If I understand correctly, just like this mailing list ua-eai@icann.org, it must be able to hold every kind of valid email address and successfully deliver email to all subscribers. That's our expectation. This functionality we have in xgenplus and we have been successfully running it since many years.
I don't understand how that could work. Let's say a list has four subscribers E1, E2, A1, A2, where E1 and E2 are EAI addresses and A1 and A2 are ASCII addresses on ASCII-only systems. Subscriber E1 sends a message to the list. Sending it to E1 and E2 works, but sending to A1 and A2 will fail since they don't accept EAI mail. What does your system do? Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
On Wed, 1 Jan 2025, Душан Стојичевић wrote:
Or mailman can use two email addresses per user (EAI and ASCII alias) to deliver all messages. Or, mailman can check EAI capabilities of certain email address at the registering stage, and forbids them to register if they are not EAI ready. Hey, now it's forbidden for EAI addresses, and no one makes a problem.
Those are certainly possibilities, but mailman doesn't do any of those. I can't blame them because they all have a terrible user experience. Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
On Thu, 2 Jan 2025, Душан Стојичевић wrote:
Bottom line, let say EAI is possible in Mailman (with a lot more development), but there are other circumstances why it's not and probably will not be.
Mailman is open source. If someone thinks EAI is worth the effort, they can write the code.
Therefore, I would say - EAI is a standard, right? So, Mailman is not fulfilling standards. Some other solution can fulfill the gap, like Dr. Ajay's...
At this point I don't think Ajay's product does what mailman does. Xgenplus is a mail server (a perfectly good one) but not a mailing list package. R's, John
Thanks John and Dusan. Xgenplus is full business email server with IMAP, SMPT, POP and Webmail along with all standard features, including Mailingist feature. John, you are right xgenplus is not standalone mailist software, however it has a feature to maintain mailing list which support all kind of email addresses. Thanks AD On January 2, 2025 7:54:00 AM GMT+05:30, "John R. Levine" <johnl@iecc.com> wrote:
On Thu, 2 Jan 2025, Душан Стојичевић wrote:
Bottom line, let say EAI is possible in Mailman (with a lot more development), but there are other circumstances why it's not and probably will not be.
Mailman is open source. If someone thinks EAI is worth the effort, they can write the code.
Therefore, I would say - EAI is a standard, right? So, Mailman is not fulfilling standards. Some other solution can fulfill the gap, like Dr. Ajay's..
At this point I don't think Ajay's product does what mailman does. Xgenplus is a mail server (a perfectly good one) but not a mailing list package.
R's, John
-- Sent from my Android device with XGen Email.
It appears that Dr Ajay Data via UA-EAI <ajay@data.in> said:
-=-=-=-=-=- -=-=-=-=-=-
Thanks John and Dusan.
Xgenplus is full business email server with IMAP, SMPT, POP and Webmail along with all standard features, including Mailingist feature.
John, you are right xgenplus is not standalone mailist software, however it has a feature to maintain mailing list which support all kind of email addresses.
OK, then I would still like to knoe how you handle EAI list mail to people with non-EAI addresses. Nobody else has figured out how to do this. What's the secret? R's, John
On Thu, 2 Jan 2025, Душан Стојичевић wrote:
There's no magic. I tested this system before corona and already told you, there are two email addresses (EAI and ASCII alias) and it works when the recipient have non EAI ready email address with alias.
Oh, OK, that's what I meant by terrible user experience. The early experimental version of EAI mail had ASCII fallback addresses. They worked extremely badly. The only significant difference in the later standards track version was that they took out the ASCII fallback, and a system either supports EAI addresses or it doesn't. R's, John
2. 1. 2025. 19:09, John Levine via UA-EAI <ua-eai@icann.org> је написао/ла:
It appears that Dr Ajay Data via UA-EAI <ajay@data.in> said: >-=-=-=-=-=- >-=-=-=-=-=- > >Thanks John and Dusan. > >Xgenplus is full business email server with IMAP, SMPT, POP and Webmail along with all standard features, including Mailingist feature. > >John, you are right xgenplus is not standalone mailist software, however it has a feature to maintain mailing list which support all kind of email addresses.
OK, then I would still like to knoe how you handle EAI list mail to people with non-EAI addresses.
Nobody else has figured out how to do this. What's the secret?
R's, John _______________________________________________ UA-EAI mailing list -- ua-eai@icann.org To unsubscribe send an email to ua-eai-leave@icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
On Fri, 3 Jan 2025, Душан Стојичевић wrote:
This one worked good, at least what I have tested, in my personal limits. And I don't think that XGEN changed much the logic, and the adoption for EAI slightly increased over the years, so more recipient are EAI ready (Apple for example). And I believe that ASCII alias is the only workable idea for good delivery of any email to any recipient, until full adoption of EAI (which will never happen, but let's hope ;) )...
If everyone has an ASCII address, they can use that address, no changes needed to any software and no need for EAI. Remember that in your mail you can put the subject and the body and everything but the addresses in any language you want without EAI. The whole point of EAI is to let people who do not speak English and may not even know the Latin alphabet work in their own languages. We keep finding that is very hard, but let's not forget what the goal is. R's, John
Hi, I remember people who said MIME would never reach full adoption. Then suddenly we reached critical mass and the question disappeared. People just stopped asking whether it was okay to send attachments. We have much work to do before we reach critical mass for EAI. MUCH work. I hope for a lot in the mail server area this year. Arnt From: Душан Стојичевић via UA-EAI <ua-eai@icann.org> Reply-To: Душан Стојичевић <dusan@dukes.in.rs> Date: Friday, 3 January 2025 at 01:58 To: "John R. Levine" <johnl@iecc.com> Cc: "ua-eai@icann.org" <ua-eai@icann.org> Subject: [UA-EAI] Re: Mail man 3.1 This one worked good, at least what I have tested, in my personal limits. And I don't think that XGEN changed much the logic, and the adoption for EAI slightly increased over the years, so more recipient are EAI ready (Apple for example). And I believe that ASCII alias is the only workable idea for good delivery of any email to any recipient, until full adoption of EAI (which will never happen, but let's hope ;) )... Regards, Dušan 3. 1. 2025. 01:20, "John R. Levine" <johnl@iecc.com> је написао/ла: On Thu, 2 Jan 2025, Душан Стојичевић wrote:
There's no magic. I tested this system before corona and already told you, there are two email addresses (EAI and ASCII alias) and it works when the recipient have non EAI ready email address with alias.
Oh, OK, that's what I meant by terrible user experience. The early experimental version of EAI mail had ASCII fallback addresses. They worked extremely badly. The only significant difference in the later standards track version was that they took out the ASCII fallback, and a system either supports EAI addresses or it doesn't. R's, John
2. 1. 2025. 19:09, John Levine via UA-EAI <ua-eai@icann.org> је написао/ла:
It appears that Dr Ajay Data via UA-EAI <ajay@data.in> said: >-=-=-=-=-=- >-=-=-=-=-=- > >Thanks John and Dusan. > >Xgenplus is full business email server with IMAP, SMPT, POP and Webmail along with all standard features, including Mailingist feature. > >John, you are right xgenplus is not standalone mailist software, however it has a feature to maintain mailing list which support all kind of email addresses.
OK, then I would still like to knoe how you handle EAI list mail to people with non-EAI addresses.
Nobody else has figured out how to do this. What's the secret?
R's, John _______________________________________________ UA-EAI mailing list -- ua-eai@icann.org To unsubscribe send an email to ua-eai-leave@icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
Hi Arnt, Hope dies last - old saying in my part of the world. ;) I see also other examples, like IPv6 and DNSSEC, with similar (long) path as IDNs and EAI, and not very prospect future. It is all about the user demand (which was more-less clear with MIME), not about persons like me believing or not in technology. And I do have certain issues with RFCs for EAI since the very beginning, but - hey, it's only my opinion... Full support from my side for EAI - let's rock and roll, until we reach critical mass! Dušan On 3.1.2025. 11:21, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:
Hi,
I remember people who said MIME would never reach full adoption. Then suddenly we reached critical mass and the question disappeared. People just stopped asking whether it was okay to send attachments.
We have much work to do before we reach critical mass for EAI. MUCH work. I hope for a lot in the mail server area this year.
Arnt
*From: *Душан Стојичевић via UA-EAI <ua-eai@icann.org> *Reply-To: *Душан Стојичевић <dusan@dukes.in.rs> *Date: *Friday, 3 January 2025 at 01:58 *To: *"John R. Levine" <johnl@iecc.com> *Cc: *"ua-eai@icann.org" <ua-eai@icann.org> *Subject: *[UA-EAI] Re: Mail man 3.1
This one worked good, at least what I have tested, in my personal limits. And I don't think that XGEN changed much the logic, and the adoption for EAI slightly increased over the years, so more recipient are EAI ready (Apple for example). And I believe that ASCII alias is the only workable idea for good delivery of any email to any recipient, until full adoption of EAI (which will never happen, but let's hope ;) )...
Regards,
Dušan
3. 1. 2025. 01:20, "John R. Levine" <johnl@iecc.com> је написао/ла:
On Thu, 2 Jan 2025, Душан Стојичевић wrote: > There's no magic. I tested this system before corona and already told you, there are two email addresses (EAI and ASCII alias) and it works when the recipient have non EAI ready email > address with alias.
Oh, OK, that's what I meant by terrible user experience. The early experimental version of EAI mail had ASCII fallback addresses. They worked extremely badly. The only significant difference in the later standards track version was that they took out the ASCII fallback, and a system either supports EAI addresses or it doesn't.
R's, John
> 2. 1. 2025. 19:09, John Levine via UA-EAI <ua-eai@icann.org> је написао/ла: > > It appears that Dr Ajay Data via UA-EAI <ajay@data.in> said: > >-=-=-=-=-=- > >-=-=-=-=-=- > > > >Thanks John and Dusan. > > > >Xgenplus is full business email server with IMAP, SMPT, POP and Webmail along with all standard features, including Mailingist feature. > > > >John, you are right xgenplus is not standalone mailist software, however it has a feature to maintain mailing list which support all kind of email addresses. > > OK, then I would still like to knoe how you handle EAI list mail to people with non-EAI addresses. > > Nobody else has figured out how to do this. What's the secret? > > R's, > John > _______________________________________________ > UA-EAI mailing list -- ua-eai@icann.org > To unsubscribe send an email to ua-eai-leave@icann.org > _______________________________________________ > By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy > Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your > membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. > > > >
Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
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participants (6)
-
Arnt Gulbrandsen -
Dr Ajay Data -
Dusan Stojicevic -
John Levine -
John R. Levine -
Душан Стојичевић