@interpol.int> <mailto:L.SUN@interpol.int> *Cc:* rds-whois2-rt@icann.org <mailto:rds-whois2-rt@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services
Hi Lili,
I would prefer a more reasonable approach as well.
2) it was a conscious decision that was made at the time by the parties involved in the negotiations and that was (and still is) supported by the members of the review team that I talked to. Further, asking contracted parties to reach out to registrants that they have little to no contact with over the years other than receiving payment once a year is a recipe for disaster and disenfranchisement of the registrants of these legacy domains. The only viable way to implement improvement of contactibility is included in the RAA and the upcoming privacy proxy accreditation agreement.
3) As I said, it is an issue, but not one ICANN can or should solve. This is one for the governments. Privacy services are also and will be even less in the future anything but bulletproof, as there are defined processes to obtain the data for legitimate requestors. And hosting services are outside the scope of ICANN anyway.
Volker
Am 05.06.2018 um 17:05 schrieb SUN Lili:
Hi Volker,
I really don’t want to have such communication in the future.
2) from my perspective, it is also an assumption.
3) I’d suggest you to comment on something you have knowledge or really work on. How do you know the modus operandi behind the scene? And what’s your rational for such guess? As long as there is a loophole, the criminals will grasp it and exploit it. No state would be the lucky one. Bulletproof hosting service is not new anymore, I’m here talking P/P service could be abused as such service.
Lili
*From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 10:41 PM *To:* SUN Lili <L.SUN@interpol.int> <mailto:L.SUN@interpol.int> *Cc:* rds-whois2-rt@icann.org <mailto:rds-whois2-rt@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services
Hi Lili,
1) I have no issue with noting that while the contactibility levels of privacy protected data (or of data redacted due to GDPR, for that matter) is difficult to measure, the obligation of privacy service providers to validate certain data fields and to verify one other field in the same manner as required by registrars adequately ensures sufficient contactibility is maintained, provided there obligations are adhered to, which we should expect.
2) The legacy should be of little concern. This has been debated at length in the RAA 2013 negotiations and in other fora, but the gist of the matter is that abuse is more of an issue with newer domains, most of which are now registered under the 2013 RAA, whereas the domain names registered before that time have a significantly reduced risk of being registered for abusive purposes. And even if there is an issue, the registrant can now also be contacted by the registrar abuse contact which was also introduced through the 2013 RAA as an additional means to enable third parties to contact the registrant by means of the registrar. So even if it takes until the sun dies to digest the legacy, this should be a mnor issue.
3) This is an issue with extraterritoriality and the application and enforcement of national laws across borders. Good luck to Chinese authorities in enforcing their laws against foreign nationals that are not breaking their local laws and who will likely never come to China. I thought that is what your great cyberwall was for? ICANN has no role to play in this issue.
Best,
Volker
Am 05.06.2018 um 16:27 schrieb SUN Lili:
Hi Volker,
Thank you for your response.
For 1), if it is very hard to measure, then we should point it out, for the common sense is that the reliable information is there, just being protected from public access. LEAs are required court order issued by competent authority to have access to the information according to current PPSAI framework.
For 2), my concern is how many years will it take to digest the legacy.
For 3), my case study is only one example among many. Based on the business model, the content hosted could be anything, phishing, malware distributing, etc. Even the content is relating to porn or gambling, it is defined as illegal according to Chinese legislation. It’s Chinese authorities responsibility to take them down if there are victims of China.
Regards,
Lili
*From:*RDS-WHOIS2-RT [mailto:rds-whois2-rt-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Volker Greimann *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 7:31 PM *To:* rds-whois2-rt@icann.org <mailto:rds-whois2-rt@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services
Hi Lili,
thank you for your comments.
1) The question of reliability levels of data behind a privacy shield is very hard to measure, as no mechanism exists to properly conduct a study without violating the terms of the service. Possibly, an indication of reliability levels could be obtained from UDRP providers as they regularly deal with cases where the privacy service removes itself on the occurrence of a complaint, and therefore might have data on the reliability of the revealed data, however even then this sample would be skewed as most domains using whois privacy services are unlikely to be targets in a UDRP.
2) We assume that will be the case as touching all those existing customers is a near impossible task.
3) I reviewed your document, but I disagree with the assumptions therein. There was no indication or evidence of illegal use that I could determine. Porn and gambling, while distasteful are not necessarily illegal. So someone used a privacy service and registered a bunch of domains to serve such content to China. So what? Also, the fact that the redirect changed after a short while may point to the domains being parked with the incoming traffic being sold to the highest bidder, who at the time may have been a provider of such services.
I can see no abuse of a privacy service here.
Volker
Am 03.06.2018 um 05:21 schrieb SUN Lili:
Dear Privacy & Proxy subgroup members,
I went through the draft report of this subgroup on wiki page (https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=71604717) and step in with my concerns:
1.To the Data Accuracy subgroup, the Whois accuracy of domain names that utilize Privacy and Proxy Services is invisible. And Volker also mentioned that this will be dealt with in the Privacy & Proxy subgroup. As such, I strongly support Susan’s comments on “6 Conducting periodic due diligence checks on customer contact information” and “8 Providing clear and unambiguous guidance on the rights and responsibilities of registered name holders, and how those should be managed in the privacy/proxy environment.” There is no reason for a customer who chose P/P service thus been protected from responsibilities.
2.There is no indication about the legacy domain names that utilize P/P Services before the provider been accredited. Will it be a similar situation as Grandfathered domains?
3.Like the example I gave during the 2^nd F2F meeting, if there is not enough regulation and overseeing in place, P/P service is very likely to be abused. To be clear, I elaborated the example in a word document (see attached). Do we really need this kind of fake prosperity of domain industry?
A response from this subgroup is much appreciated.
Thanks,
Lili
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- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
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Best regards,
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Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
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Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
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Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
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--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
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-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
Dear all, Just a request on how we communicate - please avoid personal sniping like here below. I agree with Lili on this one. We cannot just block comments based on the rationale that a PDP had a certain outcome. Best regards Cathrin From: RDS-WHOIS2-RT [mailto:rds-whois2-rt-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Monday, June 11, 2018 5:21 PM To: SUN Lili Cc: rds-whois2-rt@icann.org Subject: Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services I think the community has reflected these thoughts in their recommendations in the PPSAI WG Report. Unless you want to reopen the careful balance struck by the WG and invalidate their work before it even has been implemented, I feel we should be very careful in making a recommendation that contradicts or changes the recommendations in that report. The PPSAI framework that has been proposed is anything but bulletproof with sufficient ways to gain access to the data. If the reult of the WG is not sufficient for your interests, maybe you should have gotten ivolved back when the WG was still in its deliberation phase? Volker Am 08.06.2018 um 10:47 schrieb SUN Lili: Hi Volker and all, I met Mr David Conrad, Chief Technology Officer of ICANN today in Singapore. ICANN SSR team shares the same concern that P/P service could be abused as bulletproof service, and they need community’s inputs to work on it. In this context, I believe the findings of this RT could feed SSR team. Thanks, Lili From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] Sent: Wednesday, 6 June, 2018 4:25 PM To: SUN Lili <L.SUN@interpol.int><mailto:L.SUN@interpol.int> Cc: rds-whois2-rt@icann.org<mailto:rds-whois2-rt@icann.org> Subject: Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services You are correct in that SSR of the DNS are the main target of the SSR team - not ours. I also tend to agree that many aspects of privacy services are rendered superfluous by GDPR and other privacy protection regulations, but the community has decided that the PPSAI work should be completed and implemented regardless. It is not our place to question community policy decisions that have been accepted by community consensus, passed by the GNSO council and the board and now in the final stages of implementation. Volker Am 06.06.2018 um 05:51 schrieb SUN Lili: Hi Volker, I still have reservations about this. One of the mandates of ICANN is to maintain the Security, Stability and Resiliency of DNS, and DNS abuse mitigation is the main target of SSR team within ICANN. Once a new policy or service is launched, enough safeguards should be in place. The initial intention of P/P service is for personal information protection, the necessity of P/P service in post-GDPR implementation era need to be reviewed in my opinion. For RT’s consideration. Regards, Lili From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] Sent: Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 11:21 PM To: SUN Lili <L.SUN@interpol.int><mailto:L.SUN@interpol.int> Cc: rds-whois2-rt@icann.org<mailto:rds-whois2-rt@icann.org> Subject: Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services Hi Lili, I would prefer a more reasonable approach as well. 2) it was a conscious decision that was made at the time by the parties involved in the negotiations and that was (and still is) supported by the members of the review team that I talked to. Further, asking contracted parties to reach out to registrants that they have little to no contact with over the years other than receiving payment once a year is a recipe for disaster and disenfranchisement of the registrants of these legacy domains. The only viable way to implement improvement of contactibility is included in the RAA and the upcoming privacy proxy accreditation agreement. 3) As I said, it is an issue, but not one ICANN can or should solve. This is one for the governments. Privacy services are also and will be even less in the future anything but bulletproof, as there are defined processes to obtain the data for legitimate requestors. And hosting services are outside the scope of ICANN anyway. Volker Am 05.06.2018 um 17:05 schrieb SUN Lili: Hi Volker, I really don’t want to have such communication in the future. 2) from my perspective, it is also an assumption. 3) I’d suggest you to comment on something you have knowledge or really work on. How do you know the modus operandi behind the scene? And what’s your rational for such guess? As long as there is a loophole, the criminals will grasp it and exploit it. No state would be the lucky one. Bulletproof hosting service is not new anymore, I’m here talking P/P service could be abused as such service. Lili From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] Sent: Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 10:41 PM To: SUN Lili <L.SUN@interpol.int><mailto:L.SUN@interpol.int> Cc: rds-whois2-rt@icann.org<mailto:rds-whois2-rt@icann.org> Subject: Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services Hi Lili, 1) I have no issue with noting that while the contactibility levels of privacy protected data (or of data redacted due to GDPR, for that matter) is difficult to measure, the obligation of privacy service providers to validate certain data fields and to verify one other field in the same manner as required by registrars adequately ensures sufficient contactibility is maintained, provided there obligations are adhered to, which we should expect. 2) The legacy should be of little concern. This has been debated at length in the RAA 2013 negotiations and in other fora, but the gist of the matter is that abuse is more of an issue with newer domains, most of which are now registered under the 2013 RAA, whereas the domain names registered before that time have a significantly reduced risk of being registered for abusive purposes. And even if there is an issue, the registrant can now also be contacted by the registrar abuse contact which was also introduced through the 2013 RAA as an additional means to enable third parties to contact the registrant by means of the registrar. So even if it takes until the sun dies to digest the legacy, this should be a mnor issue. 3) This is an issue with extraterritoriality and the application and enforcement of national laws across borders. Good luck to Chinese authorities in enforcing their laws against foreign nationals that are not breaking their local laws and who will likely never come to China. I thought that is what your great cyberwall was for? ICANN has no role to play in this issue. Best, Volker Am 05.06.2018 um 16:27 schrieb SUN Lili: Hi Volker, Thank you for your response. For 1), if it is very hard to measure, then we should point it out, for the common sense is that the reliable information is there, just being protected from public access. LEAs are required court order issued by competent authority to have access to the information according to current PPSAI framework. For 2), my concern is how many years will it take to digest the legacy. For 3), my case study is only one example among many. Based on the business model, the content hosted could be anything, phishing, malware distributing, etc. Even the content is relating to porn or gambling, it is defined as illegal according to Chinese legislation. It’s Chinese authorities responsibility to take them down if there are victims of China. Regards, Lili From: RDS-WHOIS2-RT [mailto:rds-whois2-rt-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 7:31 PM To: rds-whois2-rt@icann.org<mailto:rds-whois2-rt@icann.org> Subject: Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services Hi Lili, thank you for your comments. 1) The question of reliability levels of data behind a privacy shield is very hard to measure, as no mechanism exists to properly conduct a study without violating the terms of the service. Possibly, an indication of reliability levels could be obtained from UDRP providers as they regularly deal with cases where the privacy service removes itself on the occurrence of a complaint, and therefore might have data on the reliability of the revealed data, however even then this sample would be skewed as most domains using whois privacy services are unlikely to be targets in a UDRP. 2) We assume that will be the case as touching all those existing customers is a near impossible task. 3) I reviewed your document, but I disagree with the assumptions therein. There was no indication or evidence of illegal use that I could determine. Porn and gambling, while distasteful are not necessarily illegal. So someone used a privacy service and registered a bunch of domains to serve such content to China. So what? Also, the fact that the redirect changed after a short while may point to the domains being parked with the incoming traffic being sold to the highest bidder, who at the time may have been a provider of such services. I can see no abuse of a privacy service here. Volker Am 03.06.2018 um 05:21 schrieb SUN Lili: Dear Privacy & Proxy subgroup members, I went through the draft report of this subgroup on wiki page (https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=71604717) and step in with my concerns: 1. To the Data Accuracy subgroup, the Whois accuracy of domain names that utilize Privacy and Proxy Services is invisible. And Volker also mentioned that this will be dealt with in the Privacy & Proxy subgroup. As such, I strongly support Susan’s comments on “6 Conducting periodic due diligence checks on customer contact information” and “8 Providing clear and unambiguous guidance on the rights and responsibilities of registered name holders, and how those should be managed in the privacy/proxy environment.” There is no reason for a customer who chose P/P service thus been protected from responsibilities. 2. There is no indication about the legacy domain names that utilize P/P Services before the provider been accredited. Will it be a similar situation as Grandfathered domains? 3. Like the example I gave during the 2nd F2F meeting, if there is not enough regulation and overseeing in place, P/P service is very likely to be abused. To be clear, I elaborated the example in a word document (see attached). Do we really need this kind of fake prosperity of domain industry? A response from this subgroup is much appreciated. Thanks, Lili *************************************************************************************************** This message, and any attachment contained, are confidential and subject of legal privilege. It may be used solely for the designated police/justice purpose and by the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. The information is not to be disseminated to another agency or third party without the author’s consent, and must not be retained longer than is necessary for the fulfilment of the purpose for which the information is to be used. All practicable steps shall be taken by the recipients to ensure that information is protected against unauthorised access or processing. INTERPOL reserves the right to enquire about the use of the information provided. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this message in error. In such a case, you should not print it, copy it, make any use of it or disclose it, but please notify us immediately and delete the message from any computer. ************************************************************************************************* _______________________________________________ RDS-WHOIS2-RT mailing list RDS-WHOIS2-RT@icann.org<mailto:RDS-WHOIS2-RT@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rds-whois2-rt -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. 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Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. 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Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
I have very strong feelings on parts of the community trying to backdoor things into policy that have been discussed by an actual PDP and had been taken into account. What would be the point of doing a PDP otherwise if anyone can come afterwards and try to shoehorn their own agenda into the process? If the community has decided the matter, that is that. Volker Am 11.06.2018 um 17:25 schrieb Cathrin.BAUER-BULST@ec.europa.eu:
Dear all,
Just a request on how we communicate - please avoid personal sniping like here below.
I agree with Lili on this one. We cannot just block comments based on the rationale that a PDP had a certain outcome.
Best regards
Cathrin
*From:*RDS-WHOIS2-RT [mailto:rds-whois2-rt-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Volker Greimann *Sent:* Monday, June 11, 2018 5:21 PM *To:* SUN Lili *Cc:* rds-whois2-rt@icann.org *Subject:* Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services
I think the community has reflected these thoughts in their recommendations in the PPSAI WG Report. Unless you want to reopen the careful balance struck by the WG and invalidate their work before it even has been implemented, I feel we should be very careful in making a recommendation that contradicts or changes the recommendations in that report.
The PPSAI framework that has been proposed is anything but bulletproof with sufficient ways to gain access to the data.
If the reult of the WG is not sufficient for your interests, maybe you should have gotten ivolved back when the WG was still in its deliberation phase?
Volker
Am 08.06.2018 um 10:47 schrieb SUN Lili:
Hi Volker and all,
I met Mr David Conrad, Chief Technology Officer of ICANN today in Singapore. ICANN SSR team shares the same concern that P/P service could be abused as bulletproof service, and they need community’s inputs to work on it. In this context, I believe the findings of this RT could feed SSR team.
Thanks,
Lili
*From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] *Sent:* Wednesday, 6 June, 2018 4:25 PM *To:* SUN Lili <L.SUN@interpol.int> <mailto:L.SUN@interpol.int> *Cc:* rds-whois2-rt@icann.org <mailto:rds-whois2-rt@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services
You are correct in that SSR of the DNS are the main target of the SSR team - not ours.
I also tend to agree that many aspects of privacy services are rendered superfluous by GDPR and other privacy protection regulations, but the community has decided that the PPSAI work should be completed and implemented regardless. It is not our place to question community policy decisions that have been accepted by community consensus, passed by the GNSO council and the board and now in the final stages of implementation.
Volker
Am 06.06.2018 um 05:51 schrieb SUN Lili:
Hi Volker,
I still have reservations about this.
One of the mandates of ICANN is to maintain the Security, Stability and Resiliency of DNS, and DNS abuse mitigation is the main target of SSR team within ICANN. Once a new policy or service is launched, enough safeguards should be in place.
The initial intention of P/P service is for personal information protection, the necessity of P/P service in post-GDPR implementation era need to be reviewed in my opinion.
For RT’s consideration.
Regards,
Lili
*From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 11:21 PM *To:* SUN Lili <L.SUN@interpol.int> <mailto:L.SUN@interpol.int> *Cc:* rds-whois2-rt@icann.org <mailto:rds-whois2-rt@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services
Hi Lili,
I would prefer a more reasonable approach as well.
2) it was a conscious decision that was made at the time by the parties involved in the negotiations and that was (and still is) supported by the members of the review team that I talked to. Further, asking contracted parties to reach out to registrants that they have little to no contact with over the years other than receiving payment once a year is a recipe for disaster and disenfranchisement of the registrants of these legacy domains. The only viable way to implement improvement of contactibility is included in the RAA and the upcoming privacy proxy accreditation agreement.
3) As I said, it is an issue, but not one ICANN can or should solve. This is one for the governments. Privacy services are also and will be even less in the future anything but bulletproof, as there are defined processes to obtain the data for legitimate requestors. And hosting services are outside the scope of ICANN anyway.
Volker
Am 05.06.2018 um 17:05 schrieb SUN Lili:
Hi Volker,
I really don’t want to have such communication in the future.
2) from my perspective, it is also an assumption.
3) I’d suggest you to comment on something you have knowledge or really work on. How do you know the modus operandi behind the scene? And what’s your rational for such guess? As long as there is a loophole, the criminals will grasp it and exploit it. No state would be the lucky one. Bulletproof hosting service is not new anymore, I’m here talking P/P service could be abused as such service.
Lili
*From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 10:41 PM *To:* SUN Lili <L.SUN@interpol.int> <mailto:L.SUN@interpol.int> *Cc:* rds-whois2-rt@icann.org <mailto:rds-whois2-rt@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services
Hi Lili,
1) I have no issue with noting that while the contactibility levels of privacy protected data (or of data redacted due to GDPR, for that matter) is difficult to measure, the obligation of privacy service providers to validate certain data fields and to verify one other field in the same manner as required by registrars adequately ensures sufficient contactibility is maintained, provided there obligations are adhered to, which we should expect.
2) The legacy should be of little concern. This has been debated at length in the RAA 2013 negotiations and in other fora, but the gist of the matter is that abuse is more of an issue with newer domains, most of which are now registered under the 2013 RAA, whereas the domain names registered before that time have a significantly reduced risk of being registered for abusive purposes. And even if there is an issue, the registrant can now also be contacted by the registrar abuse contact which was also introduced through the 2013 RAA as an additional means to enable third parties to contact the registrant by means of the registrar. So even if it takes until the sun dies to digest the legacy, this should be a mnor issue.
3) This is an issue with extraterritoriality and the application and enforcement of national laws across borders. Good luck to Chinese authorities in enforcing their laws against foreign nationals that are not breaking their local laws and who will likely never come to China. I thought that is what your great cyberwall was for? ICANN has no role to play in this issue.
Best,
Volker
Am 05.06.2018 um 16:27 schrieb SUN Lili:
Hi Volker,
Thank you for your response.
For 1), if it is very hard to measure, then we should point it out, for the common sense is that the reliable information is there, just being protected from public access. LEAs are required court order issued by competent authority to have access to the information according to current PPSAI framework.
For 2), my concern is how many years will it take to digest the legacy.
For 3), my case study is only one example among many. Based on the business model, the content hosted could be anything, phishing, malware distributing, etc. Even the content is relating to porn or gambling, it is defined as illegal according to Chinese legislation. It’s Chinese authorities responsibility to take them down if there are victims of China.
Regards,
Lili
*From:*RDS-WHOIS2-RT [mailto:rds-whois2-rt-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Volker Greimann *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 7:31 PM *To:* rds-whois2-rt@icann.org <mailto:rds-whois2-rt@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services
Hi Lili,
thank you for your comments.
1) The question of reliability levels of data behind a privacy shield is very hard to measure, as no mechanism exists to properly conduct a study without violating the terms of the service. Possibly, an indication of reliability levels could be obtained from UDRP providers as they regularly deal with cases where the privacy service removes itself on the occurrence of a complaint, and therefore might have data on the reliability of the revealed data, however even then this sample would be skewed as most domains using whois privacy services are unlikely to be targets in a UDRP.
2) We assume that will be the case as touching all those existing customers is a near impossible task.
3) I reviewed your document, but I disagree with the assumptions therein. There was no indication or evidence of illegal use that I could determine. Porn and gambling, while distasteful are not necessarily illegal. So someone used a privacy service and registered a bunch of domains to serve such content to China. So what? Also, the fact that the redirect changed after a short while may point to the domains being parked with the incoming traffic being sold to the highest bidder, who at the time may have been a provider of such services.
I can see no abuse of a privacy service here.
Volker
Am 03.06.2018 um 05:21 schrieb SUN Lili:
Dear Privacy & Proxy subgroup members,
I went through the draft report of this subgroup on wiki page (https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=71604717) and step in with my concerns:
1.To the Data Accuracy subgroup, the Whois accuracy of domain names that utilize Privacy and Proxy Services is invisible. And Volker also mentioned that this will be dealt with in the Privacy & Proxy subgroup. As such, I strongly support Susan’s comments on “6 Conducting periodic due diligence checks on customer contact information” and “8 Providing clear and unambiguous guidance on the rights and responsibilities of registered name holders, and how those should be managed in the privacy/proxy environment.” There is no reason for a customer who chose P/P service thus been protected from responsibilities.
2.There is no indication about the legacy domain names that utilize P/P Services before the provider been accredited. Will it be a similar situation as Grandfathered domains?
3.Like the example I gave during the 2^nd F2F meeting, if there is not enough regulation and overseeing in place, P/P service is very likely to be abused. To be clear, I elaborated the example in a word document (see attached). Do we really need this kind of fake prosperity of domain industry?
A response from this subgroup is much appreciated.
Thanks,
Lili
*************************************************************************************************** This message, and any attachment contained, are confidential and subject of legal privilege. It may be used solely for the designated police/justice purpose and by the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. The information is not to be disseminated to another agency or third party without the author’s consent, and must not be retained longer than is necessary for the fulfilment of the purpose for which the information is to be used. All practicable steps shall be taken by the recipients to ensure that information is protected against unauthorised access or processing. INTERPOL reserves the right to enquire about the use of the information provided. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this message in error. In such a case, you should not print it, copy it, make any use of it or disclose it, but please notify us immediately and delete the message from any computer. *************************************************************************************************
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Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
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Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
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--------------------------------------------
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Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
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--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
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Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
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--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
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Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
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Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
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CEO: Alexander Siffrin
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V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
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www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
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-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
I must say that while I understand the concerns of GAC members very well, the PDP spent a great deal of time on the PPSAI. Then we spent a great deal of time at the GNSO, dealing with GAC objections. I personally felt that the compromise reached left some doors swinging open, but that was a Board decision, if I recall correctly. In any event, I do agree with Volker that it is not our place to replace that policy with our opinions at this point. Further, I expect there will be disagreement within the group on the issues. Stephanie On 2018-06-11 11:32, Volker Greimann wrote:
I have very strong feelings on parts of the community trying to backdoor things into policy that have been discussed by an actual PDP and had been taken into account. What would be the point of doing a PDP otherwise if anyone can come afterwards and try to shoehorn their own agenda into the process?
If the community has decided the matter, that is that.
Volker
Am 11.06.2018 um 17:25 schrieb Cathrin.BAUER-BULST@ec.europa.eu:
Dear all,
Just a request on how we communicate - please avoid personal sniping like here below.
I agree with Lili on this one. We cannot just block comments based on the rationale that a PDP had a certain outcome.
Best regards
Cathrin
*From:*RDS-WHOIS2-RT [mailto:rds-whois2-rt-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Volker Greimann *Sent:* Monday, June 11, 2018 5:21 PM *To:* SUN Lili *Cc:* rds-whois2-rt@icann.org *Subject:* Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services
I think the community has reflected these thoughts in their recommendations in the PPSAI WG Report. Unless you want to reopen the careful balance struck by the WG and invalidate their work before it even has been implemented, I feel we should be very careful in making a recommendation that contradicts or changes the recommendations in that report.
The PPSAI framework that has been proposed is anything but bulletproof with sufficient ways to gain access to the data.
If the reult of the WG is not sufficient for your interests, maybe you should have gotten ivolved back when the WG was still in its deliberation phase?
Volker
Am 08.06.2018 um 10:47 schrieb SUN Lili:
Hi Volker and all,
I met Mr David Conrad, Chief Technology Officer of ICANN today in Singapore. ICANN SSR team shares the same concern that P/P service could be abused as bulletproof service, and they need community’s inputs to work on it. In this context, I believe the findings of this RT could feed SSR team.
Thanks,
Lili
*From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] *Sent:* Wednesday, 6 June, 2018 4:25 PM *To:* SUN Lili <L.SUN@interpol.int> <mailto:L.SUN@interpol.int> *Cc:* rds-whois2-rt@icann.org <mailto:rds-whois2-rt@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services
You are correct in that SSR of the DNS are the main target of the SSR team - not ours.
I also tend to agree that many aspects of privacy services are rendered superfluous by GDPR and other privacy protection regulations, but the community has decided that the PPSAI work should be completed and implemented regardless. It is not our place to question community policy decisions that have been accepted by community consensus, passed by the GNSO council and the board and now in the final stages of implementation.
Volker
Am 06.06.2018 um 05:51 schrieb SUN Lili:
Hi Volker,
I still have reservations about this.
One of the mandates of ICANN is to maintain the Security, Stability and Resiliency of DNS, and DNS abuse mitigation is the main target of SSR team within ICANN. Once a new policy or service is launched, enough safeguards should be in place.
The initial intention of P/P service is for personal information protection, the necessity of P/P service in post-GDPR implementation era need to be reviewed in my opinion.
For RT’s consideration.
Regards,
Lili
*From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 11:21 PM *To:* SUN Lili <L.SUN@interpol.int> <mailto:L.SUN@interpol.int> *Cc:* rds-whois2-rt@icann.org <mailto:rds-whois2-rt@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services
Hi Lili,
I would prefer a more reasonable approach as well.
2) it was a conscious decision that was made at the time by the parties involved in the negotiations and that was (and still is) supported by the members of the review team that I talked to. Further, asking contracted parties to reach out to registrants that they have little to no contact with over the years other than receiving payment once a year is a recipe for disaster and disenfranchisement of the registrants of these legacy domains. The only viable way to implement improvement of contactibility is included in the RAA and the upcoming privacy proxy accreditation agreement.
3) As I said, it is an issue, but not one ICANN can or should solve. This is one for the governments. Privacy services are also and will be even less in the future anything but bulletproof, as there are defined processes to obtain the data for legitimate requestors. And hosting services are outside the scope of ICANN anyway.
Volker
Am 05.06.2018 um 17:05 schrieb SUN Lili:
Hi Volker,
I really don’t want to have such communication in the future.
2) from my perspective, it is also an assumption.
3) I’d suggest you to comment on something you have knowledge or really work on. How do you know the modus operandi behind the scene? And what’s your rational for such guess? As long as there is a loophole, the criminals will grasp it and exploit it. No state would be the lucky one. Bulletproof hosting service is not new anymore, I’m here talking P/P service could be abused as such service.
Lili
*From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 10:41 PM *To:* SUN Lili <L.SUN@interpol.int> <mailto:L.SUN@interpol.int> *Cc:* rds-whois2-rt@icann.org <mailto:rds-whois2-rt@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services
Hi Lili,
1) I have no issue with noting that while the contactibility levels of privacy protected data (or of data redacted due to GDPR, for that matter) is difficult to measure, the obligation of privacy service providers to validate certain data fields and to verify one other field in the same manner as required by registrars adequately ensures sufficient contactibility is maintained, provided there obligations are adhered to, which we should expect.
2) The legacy should be of little concern. This has been debated at length in the RAA 2013 negotiations and in other fora, but the gist of the matter is that abuse is more of an issue with newer domains, most of which are now registered under the 2013 RAA, whereas the domain names registered before that time have a significantly reduced risk of being registered for abusive purposes. And even if there is an issue, the registrant can now also be contacted by the registrar abuse contact which was also introduced through the 2013 RAA as an additional means to enable third parties to contact the registrant by means of the registrar. So even if it takes until the sun dies to digest the legacy, this should be a mnor issue.
3) This is an issue with extraterritoriality and the application and enforcement of national laws across borders. Good luck to Chinese authorities in enforcing their laws against foreign nationals that are not breaking their local laws and who will likely never come to China. I thought that is what your great cyberwall was for? ICANN has no role to play in this issue.
Best,
Volker
Am 05.06.2018 um 16:27 schrieb SUN Lili:
Hi Volker,
Thank you for your response.
For 1), if it is very hard to measure, then we should point it out, for the common sense is that the reliable information is there, just being protected from public access. LEAs are required court order issued by competent authority to have access to the information according to current PPSAI framework.
For 2), my concern is how many years will it take to digest the legacy.
For 3), my case study is only one example among many. Based on the business model, the content hosted could be anything, phishing, malware distributing, etc. Even the content is relating to porn or gambling, it is defined as illegal according to Chinese legislation. It’s Chinese authorities responsibility to take them down if there are victims of China.
Regards,
Lili
*From:*RDS-WHOIS2-RT [mailto:rds-whois2-rt-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Volker Greimann *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 7:31 PM *To:* rds-whois2-rt@icann.org <mailto:rds-whois2-rt@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services
Hi Lili,
thank you for your comments.
1) The question of reliability levels of data behind a privacy shield is very hard to measure, as no mechanism exists to properly conduct a study without violating the terms of the service. Possibly, an indication of reliability levels could be obtained from UDRP providers as they regularly deal with cases where the privacy service removes itself on the occurrence of a complaint, and therefore might have data on the reliability of the revealed data, however even then this sample would be skewed as most domains using whois privacy services are unlikely to be targets in a UDRP.
2) We assume that will be the case as touching all those existing customers is a near impossible task.
3) I reviewed your document, but I disagree with the assumptions therein. There was no indication or evidence of illegal use that I could determine. Porn and gambling, while distasteful are not necessarily illegal. So someone used a privacy service and registered a bunch of domains to serve such content to China. So what? Also, the fact that the redirect changed after a short while may point to the domains being parked with the incoming traffic being sold to the highest bidder, who at the time may have been a provider of such services.
I can see no abuse of a privacy service here.
Volker
Am 03.06.2018 um 05:21 schrieb SUN Lili:
Dear Privacy & Proxy subgroup members,
I went through the draft report of this subgroup on wiki page (https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=71604717) and step in with my concerns:
1.To the Data Accuracy subgroup, the Whois accuracy of domain names that utilize Privacy and Proxy Services is invisible. And Volker also mentioned that this will be dealt with in the Privacy & Proxy subgroup. As such, I strongly support Susan’s comments on “6 Conducting periodic due diligence checks on customer contact information” and “8 Providing clear and unambiguous guidance on the rights and responsibilities of registered name holders, and how those should be managed in the privacy/proxy environment.” There is no reason for a customer who chose P/P service thus been protected from responsibilities.
2.There is no indication about the legacy domain names that utilize P/P Services before the provider been accredited. Will it be a similar situation as Grandfathered domains?
3.Like the example I gave during the 2^nd F2F meeting, if there is not enough regulation and overseeing in place, P/P service is very likely to be abused. To be clear, I elaborated the example in a word document (see attached). Do we really need this kind of fake prosperity of domain industry?
A response from this subgroup is much appreciated.
Thanks,
Lili
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Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
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Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
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Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
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CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
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CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann - legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems
CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
_______________________________________________ RDS-WHOIS2-RT mailing list RDS-WHOIS2-RT@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rds-whois2-rt
First of all, if the P/P service is in the scope of this RT, and the work has not been implemented yet, then what could be reviewed at this stage? If the PDP is listed as a forbidden area, we can simply rule out this topic. Secondly, according to the previous communication with Volker, it seems that all the concerns I raised have been exposed and discussed within the PDP. As such, I was wondering how these were dealt, to what extent. I couldn’t find anything useful with a simple conclusion that it’s none of the business of this RT. Lili From: RDS-WHOIS2-RT [mailto:rds-whois2-rt-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Stephanie Perrin Sent: Monday, 11 June, 2018 11:38 PM To: rds-whois2-rt@icann.org Subject: Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services I must say that while I understand the concerns of GAC members very well, the PDP spent a great deal of time on the PPSAI. Then we spent a great deal of time at the GNSO, dealing with GAC objections. I personally felt that the compromise reached left some doors swinging open, but that was a Board decision, if I recall correctly. In any event, I do agree with Volker that it is not our place to replace that policy with our opinions at this point. Further, I expect there will be disagreement within the group on the issues. Stephanie On 2018-06-11 11:32, Volker Greimann wrote: I have very strong feelings on parts of the community trying to backdoor things into policy that have been discussed by an actual PDP and had been taken into account. What would be the point of doing a PDP otherwise if anyone can come afterwards and try to shoehorn their own agenda into the process? If the community has decided the matter, that is that. Volker Am 11.06.2018 um 17:25 schrieb Cathrin.BAUER-BULST@ec.europa.eu<mailto:Cathrin.BAUER-BULST@ec.europa.eu>: Dear all, Just a request on how we communicate - please avoid personal sniping like here below. I agree with Lili on this one. We cannot just block comments based on the rationale that a PDP had a certain outcome. Best regards Cathrin From: RDS-WHOIS2-RT [mailto:rds-whois2-rt-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Monday, June 11, 2018 5:21 PM To: SUN Lili Cc: rds-whois2-rt@icann.org<mailto:rds-whois2-rt@icann.org> Subject: Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services I think the community has reflected these thoughts in their recommendations in the PPSAI WG Report. Unless you want to reopen the careful balance struck by the WG and invalidate their work before it even has been implemented, I feel we should be very careful in making a recommendation that contradicts or changes the recommendations in that report. The PPSAI framework that has been proposed is anything but bulletproof with sufficient ways to gain access to the data. If the reult of the WG is not sufficient for your interests, maybe you should have gotten ivolved back when the WG was still in its deliberation phase? Volker Am 08.06.2018 um 10:47 schrieb SUN Lili: Hi Volker and all, I met Mr David Conrad, Chief Technology Officer of ICANN today in Singapore. ICANN SSR team shares the same concern that P/P service could be abused as bulletproof service, and they need community’s inputs to work on it. In this context, I believe the findings of this RT could feed SSR team. Thanks, Lili From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] Sent: Wednesday, 6 June, 2018 4:25 PM To: SUN Lili <L.SUN@interpol.int><mailto:L.SUN@interpol.int> Cc: rds-whois2-rt@icann.org<mailto:rds-whois2-rt@icann.org> Subject: Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services You are correct in that SSR of the DNS are the main target of the SSR team - not ours. I also tend to agree that many aspects of privacy services are rendered superfluous by GDPR and other privacy protection regulations, but the community has decided that the PPSAI work should be completed and implemented regardless. It is not our place to question community policy decisions that have been accepted by community consensus, passed by the GNSO council and the board and now in the final stages of implementation. Volker Am 06.06.2018 um 05:51 schrieb SUN Lili: Hi Volker, I still have reservations about this. One of the mandates of ICANN is to maintain the Security, Stability and Resiliency of DNS, and DNS abuse mitigation is the main target of SSR team within ICANN. Once a new policy or service is launched, enough safeguards should be in place. The initial intention of P/P service is for personal information protection, the necessity of P/P service in post-GDPR implementation era need to be reviewed in my opinion. For RT’s consideration. Regards, Lili From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] Sent: Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 11:21 PM To: SUN Lili <L.SUN@interpol.int><mailto:L.SUN@interpol.int> Cc: rds-whois2-rt@icann.org<mailto:rds-whois2-rt@icann.org> Subject: Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services Hi Lili, I would prefer a more reasonable approach as well. 2) it was a conscious decision that was made at the time by the parties involved in the negotiations and that was (and still is) supported by the members of the review team that I talked to. Further, asking contracted parties to reach out to registrants that they have little to no contact with over the years other than receiving payment once a year is a recipe for disaster and disenfranchisement of the registrants of these legacy domains. The only viable way to implement improvement of contactibility is included in the RAA and the upcoming privacy proxy accreditation agreement. 3) As I said, it is an issue, but not one ICANN can or should solve. This is one for the governments. Privacy services are also and will be even less in the future anything but bulletproof, as there are defined processes to obtain the data for legitimate requestors. And hosting services are outside the scope of ICANN anyway. Volker Am 05.06.2018 um 17:05 schrieb SUN Lili: Hi Volker, I really don’t want to have such communication in the future. 2) from my perspective, it is also an assumption. 3) I’d suggest you to comment on something you have knowledge or really work on. How do you know the modus operandi behind the scene? And what’s your rational for such guess? As long as there is a loophole, the criminals will grasp it and exploit it. No state would be the lucky one. Bulletproof hosting service is not new anymore, I’m here talking P/P service could be abused as such service. Lili From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] Sent: Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 10:41 PM To: SUN Lili <L.SUN@interpol.int><mailto:L.SUN@interpol.int> Cc: rds-whois2-rt@icann.org<mailto:rds-whois2-rt@icann.org> Subject: Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services Hi Lili, 1) I have no issue with noting that while the contactibility levels of privacy protected data (or of data redacted due to GDPR, for that matter) is difficult to measure, the obligation of privacy service providers to validate certain data fields and to verify one other field in the same manner as required by registrars adequately ensures sufficient contactibility is maintained, provided there obligations are adhered to, which we should expect. 2) The legacy should be of little concern. This has been debated at length in the RAA 2013 negotiations and in other fora, but the gist of the matter is that abuse is more of an issue with newer domains, most of which are now registered under the 2013 RAA, whereas the domain names registered before that time have a significantly reduced risk of being registered for abusive purposes. And even if there is an issue, the registrant can now also be contacted by the registrar abuse contact which was also introduced through the 2013 RAA as an additional means to enable third parties to contact the registrant by means of the registrar. So even if it takes until the sun dies to digest the legacy, this should be a mnor issue. 3) This is an issue with extraterritoriality and the application and enforcement of national laws across borders. Good luck to Chinese authorities in enforcing their laws against foreign nationals that are not breaking their local laws and who will likely never come to China. I thought that is what your great cyberwall was for? ICANN has no role to play in this issue. Best, Volker Am 05.06.2018 um 16:27 schrieb SUN Lili: Hi Volker, Thank you for your response. For 1), if it is very hard to measure, then we should point it out, for the common sense is that the reliable information is there, just being protected from public access. LEAs are required court order issued by competent authority to have access to the information according to current PPSAI framework. For 2), my concern is how many years will it take to digest the legacy. For 3), my case study is only one example among many. Based on the business model, the content hosted could be anything, phishing, malware distributing, etc. Even the content is relating to porn or gambling, it is defined as illegal according to Chinese legislation. It’s Chinese authorities responsibility to take them down if there are victims of China. Regards, Lili From: RDS-WHOIS2-RT [mailto:rds-whois2-rt-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 7:31 PM To: rds-whois2-rt@icann.org<mailto:rds-whois2-rt@icann.org> Subject: Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services Hi Lili, thank you for your comments. 1) The question of reliability levels of data behind a privacy shield is very hard to measure, as no mechanism exists to properly conduct a study without violating the terms of the service. Possibly, an indication of reliability levels could be obtained from UDRP providers as they regularly deal with cases where the privacy service removes itself on the occurrence of a complaint, and therefore might have data on the reliability of the revealed data, however even then this sample would be skewed as most domains using whois privacy services are unlikely to be targets in a UDRP. 2) We assume that will be the case as touching all those existing customers is a near impossible task. 3) I reviewed your document, but I disagree with the assumptions therein. There was no indication or evidence of illegal use that I could determine. Porn and gambling, while distasteful are not necessarily illegal. So someone used a privacy service and registered a bunch of domains to serve such content to China. So what? Also, the fact that the redirect changed after a short while may point to the domains being parked with the incoming traffic being sold to the highest bidder, who at the time may have been a provider of such services. I can see no abuse of a privacy service here. Volker Am 03.06.2018 um 05:21 schrieb SUN Lili: Dear Privacy & Proxy subgroup members, I went through the draft report of this subgroup on wiki page (https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=71604717) and step in with my concerns: 1. To the Data Accuracy subgroup, the Whois accuracy of domain names that utilize Privacy and Proxy Services is invisible. And Volker also mentioned that this will be dealt with in the Privacy & Proxy subgroup. As such, I strongly support Susan’s comments on “6 Conducting periodic due diligence checks on customer contact information” and “8 Providing clear and unambiguous guidance on the rights and responsibilities of registered name holders, and how those should be managed in the privacy/proxy environment.” There is no reason for a customer who chose P/P service thus been protected from responsibilities. 2. There is no indication about the legacy domain names that utilize P/P Services before the provider been accredited. Will it be a similar situation as Grandfathered domains? 3. Like the example I gave during the 2nd F2F meeting, if there is not enough regulation and overseeing in place, P/P service is very likely to be abused. To be clear, I elaborated the example in a word document (see attached). Do we really need this kind of fake prosperity of domain industry? A response from this subgroup is much appreciated. 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Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. 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You are touching upon a point that is indeed part of the puzzle for this subgroup. In my view, we should look at how ICANN as a whole has picked up the recommendation and acted to implement it. In many ways, this RT is scheduled too early to review this particular body of work as we cannot analyze the effect of an implementation that has not happened yet. So what remains to be done is to review how ICANN has picked up the ball thrown by the first RT, and in that, we can with confidence state that it has implemented this recommendation as detailed in the action plan: (https://whois.icann.org/sites/default/files/files/Implementation%20of%20WHOI...) and based on the work that followed it, such as the PDP. Unless we can find evidence that would allow us to state with confidence that an essential element intended by the initial recommendation has been overlooked in all the work that has occurred since then we should take a step back and see how the current work product of the ICANN community plays out. The issue of who gets what access to he data and how was deliberated in great detail on the list and during the calls of the PDP as part of the discussions of its Charter Question Categories F (Reveal and Relay) and G (Termination). The original RT proposed that the regulation or overseeing of such services could be the establishment of an accreditation system. This is in the final stages right now. We simply cannot make the determination whether it is fit for purpose or not as we have no data pointing either way. Am 12.06.2018 um 04:38 schrieb SUN Lili:
First of all, if the P/P service is in the scope of this RT, and the work has not been implemented yet, then what could be reviewed at this stage? If the PDP is listed as a forbidden area, we can simply rule out this topic.
Secondly, according to the previous communication with Volker, it seems that all the concerns I raised have been exposed and discussed within the PDP. As such, I was wondering how these were dealt, to what extent. I couldn’t find anything useful with a simple conclusion that it’s none of the business of this RT.
Lili
*From:*RDS-WHOIS2-RT [mailto:rds-whois2-rt-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Stephanie Perrin *Sent:* Monday, 11 June, 2018 11:38 PM *To:* rds-whois2-rt@icann.org *Subject:* Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services
I must say that while I understand the concerns of GAC members very well, the PDP spent a great deal of time on the PPSAI. Then we spent a great deal of time at the GNSO, dealing with GAC objections. I personally felt that the compromise reached left some doors swinging open, but that was a Board decision, if I recall correctly. In any event, I do agree with Volker that it is not our place to replace that policy with our opinions at this point. Further, I expect there will be disagreement within the group on the issues.
Stephanie
On 2018-06-11 11:32, Volker Greimann wrote:
I have very strong feelings on parts of the community trying to backdoor things into policy that have been discussed by an actual PDP and had been taken into account. What would be the point of doing a PDP otherwise if anyone can come afterwards and try to shoehorn their own agenda into the process?
If the community has decided the matter, that is that.
Volker
Am 11.06.2018 um 17:25 schrieb Cathrin.BAUER-BULST@ec.europa.eu <mailto:Cathrin.BAUER-BULST@ec.europa.eu>:
Dear all,
Just a request on how we communicate - please avoid personal sniping like here below.
I agree with Lili on this one. We cannot just block comments based on the rationale that a PDP had a certain outcome.
Best regards
Cathrin
*From:*RDS-WHOIS2-RT [mailto:rds-whois2-rt-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Volker Greimann *Sent:* Monday, June 11, 2018 5:21 PM *To:* SUN Lili *Cc:* rds-whois2-rt@icann.org <mailto:rds-whois2-rt@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services
I think the community has reflected these thoughts in their recommendations in the PPSAI WG Report. Unless you want to reopen the careful balance struck by the WG and invalidate their work before it even has been implemented, I feel we should be very careful in making a recommendation that contradicts or changes the recommendations in that report.
The PPSAI framework that has been proposed is anything but bulletproof with sufficient ways to gain access to the data.
If the reult of the WG is not sufficient for your interests, maybe you should have gotten ivolved back when the WG was still in its deliberation phase?
Volker
Am 08.06.2018 um 10:47 schrieb SUN Lili:
Hi Volker and all,
I met Mr David Conrad, Chief Technology Officer of ICANN today in Singapore. ICANN SSR team shares the same concern that P/P service could be abused as bulletproof service, and they need community’s inputs to work on it. In this context, I believe the findings of this RT could feed SSR team.
Thanks,
Lili
*From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] *Sent:* Wednesday, 6 June, 2018 4:25 PM *To:* SUN Lili <L.SUN@interpol.int> <mailto:L.SUN@interpol.int> *Cc:* rds-whois2-rt@icann.org <mailto:rds-whois2-rt@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services
You are correct in that SSR of the DNS are the main target of the SSR team - not ours.
I also tend to agree that many aspects of privacy services are rendered superfluous by GDPR and other privacy protection regulations, but the community has decided that the PPSAI work should be completed and implemented regardless. It is not our place to question community policy decisions that have been accepted by community consensus, passed by the GNSO council and the board and now in the final stages of implementation.
Volker
Am 06.06.2018 um 05:51 schrieb SUN Lili:
Hi Volker,
I still have reservations about this.
One of the mandates of ICANN is to maintain the Security, Stability and Resiliency of DNS, and DNS abuse mitigation is the main target of SSR team within ICANN. Once a new policy or service is launched, enough safeguards should be in place.
The initial intention of P/P service is for personal information protection, the necessity of P/P service in post-GDPR implementation era need to be reviewed in my opinion.
For RT’s consideration.
Regards,
Lili
*From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 11:21 PM *To:* SUN Lili <L.SUN@interpol.int> <mailto:L.SUN@interpol.int> *Cc:* rds-whois2-rt@icann.org <mailto:rds-whois2-rt@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services
Hi Lili,
I would prefer a more reasonable approach as well.
2) it was a conscious decision that was made at the time by the parties involved in the negotiations and that was (and still is) supported by the members of the review team that I talked to. Further, asking contracted parties to reach out to registrants that they have little to no contact with over the years other than receiving payment once a year is a recipe for disaster and disenfranchisement of the registrants of these legacy domains. The only viable way to implement improvement of contactibility is included in the RAA and the upcoming privacy proxy accreditation agreement.
3) As I said, it is an issue, but not one ICANN can or should solve. This is one for the governments. Privacy services are also and will be even less in the future anything but bulletproof, as there are defined processes to obtain the data for legitimate requestors. And hosting services are outside the scope of ICANN anyway.
Volker
Am 05.06.2018 um 17:05 schrieb SUN Lili:
Hi Volker,
I really don’t want to have such communication in the future.
2) from my perspective, it is also an assumption.
3) I’d suggest you to comment on something you have knowledge or really work on. How do you know the modus operandi behind the scene? And what’s your rational for such guess? As long as there is a loophole, the criminals will grasp it and exploit it. No state would be the lucky one. Bulletproof hosting service is not new anymore, I’m here talking P/P service could be abused as such service.
Lili
*From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 10:41 PM *To:* SUN Lili <L.SUN@interpol.int> <mailto:L.SUN@interpol.int> *Cc:* rds-whois2-rt@icann.org <mailto:rds-whois2-rt@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services
Hi Lili,
1) I have no issue with noting that while the contactibility levels of privacy protected data (or of data redacted due to GDPR, for that matter) is difficult to measure, the obligation of privacy service providers to validate certain data fields and to verify one other field in the same manner as required by registrars adequately ensures sufficient contactibility is maintained, provided there obligations are adhered to, which we should expect.
2) The legacy should be of little concern. This has been debated at length in the RAA 2013 negotiations and in other fora, but the gist of the matter is that abuse is more of an issue with newer domains, most of which are now registered under the 2013 RAA, whereas the domain names registered before that time have a significantly reduced risk of being registered for abusive purposes. And even if there is an issue, the registrant can now also be contacted by the registrar abuse contact which was also introduced through the 2013 RAA as an additional means to enable third parties to contact the registrant by means of the registrar. So even if it takes until the sun dies to digest the legacy, this should be a mnor issue.
3) This is an issue with extraterritoriality and the application and enforcement of national laws across borders. Good luck to Chinese authorities in enforcing their laws against foreign nationals that are not breaking their local laws and who will likely never come to China. I thought that is what your great cyberwall was for? ICANN has no role to play in this issue.
Best,
Volker
Am 05.06.2018 um 16:27 schrieb SUN Lili:
Hi Volker,
Thank you for your response.
For 1), if it is very hard to measure, then we should point it out, for the common sense is that the reliable information is there, just being protected from public access. LEAs are required court order issued by competent authority to have access to the information according to current PPSAI framework.
For 2), my concern is how many years will it take to digest the legacy.
For 3), my case study is only one example among many. Based on the business model, the content hosted could be anything, phishing, malware distributing, etc. Even the content is relating to porn or gambling, it is defined as illegal according to Chinese legislation. It’s Chinese authorities responsibility to take them down if there are victims of China.
Regards,
Lili
*From:*RDS-WHOIS2-RT [mailto:rds-whois2-rt-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Volker Greimann *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 June, 2018 7:31 PM *To:* rds-whois2-rt@icann.org <mailto:rds-whois2-rt@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [RDS-WHOIS2-RT] Comments about the Subgroup Report of Privacy/Proxy Services
Hi Lili,
thank you for your comments.
1) The question of reliability levels of data behind a privacy shield is very hard to measure, as no mechanism exists to properly conduct a study without violating the terms of the service. Possibly, an indication of reliability levels could be obtained from UDRP providers as they regularly deal with cases where the privacy service removes itself on the occurrence of a complaint, and therefore might have data on the reliability of the revealed data, however even then this sample would be skewed as most domains using whois privacy services are unlikely to be targets in a UDRP.
2) We assume that will be the case as touching all those existing customers is a near impossible task.
3) I reviewed your document, but I disagree with the assumptions therein. There was no indication or evidence of illegal use that I could determine. Porn and gambling, while distasteful are not necessarily illegal. So someone used a privacy service and registered a bunch of domains to serve such content to China. So what? Also, the fact that the redirect changed after a short while may point to the domains being parked with the incoming traffic being sold to the highest bidder, who at the time may have been a provider of such services.
I can see no abuse of a privacy service here.
Volker
Am 03.06.2018 um 05:21 schrieb SUN Lili:
Dear Privacy & Proxy subgroup members,
I went through the draft report of this subgroup on wiki page (https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=71604717) and step in with my concerns:
1.To the Data Accuracy subgroup, the Whois accuracy of domain names that utilize Privacy and Proxy Services is invisible. And Volker also mentioned that this will be dealt with in the Privacy & Proxy subgroup. As such, I strongly support Susan’s comments on “6 Conducting periodic due diligence checks on customer contact information” and “8 Providing clear and unambiguous guidance on the rights and responsibilities of registered name holders, and how those should be managed in the privacy/proxy environment.” There is no reason for a customer who chose P/P service thus been protected from responsibilities.
2.There is no indication about the legacy domain names that utilize P/P Services before the provider been accredited. Will it be a similar situation as Grandfathered domains?
3.Like the example I gave during the 2^nd F2F meeting, if there is not enough regulation and overseeing in place, P/P service is very likely to be abused. To be clear, I elaborated the example in a word document (see attached). Do we really need this kind of fake prosperity of domain industry?
A response from this subgroup is much appreciated.
Thanks,
Lili
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Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
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--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
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Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
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--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
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-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
Hi Lili: See my comments in line. ============================== *Carlton A Samuels* *Mobile: 876-818-1799Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* ============================= On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 10:21 PM, SUN Lili <L.SUN@interpol.int> wrote:
Dear Privacy & Proxy subgroup members,
I went through the draft report of this subgroup on wiki page ( https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=71604717) and step in with my concerns:
1. To the Data Accuracy subgroup, the Whois accuracy of domain names that utilize Privacy and Proxy Services is invisible. And Volker also mentioned that this will be dealt with in the Privacy & Proxy subgroup.
Under current rules, the accredited P/P provider is obliged to ensure contactability of customer of his service. That this is the case cannot be verified independently and some of us have argued from inception this is a major hole in the agreement. We have alternately argued that there should be graded penalties for this violation after the fact.
As such, I strongly support Susan’s comments on “6 Conducting periodic due diligence checks on customer contact information” and “8 Providing clear and unambiguous guidance on the rights and responsibilities of registered name holders, and how those should be managed in the privacy/proxy environment.” There is no reason for a customer who chose P/P service thus been protected from responsibilities.
See above. We expect that the risk triage will allow the cost of violation to pass to the customer.
2. There is no indication about the legacy domain names that utilize P/P Services before the provider been accredited. Will it be a similar situation as Grandfathered domains?
Some of us have argued that there should be a Privacy/Proxy Data Accuracy Reminder policy along the line of the WHOIS Data reminder. It was not accepted. But there is no reason the P/P provider cannot be obliged and bound to it in terms of the accreditation for renewals.
3. Like the example I gave during the 2nd F2F meeting, if there is not enough regulation and overseeing in place, P/P service is very likely to be abused. To be clear, I elaborated the example in a word document (see attached). Do we really need this kind of fake prosperity of domain industry?
A response from this subgroup is much appreciated.
Best, -Carlton
Thanks,
Lili
************************************************************ *************************************** This message, and any attachment contained, are confidential and subject of legal privilege. It may be used solely for the designated police/justice purpose and by the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. The information is not to be disseminated to another agency or third party without the author’s consent, and must not be retained longer than is necessary for the fulfilment of the purpose for which the information is to be used. All practicable steps shall be taken by the recipients to ensure that information is protected against unauthorised access or processing. INTERPOL reserves the right to enquire about the use of the information provided. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this message in error. In such a case, you should not print it, copy it, make any use of it or disclose it, but please notify us immediately and delete the message from any computer. ************************************************************ *************************************
_______________________________________________ RDS-WHOIS2-RT mailing list RDS-WHOIS2-RT@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rds-whois2-rt
I do not support any attempt to introduce an obligation for service providers to violate the privacy of their customers simply for purposes of "checks". The PPSAI WG has made very specific decisions regarding the obligations of service providers regarding data quality. It is not our place to question these decisions which have been approved by the GNSO and the board and are now on their final stretch of implementation. Our report should only say: "thank you ICANN, job well done!" Anything beyond that is a job for the review of the policy after it has been implemented for a while. Volker Am 06.06.2018 um 20:21 schrieb Carlton Samuels:
Hi Lili: See my comments in line.
============================== /Carlton A Samuels/ /Mobile: 876-818-1799 Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround/ =============================
On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 10:21 PM, SUN Lili <L.SUN@interpol.int <mailto:L.SUN@interpol.int>> wrote:
Dear Privacy & Proxy subgroup members,
I went through the draft report of this subgroup on wiki page (https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=71604717 <https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=71604717>) and step in with my concerns:
1.To the Data Accuracy subgroup, the Whois accuracy of domain names that utilize Privacy and Proxy Services is invisible. And Volker also mentioned that this will be dealt with in the Privacy & Proxy subgroup.
Under current rules, the accredited P/P provider is obliged to ensure contactability of customer of his service. That this is the case cannot be verified independently and some of us have argued from inception this is a major hole in the agreement. We have alternately argued that there should be graded penalties for this violation after the fact.
As such, I strongly support Susan’s comments on “6 Conducting periodic due diligence checks on customer contact information” and “8 Providing clear and unambiguous guidance on the rights and responsibilities of registered name holders, and how those should be managed in the privacy/proxy environment.” There is no reason for a customer who chose P/P service thus been protected from responsibilities.
See above. We expect that the risk triage will allow the cost of violation to pass to the customer.
2.There is no indication about the legacy domain names that utilize P/P Services before the provider been accredited. Will it be a similar situation as Grandfathered domains?
Some of us have argued that there should be a Privacy/Proxy Data Accuracy Reminder policy along the line of the WHOIS Data reminder. It was not accepted. But there is no reason the P/P provider cannot be obliged and bound to it in terms of the accreditation for renewals.
3.Like the example I gave during the 2^nd F2F meeting, if there is not enough regulation and overseeing in place, P/P service is very likely to be abused. To be clear, I elaborated the example in a word document (see attached). Do we really need this kind of fake prosperity of domain industry?
A response from this subgroup is much appreciated.
Best, -Carlton
Thanks,
Lili
*************************************************************************************************** This message, and any attachment contained, are confidential and subject of legal privilege. It may be used solely for the designated police/justice purpose and by the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. The information is not to be disseminated to another agency or third party without the author’s consent, and must not be retained longer than is necessary for the fulfilment of the purpose for which the information is to be used. All practicable steps shall be taken by the recipients to ensure that information is protected against unauthorised access or processing. INTERPOL reserves the right to enquire about the use of the information provided. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this message in error. In such a case, you should not print it, copy it, make any use of it or disclose it, but please notify us immediately and delete the message from any computer. *************************************************************************************************
_______________________________________________ RDS-WHOIS2-RT mailing list RDS-WHOIS2-RT@icann.org <mailto:RDS-WHOIS2-RT@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rds-whois2-rt <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rds-whois2-rt>
_______________________________________________ RDS-WHOIS2-RT mailing list RDS-WHOIS2-RT@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rds-whois2-rt
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
Hi Volker I disagree that our only option is to say thank you. This recommendation is 6 years old so it would make sense that as an RT we would review the policy created by the PDP and make a recommendation in view of what has transpired in the last 6 years. The Temp Spec addresses accuracy of data. What is being recommended is that a registrar treat the underlying registrant data the same way it is required to validate registrant data now. A registrar knows who their customer is and can ensure that the data under the PP is accurate without disclosing that to the world. Your claim this would violate the underlying registrant's privacy I do not follow that line of thinking at all. We should continue to discuss this recommendation. Susan On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 7:37 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote:
I do not support any attempt to introduce an obligation for service providers to violate the privacy of their customers simply for purposes of "checks".
The PPSAI WG has made very specific decisions regarding the obligations of service providers regarding data quality. It is not our place to question these decisions which have been approved by the GNSO and the board and are now on their final stretch of implementation.
Our report should only say: "thank you ICANN, job well done!"
Anything beyond that is a job for the review of the policy after it has been implemented for a while.
Volker
Am 06.06.2018 um 20:21 schrieb Carlton Samuels:
Hi Lili: See my comments in line.
============================== *Carlton A Samuels*
*Mobile: 876-818-1799 Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* =============================
On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 10:21 PM, SUN Lili <L.SUN@interpol.int> wrote:
Dear Privacy & Proxy subgroup members,
I went through the draft report of this subgroup on wiki page ( https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=71604717) and step in with my concerns:
1. To the Data Accuracy subgroup, the Whois accuracy of domain names that utilize Privacy and Proxy Services is invisible. And Volker also mentioned that this will be dealt with in the Privacy & Proxy subgroup.
Under current rules, the accredited P/P provider is obliged to ensure contactability of customer of his service. That this is the case cannot be verified independently and some of us have argued from inception this is a major hole in the agreement. We have alternately argued that there should be graded penalties for this violation after the fact.
As such, I strongly support Susan’s comments on “6 Conducting periodic due diligence checks on customer contact information” and “8 Providing clear and unambiguous guidance on the rights and responsibilities of registered name holders, and how those should be managed in the privacy/proxy environment.” There is no reason for a customer who chose P/P service thus been protected from responsibilities.
See above. We expect that the risk triage will allow the cost of violation to pass to the customer.
2. There is no indication about the legacy domain names that utilize P/P Services before the provider been accredited. Will it be a similar situation as Grandfathered domains?
Some of us have argued that there should be a Privacy/Proxy Data Accuracy Reminder policy along the line of the WHOIS Data reminder. It was not accepted. But there is no reason the P/P provider cannot be obliged and bound to it in terms of the accreditation for renewals.
3. Like the example I gave during the 2nd F2F meeting, if there is not enough regulation and overseeing in place, P/P service is very likely to be abused. To be clear, I elaborated the example in a word document (see attached). Do we really need this kind of fake prosperity of domain industry?
A response from this subgroup is much appreciated.
Best, -Carlton
Thanks,
Lili
************************************************************ *************************************** This message, and any attachment contained, are confidential and subject of legal privilege. It may be used solely for the designated police/justice purpose and by the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. The information is not to be disseminated to another agency or third party without the author’s consent, and must not be retained longer than is necessary for the fulfilment of the purpose for which the information is to be used. All practicable steps shall be taken by the recipients to ensure that information is protected against unauthorised access or processing. INTERPOL reserves the right to enquire about the use of the information provided. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this message in error. In such a case, you should not print it, copy it, make any use of it or disclose it, but please notify us immediately and delete the message from any computer. ************************************************************ *************************************
_______________________________________________ RDS-WHOIS2-RT mailing list RDS-WHOIS2-RT@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rds-whois2-rt
_______________________________________________ RDS-WHOIS2-RT mailing listRDS-WHOIS2-RT@icann.orghttps://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rds-whois2-rt
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann - legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems
CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
_______________________________________________ RDS-WHOIS2-RT mailing list RDS-WHOIS2-RT@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rds-whois2-rt
Volker, hi - I tend to agree with Susan (and Lili). I believe it's important to make a recommendation with regard to accuracy of dada. That part of data is not going to be visible in the future (maybe even only for EU-data sets) makes it even more important to say that data must be accurate. There's no need to go further and to include obligations that are premature but ICANN must ensure that there's a clear understanding that accuracy is key. Kind regards, Erika On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 1:20 PM, Susan Kawaguchi <susankpolicy@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Volker
I disagree that our only option is to say thank you. This recommendation is 6 years old so it would make sense that as an RT we would review the policy created by the PDP and make a recommendation in view of what has transpired in the last 6 years.
The Temp Spec addresses accuracy of data. What is being recommended is that a registrar treat the underlying registrant data the same way it is required to validate registrant data now. A registrar knows who their customer is and can ensure that the data under the PP is accurate without disclosing that to the world.
Your claim this would violate the underlying registrant's privacy I do not follow that line of thinking at all.
We should continue to discuss this recommendation.
Susan
On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 7:37 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net
wrote:
I do not support any attempt to introduce an obligation for service providers to violate the privacy of their customers simply for purposes of "checks".
The PPSAI WG has made very specific decisions regarding the obligations of service providers regarding data quality. It is not our place to question these decisions which have been approved by the GNSO and the board and are now on their final stretch of implementation.
Our report should only say: "thank you ICANN, job well done!"
Anything beyond that is a job for the review of the policy after it has been implemented for a while.
Volker
Am 06.06.2018 um 20:21 schrieb Carlton Samuels:
Hi Lili: See my comments in line.
============================== *Carlton A Samuels*
*Mobile: 876-818-1799 Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* =============================
On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 10:21 PM, SUN Lili <L.SUN@interpol.int> wrote:
Dear Privacy & Proxy subgroup members,
I went through the draft report of this subgroup on wiki page ( https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=71604717) and step in with my concerns:
1. To the Data Accuracy subgroup, the Whois accuracy of domain names that utilize Privacy and Proxy Services is invisible. And Volker also mentioned that this will be dealt with in the Privacy & Proxy subgroup.
Under current rules, the accredited P/P provider is obliged to ensure contactability of customer of his service. That this is the case cannot be verified independently and some of us have argued from inception this is a major hole in the agreement. We have alternately argued that there should be graded penalties for this violation after the fact.
As such, I strongly support Susan’s comments on “6 Conducting periodic due diligence checks on customer contact information” and “8 Providing clear and unambiguous guidance on the rights and responsibilities of registered name holders, and how those should be managed in the privacy/proxy environment.” There is no reason for a customer who chose P/P service thus been protected from responsibilities.
See above. We expect that the risk triage will allow the cost of violation to pass to the customer.
2. There is no indication about the legacy domain names that utilize P/P Services before the provider been accredited. Will it be a similar situation as Grandfathered domains?
Some of us have argued that there should be a Privacy/Proxy Data Accuracy Reminder policy along the line of the WHOIS Data reminder. It was not accepted. But there is no reason the P/P provider cannot be obliged and bound to it in terms of the accreditation for renewals.
3. Like the example I gave during the 2nd F2F meeting, if there is not enough regulation and overseeing in place, P/P service is very likely to be abused. To be clear, I elaborated the example in a word document (see attached). Do we really need this kind of fake prosperity of domain industry?
A response from this subgroup is much appreciated.
Best, -Carlton
Thanks,
Lili
************************************************************ *************************************** This message, and any attachment contained, are confidential and subject of legal privilege. It may be used solely for the designated police/justice purpose and by the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. The information is not to be disseminated to another agency or third party without the author’s consent, and must not be retained longer than is necessary for the fulfilment of the purpose for which the information is to be used. All practicable steps shall be taken by the recipients to ensure that information is protected against unauthorised access or processing. INTERPOL reserves the right to enquire about the use of the information provided. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this message in error. In such a case, you should not print it, copy it, make any use of it or disclose it, but please notify us immediately and delete the message from any computer. ************************************************************ *************************************
_______________________________________________ RDS-WHOIS2-RT mailing list RDS-WHOIS2-RT@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rds-whois2-rt
_______________________________________________ RDS-WHOIS2-RT mailing listRDS-WHOIS2-RT@icann.orghttps://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rds-whois2-rt
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann - legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems
CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
_______________________________________________ RDS-WHOIS2-RT mailing list RDS-WHOIS2-RT@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rds-whois2-rt
_______________________________________________ RDS-WHOIS2-RT mailing list RDS-WHOIS2-RT@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rds-whois2-rt
If we can agree on the original intent and replace the word accuracy with contactability, I could support this. Volker Am 07.06.2018 um 21:03 schrieb Erika Mann:
Volker, hi -
I tend to agree with Susan (and Lili). I believe it's important to make a recommendation with regard to accuracy of dada. That part of data is not going to be visible in the future (maybe even only for EU-data sets) makes it even more important to say that data must be accurate. There's no need to go further and to include obligations that are premature but ICANN must ensure that there's a clear understanding that accuracy is key.
Kind regards, Erika
On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 1:20 PM, Susan Kawaguchi <susankpolicy@gmail.com <mailto:susankpolicy@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi Volker
I disagree that our only option is to say thank you. This recommendation is 6 years old so it would make sense that as an RT we would review the policy created by the PDP and make a recommendation in view of what has transpired in the last 6 years.
The Temp Spec addresses accuracy of data. What is being recommended is that a registrar treat the underlying registrant data the same way it is required to validate registrant data now. A registrar knows who their customer is and can ensure that the data under the PP is accurate without disclosing that to the world.
Your claim this would violate the underlying registrant's privacy I do not follow that line of thinking at all.
We should continue to discuss this recommendation.
Susan
On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 7:37 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> wrote:
I do not support any attempt to introduce an obligation for service providers to violate the privacy of their customers simply for purposes of "checks".
The PPSAI WG has made very specific decisions regarding the obligations of service providers regarding data quality. It is not our place to question these decisions which have been approved by the GNSO and the board and are now on their final stretch of implementation.
Our report should only say: "thank you ICANN, job well done!"
Anything beyond that is a job for the review of the policy after it has been implemented for a while.
Volker
Am 06.06.2018 um 20:21 schrieb Carlton Samuels:
Hi Lili: See my comments in line.
============================== /Carlton A Samuels/ /Mobile: 876-818-1799 Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround/ =============================
On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 10:21 PM, SUN Lili <L.SUN@interpol.int <mailto:L.SUN@interpol.int>> wrote:
Dear Privacy & Proxy subgroup members,
I went through the draft report of this subgroup on wiki page (https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=71604717 <https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=71604717>) and step in with my concerns:
1.To the Data Accuracy subgroup, the Whois accuracy of domain names that utilize Privacy and Proxy Services is invisible. And Volker also mentioned that this will be dealt with in the Privacy & Proxy subgroup.
Under current rules, the accredited P/P provider is obliged to ensure contactability of customer of his service. That this is the case cannot be verified independently and some of us have argued from inception this is a major hole in the agreement. We have alternately argued that there should be graded penalties for this violation after the fact.
As such, I strongly support Susan’s comments on “6 Conducting periodic due diligence checks on customer contact information” and “8 Providing clear and unambiguous guidance on the rights and responsibilities of registered name holders, and how those should be managed in the privacy/proxy environment.” There is no reason for a customer who chose P/P service thus been protected from responsibilities.
See above. We expect that the risk triage will allow the cost of violation to pass to the customer.
2.There is no indication about the legacy domain names that utilize P/P Services before the provider been accredited. Will it be a similar situation as Grandfathered domains?
Some of us have argued that there should be a Privacy/Proxy Data Accuracy Reminder policy along the line of the WHOIS Data reminder. It was not accepted. But there is no reason the P/P provider cannot be obliged and bound to it in terms of the accreditation for renewals.
3.Like the example I gave during the 2^nd F2F meeting, if there is not enough regulation and overseeing in place, P/P service is very likely to be abused. To be clear, I elaborated the example in a word document (see attached). Do we really need this kind of fake prosperity of domain industry?
A response from this subgroup is much appreciated.
Best, -Carlton
Thanks,
Lili
*************************************************************************************************** This message, and any attachment contained, are confidential and subject of legal privilege. It may be used solely for the designated police/justice purpose and by the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. The information is not to be disseminated to another agency or third party without the author’s consent, and must not be retained longer than is necessary for the fulfilment of the purpose for which the information is to be used. All practicable steps shall be taken by the recipients to ensure that information is protected against unauthorised access or processing. INTERPOL reserves the right to enquire about the use of the information provided. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this message in error. In such a case, you should not print it, copy it, make any use of it or disclose it, but please notify us immediately and delete the message from any computer. *************************************************************************************************
_______________________________________________ RDS-WHOIS2-RT mailing list RDS-WHOIS2-RT@icann.org <mailto:RDS-WHOIS2-RT@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rds-whois2-rt <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rds-whois2-rt>
_______________________________________________ RDS-WHOIS2-RT mailing list RDS-WHOIS2-RT@icann.org <mailto:RDS-WHOIS2-RT@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rds-whois2-rt <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rds-whois2-rt>
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann - legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
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-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
Hi Susan, I still feel this is premature. Even if the rec is 6 years old, the PDP recommendations are still very fresh not even implemented yet. The GNSO council has approved them as has the board and a broad community consensus. I also have an issue with your assumption that we know who our customer is. We don't. We never met most of them. Most of them do not even have an account with us and pay their direct provider instead. We cannot "ensure" accuracy anymore than we can "ensure" a winning lottery ticket. All we can ensure is that the data meets a certain format (validation) and either email or phone number (usually email) works at the time the domain is registered (verification). To provide the data entrusted by the registrant to us to ICANN for anything but the agreed purpose would violate that trust. They certainly do not have a legitimate interest in that particular set of data that outweighs that particular registrants interest in privacy. Best, Volker Am 07.06.2018 um 19:20 schrieb Susan Kawaguchi:
Hi Volker
I disagree that our only option is to say thank you. This recommendation is 6 years old so it would make sense that as an RT we would review the policy created by the PDP and make a recommendation in view of what has transpired in the last 6 years.
The Temp Spec addresses accuracy of data. What is being recommended is that a registrar treat the underlying registrant data the same way it is required to validate registrant data now. A registrar knows who their customer is and can ensure that the data under the PP is accurate without disclosing that to the world.
Your claim this would violate the underlying registrant's privacy I do not follow that line of thinking at all.
We should continue to discuss this recommendation.
Susan
On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 7:37 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> wrote:
I do not support any attempt to introduce an obligation for service providers to violate the privacy of their customers simply for purposes of "checks".
The PPSAI WG has made very specific decisions regarding the obligations of service providers regarding data quality. It is not our place to question these decisions which have been approved by the GNSO and the board and are now on their final stretch of implementation.
Our report should only say: "thank you ICANN, job well done!"
Anything beyond that is a job for the review of the policy after it has been implemented for a while.
Volker
Am 06.06.2018 um 20:21 schrieb Carlton Samuels:
Hi Lili: See my comments in line.
============================== /Carlton A Samuels/ /Mobile: 876-818-1799 Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround/ =============================
On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 10:21 PM, SUN Lili <L.SUN@interpol.int <mailto:L.SUN@interpol.int>> wrote:
Dear Privacy & Proxy subgroup members,
I went through the draft report of this subgroup on wiki page (https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=71604717 <https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=71604717>) and step in with my concerns:
1.To the Data Accuracy subgroup, the Whois accuracy of domain names that utilize Privacy and Proxy Services is invisible. And Volker also mentioned that this will be dealt with in the Privacy & Proxy subgroup.
Under current rules, the accredited P/P provider is obliged to ensure contactability of customer of his service. That this is the case cannot be verified independently and some of us have argued from inception this is a major hole in the agreement. We have alternately argued that there should be graded penalties for this violation after the fact.
As such, I strongly support Susan’s comments on “6 Conducting periodic due diligence checks on customer contact information” and “8 Providing clear and unambiguous guidance on the rights and responsibilities of registered name holders, and how those should be managed in the privacy/proxy environment.” There is no reason for a customer who chose P/P service thus been protected from responsibilities.
See above. We expect that the risk triage will allow the cost of violation to pass to the customer.
2.There is no indication about the legacy domain names that utilize P/P Services before the provider been accredited. Will it be a similar situation as Grandfathered domains?
Some of us have argued that there should be a Privacy/Proxy Data Accuracy Reminder policy along the line of the WHOIS Data reminder. It was not accepted. But there is no reason the P/P provider cannot be obliged and bound to it in terms of the accreditation for renewals.
3.Like the example I gave during the 2^nd F2F meeting, if there is not enough regulation and overseeing in place, P/P service is very likely to be abused. To be clear, I elaborated the example in a word document (see attached). Do we really need this kind of fake prosperity of domain industry?
A response from this subgroup is much appreciated.
Best, -Carlton
Thanks,
Lili
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-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
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Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann - legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
_______________________________________________ RDS-WHOIS2-RT mailing list RDS-WHOIS2-RT@icann.org <mailto:RDS-WHOIS2-RT@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rds-whois2-rt <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rds-whois2-rt>
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
participants (7)
-
Carlton Samuels -
Cathrin.BAUER-BULST＠ec.europa.eu -
Erika Mann -
Stephanie Perrin -
SUN Lili -
Susan Kawaguchi -
Volker Greimann