Re: [UA-discuss] [UA-EAI] [Ext] Re: UA-EAI WG charter
Dear All Pardon for being candid, in several occasions over the last few months, alike me many of you must have also missed last leadership and people in secretariat specially Ram and Don. We envisage that transformation will bring progression for UASG conversely preceding six months signposts demise. Contemporary leadership botched to take essential conclusions proposed by community. So don’t anticipate prompt outcomes as in a community driven group things are completely running in silo. Retorts and harmonization has utterly extinct. Ram and DON can you endure energetically to safe guard curiosity of UASG community. Diana Arteaga On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 12:22 PM Houda CHIHI <houda.chihi@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear all;
i am interested in participating in travel support for ICANN66 how can i apply plz?
Kind regards!
Le jeu. 8 août 2019 à 17:11, richard nims <richnims@gmail.com> a écrit :
Dear all
I second Akinremi proposition, in every working group we must have provision to support atleast two-three members travel along with working group chair, like other supporting groups of ICANN we should have classification of travel support for members in UASG as well for ICANN meetings. I believe this will benefit members to be actively involved and contribute in UASG.
Hope UASG leadership will take these suggestions promising and introduce call for nomination for ICANN66 travel support for working group members.
Thank you
Nims
On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 12:00 AM Akinremi Peter Taiwo < compsoftnet@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you Sermad for getting back on the points raised and its consideration.
Well, I would suggest that a kind of onboarding programme is accommodated to build UA community by providing opportunity for some active community members to attend ICANN meetings where they would be able to learn more as against only the chairs of the working groups as mentioned in your email. I hope this is considered for the good of the community.
What about the observation for inclusion of Non Commercial Stakeholder in the work of UASG?
Regards Akinremi
On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 11:09 AM Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Thank you Akinremi.
*UA working group membership includes the working group member, including the appointed member and the observer…*
UASG leadership has considered the option you suggested and maintains that the WG should remain open to all community members to contribute, as per the UASG charter. All community members are encouraged to participate and contribute to the UASG efforts.
Regards, Sarmad
*From: *Akinremi Peter Taiwo <compsoftnet@gmail.com> *Date: *Wednesday, July 31, 2019 at 8:14 PM *To: *Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> *Cc: *"ua-eai@icann.org" <ua-eai@icann.org> *Subject: *Re: [Ext] Re: [UA-EAI] UA-EAI WG charter
Dear Sarmad,
See my comment in line please
On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 12:56 PM Sarmad Hussain < sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Thank you Akinremi.
The ”training and meeting” statement is general in nature. It is up to the WGs to decide on such events as part of their work, and in collaboration with other relevant WGs, e.g. the local initiatives.
*Agreed, that is is up to the working group. But the WGs need to have some sort of mechanism for the selection process e.g an open declaration of number of people that each WG will be sponsored for an ICANN meeting and guideline. *
The groups are open, but please suggest any explicit changes you would like to make to the membership list.
*I know the groups are open, but it should be clearly stated in the charter. I suggest the "attendance" keyword be changed to membership. Because attendance in meetings should be mandatory for WG members. I propose the following changes and I hope it will be considered.*
*"Membership: UA working group membership includes the working group member, including the appointed member and the observer. The Member has the responsibility to submit an expression of interest and participate in all the WG meetings. The observer can join the WGs without an expression of interest, and can only follow the WGs meetings but cannot contribute during the WG meeting. *
*I believe this will encourage active participation as against passive membership.*
As there are no restrictions on who can join the WG, those who would like to observe can sign up and choose to do so. But, please suggest if you would still like to explicitly specify this in the text.
*Also, I proposed that Non Commercial Stakeholder Community be added to the list UA members. That will ensure a balance in stakeholder representation and accord inclusiveness. *
*Many Regards.*
*Akinremi*
Regards, Sarmad
*From: *Akinremi Peter Taiwo <compsoftnet@gmail.com> *Date: *Wednesday, July 31, 2019 at 4:21 PM *To: *Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> *Cc: *"ua-eai@icann.org" <ua-eai@icann.org> *Subject: *[Ext] Re: [UA-EAI] UA-EAI WG charter
Dear Sermad and all,
Reading through the charter, I found this
"Any ICANN supported training and meeting or any ICANN supported travel will be boo
ked
t
hrough
ICANN org. This requires at least three month advance notice".
This does not state who will be trained or funded. It might be good to provide clarity and clearly state the ground for choosing those that would be supported for training and ICANN meeting. And it should be open to all.
Also, considering that many of the UA working groups are technical related, it will be good that the group can accommodate non commercial stakeholder or interest as this is one of the key constituent in the ICANN environment. And they can substantially to the ongoing discussion.
In addition, there is a need for provision for those that want to be an observer to observe the activities of the working group. I don't think, that is addressed in the charter.
My apologies if some of the points raised has been addressed.
Regar
ds.
Ak
inremi
On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 7:24 AM Sarmad Hussain < sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear All,
Here is a copy of the EAI WG charter, as discussed during the WG call today.
This is for your further review and feedback.
Regards, Sarmad
*From: *UA-EAI <ua-eai-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Sarmad Hussain < sarmad.hussain@icann.org> *Date: *Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 9:59 AM *To: *"ua-eai@icann.org" <ua-eai@icann.org> *Cc: *Petrus Amupadhi <AMPPET002@myuct.ac.za> *Subject: *[UA-EAI] UA-EAI WG Regular Call at UTC 0500-0600 on Tuesdays
We are starting now, for those intending to joing.
Regards, Sarmad
Dear UA-EAI Working Group members,
This is a placeholder for our regular fortnightly UA-EAI Working Group calls at UTC 0500-0600 on Tuesdays.
Regards, Sarmad
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<https://about.me/petertaiwoakinremi?promo=email_sig&utm_source=product&utm_m...> Peter Taiwo Akinremi about.me/petertaiwoakinremi <https://about.me/petertaiwoakinremi?promo=email_sig&utm_source=product&utm_m...> _______________________________________________ UA-EAI mailing list UA-EAI@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ua-eai
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I would like to note that I disagree with the recommendations about travel for multiple community members. The purpose of UASG should be to get non-compliant code changed and we should be using 95% of our resources to that goal. In the last couple of years we have become focused on promotion, branding, outreach, ambassadors, measurement, etc, which are all useful but have only an indirect impact on our goal. We are in danger of 95% of our resources going on these activities and our goal being achieved very, very slowly as a result. I would like to see travel limited to the chair and vice-chair attending only two icann meetings a year and the rest of our resources directly targeted at getting the code changed. Kind regards Jay (sent from my phone) -- Jay Daley Managing Director techobscura Limited +64 21 678840 skype: jaydaley
Jay, my perception is different. I have been involved in the old system, so it's certainly possible that I am just defending the old system out of reflex, but bear with me. I agree with you that our goal is to get noncompliant code changed. Our other activities are a means to that end. Coders don't change things unless they are aware of the issue and externally motivated to do it. That motivation comes from multiple sources. New noncompliant code will be created unless new coders are aware. And we can't change anything that we can't measure. As for resources, I truly wish we could spend more of them on code changes, but we've never been able to find enough subject matter experts willing to do the work for us at any price. Does that make sense? /marksv -----Original Message----- From: UA-discuss <ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org> On Behalf Of Jay Daley Sent: Friday, August 9, 2019 2:09 PM To: ua-discuss@icann.org; ua-eai@icann.org Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] [UA-EAI] [Ext] Re: UA-EAI WG charter I would like to note that I disagree with the recommendations about travel for multiple community members. The purpose of UASG should be to get non-compliant code changed and we should be using 95% of our resources to that goal. In the last couple of years we have become focused on promotion, branding, outreach, ambassadors, measurement, etc, which are all useful but have only an indirect impact on our goal. We are in danger of 95% of our resources going on these activities and our goal being achieved very, very slowly as a result. I would like to see travel limited to the chair and vice-chair attending only two icann meetings a year and the rest of our resources directly targeted at getting the code changed. Kind regards Jay (sent from my phone) -- Jay Daley Managing Director techobscura Limited +64 21 678840 skype: jaydaley _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icann.org%2Fprivacy%2Fpolicy&data=02%7C01%7Cmarksv%40microsoft.com%7C18e4a7272e554b9e959508d71d0dcfe3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637009817540173366&sdata=Gkx2EHhf9MVS2dqLMC%2F8fD6nGz02fwWUK1HqVvMJ5I8%3D&reserved=0) and the website Terms of Service (https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icann.org%2Fprivacy%2Ftos&data=02%7C01%7Cmarksv%40microsoft.com%7C18e4a7272e554b9e959508d71d0dcfe3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637009817540173366&sdata=ZBBm2ZqrwF0TR%2FF4JuJo%2FciOavFDpQ3HZ7aQAx5wB%2BE%3D&reserved=0). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Hi Mark
On 10/08/2019, at 9:25 AM, Mark Svancarek (CELA) <marksv@microsoft.com> wrote:
Jay, my perception is different. I have been involved in the old system, so it's certainly possible that I am just defending the old system out of reflex, but bear with me.
I should be clear that I am not criticising the previous leadership. They were responsive to the community’s wishes, as is proper, but the community direction was not direct enough.
I agree with you that our goal is to get noncompliant code changed. Our other activities are a means to that end.
Coders don't change things unless they are aware of the issue and externally motivated to do it. That motivation comes from multiple sources. New noncompliant code will be created unless new coders are aware.
I agree but there is a big difference between speaking directly to developers and general awareness, which can take years to achieve. Here are just some of the suggestions I have made previously to directly reach developers 1. Raise official bug reports in any non-compliant system that had a public issue tracker. Most code repositories have an issue tracker as a standard feature. 2. Publish very clear and detailed ‘official’ instructions on how to write compliant code, including recommended regular expressions for those that insist on using them and recommended live lookup code for people that code that way. The intent here is to fit with the current paradigm of the developer as closely as possible and minimise the work they need to do. 3. Offer developers a small amount of money, say $500 to motivate them to change their code. If we spent $1m on that I would regard it as a good investment. 4. Approach GitHub and others to run a ‘make your code compliant’ month where they promote our instructions directly on their site and to their users.
And we can't change anything that we can't measure.
I agree and I love measurement, it’s a huge part of my daily working life. However, repeatedly measuring something that is only moving very slowly is not a good use of resources.
As for resources, I truly wish we could spend more of them on code changes, but we've never been able to find enough subject matter experts willing to do the work for us at any price.
This really surprises me. I for one have offered and I’m sure there are others equally or better qualified than me.
Does that make sense?
Yes, thank you for the considered reply. Kind regards Jay -- Jay Daley Managing Director techobscura Limited +64 21 678840 skype: jaydaley
/marksv
-----Original Message----- From: UA-discuss <ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org> On Behalf Of Jay Daley Sent: Friday, August 9, 2019 2:09 PM To: ua-discuss@icann.org; ua-eai@icann.org Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] [UA-EAI] [Ext] Re: UA-EAI WG charter
I would like to note that I disagree with the recommendations about travel for multiple community members.
The purpose of UASG should be to get non-compliant code changed and we should be using 95% of our resources to that goal. In the last couple of years we have become focused on promotion, branding, outreach, ambassadors, measurement, etc, which are all useful but have only an indirect impact on our goal. We are in danger of 95% of our resources going on these activities and our goal being achieved very, very slowly as a result.
I would like to see travel limited to the chair and vice-chair attending only two icann meetings a year and the rest of our resources directly targeted at getting the code changed.
Kind regards Jay
(sent from my phone)
-- Jay Daley Managing Director techobscura Limited +64 21 678840 skype: jaydaley
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On 9 Aug 2019, at 18:02, Jay Daley wrote:
Hi Mark
As for resources, I truly wish we could spend more of them on code changes, but we've never been able to find enough subject matter experts willing to do the work for us at any price.
This really surprises me. I for one have offered
same here. Marc.
and I’m sure there are others equally or better qualified than me.
Does that make sense?
Yes, thank you for the considered reply.
Kind regards Jay
-- Jay Daley Managing Director techobscura Limited +64 21 678840 skype: jaydaley
/marksv
-----Original Message----- From: UA-discuss <ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org> On Behalf Of Jay Daley Sent: Friday, August 9, 2019 2:09 PM To: ua-discuss@icann.org; ua-eai@icann.org Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] [UA-EAI] [Ext] Re: UA-EAI WG charter
I would like to note that I disagree with the recommendations about travel for multiple community members.
The purpose of UASG should be to get non-compliant code changed and we should be using 95% of our resources to that goal. In the last couple of years we have become focused on promotion, branding, outreach, ambassadors, measurement, etc, which are all useful but have only an indirect impact on our goal. We are in danger of 95% of our resources going on these activities and our goal being achieved very, very slowly as a result.
I would like to see travel limited to the chair and vice-chair attending only two icann meetings a year and the rest of our resources directly targeted at getting the code changed.
Kind regards Jay
(sent from my phone)
-- Jay Daley Managing Director techobscura Limited +64 21 678840 skype: jaydaley
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Thanks for the fast response, Jay. It clarifies things for me. I have a few comments below, but I agree with what you say. 3. Offer developers a small amount of money, say $500 to motivate them to change their code. If we spent $1m on that I would regard it as a good investment. Marksv>>> We don't know how to do this in the ICANN system due to contractual complexity. 4. Approach GitHub and others to run a ‘make your code compliant’ month where they promote our instructions directly on their site and to their users. Marksv>>> I approached GitHub on another matter and they basically told me that it wasn't a priority. I figured I would take another run at them soon. This is a better idea than what I suggested last time.
As for resources, I truly wish we could spend more of them on code changes, but we've never been able to find enough subject matter experts willing to do the work for us at any price.
This really surprises me. I for one have offered and I’m sure there are others equally or better qualified than me. Marksv>>> Based on your response, and others, I may be misinformed about this. -----Original Message----- From: Jay Daley <jay@techobscura.com> Sent: Friday, August 9, 2019 3:03 PM To: Mark Svancarek (CELA) <marksv@microsoft.com> Cc: ua-discuss@icann.org; ua-eai@icann.org Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] [UA-EAI] [Ext] Re: UA-EAI WG charter Hi Mark
On 10/08/2019, at 9:25 AM, Mark Svancarek (CELA) <marksv@microsoft.com> wrote:
Jay, my perception is different. I have been involved in the old system, so it's certainly possible that I am just defending the old system out of reflex, but bear with me.
I should be clear that I am not criticising the previous leadership. They were responsive to the community’s wishes, as is proper, but the community direction was not direct enough.
I agree with you that our goal is to get noncompliant code changed. Our other activities are a means to that end.
Coders don't change things unless they are aware of the issue and externally motivated to do it. That motivation comes from multiple sources. New noncompliant code will be created unless new coders are aware.
I agree but there is a big difference between speaking directly to developers and general awareness, which can take years to achieve. Here are just some of the suggestions I have made previously to directly reach developers 1. Raise official bug reports in any non-compliant system that had a public issue tracker. Most code repositories have an issue tracker as a standard feature. 2. Publish very clear and detailed ‘official’ instructions on how to write compliant code, including recommended regular expressions for those that insist on using them and recommended live lookup code for people that code that way. The intent here is to fit with the current paradigm of the developer as closely as possible and minimise the work they need to do. 3. Offer developers a small amount of money, say $500 to motivate them to change their code. If we spent $1m on that I would regard it as a good investment. 4. Approach GitHub and others to run a ‘make your code compliant’ month where they promote our instructions directly on their site and to their users.
And we can't change anything that we can't measure.
I agree and I love measurement, it’s a huge part of my daily working life. However, repeatedly measuring something that is only moving very slowly is not a good use of resources.
As for resources, I truly wish we could spend more of them on code changes, but we've never been able to find enough subject matter experts willing to do the work for us at any price.
This really surprises me. I for one have offered and I’m sure there are others equally or better qualified than me.
Does that make sense?
Yes, thank you for the considered reply. Kind regards Jay -- Jay Daley Managing Director techobscura Limited +64 21 678840 skype: jaydaley
/marksv
-----Original Message----- From: UA-discuss <ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org> On Behalf Of Jay Daley Sent: Friday, August 9, 2019 2:09 PM To: ua-discuss@icann.org; ua-eai@icann.org Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] [UA-EAI] [Ext] Re: UA-EAI WG charter
I would like to note that I disagree with the recommendations about travel for multiple community members.
The purpose of UASG should be to get non-compliant code changed and we should be using 95% of our resources to that goal. In the last couple of years we have become focused on promotion, branding, outreach, ambassadors, measurement, etc, which are all useful but have only an indirect impact on our goal. We are in danger of 95% of our resources going on these activities and our goal being achieved very, very slowly as a result.
I would like to see travel limited to the chair and vice-chair attending only two icann meetings a year and the rest of our resources directly targeted at getting the code changed.
Kind regards Jay
(sent from my phone)
-- Jay Daley Managing Director techobscura Limited +64 21 678840 skype: jaydaley
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Hi Mark
3. Offer developers a small amount of money, say $500 to motivate them to change their code. If we spent $1m on that I would regard it as a good investment. Marksv>>> We don't know how to do this in the ICANN system due to contractual complexity.
That was raised and the alternatives I suggested were 1) to pay someone to submit patches to as many projects as possible along with any reasonable ‘patch processing fee’ or 2) pay someone to run a compliance bounty programme. Both of those are things we can contract out.
4. Approach GitHub and others to run a ‘make your code compliant’ month where they promote our instructions directly on their site and to their users. Marksv>>> I approached GitHub on another matter and they basically told me that it wasn't a priority. I figured I would take another run at them soon. This is a better idea than what I suggested last time.
I suggested that we pay them to do this to make it a priority.
As for resources, I truly wish we could spend more of them on code changes, but we've never been able to find enough subject matter experts willing to do the work for us at any price.
This really surprises me. I for one have offered and I’m sure there are others equally or better qualified than me.
Marksv>>> Based on your response, and others, I may be misinformed about this.
Thanks, good to know. Kind regards Jay -- Jay Daley Managing Director techobscura Limited +64 21 678840 skype: jaydaley
In article <B71902F5-E139-40C5-BC8D-9DAA6507FCA9@techobscura.com> you write:
Hi Mark
3. Offer developers a small amount of money, say $500 to motivate them to change their code. If we spent $1m on that I would regard it as a good investment. Marksv>>> We don't know how to do this in the ICANN system due to contractual complexity.
That was raised and the alternatives I suggested were 1) to pay someone to submit patches to as many projects as possible along with any reasonable ‘patch processing fee’ or 2) pay someone to run a compliance bounty programme. Both of those are things we can contract out.
I proposed a bounty program and ICANN said no. See https://eaibounty.standcore.com/ R's, John
Considering how cumbersome it is to establish a contract with ICANN, I see the only solution as pre-paying a contractor to look for and fix a set number of issues from target repositories. While it is unorthodox, it is what is possible within the constraints we have to work with. Regards, -- Mark W. Datysgeld from Governance Primer [www.markwd.website] In partnership with AR-TARC and the Brazilian Association of Software Companies (ABES) On August 9, 2019 10:02:24 PM GMT-03:00, John Levine <john.levine@standcore.com> wrote:
In article <B71902F5-E139-40C5-BC8D-9DAA6507FCA9@techobscura.com> you write:
Hi Mark
3. Offer developers a small amount of money, say $500 to motivate them to change their code. If we spent $1m on that I would regard it as a good investment. Marksv>>> We don't know how to do this in the ICANN system due to contractual complexity.
That was raised and the alternatives I suggested were 1) to pay someone to submit patches to as many projects as possible along with any reasonable ‘patch processing fee’ or 2) pay someone to run a compliance bounty programme. Both of those are things we can contract out.
I proposed a bounty program and ICANN said no.
See https://eaibounty.standcore.com/
R's, John
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Considering how cumbersome it is to establish a contract with ICANN, I see the only solution as pre-paying a contractor to look for and fix a set number of issues from target repositories.
That's what I proposed. They said no. Regards, John Levine, john.levine@standcore.com Standcore LLC
That's concerning. I wonder if there is any level of hand-holding we can do that they would accept. For example, we isolate the codes first and ship them to be fixed as a list. That way it's not a bounty... more like a regular research-style activity. On 09/08/2019 22:44, John Levine wrote:
Considering how cumbersome it is to establish a contract with ICANN, I see the only solution as pre-paying a contractor to look for and fix a set number of issues from target repositories.
That's what I proposed. They said no.
Regards, John Levine, john.levine@standcore.com Standcore LLC
-- Mark W. Datysgeld from Governance Primer [www.markwd.website] In partnership with AR-TARC and the Brazilian Association of Software Companies (ABES)
-----原始邮件----- 发件人: "Jay Daley" <jay@techobscura.com> 发送时间: 2019-08-10 06:49:51 (星期六) 收件人: "Mark Svancarek (CELA)" <marksv@microsoft.com> 抄送: "ua-discuss@icann.org" <ua-discuss@icann.org>, "ua-eai@icann.org" <ua-eai@icann.org> 主题: Re: [UA-discuss] [UA-EAI] [Ext] Re: UA-EAI WG charter
Hi Mark
3. Offer developers a small amount of money, say $500 to motivate them to change their code. If we spent $1m on that I would regard it as a good investment. Marksv>>> We don't know how to do this in the ICANN system due to contractual complexity.
That was raised and the alternatives I suggested were 1) to pay someone to submit patches to as many projects as possible along with any reasonable ‘patch processing fee’ or 2) pay someone to run a compliance bounty programme. Both of those are things we can contract out.
I appreciate your suggestion about giving more focus on code compliance for EAI. If all codes are ready for EAI, I think that EAI deployment will be successful soon. The total budget allocated to UA is around 1M every year. If without the volunteering work, the ‘patch processing fee’is sometimes very high. Even if all UA budgets are allocated to EAI patches, I think that it is still not enough to do it. For examples, Microsoft upgraded hotmail to support EAI. How much money would UASG pay? I think that it should cost Microsoft more than $1M. Actually, it is Microsoft's volunteering work. UASG paid nothing. As Mark said, UASG may Offer developers a small amount of money (prize), say $500 to motivate them to change their code. I think that UASG is a good platform to attract more volunteers to promote EAI/IDN. For examples, CNNIC sponsored postfix EAI patch development.(http://www.postfix.org/announcements/postfix-3.0.0.html). Two years ago, I suggested UASG to set up UA prize to honor those who do some contribution to UA deployment (such as coding compliance). Since UASG has not enough money to sponsor all code compliance, I think that it is time to discuss to set up some prizes for UA Hall of Fame (similar to Internet Hall of Fame) to honor those who would like to do /already have done some contribution to UA. UASG is a good platform to unite all UA volunteers to promote/contribute UA work. We can design some good mechanism to attract more volunteers to contribute UA work. Best Regards Jiankang Yao
Although I disagreed with Jay on the topics of outreach, ambassadors, promotion, etc., I want to say that I do agree that providing travel support more broadly than we do now is not a good idea. As the charter says, "...The UASG is envisioned to be an activity-oriented advocacy group, not a policy-oriented group. As a result, weighted representation is not expected, and participation from various stakeholders is expected to change over time and depending on the activities and priorities appropriate at various stages of the project." UASG membership is wide open, but travel assistance is approved on a case-by-case basis related to specific tasks, not related to affiliation. -----Original Message----- From: UA-discuss <ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org> On Behalf Of Jay Daley Sent: Friday, August 9, 2019 2:09 PM To: ua-discuss@icann.org; ua-eai@icann.org Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] [UA-EAI] [Ext] Re: UA-EAI WG charter I would like to note that I disagree with the recommendations about travel for multiple community members. The purpose of UASG should be to get non-compliant code changed and we should be using 95% of our resources to that goal. In the last couple of years we have become focused on promotion, branding, outreach, ambassadors, measurement, etc, which are all useful but have only an indirect impact on our goal. We are in danger of 95% of our resources going on these activities and our goal being achieved very, very slowly as a result. I would like to see travel limited to the chair and vice-chair attending only two icann meetings a year and the rest of our resources directly targeted at getting the code changed. Kind regards Jay (sent from my phone) -- Jay Daley Managing Director techobscura Limited +64 21 678840 skype: jaydaley _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icann.org%2Fprivacy%2Fpolicy&data=02%7C01%7Cmarksv%40microsoft.com%7C18e4a7272e554b9e959508d71d0dcfe3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637009817540173366&sdata=Gkx2EHhf9MVS2dqLMC%2F8fD6nGz02fwWUK1HqVvMJ5I8%3D&reserved=0) and the website Terms of Service (https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icann.org%2Fprivacy%2Ftos&data=02%7C01%7Cmarksv%40microsoft.com%7C18e4a7272e554b9e959508d71d0dcfe3%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637009817540173366&sdata=ZBBm2ZqrwF0TR%2FF4JuJo%2FciOavFDpQ3HZ7aQAx5wB%2BE%3D&reserved=0). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
I disagree Jay. We need entire internet community along with developers to achieve the goals of this group. Thanks, Harish Chowdhary On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 4:08 PM Jay Daley <jay@techobscura.com> wrote:
I would like to note that I disagree with the recommendations about travel for multiple community members.
The purpose of UASG should be to get non-compliant code changed and we should be using 95% of our resources to that goal. In the last couple of years we have become focused on promotion, branding, outreach, ambassadors, measurement, etc, which are all useful but have only an indirect impact on our goal. We are in danger of 95% of our resources going on these activities and our goal being achieved very, very slowly as a result.
I would like to see travel limited to the chair and vice-chair attending only two icann meetings a year and the rest of our resources directly targeted at getting the code changed.
Kind regards Jay
(sent from my phone)
-- Jay Daley Managing Director techobscura Limited +64 21 678840 skype: jaydaley
_______________________________________________ UA-EAI mailing list UA-EAI@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ua-eai
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-- *Thanks,Harish Chowdhary,Technology Analyst* www.indiaig.in
I don’t believe anyone is suggesting we need to solely focus on one audience or the other. The UASG has limited resources (time, people, funds, etc.), so the key to our success is to find our priorities and execute. Question is, what does the UASG solve for first? usability or awareness. I think we ought to focus first on usability, that is, make software work. Influence developers and the like to expand their assumptions vis-à-vis i18n. Fix code. Along these lines, there is an awareness component, but focused on people that work on code. As the applications ecosystem becomes UA-ready, the next phase may be a wider effort of awareness targeted to general end-users to increase usage, and hopefully adoption. UASG is also looking at working to outreach governments, as consumers of technology. The hope is to educate and inform these organizations about the latest developments on online identifiers, so that their systems keep up with them. -Dennis From: UA-EAI <ua-eai-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Harish Chowdhary <intern3tgovernance@gmail.com> Date: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 at 8:07 AM To: Jay Daley <jay@techobscura.com> Cc: "UA-discuss@icann.org" <ua-discuss@icann.org>, "ua-eai@icann.org" <ua-eai@icann.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [UA-EAI] [UA-discuss] [Ext] Re: UA-EAI WG charter I disagree Jay. We need entire internet community along with developers to achieve the goals of this group. Thanks, Harish Chowdhary On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 4:08 PM Jay Daley <jay@techobscura.com<mailto:jay@techobscura.com>> wrote: I would like to note that I disagree with the recommendations about travel for multiple community members. The purpose of UASG should be to get non-compliant code changed and we should be using 95% of our resources to that goal. In the last couple of years we have become focused on promotion, branding, outreach, ambassadors, measurement, etc, which are all useful but have only an indirect impact on our goal. We are in danger of 95% of our resources going on these activities and our goal being achieved very, very slowly as a result. I would like to see travel limited to the chair and vice-chair attending only two icann meetings a year and the rest of our resources directly targeted at getting the code changed. Kind regards Jay (sent from my phone) -- Jay Daley Managing Director techobscura Limited +64 21 678840 skype: jaydaley _______________________________________________ UA-EAI mailing list UA-EAI@icann.org<mailto:UA-EAI@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ua-eai _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. -- Thanks, Harish Chowdhary, Technology Analyst www.indiaig.in<http://www.indiaig.in>
+1 Dennis Sent from my iPhone On Aug 13, 2019, at 3:19 PM, Tan Tanaka, Dennis via UA-discuss <ua-discuss@icann.org> wrote: I don’t believe anyone is suggesting we need to solely focus on one audience or the other. The UASG has limited resources (time, people, funds, etc.), so the key to our success is to find our priorities and execute. Question is, what does the UASG solve for first? usability or awareness. I think we ought to focus first on usability, that is, make software work. Influence developers and the like to expand their assumptions vis-à-vis i18n. Fix code. Along these lines, there is an awareness component, but focused on people that work on code. As the applications ecosystem becomes UA-ready, the next phase may be a wider effort of awareness targeted to general end-users to increase usage, and hopefully adoption. UASG is also looking at working to outreach governments, as consumers of technology. The hope is to educate and inform these organizations about the latest developments on online identifiers, so that their systems keep up with them. -Dennis From: UA-EAI <ua-eai-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Harish Chowdhary <intern3tgovernance@gmail.com> Date: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 at 8:07 AM To: Jay Daley <jay@techobscura.com> Cc: "UA-discuss@icann.org" <ua-discuss@icann.org>, "ua-eai@icann.org" <ua-eai@icann.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [UA-EAI] [UA-discuss] [Ext] Re: UA-EAI WG charter I disagree Jay. We need entire internet community along with developers to achieve the goals of this group. Thanks, Harish Chowdhary On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 4:08 PM Jay Daley <jay@techobscura.com<mailto:jay@techobscura.com>> wrote: I would like to note that I disagree with the recommendations about travel for multiple community members. The purpose of UASG should be to get non-compliant code changed and we should be using 95% of our resources to that goal. In the last couple of years we have become focused on promotion, branding, outreach, ambassadors, measurement, etc, which are all useful but have only an indirect impact on our goal. We are in danger of 95% of our resources going on these activities and our goal being achieved very, very slowly as a result. I would like to see travel limited to the chair and vice-chair attending only two icann meetings a year and the rest of our resources directly targeted at getting the code changed. Kind regards Jay (sent from my phone) -- Jay Daley Managing Director techobscura Limited +64 21 678840 skype: jaydaley _______________________________________________ UA-EAI mailing list UA-EAI@icann.org<mailto:UA-EAI@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ua-eai _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. -- Thanks, Harish Chowdhary, Technology Analyst www.indiaig.in<http://www.indiaig.in> _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Dear dennisThank you for hitting the right nail..completely agree that we should not deviate from the primary motives and working to outreach.RegardsNitin WaliaDirector Sent from Xgenplus app on my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. -------- Original message --------From: "Tan Tanaka, Dennis via UA-discuss" <ua-discuss@icann.org> Date: 13/08/2019 18:46 (GMT+05:30) To: Harish Chowdhary <intern3tgovernance@gmail.com>, Jay Daley <jay@techobscura.com> Cc: ua-discuss@icann.org, ua-eai@icann.org Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] [UA-EAI] [Ext] Re: UA-EAI WG charter I don’t believe anyone is suggesting we need to solely focus on one audience or the other. The UASG has limited resources (time, people, funds, etc.), so the key to our success is to find our priorities and execute. Question is, what does the UASG solve for first? usability or awareness. I think we ought to focus first on usability, that is, make software work. Influence developers and the like to expand their assumptions vis-à-vis i18n. Fix code. Along these lines, there is an awareness component, but focused on people that work on code. As the applications ecosystem becomes UA-ready, the next phase may be a wider effort of awareness targeted to general end-users to increase usage, and hopefully adoption. UASG is also looking at working to outreach governments, as consumers of technology. The hope is to educate and inform these organizations about the latest developments on online identifiers, so that their systems keep up with them. -Dennis From: UA-EAI <ua-eai-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Harish Chowdhary <intern3tgovernance@gmail.com> Date: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 at 8:07 AM To: Jay Daley <jay@techobscura.com> Cc: "UA-discuss@icann.org" <ua-discuss@icann.org>, "ua-eai@icann.org" <ua-eai@icann.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [UA-EAI] [UA-discuss] [Ext] Re: UA-EAI WG charter I disagree Jay. We need entire internet community along with developers to achieve the goals of this group. Thanks, Harish Chowdhary On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 4:08 PM Jay Daley <jay@techobscura.com> wrote: I would like to note that I disagree with the recommendations about travel for multiple community members. The purpose of UASG should be to get non-compliant code changed and we should be using 95% of our resources to that goal. In the last couple of years we have become focused on promotion, branding, outreach, ambassadors, measurement, etc, which are all useful but have only an indirect impact on our goal. We are in danger of 95% of our resources going on these activities and our goal being achieved very, very slowly as a result. I would like to see travel limited to the chair and vice-chair attending only two icann meetings a year and the rest of our resources directly targeted at getting the code changed. Kind regards Jay (sent from my phone) -- Jay Daley Managing Director techobscura Limited +64 21 678840 skype: jaydaley _______________________________________________ UA-EAI mailing list UA-EAI@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ua-eai _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. -- Thanks, Harish Chowdhary, Technology Analyst www.indiaig.in
While I agree with the focus on code, I have to insist that we need a working model to do it. If there is not a consistent process, we won't be able to advance. Over my time as an Ambassador, one thing that happens often is that devs become convinced that UA is good and ask how they can solve issues on their side. We can point them to the relevant RFCs, talk about the available i18n libraries, show Case Studies and so on... but that is the same as saying "you figure it out". We either need an A) team of paid UA coders that we can deploy to solve the problems of target clients, B) a robust bug bounty system, or C) develop a set of in-house fixes to common languages/implementations that we can point to. We have none of these. If we want to advance in this direction, this is what it takes. Regards, -- Mark W. Datysgeld from Governance Primer [www.markwd.website] In partnership with AR-TARC and the Brazilian Association of Software Companies (ABES) On August 13, 2019 11:20:40 AM GMT-03:00, nitin <nitin@data.in> wrote:
Dear dennisThank you for hitting the right nail..completely agree that we should not deviate from the primary motives and working to outreach.RegardsNitin WaliaDirector Sent from Xgenplus app on my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. -------- Original message --------From: "Tan Tanaka, Dennis via UA-discuss" <ua-discuss@icann.org> Date: 13/08/2019 18:46 (GMT+05:30) To: Harish Chowdhary <intern3tgovernance@gmail.com>, Jay Daley <jay@techobscura.com> Cc: ua-discuss@icann.org, ua-eai@icann.org Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] [UA-EAI] [Ext] Re: UA-EAI WG charter
I don’t believe anyone is suggesting we need to solely focus on one audience or the other. The UASG has limited resources (time, people, funds, etc.), so the key to our success is to find our priorities and execute. Question is, what does the UASG solve for first? usability or awareness. I think we ought to focus first on usability, that is, make software work. Influence developers and the like to expand their assumptions vis-à-vis i18n. Fix code. Along these lines, there is an awareness component, but focused on people that work on code. As the applications ecosystem becomes UA-ready, the next phase may be a wider effort of awareness targeted to general end-users to increase usage, and hopefully adoption. UASG is also looking at working to outreach governments, as consumers of technology. The hope is to educate and inform these organizations about the latest developments on online identifiers, so that their systems keep up with them. -Dennis
From: UA-EAI <ua-eai-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Harish Chowdhary <intern3tgovernance@gmail.com> Date: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 at 8:07 AM To: Jay Daley <jay@techobscura.com> Cc: "UA-discuss@icann.org" <ua-discuss@icann.org>, "ua-eai@icann.org" <ua-eai@icann.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [UA-EAI] [UA-discuss] [Ext] Re: UA-EAI WG charter
I disagree Jay. We need entire internet community along with developers to achieve the goals of this group.
Thanks,
Harish Chowdhary
On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 4:08 PM Jay Daley <jay@techobscura.com> wrote:
I would like to note that I disagree with the recommendations about travel for multiple community members.
The purpose of UASG should be to get non-compliant code changed and we should be using 95% of our resources to that goal. In the last couple of years we have become focused on promotion, branding, outreach, ambassadors, measurement, etc, which are all useful but have only an indirect impact on our goal. We are in danger of 95% of our resources going on these activities and our goal being achieved very, very slowly as a result.
I would like to see travel limited to the chair and vice-chair attending only two icann meetings a year and the rest of our resources directly targeted at getting the code changed.
Kind regards Jay
(sent from my phone)
-- Jay Daley Managing Director techobscura Limited +64 21 678840 skype: jaydaley
_______________________________________________ UA-EAI mailing list UA-EAI@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ua-eai
_______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
--
Thanks, Harish Chowdhary, Technology Analyst
www.indiaig.in
On 14/08/2019, at 6:25 AM, Mark W. Datysgeld <mark@governanceprimer.com> wrote:
While I agree with the focus on code, I have to insist that we need a working model to do it. If there is not a consistent process, we won't be able to advance.
Over my time as an Ambassador, one thing that happens often is that devs become convinced that UA is good and ask how they can solve issues on their side. We can point them to the relevant RFCs, talk about the available i18n libraries, show Case Studies and so on... but that is the same as saying "you figure it out".
We either need an A) team of paid UA coders that we can deploy to solve the problems of target clients, B) a robust bug bounty system, or C) develop a set of in-house fixes to common languages/implementations that we can point to. We have none of these.
If we want to advance in this direction, this is what it takes.
Completely agree. We need almost total focus on this. Jay
Regards, -- Mark W. Datysgeld from Governance Primer [www.markwd.website] In partnership with AR-TARC and the Brazilian Association of Software Companies (ABES)
On August 13, 2019 11:20:40 AM GMT-03:00, nitin <nitin@data.in> wrote: Dear dennis
Thank you for hitting the right nail..completely agree that we should not deviate from the primary motives and working to outreach.
Regards
Nitin Walia Director Sent from Xgenplus app on my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message -------- From: "Tan Tanaka, Dennis via UA-discuss" <ua-discuss@icann.org> Date: 13/08/2019 18:46 (GMT+05:30) To: Harish Chowdhary <intern3tgovernance@gmail.com>, Jay Daley <jay@techobscura.com> Cc: ua-discuss@icann.org, ua-eai@icann.org Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] [UA-EAI] [Ext] Re: UA-EAI WG charter
I don’t believe anyone is suggesting we need to solely focus on one audience or the other. The UASG has limited resources (time, people, funds, etc.), so the key to our success is to find our priorities and execute.
Question is, what does the UASG solve for first? usability or awareness. I think we ought to focus first on usability, that is, make software work. Influence developers and the like to expand their assumptions vis-à-vis i18n. Fix code. Along these lines, there is an awareness component, but focused on people that work on code. As the applications ecosystem becomes UA-ready, the next phase may be a wider effort of awareness targeted to general end-users to increase usage, and hopefully adoption.
UASG is also looking at working to outreach governments, as consumers of technology. The hope is to educate and inform these organizations about the latest developments on online identifiers, so that their systems keep up with them.
-Dennis
From: UA-EAI <ua-eai-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Harish Chowdhary <intern3tgovernance@gmail.com> Date: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 at 8:07 AM To: Jay Daley <jay@techobscura.com> Cc: "UA-discuss@icann.org" <ua-discuss@icann.org>, "ua-eai@icann.org" <ua-eai@icann.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [UA-EAI] [UA-discuss] [Ext] Re: UA-EAI WG charter
I disagree Jay. We need entire internet community along with developers to achieve the goals of this group.
Thanks,
Harish Chowdhary
On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 4:08 PM Jay Daley <jay@techobscura.com <mailto:jay@techobscura.com>> wrote:
I would like to note that I disagree with the recommendations about travel for multiple community members.
The purpose of UASG should be to get non-compliant code changed and we should be using 95% of our resources to that goal. In the last couple of years we have become focused on promotion, branding, outreach, ambassadors, measurement, etc, which are all useful but have only an indirect impact on our goal. We are in danger of 95% of our resources going on these activities and our goal being achieved very, very slowly as a result.
I would like to see travel limited to the chair and vice-chair attending only two icann meetings a year and the rest of our resources directly targeted at getting the code changed.
Kind regards Jay
(sent from my phone)
-- Jay Daley Managing Director techobscura Limited +64 21 678840 skype: jaydaley
_______________________________________________ UA-EAI mailing list UA-EAI@icann.org <mailto:UA-EAI@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ua-eai <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ua-eai>
_______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy <https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy>) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos <https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos>). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
--
Thanks, Harish Chowdhary, Technology Analyst
www.indiaig.in <http://www.indiaig.in/>
-- Jay Daley Managing Director techobscura Limited +64 21 678840 skype: jaydaley linkedin: www.linkedin.com/in/jaydaley
+1 r On 14.08.2019, at 11:04, Vittorio Bertola via UA-discuss <ua-discuss@icann.org<mailto:ua-discuss@icann.org>> wrote: Il 13 agosto 2019 20:25 Mark W. Datysgeld <mark@governanceprimer.com<mailto:mark@governanceprimer.com>> ha scritto: While I agree with the focus on code, I have to insist that we need a working model to do it. If there is not a consistent process, we won't be able to advance. Over my time as an Ambassador, one thing that happens often is that devs become convinced that UA is good and ask how they can solve issues on their side. We can point them to the relevant RFCs, talk about the available i18n libraries, show Case Studies and so on... but that is the same as saying "you figure it out". We either need an A) team of paid UA coders that we can deploy to solve the problems of target clients, B) a robust bug bounty system, or C) develop a set of in-house fixes to common languages/implementations that we can point to. We have none of these. If we want to advance in this direction, this is what it takes. In my experience, however, convincing the developers is not enough. Unless what you are targeting is a small scale free software project, the developers will be part of a bigger organization in which what goes into the product is not decided by them, but by a product manager. The product manager will only let the developers work on features that make business sense, i.e. that someone has asked for; and that someone must be either a significant paying customer, or a sufficient number of final users to make the product manager think that this new feature is vital to the competitiveness of the product. Having paid development resources to do the coding might help, but still it is not enough. No professional software maker - even the open source ones - will let external code into their product without going through proper review and testing by internal resources, and this - especially for changes distributed throughout several core parts of the code - still takes some investment, which will not be approved if the new feature does not meet the requirements above. So, to make this happen, paid coding effort is fine but priority #1 is creating strong and widespread demand for UA support. Again as an example, I tried to exploit the fact that one of our customers has recently made a big deployment of our software in India to suggest that their final customers were likely to want EAI, at least in terms of interoperating with external EAI addresses; the reply was "not a single one of them ever asked for it or made a support call because EAI was not working". This is the discouraging aspect and this is what needs to be changed first - the rest will follow. -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com<mailto:vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com> Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
On 14 Aug 2019, at 5:04, Vittorio Bertola via UA-discuss wrote:
Il 13 agosto 2019 20:25 Mark W. Datysgeld <mark@governanceprimer.com> ha scritto:
While I agree with the focus on code, I have to insist that we need a working model to do it. If there is not a consistent process, we won't be able to advance.
Over my time as an Ambassador, one thing that happens often is that devs become convinced that UA is good and ask how they can solve issues on their side. We can point them to the relevant RFCs, talk about the available i18n libraries, show Case Studies and so on... but that is the same as saying "you figure it out".
We either need an A) team of paid UA coders that we can deploy to solve the problems of target clients, B) a robust bug bounty system, or C) develop a set of in-house fixes to common languages/implementations that we can point to. We have none of these.
If we want to advance in this direction, this is what it takes.
In my experience, however, convincing the developers is not enough. Unless what you are targeting is a small scale free software project, the developers will be part of a bigger organization in which what goes into the product is not decided by them, but by a product manager. The product manager will only let the developers work on features that make business sense, i.e. that someone has asked for; and that someone must be either a significant paying customer, or a sufficient number of final users to make the product manager think that this new feature is vital to the competitiveness of the product.
Having paid development resources to do the coding might help, but still it is not enough. No professional software maker - even the open source ones - will let external code into their product without going through proper review and testing by internal resources, and this - especially for changes distributed throughout several core parts of the code - still takes some investment, which will not be approved if the new feature does not meet the requirements above.
I agree with your assessment but not for all projects and and not for all cases. Open source projects have a wide variety of governance models, one is similar to what you describe, which is often the case of a commercial offering with open source (often called community version) version, often more limited in functionality. In this context, their willingness to either fix an issue or to merge a PR that fixes the issue may be low or depending on customer demand. However, even that, it might also happen anyway, since there is also a gain for that company/community to fix bugs or support new features. So even for those kind of projects, it is very possible that the fix will be merged. Now, for other governance models, the likelihood to accept fixes or to do it themselves is much higher. If we are smart, we could choose the projects that have most impacts, that the fix is not too big, and that the fix is likely to be accepted and merged.
So, to make this happen, paid coding effort is fine but priority #1 is creating strong and widespread demand for UA support. Again as an example, I tried to exploit the fact that one of our customers has recently made a big deployment of our software in India to suggest that their final customers were likely to want EAI, at least in terms of interoperating with external EAI addresses; the reply was "not a single one of them ever asked for it or made a support call because EAI was not working". This is the discouraging aspect and this is what needs to be changed first - the rest will follow.
I disagree with your conclusion. I think it is a mix of both (demand and supply support). It is a typical chicken and egg situation, that happens often in deploying new technologies that are « enhancements ». Building strong demand for UA support costs 100 times more than fixing the bugs. Marketing costs much more than development. But I would take your point and build on it. If we find some organisations who have big impact and can convince them to create demand for UA, then we could have what your are looking for. Maybe Google, Facebook, Tencent, … are of those organisations that could have impacts. ICANN do have links to these organisations, maybe not the exact right contact, but an entry point. Maybe we can look from this point of view. Cost (almost zero) and probably have much higher impact than a big marketing campaign to create strong demand for UA support. At this time, given limited resources, I think we shall concentrate on having languages, librairies, frameworks and various main opensource apps that have most impact to fully support UA. This is achievable and have impact. Then it will be easier to start building demand. Regards, Marc.
\--
Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange [vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com](<mailto:vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com>) Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy
_______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Everyone, one trend I am observing here is that we don't particularly have a consensus on what software should be tackled and in what order. I know we conceptually understand what needs to be done, but we don't have that list. We also don't know the split between open and closed source of our targets. The Measurement and Tech groups should collaborate to make such a list, even if it's a fast and loose one, so that we can look at it and say: "okay, these are the underlying coding languages we want to tackle, these are the libraries that exist, these are the libraries that do not exist, these are the end-user applications that are more relevant to us". At Measurement this has been started to some degree, but not with this focus. If we know this information, we can then actively challenge ICANN to create a working model in which directed outreach could be done and especially patches for open source software could be ordered. We would be more effective. I don't mind leading this, but I would defer to the more experienced members of the community who have a deeper inside into this. Regards, -- Mark W. Datysgeld from Governance Primer [www.markwd.website] In partnership with AR-TARC and the Brazilian Association of Software Companies (ABES) On August 14, 2019 8:44:39 AM GMT-03:00, Marc Blanchet <marc.blanchet@viagenie.ca> wrote:
On 14 Aug 2019, at 5:04, Vittorio Bertola via UA-discuss wrote:
Il 13 agosto 2019 20:25 Mark W. Datysgeld <mark@governanceprimer.com> ha scritto:
While I agree with the focus on code, I have to insist that we need a working model to do it. If there is not a consistent process, we won't be able to advance.
Over my time as an Ambassador, one thing that happens often is that
devs become convinced that UA is good and ask how they can solve issues on their side. We can point them to the relevant RFCs, talk about the available i18n libraries, show Case Studies and so on... but that is the same as saying "you figure it out".
We either need an A) team of paid UA coders that we can deploy to solve the problems of target clients, B) a robust bug bounty system,
or C) develop a set of in-house fixes to common languages/implementations that we can point to. We have none of these.
If we want to advance in this direction, this is what it takes.
In my experience, however, convincing the developers is not enough. Unless what you are targeting is a small scale free software project,
the developers will be part of a bigger organization in which what goes into the product is not decided by them, but by a product manager. The product manager will only let the developers work on features that make business sense, i.e. that someone has asked for; and that someone must be either a significant paying customer, or a sufficient number of final users to make the product manager think that this new feature is vital to the competitiveness of the product.
Having paid development resources to do the coding might help, but still it is not enough. No professional software maker - even the open source ones - will let external code into their product without going
through proper review and testing by internal resources, and this - especially for changes distributed throughout several core parts of the code - still takes some investment, which will not be approved if
the new feature does not meet the requirements above.
I agree with your assessment but not for all projects and and not for all cases. Open source projects have a wide variety of governance models, one is similar to what you describe, which is often the case of
a commercial offering with open source (often called community version)
version, often more limited in functionality. In this context, their willingness to either fix an issue or to merge a PR that fixes the issue may be low or depending on customer demand. However, even that, it might also happen anyway, since there is also a gain for that company/community to fix bugs or support new features. So even for those kind of projects, it is very possible that the fix will be merged.
Now, for other governance models, the likelihood to accept fixes or to do it themselves is much higher.
If we are smart, we could choose the projects that have most impacts, that the fix is not too big, and that the fix is likely to be accepted and merged.
So, to make this happen, paid coding effort is fine but priority #1
is
creating strong and widespread demand for UA support. Again as an example, I tried to exploit the fact that one of our customers has recently made a big deployment of our software in India to suggest that their final customers were likely to want EAI, at least in terms
of interoperating with external EAI addresses; the reply was "not a single one of them ever asked for it or made a support call because EAI was not working". This is the discouraging aspect and this is what needs to be changed first - the rest will follow.
I disagree with your conclusion. I think it is a mix of both (demand and supply support). It is a typical chicken and egg situation, that happens often in deploying new technologies that are « enhancements ». Building strong demand for UA support costs 100 times more than fixing the bugs. Marketing costs much more than development.
But I would take your point and build on it. If we find some organisations who have big impact and can convince them to create demand for UA, then we could have what your are looking for. Maybe Google, Facebook, Tencent, … are of those organisations that could have impacts. ICANN do have links to these organisations, maybe not the exact right contact, but an entry point. Maybe we can look from this point of
view. Cost (almost zero) and probably have much higher impact than a big marketing campaign to create strong demand for UA support.
At this time, given limited resources, I think we shall concentrate on having languages, librairies, frameworks and various main opensource apps that have most impact to fully support UA. This is achievable and have impact. Then it will be easier to start building demand.
Regards, Marc.
\--
Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
[vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com](<mailto:vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com>)
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy
_______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the
Mailman
link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
On Wed, 14 Aug 2019 13:44:39 +0200, Marc Blanchet <marc.blanchet@viagenie.ca> wrote:
But I would take your point and build on it. If we find some organisations who have big impact and can convince them to create demand for UA, then we could have what your are looking for...Maybe we can look from this point of view. Cost (almost zero) and probably have much higher impact than a big marketing campaign to create strong demand for UA support.
In any event, creating an expensive marketing campaign to develop demand for something we assert is useful seems a bit backwards. It is true that it is important to let people know they *can* ask for some things, like EAI. But I agree that it is reasonable to let the demand grow because people see examples and want that too, rather than trying to sell it to them... cheers -- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Although I agree with Dennis that we need to prioritise, I wonder whether the human resources involved in usability and awareness are different. I am thinking, for instance, about the internet user community that by and large does not have the technical skills for fixing problems, but can promote Universal Acceptance. This can be done without much additional resources, but doing things like, for instance, making sure that in all meetings that each of us attends there is a session or at least some side discussions about UA. Cheers, R> On 13.08.2019, at 15:16, Tan Tanaka, Dennis via UA-discuss <ua-discuss@icann.org<mailto:ua-discuss@icann.org>> wrote: I don’t believe anyone is suggesting we need to solely focus on one audience or the other. The UASG has limited resources (time, people, funds, etc.), so the key to our success is to find our priorities and execute. Question is, what does the UASG solve for first? usability or awareness. I think we ought to focus first on usability, that is, make software work. Influence developers and the like to expand their assumptions vis-à-vis i18n. Fix code. Along these lines, there is an awareness component, but focused on people that work on code. As the applications ecosystem becomes UA-ready, the next phase may be a wider effort of awareness targeted to general end-users to increase usage, and hopefully adoption. UASG is also looking at working to outreach governments, as consumers of technology. The hope is to educate and inform these organizations about the latest developments on online identifiers, so that their systems keep up with them. -Dennis From: UA-EAI <ua-eai-bounces@icann.org<mailto:ua-eai-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Harish Chowdhary <intern3tgovernance@gmail.com<mailto:intern3tgovernance@gmail.com>> Date: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 at 8:07 AM To: Jay Daley <jay@techobscura.com<mailto:jay@techobscura.com>> Cc: "UA-discuss@icann.org<mailto:UA-discuss@icann.org>" <ua-discuss@icann.org<mailto:ua-discuss@icann.org>>, "ua-eai@icann.org<mailto:ua-eai@icann.org>" <ua-eai@icann.org<mailto:ua-eai@icann.org>> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [UA-EAI] [UA-discuss] [Ext] Re: UA-EAI WG charter I disagree Jay. We need entire internet community along with developers to achieve the goals of this group. Thanks, Harish Chowdhary On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 4:08 PM Jay Daley <jay@techobscura.com<mailto:jay@techobscura.com>> wrote: I would like to note that I disagree with the recommendations about travel for multiple community members. The purpose of UASG should be to get non-compliant code changed and we should be using 95% of our resources to that goal. In the last couple of years we have become focused on promotion, branding, outreach, ambassadors, measurement, etc, which are all useful but have only an indirect impact on our goal. We are in danger of 95% of our resources going on these activities and our goal being achieved very, very slowly as a result. I would like to see travel limited to the chair and vice-chair attending only two icann meetings a year and the rest of our resources directly targeted at getting the code changed. Kind regards Jay (sent from my phone) -- Jay Daley Managing Director techobscura Limited +64 21 678840 skype: jaydaley _______________________________________________ UA-EAI mailing list UA-EAI@icann.org<mailto:UA-EAI@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ua-eai _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. -- Thanks, Harish Chowdhary, Technology Analyst www.indiaig.in<http://www.indiaig.in/> _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Dear All, I agree with UASG is looking at working to outreach governments, since they don't pay a lot of effort to educate their technical teams about the latest developments on online identifiers, so that their systems may not be up-to-date. Best Regards, Ahlam
On Aug 13, 2019, at 9:24 PM, Roberto Gaetano <roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote:
Although I agree with Dennis that we need to prioritise, I wonder whether the human resources involved in usability and awareness are different. I am thinking, for instance, about the internet user community that by and large does not have the technical skills for fixing problems, but can promote Universal Acceptance. This can be done without much additional resources, but doing things like, for instance, making sure that in all meetings that each of us attends there is a session or at least some side discussions about UA. Cheers, R>
On 13.08.2019, at 15:16, Tan Tanaka, Dennis via UA-discuss <ua-discuss@icann.org> wrote:
I don’t believe anyone is suggesting we need to solely focus on one audience or the other. The UASG has limited resources (time, people, funds, etc.), so the key to our success is to find our priorities and execute.
Question is, what does the UASG solve for first? usability or awareness. I think we ought to focus first on usability, that is, make software work. Influence developers and the like to expand their assumptions vis-à-vis i18n. Fix code. Along these lines, there is an awareness component, but focused on people that work on code. As the applications ecosystem becomes UA-ready, the next phase may be a wider effort of awareness targeted to general end-users to increase usage, and hopefully adoption.
UASG is also looking at working to outreach governments, as consumers of technology. The hope is to educate and inform these organizations about the latest developments on online identifiers, so that their systems keep up with them.
-Dennis
From: UA-EAI <ua-eai-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Harish Chowdhary <intern3tgovernance@gmail.com> Date: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 at 8:07 AM To: Jay Daley <jay@techobscura.com> Cc: "UA-discuss@icann.org" <ua-discuss@icann.org>, "ua-eai@icann.org" <ua-eai@icann.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [UA-EAI] [UA-discuss] [Ext] Re: UA-EAI WG charter
I disagree Jay. We need entire internet community along with developers to achieve the goals of this group.
Thanks, Harish Chowdhary
On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 4:08 PM Jay Daley <jay@techobscura.com> wrote: I would like to note that I disagree with the recommendations about travel for multiple community members.
The purpose of UASG should be to get non-compliant code changed and we should be using 95% of our resources to that goal. In the last couple of years we have become focused on promotion, branding, outreach, ambassadors, measurement, etc, which are all useful but have only an indirect impact on our goal. We are in danger of 95% of our resources going on these activities and our goal being achieved very, very slowly as a result.
I would like to see travel limited to the chair and vice-chair attending only two icann meetings a year and the rest of our resources directly targeted at getting the code changed.
Kind regards Jay
(sent from my phone)
-- Jay Daley Managing Director techobscura Limited +64 21 678840 skype: jaydaley
_______________________________________________ UA-EAI mailing list UA-EAI@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ua-eai
_______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
-- Thanks, Harish Chowdhary, Technology Analyst www.indiaig.in
_______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ UA-EAI mailing list UA-EAI@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ua-eai
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Hold on your emotions to solve UASG problem alone with one formula. Cuando deseas algo, todo el universo conspira para que realices tus sueños. we need everyone to contribute positively and all activities to work together not one after another. Make your own software / website UA ready. Take help from UA members to make your software / website UA ready and may be ask for some financial support to be UA ready. That may create some successful technical case studies. Steve ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Tuesday, 13 August 2019 17:33, Harish Chowdhary <intern3tgovernance@gmail.com> wrote:
I disagree Jay. We need entire internet community along with developers to achieve the goals of this group.
Thanks, Harish Chowdhary
On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 4:08 PM Jay Daley <jay@techobscura.com> wrote:
I would like to note that I disagree with the recommendations about travel for multiple community members.
The purpose of UASG should be to get non-compliant code changed and we should be using 95% of our resources to that goal. In the last couple of years we have become focused on promotion, branding, outreach, ambassadors, measurement, etc, which are all useful but have only an indirect impact on our goal. We are in danger of 95% of our resources going on these activities and our goal being achieved very, very slowly as a result.
I would like to see travel limited to the chair and vice-chair attending only two icann meetings a year and the rest of our resources directly targeted at getting the code changed.
Kind regards Jay
(sent from my phone)
-- Jay Daley Managing Director techobscura Limited +64 21 678840 skype: jaydaley
_______________________________________________ UA-EAI mailing list UA-EAI@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ua-eai
_______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
-- Thanks, Harish Chowdhary, Technology Analyst www.indiaig.in
participants (18)
-
Abdalmonem Tharwat Galila -
Ahlam Abu-Jadallah -
Charles 'chaals' (McCathie) Nevile -
Diana Arteaga -
Harish Chowdhary -
Jay Daley -
Jiankang Yao -
John Levine -
Marc Blanchet -
Mark Datysgeld -
Mark Svancarek (CELA) -
Mark W. Datysgeld
-
Mike Hemp -
nitin -
Roberto Gaetano -
Steve Bens -
Tan Tanaka, Dennis -
Vittorio Bertola