This is very recent…. Anyone else can replicate the user experience (you need to read the article)? https://helmstedt.dk/2020/11/how-i-failed-to-make-linkedin-fix-their-broken-...
On 2020-11-16 10:36, Tan Tanaka, Dennis via UA-discuss wrote:
This is very recent…. Anyone else can replicate the user experience (you need to read the article)?
https://helmstedt.dk/2020/11/how-i-failed-to-make-linkedin-fix-their-broken-... <https://helmstedt.dk/2020/11/how-i-failed-to-make-linkedin-fix-their-broken-...>
I was able to reproduce the first bug — LinkedIn cannot generate a preview for an IDN with U-Labels, like https://ønskeskyen.dk , but can generate a preview for the same URL as A-labels, like https://xn--nskeskyen-k8a.dk/ . I was not able to reproduce the second bug — LinkedIn can generate shortlinks for URLs with path parts which are posted in LinkedIn announcements, but trying to follow the shortlink produces an error. When I clicked on the shortlink, my browser delivered me to the original URL with no apparent problem. I do think this story is a reality check for how difficult it is for individual customers to get the attention of a business, especially a big business, about technical and international matters like Universal Acceptance. I think we must encourage customers to ask their vendors to fix UA problems. We must, however, be realistic that this will be like rain on a granite boulder. There will be no apparent effect for the first many raindrops. If we wield the chisel of ICANN's name effectively, we can help the raindrops succeed much faster. Best regards, —Jim DeLaHunt, software engineer, Vancouver, Canada -- . --Jim DeLaHunt, jdlh@jdlh.com http://blog.jdlh.com/ (http://jdlh.com/) multilingual websites consultant 355-1027 Davie St, Vancouver BC V6E 4L2, Canada Canada mobile +1-604-376-8953
In article <3c0369ba-f7bd-9ec8-5a3d-945251a02ef7@jdlh.com> you write:
https://helmstedt.dk/2020/11/how-i-failed-to-make-linkedin-fix-their-broken-...
I asked someone at LI who said they know it's an issue but it's not a high prority to fix. R's, John
John, How do we make them escalate the bug? Or no such mechanism? Regards, On 11/20/2020 21:41, John Levine wrote:
In article <3c0369ba-f7bd-9ec8-5a3d-945251a02ef7@jdlh.com> you write:
https://helmstedt.dk/2020/11/how-i-failed-to-make-linkedin-fix-their-broken-... I asked someone at LI who said they know it's an issue but it's not a high prority to fix.
R's, John _______________________________________________ UA-discuss mailing list UA-discuss@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ua-discuss _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
-- Mark W. Datysgeld from Governance Primer [www.markwd.website] ICANN GNSO Councilor
How do we make them escalate the bug? Or no such mechanism?
They'll escalate it if they believe it is a significant problem or that it affects a lot of their users. At this point, neither is the case so they'll get to it when they get to it.
On 11/20/2020 21:41, John Levine wrote:
In article <3c0369ba-f7bd-9ec8-5a3d-945251a02ef7@jdlh.com> you write:
https://helmstedt.dk/2020/11/how-i-failed-to-make-linkedin-fix-their-broken-... I asked someone at LI who said they know it's an issue but it's not a high prority to fix.
R's, John _______________________________________________ UA-discuss mailing list UA-discuss@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ua-discuss _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Regards, John Levine, john.levine@standcore.com Standcore LLC
And this, succinct answer from John, is true for every organisation. Which is why Dr Data's approach of generating demand through big customers like government is still correct. We have seen in India where he started with his local state and has moved to influence the entire nation of India. China is another effort. Russia too. That was the local initiative strategy set out a couple of years ago. There have been some who have moved faster because it was the right thing to do - Microsoft for example. Google was an early leader mostly so that their own IDN's would actually work. The 'Why Bother' question needs to be answered. Tough one to justify. I still hope that the UASG will be able to help seed some of the largest email software providers. D -----Original Message----- From: UA-discuss <ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org> On Behalf Of John Levine Sent: Sunday, 22 November 2020 7:33 AM To: Mark Datysgeld <mark@governanceprimer.com>; ua-discuss@icann.org Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] IDN treatment in Linkedin
How do we make them escalate the bug? Or no such mechanism?
They'll escalate it if they believe it is a significant problem or that it affects a lot of their users. At this point, neither is the case so they'll get to it when they get to it.
On 11/20/2020 21:41, John Levine wrote:
In article <3c0369ba-f7bd-9ec8-5a3d-945251a02ef7@jdlh.com> you write:
https://helmstedt.dk/2020/11/how-i-failed-to-make-linkedin-fix-thei r-broken-url-parser-for-international-domain-names/ I asked someone at LI who said they know it's an issue but it's not a high prority to fix.
R's, John _______________________________________________ UA-discuss mailing list UA-discuss@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ua-discuss _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Regards, John Levine, john.levine@standcore.com Standcore LLC _______________________________________________ UA-discuss mailing list UA-discuss@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ua-discuss _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
On Sun, 22 Nov 2020, Don Hollander wrote:
I still hope that the UASG will be able to help seed some of the largest email software providers.
Gmail and MS Hotmail/Outlook/Live have good EAI support. In the open source world the two most popular mail packages Postfix and Exim have good EAI support. Roundcube webmail's EAI mostly works with bugs that don't look hard to fix. The missing piece of open source softwware is a full featured EAI IMAP/POP server. The Courier server works but it is missing all of the extra non-EAI stuff that Dovecot and Cyrus have. If the UASG wanted to spend some money, paying for EAI upgrades for those two packages would be a good place to do it. I haven't tested Oracle's mail package that is widely used by big companies but after talking to people there, it appears to have good EAI support, written by people who understand EAI well. Apparently many of Oracle's customers turn on L1 support to communicate with people elsewhere with EAI addresses, but nobody turns on L2 support because the mail addresses are invariably managed as part of their overall internal IT systems. Upgrading all of those to handle UTF-8 addresses would be an enormous and expensive task with very speculative payback. There is an old maxim that You Can't Change Just One Thing which definitely applies here. Getting mail packages to support EAI is a nice start, but there is much. much more involved in getting organizations to provide local language EAI addresses to all of their staff and users. R's, John
+1The missing piece of open source softwware is a full featured EAI IMAP/POP server. The Courier server works but it is missing all of the extra non-EAI stuff that Dovecot and Cyrus have. If the UASG wanted to spend some money, paying for EAI upgrades for those two packages would be a good place to do it.Отправлено с устройства Galaxy -------- Исходное сообщение --------От: John Levine <john.levine@standcore.com> Дата: 21.11.2020 22:43 (GMT+03:00) Кому: don@I2.org.nz, ua-discuss@icann.org Тема: Re: [UA-discuss] mail software On Sun, 22 Nov 2020, Don Hollander wrote:> I still hope that the UASG will be able to help seed some of the largest> email software providers.Gmail and MS Hotmail/Outlook/Live have good EAI support.In the open source world the two most popular mail packages Postfix and Exim have good EAI support. Roundcube webmail's EAI mostly works with bugs that don't look hard to fix.The missing piece of open source softwware is a full featured EAI IMAP/POP server. The Courier server works but it is missing all of the extra non-EAI stuff that Dovecot and Cyrus have. If the UASG wanted to spend some money, paying for EAI upgrades for those two packages would be a good place to do it.I haven't tested Oracle's mail package that is widely used by big companies but after talking to people there, it appears to havegood EAI support, written by people who understand EAI well.Apparently many of Oracle's customers turn on L1 support to communicate with people elsewhere with EAI addresses, but nobody turns on L2 support because the mail addresses are invariably managed as part of their overall internal IT systems. Upgrading all of those to handle UTF-8 addresses would be an enormous and expensive task with very speculative payback.There is an old maxim that You Can't Change Just One Thing which definitely applies here. Getting mail packages to support EAI is a nice start, but there is much. much more involved in getting organizations to provide local language EAI addresses to all of their staff and users.R's,John_______________________________________________UA-discuss mailing listUA-discuss@icann.orghttps://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ua-discuss____________________________... submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
As far as UA deployment strategy is concerned, India seems to be an outlier that can maybe be cited alongside Russia, isolated success cases in the midst of a lot of otherwise difficult and overly tentative relationships with governments. On the broader scheme of things, government engagement is time-consuming and time-limited, as every few years the people get shuffled and often progress on any given agenda can be dragged back to point zero. This can be observed in the GAC, in which, apart from some longstanding members, as much as 2/3 of the group gets replaced every 3 or so years. In other words, there is still has much more ROI to be gained from investing in fixing code and educating developers so that solutions get adopted by default in the future than there is in working with governments. These platforms that are royalty right now will eventually be replaced by others, as is always the case. When those get developed, hopefully it will be done with UA-ready code. Regards, On 11/21/2020 15:41, Don Hollander wrote:
And this, succinct answer from John, is true for every organisation.
Which is why Dr Data's approach of generating demand through big customers like government is still correct.
We have seen in India where he started with his local state and has moved to influence the entire nation of India.
China is another effort. Russia too.
That was the local initiative strategy set out a couple of years ago.
There have been some who have moved faster because it was the right thing to do - Microsoft for example. Google was an early leader mostly so that their own IDN's would actually work.
The 'Why Bother' question needs to be answered.
Tough one to justify.
I still hope that the UASG will be able to help seed some of the largest email software providers.
D
-----Original Message----- From: UA-discuss <ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org> On Behalf Of John Levine Sent: Sunday, 22 November 2020 7:33 AM To: Mark Datysgeld <mark@governanceprimer.com>; ua-discuss@icann.org Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] IDN treatment in Linkedin
How do we make them escalate the bug? Or no such mechanism? They'll escalate it if they believe it is a significant problem or that it affects a lot of their users. At this point, neither is the case so they'll get to it when they get to it.
On 11/20/2020 21:41, John Levine wrote:
In article <3c0369ba-f7bd-9ec8-5a3d-945251a02ef7@jdlh.com> you write:
https://helmstedt.dk/2020/11/how-i-failed-to-make-linkedin-fix-thei r-broken-url-parser-for-international-domain-names/ I asked someone at LI who said they know it's an issue but it's not a high prority to fix.
R's, John _______________________________________________ UA-discuss mailing list UA-discuss@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ua-discuss _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Regards, John Levine, john.levine@standcore.com Standcore LLC
_______________________________________________ UA-discuss mailing list UA-discuss@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ua-discuss _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
-- Mark W. Datysgeld from Governance Primer [www.markwd.website] ICANN GNSO Councilor
The one thing that might bump it up the priority list is to replicate it all over the site. If this is a one in 10-million problem, it isn't a problem. If it's a one in a thousand problem, it annoys many customers a day, and that gets attention. Alternatively, pay for them to fix it... cheers On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 13:35:49 +1100, Mark Datysgeld <mark@governanceprimer.com> wrote:
John,
How do we make them escalate the bug? Or no such mechanism?
Regards,
On 11/20/2020 21:41, John Levine wrote:
In article <3c0369ba-f7bd-9ec8-5a3d-945251a02ef7@jdlh.com> you write:
https://helmstedt.dk/2020/11/how-i-failed-to-make-linkedin-fix-their-broken-... I asked someone at LI who said they know it's an issue but it's not a high prority to fix.
R's, John _______________________________________________ UA-discuss mailing list UA-discuss@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ua-discuss _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
-- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
The challenge "how to escalate the bug" is very interesting and deep topic, regarding UA. Many UA issues stay unsolved, because of similar thing> "they know there is a bug, but it's not high priority to fix". In essence, Chaals is right - the bug's importance is in direct proportion with the number of annoyed users. But it means - those who are complaining about the same bug. If they see small number of complaints - "nah, users will survive", because there is many other things to be fixed, making much larger number of users annoyed. Today, we have a system "it's not a bug, it's a feature" - this LinkedIn UA bug was discovered years ago, and never corrected, and now it's like a feature for users. Users are used to use this bugs as a feature because> 1. It's normal that majority of IDN users doesn't speak English language, necessary to make a complaint. In fact - IDNs have that goal - to make Internet available for non-English (non-Latin) users. 2. For such a user it is hard to recognize this kind of bug. 3. If they recognize as a bug, it's very rare that they have the desire to fill a complaint. Just to highlight> UA issues are not the kind of bugs which will make clients stop using that service. 4. If they somehow want to fill a complaint, it's hard to find the right place to do so and then - let us go back to item number 1 - English language. Let me just say one example - simple copy from Google Chrome location bar, or Firefox, or Edge... will give you the sausage> https://xn--d1aholi.xn--90a3ac/o%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%B0%D... wherever you paste this (in Facebook post, in tweet, in Linkedin post... or in this email). In fact this is normal IDN link: https://рнидс.срб/организација This is still the basic problem with IDNs - wrong representation in many places, which becomes a feature for IDN users. Now - how to solve this? 1. To pay them? Not enough money in the UASG budget for all IDN issues there. And even if we have the money for that, there is easy money - if I am developer, I will break down IDN/UA option, waiting for money to fix them. 2. To fill the complaint on uasg.tech (option "log an issue")? UASG can try to contact the developer. 3. To encourage the community to fill separate complaints, one by one, in order to push the priority to fix for that issue higher? Maybe 4. To mix 2. And 3. is the most perfect solution. Do you see the fifth, or more ways to solve this? Cheers, Dusan -----Original Message----- From: UA-discuss [mailto:ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Charles 'chaals' (McCathie) Nevile Sent: 22. новембар 2020. 15:15 To: ua-discuss@icann.org Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] IDN treatment in Linkedin The one thing that might bump it up the priority list is to replicate it all over the site. If this is a one in 10-million problem, it isn't a problem. If it's a one in a thousand problem, it annoys many customers a day, and that gets attention. Alternatively, pay for them to fix it... cheers On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 13:35:49 +1100, Mark Datysgeld <mark@governanceprimer.com> wrote:
John,
How do we make them escalate the bug? Or no such mechanism?
Regards,
On 11/20/2020 21:41, John Levine wrote:
In article <3c0369ba-f7bd-9ec8-5a3d-945251a02ef7@jdlh.com> you write:
https://helmstedt.dk/2020/11/how-i-failed-to-make-linkedin-fix-thei r-broken-url-parser-for-international-domain-names/ I asked someone at LI who said they know it's an issue but it's not a high prority to fix.
R's, John _______________________________________________ UA-discuss mailing list UA-discuss@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ua-discuss _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
-- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ _______________________________________________ UA-discuss mailing list UA-discuss@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ua-discuss _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Paying a software company is not an option, it looks line an incentive for fixing what should been done (and not doing in expectation of being paid later ... who knows, maybe even commented code or pre-written modules to be activated). I think 4. is might be the best approach too. P.s: in our jurisdiction LinkedIn is banned for violating the personal information regulation law and not fixing it, so I am not sure IDNs is in their list of priorities. Sincerely Yours, Maxim Alzoba Special projects manager, International Relations Department, FAITID Current UTC offset: +3.00 (.Moscow)
On 22 Nov 2020, at 22:53, Dušan Stojičević <dusan@dukes.in.rs> wrote:
The challenge "how to escalate the bug" is very interesting and deep topic, regarding UA. Many UA issues stay unsolved, because of similar thing> "they know there is a bug, but it's not high priority to fix".
In essence, Chaals is right - the bug's importance is in direct proportion with the number of annoyed users. But it means - those who are complaining about the same bug. If they see small number of complaints - "nah, users will survive", because there is many other things to be fixed, making much larger number of users annoyed. Today, we have a system "it's not a bug, it's a feature" - this LinkedIn UA bug was discovered years ago, and never corrected, and now it's like a feature for users. Users are used to use this bugs as a feature because> 1. It's normal that majority of IDN users doesn't speak English language, necessary to make a complaint. In fact - IDNs have that goal - to make Internet available for non-English (non-Latin) users. 2. For such a user it is hard to recognize this kind of bug. 3. If they recognize as a bug, it's very rare that they have the desire to fill a complaint. Just to highlight> UA issues are not the kind of bugs which will make clients stop using that service. 4. If they somehow want to fill a complaint, it's hard to find the right place to do so and then - let us go back to item number 1 - English language.
Let me just say one example - simple copy from Google Chrome location bar, or Firefox, or Edge... will give you the sausage> https://xn--d1aholi.xn--90a3ac/o%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%B0%D... wherever you paste this (in Facebook post, in tweet, in Linkedin post... or in this email). In fact this is normal IDN link: https://рнидс.срб/организација
This is still the basic problem with IDNs - wrong representation in many places, which becomes a feature for IDN users.
Now - how to solve this? 1. To pay them? Not enough money in the UASG budget for all IDN issues there. And even if we have the money for that, there is easy money - if I am developer, I will break down IDN/UA option, waiting for money to fix them. 2. To fill the complaint on uasg.tech (option "log an issue")? UASG can try to contact the developer. 3. To encourage the community to fill separate complaints, one by one, in order to push the priority to fix for that issue higher? Maybe 4. To mix 2. And 3. is the most perfect solution.
Do you see the fifth, or more ways to solve this?
Cheers, Dusan
-----Original Message----- From: UA-discuss [mailto:ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Charles 'chaals' (McCathie) Nevile Sent: 22. новембар 2020. 15:15 To: ua-discuss@icann.org Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] IDN treatment in Linkedin
The one thing that might bump it up the priority list is to replicate it all over the site. If this is a one in 10-million problem, it isn't a problem. If it's a one in a thousand problem, it annoys many customers a day, and that gets attention.
Alternatively, pay for them to fix it...
cheers
On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 13:35:49 +1100, Mark Datysgeld <mark@governanceprimer.com> wrote:
John,
How do we make them escalate the bug? Or no such mechanism?
Regards,
On 11/20/2020 21:41, John Levine wrote:
In article <3c0369ba-f7bd-9ec8-5a3d-945251a02ef7@jdlh.com> you write:
https://helmstedt.dk/2020/11/how-i-failed-to-make-linkedin-fix-thei r-broken-url-parser-for-international-domain-names/ I asked someone at LI who said they know it's an issue but it's not a high prority to fix.
R's, John _______________________________________________ UA-discuss mailing list UA-discuss@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ua-discuss _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
-- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ _______________________________________________ UA-discuss mailing list UA-discuss@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ua-discuss _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
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participants (9)
-
Charles 'chaals' (McCathie) Nevile -
Don Hollander -
Dušan Stojičević -
Jim DeLaHunt -
John Levine -
Maria Kolesnikova -
Mark Datysgeld -
Maxim Alzoba -
Tan Tanaka, Dennis