Maybe email addresses and URLs might not matter anymore?
UA Colleagues: We spend a lot of time thinking about universal acceptance of email addresses and URLs. We tend to assume that email addresses and URLs are important. But for a lot of information technology users, they aren't. Those users learned to use IT via mobile, rather than via desktop computers. They use all-embracing messaging apps like WeChat, or walled garden social media sites where you find what you want by search. In these environments, email addresses and URLs just don't matter as much as they do in longer-established, and Anglo-centric, IT cultures. Here are an interesting blog post and an interesting news article on the topic: /In China, email addresses are irrelevant/ • July 28, 2020 by John Yunker, blog post <https://globalbydesign.com/2020/07/28/in-china-email-addresses-are-irrelevan...> /Why email loses out to popular apps in Chin//a/ • 9th July 2020 by Lu-Hai Liang, BBC <https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200707-why-email-loses-out-to-popular...> I think a useful response to this might be to keep asking ourselves, how do people communicate in preference to emails? How do people find things in preference to typing in URLs? Then investigating those methods for Universal Acceptance as well. 'In Anglo-centric countries such as the UK, US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, email retains the etiquette of an analogue age. The “Dear X” greetings and formal sign-offs – “Best regards” – and so on, reveal vestigial ties to letter writing.' As I do in this email message. Best regards, —Jim DeLaHunt, software engineer, Vancouver, Canada -- . --Jim DeLaHunt, jdlh@jdlh.com http://blog.jdlh.com/ (http://jdlh.com/) multilingual websites consultant 355-1027 Davie St, Vancouver BC V6E 4L2, Canada Canada mobile +1-604-376-8953
Thanks Jim. 1) When my bank emails me, they always write, if you don’t trust this email is from the bank, type in the URL. If the URL is not in my language, I have difficulty typing it. 2) When I am redirected to a site, I often review the URL for security and as a way to establish trust. If it is not in my language, I will be unsure of the correct spelling and whether the site is phony or not. It is not the only test, but it is part of the assurance. Universal Acceptance is still important when trust is suspect. Search is not the rationale for UA. We can agree that for many cases users do not interact with email and URLs. But when they do, native language is important. tex From: UA-discuss [mailto:ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Jim DeLaHunt Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 4:52 PM To: ua-discuss Subject: [UA-discuss] Maybe email addresses and URLs might not matter anymore? UA Colleagues: We spend a lot of time thinking about universal acceptance of email addresses and URLs. We tend to assume that email addresses and URLs are important. But for a lot of information technology users, they aren't. Those users learned to use IT via mobile, rather than via desktop computers. They use all-embracing messaging apps like WeChat, or walled garden social media sites where you find what you want by search. In these environments, email addresses and URLs just don't matter as much as they do in longer-established, and Anglo-centric, IT cultures. Here are an interesting blog post and an interesting news article on the topic: In China, email addresses are irrelevant • July 28, 2020 by John Yunker, blog post <https://globalbydesign.com/2020/07/28/in-china-email-addresses-are-irrelevan...> Why email loses out to popular apps in China • 9th July 2020 by Lu-Hai Liang, BBC <https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200707-why-email-loses-out-to-popular...> I think a useful response to this might be to keep asking ourselves, how do people communicate in preference to emails? How do people find things in preference to typing in URLs? Then investigating those methods for Universal Acceptance as well. 'In Anglo-centric countries such as the UK, US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, email retains the etiquette of an analogue age. The “Dear X” greetings and formal sign-offs – “Best regards” – and so on, reveal vestigial ties to letter writing.' As I do in this email message. Best regards, —Jim DeLaHunt, software engineer, Vancouver, Canada -- . --Jim DeLaHunt, jdlh@jdlh.com http://blog.jdlh.com/ (http://jdlh.com/) multilingual websites consultant 355-1027 Davie St, Vancouver BC V6E 4L2, Canada Canada mobile +1-604-376-8953
Tex: On 2020-07-28 17:59, Tex wrote:
Thanks Jim.
1)When my bank emails me, they always write, if you don’t trust this email is from the bank, type in the URL. If the URL is not in my language, I have difficulty typing it.
2)When I am redirected to a site, I often review the URL for security and as a way to establish trust. If it is not in my language, I will be unsure of the correct spelling and whether the site is phony or not. It is not the only test, but it is part of the assurance.
This scenario is valid for banks who send emails to customers, and customers who log into bank websites. But the point of the BBC article is that, for many in China, all the communication occurs within the WeChat app. 1) The bank presumably sends a WeChat message from their WeChat presence to the customer's WeChat account, not an email. 2) The customer is presumably given a link to the bank's WeChat or web site presence. The customer clicks the link, and doesn't attempt to enter in a web address. The BBC article didn't talk about fraud within WeChat or similar systems. There is probably a fraud risk. I don't know what either the WeChat system or users within WeChat do about the fraud risk. But the article makes it seem unlikely that the routine response is to drop out of the "walled garden" and start using outside URLs and email addresses.
We can agree that for many cases users do not interact with email and URLs.…
Yes, we can agree on this. My point is that UASG's efforts have nothing to say about these cases, and that those cases matter.
…But when they do, native language is important.
Agreed, but not my point in this thread. Best regards, —Jim "writing emails in North American mode" DeLaHunt, software engineer, Vancouver, Canada -- . --Jim DeLaHunt, jdlh@jdlh.com http://blog.jdlh.com/ (http://jdlh.com/) multilingual websites consultant 355-1027 Davie St, Vancouver BC V6E 4L2, Canada Canada mobile +1-604-376-8953
Jim, I was using the bank as an example, the 2 step validation applies to many sites. I take your point though that wechat is used instead of mail. However, for security, the user should not always trust the wechat link and in some cases should type it in instead. Until all cases where typing a URL or an email are eliminated, native language and UA is important. Tex From: Jim DeLaHunt [mailto:list+uasg@jdlh.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2020 3:27 PM To: Tex Cc: 'ua-discuss' Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] Maybe email addresses and URLs might not matter anymore? Tex: On 2020-07-28 17:59, Tex wrote: Thanks Jim. 1) When my bank emails me, they always write, if you don’t trust this email is from the bank, type in the URL. If the URL is not in my language, I have difficulty typing it. 2) When I am redirected to a site, I often review the URL for security and as a way to establish trust. If it is not in my language, I will be unsure of the correct spelling and whether the site is phony or not. It is not the only test, but it is part of the assurance. This scenario is valid for banks who send emails to customers, and customers who log into bank websites. But the point of the BBC article is that, for many in China, all the communication occurs within the WeChat app. 1) The bank presumably sends a WeChat message from their WeChat presence to the customer's WeChat account, not an email. 2) The customer is presumably given a link to the bank's WeChat or web site presence. The customer clicks the link, and doesn't attempt to enter in a web address. The BBC article didn't talk about fraud within WeChat or similar systems. There is probably a fraud risk. I don't know what either the WeChat system or users within WeChat do about the fraud risk. But the article makes it seem unlikely that the routine response is to drop out of the "walled garden" and start using outside URLs and email addresses. We can agree that for many cases users do not interact with email and URLs.… Yes, we can agree on this. My point is that UASG's efforts have nothing to say about these cases, and that those cases matter. …But when they do, native language is important. Agreed, but not my point in this thread. Best regards, —Jim "writing emails in North American mode" DeLaHunt, software engineer, Vancouver, Canada -- . --Jim DeLaHunt, jdlh@jdlh.com http://blog.jdlh.com/ (http://jdlh.com/) multilingual websites consultant 355-1027 Davie St, Vancouver BC V6E 4L2, Canada Canada mobile +1-604-376-8953
In article <003001d665fa$de9da0f0$9bd8e2d0$@xencraft.com> you write:
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Jim, I was using the bank as an example, the 2 step validation applies to many sites. I take your point though that wechat is used instead of mail.
However, for security, the user should not always trust the wechat link and in some cases should type it in instead. Until all cases where typing a URL or an email are eliminated, native language and UA is important.
That's not how it works. Wechat is a complete environment, which most users never leave. Think of Facebook only much more so. As far as I know there are no URLs or e-mail addresses. R's, John
Ok. Thanks John. -----Original Message----- From: John Levine [mailto:john.levine@standcore.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2020 5:01 PM To: ua-discuss@icann.org Cc: textexin@xencraft.com Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] Maybe email addresses and URLs might not matter anymore? In article <003001d665fa$de9da0f0$9bd8e2d0$@xencraft.com> you write:
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Jim, I was using the bank as an example, the 2 step validation applies to many sites. I take your point though that wechat is used instead of mail.
However, for security, the user should not always trust the wechat link and in some cases should type it in instead. Until all cases where typing a URL or an email are eliminated, native language and UA is important.
That's not how it works. Wechat is a complete environment, which most users never leave. Think of Facebook only much more so. As far as I know there are no URLs or e-mail addresses. R's, John
If you have an Android phone you don't mind wiping afterward there's an English language version of Wechat in the Google Play store you can try out.
Ok. Thanks John.
-----Original Message----- From: John Levine [mailto:john.levine@standcore.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2020 5:01 PM To: ua-discuss@icann.org Cc: textexin@xencraft.com Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] Maybe email addresses and URLs might not matter anymore?
In article <003001d665fa$de9da0f0$9bd8e2d0$@xencraft.com> you write:
-=-=-=-=-=- -=-=-=-=-=-
Jim, I was using the bank as an example, the 2 step validation applies to many sites. I take your point though that wechat is used instead of mail.
However, for security, the user should not always trust the wechat link and in some cases should type it in instead. Until all cases where typing a URL or an email are eliminated, native language and UA is important.
That's not how it works. Wechat is a complete environment, which most users never leave. Think of Facebook only much more so. As far as I know there are no URLs or e-mail addresses.
R's, John
Regards, John Levine, john.levine@standcore.com Standcore LLC
Apps are transient by nature, while global systems and protocols have much more staying power. When we work on the DNS (plus everything around it) and make it better, I am always considering how this will impact even a system that supercedes the DNS. If UA is common, that system will inherit it. If it is not, we are leaving it up to chance. -- Mark W. Datysgeld from Governance Primer [www.markwd.website] In partnership with AR-TARC and the Brazilian Association of Software Companies (ABES) On July 28, 2020 8:52:00 PM GMT-03:00, Jim DeLaHunt <list+uasg@jdlh.com> wrote:
UA Colleagues:
We spend a lot of time thinking about universal acceptance of email addresses and URLs. We tend to assume that email addresses and URLs are
important. But for a lot of information technology users, they aren't. Those users learned to use IT via mobile, rather than via desktop computers. They use all-embracing messaging apps like WeChat, or walled
garden social media sites where you find what you want by search. In these environments, email addresses and URLs just don't matter as much as they do in longer-established, and Anglo-centric, IT cultures.
Here are an interesting blog post and an interesting news article on the topic:
/In China, email addresses are irrelevant/ • July 28, 2020 by John Yunker, blog post <https://globalbydesign.com/2020/07/28/in-china-email-addresses-are-irrelevan...>
/Why email loses out to popular apps in Chin//a/ • 9th July 2020 by Lu-Hai Liang, BBC <https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200707-why-email-loses-out-to-popular...>
I think a useful response to this might be to keep asking ourselves, how do people communicate in preference to emails? How do people find things in preference to typing in URLs? Then investigating those methods for Universal Acceptance as well.
'In Anglo-centric countries such as the UK, US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, email retains the etiquette of an analogue age. The “Dear X” greetings and formal sign-offs – “Best regards” – and so on, reveal vestigial ties to letter writing.'
As I do in this email message. Best regards, —Jim DeLaHunt, software engineer, Vancouver, Canada
-- . --Jim DeLaHunt, jdlh@jdlh.com http://blog.jdlh.com/ (http://jdlh.com/) multilingual websites consultant
355-1027 Davie St, Vancouver BC V6E 4L2, Canada Canada mobile +1-604-376-8953
On 28 Jul 2020, at 19:52, Jim DeLaHunt wrote:
UA Colleagues:
We spend a lot of time thinking about universal acceptance of email addresses and URLs. We tend to assume that email addresses and URLs are important. But for a lot of information technology users, they aren't. Those users learned to use IT via mobile, rather than via desktop computers. They use all-embracing messaging apps like WeChat, or walled garden social media sites where you find what you want by search. In these environments, email addresses and URLs just don't matter as much as they do in longer-established, and Anglo-centric, IT cultures.
« I know ». Email address for my grown-up teen-agers has been a temporary ID to subscribe to a service on the Internet. They verify your email by sending a challenge to your email address. You click. done. no use of email after. Then went Oauth enabling login using your google/facebook/… credentials where the browser even help you to type your userid. Therefore, for my kids, email does not really exist. About URL, URLs were not designed to be readable by users, but just a link to click on. Marc.
Here are an interesting blog post and an interesting news article on the topic:
/In China, email addresses are irrelevant/ • July 28, 2020 by John Yunker, blog post <https://globalbydesign.com/2020/07/28/in-china-email-addresses-are-irrelevan...>
/Why email loses out to popular apps in Chin//a/ • 9th July 2020 by Lu-Hai Liang, BBC <https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200707-why-email-loses-out-to-popular...>
I think a useful response to this might be to keep asking ourselves, how do people communicate in preference to emails? How do people find things in preference to typing in URLs? Then investigating those methods for Universal Acceptance as well.
'In Anglo-centric countries such as the UK, US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, email retains the etiquette of an analogue age. The “Dear X” greetings and formal sign-offs – “Best regards” – and so on, reveal vestigial ties to letter writing.'
As I do in this email message. Best regards, —Jim DeLaHunt, software engineer, Vancouver, Canada
-- . --Jim DeLaHunt, jdlh@jdlh.com http://blog.jdlh.com/ (http://jdlh.com/) multilingual websites consultant
355-1027 Davie St, Vancouver BC V6E 4L2, Canada Canada mobile +1-604-376-8953
_______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Marc, I get your point, but have a comment and a question. I assume that the email address used for the subscription will still be used for other things like FB password recovery and more, so it is probably not a “use once and throw away”, and therefore not just an irrelevant detail. The question is whether that service that you mention is UA-ready, i.e. whether somebody who has an internationalised email address will be able to register for the services. Cheers, Roberto On 29.07.2020, at 04:28, Marc Blanchet <marc.blanchet@viagenie.ca<mailto:marc.blanchet@viagenie.ca>> wrote: On 28 Jul 2020, at 19:52, Jim DeLaHunt wrote: UA Colleagues: We spend a lot of time thinking about universal acceptance of email addresses and URLs. We tend to assume that email addresses and URLs are important. But for a lot of information technology users, they aren't. Those users learned to use IT via mobile, rather than via desktop computers. They use all-embracing messaging apps like WeChat, or walled garden social media sites where you find what you want by search. In these environments, email addresses and URLs just don't matter as much as they do in longer-established, and Anglo-centric, IT cultures. « I know ». Email address for my grown-up teen-agers has been a temporary ID to subscribe to a service on the Internet. They verify your email by sending a challenge to your email address. You click. done. no use of email after. Then went Oauth enabling login using your google/facebook/… credentials where the browser even help you to type your userid. Therefore, for my kids, email does not really exist. About URL, URLs were not designed to be readable by users, but just a link to click on. Marc. Here are an interesting blog post and an interesting news article on the topic: /In China, email addresses are irrelevant/ • July 28, 2020 by John Yunker, blog post <https://globalbydesign.com/2020/07/28/in-china-email-addresses-are-irrelevan...> /Why email loses out to popular apps in Chin//a/ • 9th July 2020 by Lu-Hai Liang, BBC <https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200707-why-email-loses-out-to-popular...> I think a useful response to this might be to keep asking ourselves, how do people communicate in preference to emails? How do people find things in preference to typing in URLs? Then investigating those methods for Universal Acceptance as well. 'In Anglo-centric countries such as the UK, US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, email retains the etiquette of an analogue age. The “Dear X” greetings and formal sign-offs – “Best regards” – and so on, reveal vestigial ties to letter writing.' As I do in this email message. Best regards, —Jim DeLaHunt, software engineer, Vancouver, Canada -- . --Jim DeLaHunt, jdlh@jdlh.com<mailto:jdlh@jdlh.com> http://blog.jdlh.com/ (http://jdlh.com/) multilingual websites consultant 355-1027 Davie St, Vancouver BC V6E 4L2, Canada Canada mobile +1-604-376-8953 _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
On 29 Jul 2020, at 14:12, Roberto Gaetano wrote:
Marc, I get your point, but have a comment and a question. I assume that the email address used for the subscription will still be used for other things like FB password recovery and more, so it is probably not a “use once and throw away”, and therefore not just an irrelevant detail.
of course. but in the mind of the teenagers, the email address itself does not matter. It could be we18123987@sadflkjadsf.mail, since it is not their real identity, the identity that they are sharing. Instead they are sharing through the social networks.
The question is whether that service that you mention is UA-ready, i.e. whether somebody who has an internationalised email address will be able to register for the services.
of course. I’m not saying to abandon work on UA. I was reacting (and mostly agreeing) to Jim’s comment about (my words) how less relevant are email addresses nowadays compared to before. That’s it. Marc.
Cheers, Roberto
On 29.07.2020, at 04:28, Marc Blanchet <marc.blanchet@viagenie.ca<mailto:marc.blanchet@viagenie.ca>> wrote:
On 28 Jul 2020, at 19:52, Jim DeLaHunt wrote:
UA Colleagues:
We spend a lot of time thinking about universal acceptance of email addresses and URLs. We tend to assume that email addresses and URLs are important. But for a lot of information technology users, they aren't. Those users learned to use IT via mobile, rather than via desktop computers. They use all-embracing messaging apps like WeChat, or walled garden social media sites where you find what you want by search. In these environments, email addresses and URLs just don't matter as much as they do in longer-established, and Anglo-centric, IT cultures.
« I know ». Email address for my grown-up teen-agers has been a temporary ID to subscribe to a service on the Internet. They verify your email by sending a challenge to your email address. You click. done. no use of email after. Then went Oauth enabling login using your google/facebook/… credentials where the browser even help you to type your userid. Therefore, for my kids, email does not really exist. About URL, URLs were not designed to be readable by users, but just a link to click on.
Marc.
Here are an interesting blog post and an interesting news article on the topic:
/In China, email addresses are irrelevant/ • July 28, 2020 by John Yunker, blog post <https://globalbydesign.com/2020/07/28/in-china-email-addresses-are-irrelevan...>
/Why email loses out to popular apps in Chin//a/ • 9th July 2020 by Lu-Hai Liang, BBC <https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200707-why-email-loses-out-to-popular...>
I think a useful response to this might be to keep asking ourselves, how do people communicate in preference to emails? How do people find things in preference to typing in URLs? Then investigating those methods for Universal Acceptance as well.
'In Anglo-centric countries such as the UK, US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, email retains the etiquette of an analogue age. The “Dear X” greetings and formal sign-offs – “Best regards” – and so on, reveal vestigial ties to letter writing.'
As I do in this email message. Best regards, —Jim DeLaHunt, software engineer, Vancouver, Canada
-- . --Jim DeLaHunt, jdlh@jdlh.com<mailto:jdlh@jdlh.com> http://blog.jdlh.com/ (http://jdlh.com/) multilingual websites consultant
355-1027 Davie St, Vancouver BC V6E 4L2, Canada Canada mobile +1-604-376-8953
_______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Are these billions with mobile phones and mobile apps *really* connected to the internet? Sivasubramanian M <https://www.linkedin.com/in/sivasubramanianmuthusamy/> 6.Internet@gmail.com twitter.com/shivaindia On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 12:56 AM Yurii Kargapolov <yvk@uanic.net> wrote: > and yet let me disagree > who owns the IDs in all social networks and messengers? is it a user? no, > it's the owner of the social network. > take this identifier from you and you are Mr./Ms. nobody > they can pick it up because you "violated" the policies of social networks > and messengers > is such an event real? is quite real. > the situation is different with DNS and email > yes, in DNS you are not the "owner" of the domain name, only the "holder" > of the domain name, but no one can take it from you > what are the risks when you'll associate, for example, your trademarks > with identifiers in social networks and messengers? > these are only two aspects? one more related to security issues > it is true that millennials prefer messengers, but business culture does > not in any way imply an official exchange of information via messengers, > unofficial - yes > messengers and social networks for personal communication - yes, but the > fixation of significant business and social acts is not yet available > > Yuri > > Wednesday, July 29, 2020, 5:28:58 AM, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *> On 28 Jul 2020, at 19:52, Jim DeLaHunt wrote: >> UA Colleagues: >> We > spend a lot of time thinking about universal acceptance of email >> > addresses and URLs. We tend to assume that email addresses and URLs >> are > important. But for a lot of information technology users, they >> aren't. > Those users learned to use IT via mobile, rather than via >> desktop > computers. They use all-embracing messaging apps like WeChat, >> or walled > garden social media sites where you find what you want by >> search. In > these environments, email addresses and URLs just don't >> matter as much > as they do in longer-established, and Anglo-centric, IT >> cultures. > « I > know ». Email address for my grown-up teen-agers has been a > temporary ID > to subscribe to a service on the Internet. They verify your > email by > sending a challenge to your email address. You click. done. no > use of > email after. Then went Oauth enabling login using your > google/facebook/… > credentials where the browser even help you to type > your userid. > Therefore, for my kids, email does not really exist. About > URL, URLs were > not designed to be readable by users, but just a link to > click on. > > Marc. >> Here are an interesting blog post and an interesting news article > on >> the topic: >> /In China, email addresses are irrelevant/ • July 28, > 2020 by John >> Yunker, blog post >> <* > https://globalbydesign.com/2020/07/28/in-china-email-addresses-are-irrelevant/ > > > > *> >> /Why email loses out to popular apps in Chin//a/ • 9th July 2020 by > >> Lu-Hai Liang, BBC >> <* > https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200707-why-email-loses-out-to-popular-apps-in-china > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *> >> I think a useful response to this might be to keep asking ourselves, > >> how do people communicate in preference to emails? How do people find >> > things in preference to typing in URLs? Then investigating those >> > methods for Universal Acceptance as well. >> 'In Anglo-centric countries > such as the UK, US, Canada, Australia and >> New Zealand, email retains the > etiquette of an analogue age. The >> “Dear X” greetings and formal > sign-offs – “Best regards” – >> and so on, reveal vestigial ties to letter > writing.' >> As I do in this email message. Best regards, >> —Jim > DeLaHunt, software engineer, Vancouver, Canada >> -- >> . --Jim DeLaHunt, > *jdlh@jdlh.com http://blog.jdlh.com/ > * >> (*http://jdlh.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > *) >> multilingual websites consultant >> 355-1027 Davie St, > Vancouver BC V6E 4L2, Canada >> Canada mobile +1-604-376-8953 >> > _______________________________________________ >> By submitting your > personal data, you consent to the processing of >> your personal data for > purposes of subscribing to this mailing list >> accordance with the ICANN > Privacy Policy >> (*https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy > *) and the website Terms of >> Service (*https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos > > > > > > > > > *). You can visit the Mailman >> link above to change your membership > status or configuration, >> including unsubscribing, setting digest-style > delivery or disabling >> delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so > on. > _______________________________________________ > By submitting your > personal data, you consent to the processing of > your personal data for > purposes of subscribing to this mailing list > accordance with the ICANN > Privacy Policy > (*https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy > *) and the website Terms of > Service (*https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos > > > > > > > *). You can visit the > Mailman link above to change your membership > status or > configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style > > delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so > on. * > > > *-- З повагою, Ю. Каргаполов *mailto:yvk@uanic.net > <yvk@uanic.net> > > _______________________________________________ > By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your > personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance > with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and > the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can > visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or > configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or > disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
In article <4b745186-9adb-b8d3-3af4-fd89d334a0ea@jdlh.com> you write:
-=-=-=-=-=- -=-=-=-=-=-
UA Colleagues:
We spend a lot of time thinking about universal acceptance of email addresses and URLs. We tend to assume that email addresses and URLs are important. But for a lot of information technology users, they aren't. Those users learned to use IT via mobile, rather than via desktop computers. They use all-embracing messaging apps like WeChat, ...
China is a very large special case, because literally everyone in China has a Wechat acccount and that's their online identity. Statista says they have 1.2 billion active users. To the extent they use e-mail, it's to communicate with people in other countries.
I think a useful response to this might be to keep asking ourselves, how do people communicate in preference to emails? How do people find things in preference to typing in URLs? Then investigating those methods for Universal Acceptance as well.
I would prefer to limit the mission creep here. Mobile apps and walled gardens are targeted by their owners at specific communities (perhaps very large ones, but specific anyway) and I don't see that we have anything useful to tell them. If they consider speakers of language X to be part of their target audience, they'll add support for language X. That's doubly true if the interface they show that audience doesn't contain domain names or e-mail addreses, since those are the only things that UA deals with. R's, John
John Levine wrote:
China is a very large special case, because literally everyone in China has a Wechat acccount and that's their online identity. Statista says they have 1.2 billion active users.
To the extent they use e-mail, it's to communicate with people in other countries.
Using EAI email addresses not so important then?
In article <017c01d6655d$054525f0$0fcf71d0$@acm.org> you write:
John Levine wrote:
China is a very large special case, because literally everyone in China has a Wechat acccount and that's their online identity. Statista says they have 1.2 billion active users.
To the extent they use e-mail, it's to communicate with people in other countries.
Using EAI email addresses not so important then?
Not in China. We talked to Tencent about a year and a half ago, and learned that the way most people type Chinese into their computers is ASCII pinyin so they know the ASCII alphabet even if they don't speak English. E-mail addresses are often either the pinyin or their numeric account ID at whatever service hosts the mail. Tencent will probably support EAI but not due to command from their own customers. If someone has an unusual name written with an uncommon character, when he says what his name is he often wiill draw the character in the air with his finger which doesn't help if you can't see him. The pinyin comes directly from the sound of the name so it's a better mail identifier than the uncommon character. R's, John
I think we could generalise. UA is going to matter more to people who have keyboards that cover their "own" character set - examples include greek, cyrillic, korean, arabic - rather than people who are already used to writing ascii characters to generate their own characters as is the case with chinese and japanese. (I think Indic scripts are in the former group, but I don't know for sure..). The reason is that if you type ascii already, then your input method happily generates ASCII, you are familiar with using the characters to spell, so there isn't much at stake. Whereas if you are working in say Russian, and need to switch to a different keyboard just to type an email address, it's really pretty annoying. Russian keyboards often have the corresponding qwerty keys printed in the corner - almost as big as the cyrillic letter that is the expected primary character - precisely to deal with this situation because it is so common. A vast number of russians, that I would guess is a significant majority of all russian speakers, know the latin alphabet. Given that there are subtle differences between e.g. Russian and Belorussian an Ukranian cyrillic alphabets, the same issues arise as for most European languages written with Latin characters, but using diacritics like é or "extra" characters like ø that are not in ASCII. Even english uses those, but like other Europeans we have become more tolerant of moulding the language to fit the system ever since we moved from typewriters that made it easy to computers incapable of handling them... These are cultures that are still close to the America-centric internet where email addresses and URLs matter, whereas the idea of typing a Japanese URL to check that it is not a phishing attack is ludicrous, given the actual process of doing so *lends itself* to phishing attacks. So it might be that these cultures actually continue to lead in driving acceptance of the necessity to handle more than ASCII - when you can use a crossed-L (common in Polish) or a double-accented-O (like a Hungarian), we might have done the development properly so that the systems actually cope with Ethiopic or Kabyle out of the box, meaning that people wanting to use those alphabets don't have to be pioneers asking their colleagues to go through the painful and often pointless exercise of tying to use an email address that doesn't work. Norwegians can often afford to drive social change. It is often a much greater effort for an Ethiopian to drive the same changes, particularly in an area like UA. Which is why I admire so much the work done in e.g. India and Egypt by our colleagues who are nevertheless making those efforts to move the world forward. cheers Chaals On Wed, 29 Jul 2020 21:31:49 +1000, John Levine <john.levine@standcore.com> wrote:
In article <017c01d6655d$054525f0$0fcf71d0$@acm.org> you write:
John Levine wrote:
China is a very large special case, because literally everyone in China has a Wechat acccount and that's their online identity. Statista says they have 1.2 billion active users.
To the extent they use e-mail, it's to communicate with people in other countries.
Using EAI email addresses not so important then?
Not in China. We talked to Tencent about a year and a half ago, and learned that the way most people type Chinese into their computers is ASCII pinyin so they know the ASCII alphabet even if they don't speak English. E-mail addresses are often either the pinyin or their numeric account ID at whatever service hosts the mail. Tencent will probably support EAI but not due to command from their own customers.
If someone has an unusual name written with an uncommon character, when he says what his name is he often wiill draw the character in the air with his finger which doesn't help if you can't see him. The pinyin comes directly from the sound of the name so it's a better mail identifier than the uncommon character.
R's, John
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Hi Anyone did testing on indic scripts. looking for Tamil scripts updates. rgds ~Maniam On Tue, 8 Sep 2020, 11:54 Charles 'chaals' (McCathie) Nevile, < chaals@yandex.ru> wrote:
I think we could generalise. UA is going to matter more to people who have keyboards that cover their "own" character set - examples include greek, cyrillic, korean, arabic - rather than people who are already used to writing ascii characters to generate their own characters as is the case with chinese and japanese. (I think Indic scripts are in the former group, but I don't know for sure..).
The reason is that if you type ascii already, then your input method happily generates ASCII, you are familiar with using the characters to spell, so there isn't much at stake. Whereas if you are working in say Russian, and need to switch to a different keyboard just to type an email address, it's really pretty annoying. Russian keyboards often have the corresponding qwerty keys printed in the corner - almost as big as the cyrillic letter that is the expected primary character - precisely to deal with this situation because it is so common.
A vast number of russians, that I would guess is a significant majority of all russian speakers, know the latin alphabet. Given that there are subtle differences between e.g. Russian and Belorussian an Ukranian cyrillic alphabets, the same issues arise as for most European languages written with Latin characters, but using diacritics like é or "extra" characters like ø that are not in ASCII. Even english uses those, but like other Europeans we have become more tolerant of moulding the language to fit the system ever since we moved from typewriters that made it easy to computers incapable of handling them...
These are cultures that are still close to the America-centric internet where email addresses and URLs matter, whereas the idea of typing a Japanese URL to check that it is not a phishing attack is ludicrous, given the actual process of doing so *lends itself* to phishing attacks. So it might be that these cultures actually continue to lead in driving acceptance of the necessity to handle more than ASCII - when you can use a crossed-L (common in Polish) or a double-accented-O (like a Hungarian), we might have done the development properly so that the systems actually cope with Ethiopic or Kabyle out of the box, meaning that people wanting to use those alphabets don't have to be pioneers asking their colleagues to go through the painful and often pointless exercise of tying to use an email address that doesn't work.
Norwegians can often afford to drive social change. It is often a much greater effort for an Ethiopian to drive the same changes, particularly in an area like UA. Which is why I admire so much the work done in e.g. India and Egypt by our colleagues who are nevertheless making those efforts to move the world forward.
cheers
Chaals
On Wed, 29 Jul 2020 21:31:49 +1000, John Levine <john.levine@standcore.com> wrote:
In article <017c01d6655d$054525f0$0fcf71d0$@acm.org> you write:
John Levine wrote:
China is a very large special case, because literally everyone in China has a Wechat acccount and that's their online identity. Statista says they have 1.2 billion active users.
To the extent they use e-mail, it's to communicate with people in other countries.
Using EAI email addresses not so important then?
Not in China. We talked to Tencent about a year and a half ago, and learned that the way most people type Chinese into their computers is ASCII pinyin so they know the ASCII alphabet even if they don't speak English. E-mail addresses are often either the pinyin or their numeric account ID at whatever service hosts the mail. Tencent will probably support EAI but not due to command from their own customers.
If someone has an unusual name written with an uncommon character, when he says what his name is he often wiill draw the character in the air with his finger which doesn't help if you can't see him. The pinyin comes directly from the sound of the name so it's a better mail identifier than the uncommon character.
R's, John
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Even Voice to text as input will have its importance. Basically input methods may change but UA has to be still dealt with. Thanks Ajay On September 8, 2020 9:23:59 AM GMT+05:30, "Charles 'chaals' (McCathie) Nevile" <chaals@yandex.ru> wrote:
I think we could generalise. UA is going to matter more to people who have keyboards that cover their "own" character set - examples include greek, cyrillic, korean, arabic - rather than people who are already used to writing ascii characters to generate their own characters as is the case with chinese and japanese. (I think Indic scripts are in the former group, but I don't know for sure..).
The reason is that if you type ascii already, then your input method happily generates ASCII, you are familiar with using the characters to spell, so there isn't much at stake. Whereas if you are working in say Russian, and need to switch to a different keyboard just to type an email address, it's really pretty annoying. Russian keyboards often have the corresponding qwerty keys printed in the corner - almost as big as the cyrillic letter that is the expected primary character - precisely to deal with this situation because it is so common.
A vast number of russians, that I would guess is a significant majority of all russian speakers, know the latin alphabet. Given that there are subtle differences between e.g. Russian and Belorussian an Ukranian cyrillic alphabets, the same issues arise as for most European languages written with Latin characters, but using diacritics like é or "extra" characters like ø that are not in ASCII. Even english uses those, but like other Europeans we have become more tolerant of moulding the language to fit the system ever since we moved from typewriters that made it easy to computers incapable of handling them...
These are cultures that are still close to the America-centric internet where email addresses and URLs matter, whereas the idea of typing a Japanese URL to check that it is not a phishing attack is ludicrous, given the actual process of doing so *lends itself* to phishing attacks. So it might be that these cultures actually continue to lead in driving acceptance of the necessity to handle more than ASCII - when you can use a crossed-L (common in Polish) or a double-accented-O (like a Hungarian), we might have done the development properly so that the systems actually cope with Ethiopic or Kabyle out of the box, meaning that people wanting to use those alphabets don't have to be pioneers asking their colleagues to go through the painful and often pointless exercise of tying to use an email address that doesn't work.
Norwegians can often afford to drive social change. It is often a much greater effort for an Ethiopian to drive the same changes, particularly in an area like UA. Which is why I admire so much the work done in e.g. India and Egypt by our colleagues who are nevertheless making those efforts to move the world forward.
cheers
Chaals
On Wed, 29 Jul 2020 21:31:49 +1000, John Levine <john.levine@standcore.com> wrote:
In article <017c01d6655d$054525f0$0fcf71d0$@acm.org> you write:
John Levine wrote:
China is a very large special case, because literally everyone in China has a Wechat acccount and that's their online identity. Statista says they have 1.2 billion active users.
To the extent they use e-mail, it's to communicate with people in other countries.
Using EAI email addresses not so important then?
Not in China. We talked to Tencent about a year and a half ago, and learned that the way most people type Chinese into their computers is ASCII pinyin so they know the ASCII alphabet even if they don't speak English. E-mail addresses are often either the pinyin or their numeric account ID at whatever service hosts the mail. Tencent will probably support EAI but not due to command from their own customers.
If someone has an unusual name written with an uncommon character, when he says what his name is he often wiill draw the character in the air with his finger which doesn't help if you can't see him. The pinyin comes directly from the sound of the name so it's a better mail identifier than the uncommon character.
R's, John
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participants (12)
-
ajay＠data.in -
Charles 'chaals' (McCathie) Nevile -
Jim DeLaHunt -
John Levine -
Larry Masinter -
Marc Blanchet -
Mark W. Datysgeld -
Roberto Gaetano -
S Maniam -
sivasubramanian muthusamy -
Tex -
Yurii Kargapolov