arabic1.arabic2@arabic3.arabic4
Dear all: In the above example, which is the mailbox name and which is the domain name? Andrew Sullivan tells me it’s not addressed by the protocol because it’s an implementation issue. Raed: How does Raseel handle this? Don
From a logical standpoint, arabic1.arabic2 is the mailbox name and arabic3.arabic4 is the hostname. But of course how this is displayed visually is entirely different. If all components are indeed in Arabic script, this would be rendered as arabic4.arabic3@arabic2.arabic1 which components are which does not change in this case, but the visual representation is the reverse of the logical one. Paul
3 апр. 2017 г., в 14:10, Don Hollander <don.hollander@icann.org> написал(а):
Dear all:
In the above example, which is the mailbox name and which is the domain name?
Andrew Sullivan tells me it’s not addressed by the protocol because it’s an implementation issue.
Raed: How does Raseel handle this?
Don _______________________________________________ UA-EAI mailing list UA-EAI@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ua-eai
On Mon, Apr 03, 2017 at 02:17:07PM -0700, Paul Borokhov wrote:
From a logical standpoint, arabic1.arabic2 is the mailbox name and arabic3.arabic4 is the hostname.
I don't know what you mean, "from a logical standpoint". What we know is that there is a local-part and a server-part, and that they're separated by the @ sign. How a user interface will decide to display this is complicated. It could be that it follows RTL conventions, in which case the thing rightmost in this theoretical string to be the beginning of the local part, then next post-separation piece to be the next part of the local part, and so on. It could be that the labels of the domain name are preserved in resolution order (so, e.g. if arabic3.arabic4 is the domain then arabic4 is the label closest to the root; this even though the labels will display internally RTL). This genuinely is a problem in the user interface renderings, and last I looked I don't think a clear convention has established itself. A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com
Whenever you are talking about bidi text, there’s what’s called „logical“ and „visual“ ordering. Visual ordering is how the text is displayed as determined by the bidi algorithm (in most cases, the Unicode bidi algorithm). Logical ordering is how the text is stored in memory, or the sequence in which you would generally input it. When I see arabic1, 2, 3, etc, I am assuming that this is the logical order. The visual order, as I pointed out, would be different if following normal conventions. This is why the distinction is important. You are right that there are currently no real guidelines on how to display this structured text. Most clients, AFAIK, render it just like „regular“ bidi text. Paul
3 апр. 2017 г., в 14:40, Andrew Sullivan <ajs@anvilwalrusden.com> написал(а):
On Mon, Apr 03, 2017 at 02:17:07PM -0700, Paul Borokhov wrote:
From a logical standpoint, arabic1.arabic2 is the mailbox name and arabic3.arabic4 is the hostname.
I don't know what you mean, "from a logical standpoint". What we know is that there is a local-part and a server-part, and that they're separated by the @ sign.
How a user interface will decide to display this is complicated. It could be that it follows RTL conventions, in which case the thing rightmost in this theoretical string to be the beginning of the local part, then next post-separation piece to be the next part of the local part, and so on.
It could be that the labels of the domain name are preserved in resolution order (so, e.g. if arabic3.arabic4 is the domain then arabic4 is the label closest to the root; this even though the labels will display internally RTL).
This genuinely is a problem in the user interface renderings, and last I looked I don't think a clear convention has established itself.
A
-- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com _______________________________________________ UA-EAI mailing list UA-EAI@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ua-eai
you have to set a baseline somewhere, otherwise these things get confusing real fast :-)
3 апр. 2017 г., в 15:00, Andrew Sullivan <ajs@anvilwalrusden.com> написал(а):
On Mon, Apr 03, 2017 at 02:54:52PM -0700, Paul Borokhov wrote:
When I see arabic1, 2, 3, etc, I am assuming that this is the logical order.
Ah. Well, that was part of what I didn't know in Don's question :)
A
-- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com
And the other aspect is directionality of the container. ascii@CIBARA.com is a left-to-right container. .com@CIBARAascii is a right-to-left container (I think -- might be .comCIBARAascii@) Murray's post really does quite a good job of describing how we handle these for IRIs in Microsoft Office. They have very similar characteristics. -----Original Message----- From: ua-eai-bounces@icann.org [mailto:ua-eai-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Paul Borokhov Sent: Monday, April 3, 2017 3:07 PM To: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@anvilwalrusden.com> Cc: ua-eai@icann.org Subject: Re: [UA-EAI] arabic1.arabic2@arabic3.arabic4 you have to set a baseline somewhere, otherwise these things get confusing real fast :-)
3 апр. 2017 г., в 15:00, Andrew Sullivan <ajs@anvilwalrusden.com> написал(а):
On Mon, Apr 03, 2017 at 02:54:52PM -0700, Paul Borokhov wrote:
When I see arabic1, 2, 3, etc, I am assuming that this is the logical order.
Ah. Well, that was part of what I didn't know in Don's question :)
A
-- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com
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On 2017/04/04 06:54, Paul Borokhov wrote:
Whenever you are talking about bidi text, there’s what’s called „logical“ and „visual“ ordering. Visual ordering is how the text is displayed as determined by the bidi algorithm (in most cases, the Unicode bidi algorithm). Logical ordering is how the text is stored in memory, or the sequence in which you would generally input it.
Or, even more importantly in an IETF context, the sequence in which it's sent over the wire :-). Regards, Martin.
I believe for plain text with no fancy Unicode values, the rendering is well-defined because the period and ampersand are both neutral and assume directionality from the surrounding characters. See http://www.w3.org/International/articles/inline-bidi-markup/uba-basics. Add Unicode directionality controls and you get a wide variety of orderings – but that’s as true of English as it is of Arabic. See https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/murrays/2014/03/30/bidi-hyperlinks/. When I last heard (several years ago), the Unicode consortium was still discussing whether to update the BiDi guidance to account for these cases. -----Original Message----- From: ua-eai-bounces@icann.org [mailto:ua-eai-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Paul Borokhov Sent: Monday, April 3, 2017 2:17 PM To: Don Hollander <don.hollander@icann.org> Cc: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@anvilwalrusden.com>; ua-eai@icann.org Subject: Re: [UA-EAI] arabic1.arabic2@arabic3.arabic4 From a logical standpoint, arabic1.arabic2 is the mailbox name and arabic3.arabic4 is the hostname. But of course how this is displayed visually is entirely different. If all components are indeed in Arabic script, this would be rendered as arabic4.arabic3@arabic2.arabic1<mailto:arabic4.arabic3@arabic2.arabic1> which components are which does not change in this case, but the visual representation is the reverse of the logical one. Paul
3 апр. 2017 г., в 14:10, Don Hollander <don.hollander@icann.org<mailto:don.hollander@icann.org>> написал(а):
Dear all:
In the above example, which is the mailbox name and which is the domain name?
Andrew Sullivan tells me it’s not addressed by the protocol because it’s an implementation issue.
Raed: How does Raseel handle this?
Don
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On Mon, Apr 03, 2017 at 09:41:47PM +0000, Stuart Stuple wrote:
I believe for plain text with no fancy Unicode values, the rendering is well-defined because the period and ampersand are both neutral and assume directionality from the surrounding characters. See http://www.w3.org/International/articles/inline-bidi-markup/uba-basics.
Well, what do you mean "no fancy Unicode values"? That's the problem here. You're right that that U+0040 is Bidi_Class Other_Neutral and U+002E is Common_Separator, so neither should change directionality. But that's not the problem. The problem is that many email addresses are of the form first-local-part.second-local-part@label.secondlabel. So let's start with the simple case: [some ASCII characters]@arabic-string.com now, the bidi algorithm is probably going to do something like this (at least in my reading it should): LTR@RTL.com Now, what if instead it's [some arabic characers]@arabic-string.com ? The problem is easy to see: this part [some arabic characers]@arabic-string should actually render arabic-string (in rtl)@[some arabic characers] (in rtl) And now you don't know where to put .com. This is a genuinely hard problem for user interfaces; and again, if intuitive interfaces for native Arabic-script users have so far emerged it is news to me. (I would not be surprised that it be news -- I don't use Arabic to write anything -- but last time I checked with relevant people working on the interfaces I got a lot of wailing about this problem so I don't think I'm the only one who thinks its hard.)
Add Unicode directionality controls and you get a wide variety of orderings
Yes, of course. A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com
On 2017/04/04 06:59, Andrew Sullivan wrote:
On Mon, Apr 03, 2017 at 09:41:47PM +0000, Stuart Stuple wrote:
I believe for plain text with no fancy Unicode values, the rendering is well-defined because the period and ampersand are both neutral and assume directionality from the surrounding characters. See http://www.w3.org/International/articles/inline-bidi-markup/uba-basics.
Well, what do you mean "no fancy Unicode values"?
There are Unicode characters that aren't visible except that they affect the display order of surrounding or enclosed other characters. They can be used in running text to tweak things in situations where the Unicode bidi algorithm would lead to the wrong result. They might also be used to tweak the display of e.g. an email address in a display widget where the Unicode bidi algorithm is used, but where you want to display the email address with some tweaks. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3987#section-4 contains a description of the problems, and in particular the later part of https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3987#section-4.1 contain a proposal of how to use these characters (on the fly for display, not as actual parts of the protocol syntax) to assure a specific display. But that part of that RFC isn't widely implemented, and there are all kinds of different opinions on how things should be displayed.
That's the problem here. You're right that that U+0040 is Bidi_Class Other_Neutral and U+002E is Common_Separator, so neither should change directionality. But that's not the problem.
It's not the only problem. If they had their own directionality, displays would vary much less, and people might just get used to what they see (the same way all of us nowadays are used to see inside-out in the domain-name part, but outside-in in the path part, of e.g. http://www.acme.com/news/latest/item1.html).
The problem is that many email addresses are of the form first-local-part.second-local-part@label.secondlabel. So let's start with the simple case:
[some ASCII characters]@arabic-string.com
now, the bidi algorithm is probably going to do something like this (at least in my reading it should):
LTR@RTL.com
Well, yes, in an LTR context (e.g. an English text). In an Arabic text (RTL context), it will be com.arabic-string@[some ASCII characters]. And in all cases, the "RTL" part will have the characters in RTL order, but that's the bit everybody is happy with (as long as there are only RTL characters in that part).
Now, what if instead it's
[some arabic characers]@arabic-string.com
? The problem is easy to see: this part
[some arabic characers]@arabic-string
should actually render
arabic-string (in rtl)@[some arabic characers] (in rtl)
And now you don't know where to put .com.
The .com will go to the right in an LTR context, and to the left (as .com) in an RTL context.
This is a genuinely hard problem for user interfaces; and again, if intuitive interfaces for native Arabic-script users have so far emerged it is news to me. (I would not be surprised that it be news -- I don't use Arabic to write anything -- but last time I checked with relevant people working on the interfaces I got a lot of wailing about this problem so I don't think I'm the only one who thinks its hard.)
Definitely you're not the only one. My understanding is that for e.g. all-Arabic (or all-Hebrew) addresses, it wouldn't be too difficult to establish a display convention for widgets, but there's the conflict between "experts" (people who also use English and are used to the order we know) and "beginners" (people who just read Arabic and may expect things to be in the same order as an address or some such). Then there's the problem that even if something works in a widget (e.g. the "To:" field in a mailer, where we know that it's an address), it won't easily work in running text (but it will surely be copied and pasted there). Then there's the problem that mono-directional stuff may work, but mixed direction (as above) may not. In particular, all-LTR ideally goes LTR, and all-RTL ideally may go RTL, so there's some place in the middle where we have a discontinuity and things suddenly switch. Then there's the problem that we may not only have e.g. domain labels with different directionality, but also mixed directionality (or a single directionality mixed with numbers, which is almost as bad) for a single label or other, similar component. Regards, Martin.
Add Unicode directionality controls and you get a wide variety of orderings
Yes, of course.
A
On 2017/04/04 06:41, Stuart Stuple via UA-EAI wrote:
I believe for plain text with no fancy Unicode values, the rendering is well-defined because the period and ampersand are both neutral and assume directionality from the surrounding characters. See http://www.w3.org/International/articles/inline-bidi-markup/uba-basics.
Add Unicode directionality controls and you get a wide variety of orderings – but that’s as true of English as it is of Arabic. See https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/murrays/2014/03/30/bidi-hyperlinks/.
When I last heard (several years ago), the Unicode consortium was still discussing whether to update the BiDi guidance to account for these cases.
"Hasn't decided on how" is definitely correct as far as I know, but "still discussing" is probably not, because I don't know of any ongoing discussion. It wouldn't be impossible to update the Unicode Bidi algorithm (which is a very clear algorithm, not just guidance) except for the fact that it's not clear how. Mail addresses, domain names, and IRIs (the version of URIs/URLs that contain non-ASCII characters) are somewhat difficult to identify in text. And then there are other artifacts that would need similar treatment, such as hash tags, the @somebody notation, and so on. And such notations keep coming up, and may also disappear. And there are cases where it's quite obvious to a human reader (assuming the reader can read Arabic or Hebrew or whatever other RTL script is in use) what the text says, but that's not necessarily easily put into a simple and straightforward (although already rather lengthy) algorithm. Regards, Martin.
Martin -- completely agreed. But I do know that the experts here at Microsoft (Murray Sargent as the key one) are still actively working on this. For our products, the ability to detect and properly display IRIs, IDNs, and EAIs is very much expected by our users. The current subscription version of Word has the best example of our current thinking. It may be necessary to specify a full protocol (mailto:) in order to trigger recognition of some EAIs at this time. The @Martin J. Dürst notation is certainly also currently implemented though only within the Outlook product at this time (I believe). Note that much of our model grew out of our early support of the file: protocol dating from Windows 95 allowing folder and file names in any writing system. And, please do not hear this as Microsoft is trying to set a standard. That's not what I mean at all. Murray serves on the Unicode groups that work with the BiDi algorithm and this remains a passion area for him. (Prior to my current role as a globalization specialist, I was the program manager lead for our text foundation systems in Office so am reasonably familiar with our end-to-end text storage, editing, and rendering stacks). -Stuart -----Original Message----- From: Martin J. Dürst [mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp] Sent: Tuesday, April 4, 2017 6:59 PM To: Stuart Stuple <stuartst@microsoft.com>; Paul Borokhov <borokhov@apple.com>; Don Hollander <don.hollander@icann.org> Cc: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@anvilwalrusden.com>; ua-eai@icann.org Subject: Re: [UA-EAI] arabic1.arabic2@arabic3.arabic4 On 2017/04/04 06:41, Stuart Stuple via UA-EAI wrote:
I believe for plain text with no fancy Unicode values, the rendering is well-defined because the period and ampersand are both neutral and assume directionality from the surrounding characters. See https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2....
Add Unicode directionality controls and you get a wide variety of orderings – but that’s as true of English as it is of Arabic. See https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fblogs.msdn.....
When I last heard (several years ago), the Unicode consortium was still discussing whether to update the BiDi guidance to account for these cases.
"Hasn't decided on how" is definitely correct as far as I know, but "still discussing" is probably not, because I don't know of any ongoing discussion. It wouldn't be impossible to update the Unicode Bidi algorithm (which is a very clear algorithm, not just guidance) except for the fact that it's not clear how. Mail addresses, domain names, and IRIs (the version of URIs/URLs that contain non-ASCII characters) are somewhat difficult to identify in text. And then there are other artifacts that would need similar treatment, such as hash tags, the @somebody notation, and so on. And such notations keep coming up, and may also disappear. And there are cases where it's quite obvious to a human reader (assuming the reader can read Arabic or Hebrew or whatever other RTL script is in use) what the text says, but that's not necessarily easily put into a simple and straightforward (although already rather lengthy) algorithm. Regards, Martin.
Dear Don and All, Thanks for raising up this important issue. Similar to an ASCII email address, an Arabic email address consists of a local part and a domain name separated by "@" sign, in the following format (read RTL): tld.domain@last.first رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعودية Here is a list of (8) examples that illustrate how email addresses (ASCII or Arabic) are displayed in English or Arabic text with RTL or LTR display modes (assuming my ascii email is raed.alfayez@raseel.sa): Case Example 1. Arabic text that contains my Arabic email in RTL display mode (right alignment) هذا نص عربي يحتوي على عنوان بريد إلكتروني عربي رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعودية ويظهر بشكل جيد عندما يكون اتجاه العرض من اليمين إلى اليسار 2. Arabic text that contains my Arabic email in LTR display (left alignment) هذا نص عربي يحتوي على عنوان بريد إلكتروني عربي رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعودية ويظهر أيضا بشكل جيد عندما يكون اتجاه العرض من اليسار إلى اليمين 3. Arabic text that contains my ASCII email in RTL display mode (right alignment) هذا نص عربي يحتوي على عنوان بريد إلكتروني لاتيني raed.alfayez@raseel.sa ويظهر بشكل جيد عندما يكون اتجاه العرض من اليمين إلى اليسار 4. Arabic text that contains my ASCII email in LTR display (left alignment) هذا نص عربي يحتوي على عنوان بريد إلكتروني لاتيني raed.alfayez@raseel.sa ويظهر بشكل متداخل عندما يكون اتجاه العرض من اليسار إلى اليمين 5. English text that contains my Arabic email in RTL display (right alignment) This is English text with an Arabic email address رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعودية that appears mixed when displayed from right-to-left 6. English text that contains my Arabic email in LTR display (left alignment) This is an English text with an Arabic email address رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعودية that appears normal when displayed from left to right 7. English text that contains my ASCII email in RTL display (right alignment) This is an English text with an ASCII email address raed.alfayez@raseel.sa that appears also normal when displayed from right to left 8. English text that contains my ASCII email in LTR display (left alignment) This is an English text with an ASCII email address raed.alfayez@raseel.sa that appears also normal when displayed from left to right Therefore, I expect that my Arabic email address (رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعودية) maintains its appearance regardless of the text language or direction of the display. Otherwise, users (readers) will get confuse. Note: I am attaching a pdf version of my original message in case it was miss-displayed by any email client. Raed ________________________________ From: Don Hollander [don.hollander@icann.org] Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2017 12:10 AM To: ua-eai@icann.org Cc: Raed Al-Fayez; Andrew Sullivan Subject: arabic1.arabic2@arabic3.arabic4 Dear all: In the above example, which is the mailbox name and which is the domain name? Andrew Sullivan tells me it’s not addressed by the protocol because it’s an implementation issue. Raed: How does Raseel handle this? Don
THanks Raed. When entering an email address, how would you treat: arabic.arabic@ascii.ascii <mailto:arabic.arabic@ascii.ascii> Would ascii HAVE to be the domain name or COULD it be the mailbox name? Could I have رسيل.السعودية@don.hollander
On 5/04/2017, at 10:09 AM, Raed Al-Fayez <rfayez@citc.gov.sa> wrote:
Dear Don and All,
Thanks for raising up this important issue.
Similar to an ASCII email address, an Arabic email address consists of a local part and a domain name separated by "@" sign, in the following format (read RTL): tld <mailto:tld.domain@last.first>. <mailto:tld.domain@last.first>domain <mailto:tld.domain@last.first>@ <mailto:tld.domain@last.first>last <mailto:tld.domain@last.first>. <mailto:tld.domain@last.first>first <mailto:tld.domain@last.first> رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعودية
Here is a list of (8) examples that illustrate how email addresses (ASCII or Arabic) are displayed in English or Arabic text with RTL or LTR display modes (assuming my ascii email is raed <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>. <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>alfayez <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>@ <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>raseel <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>. <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>sa <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>): Case Example 1. Arabic text that contains my Arabic email in RTL display mode (right alignment) هذا نص عربي يحتوي على عنوان بريد إلكتروني عربي رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعوديةويظهر بشكل جيد عندما يكون اتجاه العرض من اليمين إلى اليسار
2. Arabic text that contains my Arabic email in LTR display (left alignment) هذا نص عربي يحتوي على عنوان بريد إلكتروني عربي رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعوديةويظهر أيضا بشكل جيد عندما يكون اتجاه العرض من اليسار إلى اليمين
3. Arabic text that contains my ASCII email in RTL display mode (right alignment) هذا نص عربي يحتوي على عنوان بريد إلكتروني لاتيني raed <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>. <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>alfayez <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>@ <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>raseel <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>. <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>sa <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>ويظهر بشكل جيد عندما يكون اتجاه العرض من اليمين إلى اليسار 4. Arabic text that contains my ASCII email in LTR display (left alignment) هذا نص عربي يحتوي على عنوان بريد إلكتروني لاتيني raed <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>. <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>alfayez <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>@ <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>raseel <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>. <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>sa <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa> ويظهر بشكل متداخل عندما يكون اتجاه العرض من اليسار إلى اليمين 5. English text that contains my Arabic email in RTL display (right alignment) This is English text with an Arabic email address رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعودية that appears mixed when displayed from right-to-left
6. English text that contains my Arabic email in LTR display (left alignment) This is an English text with an Arabic email address رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعودية that appears normal when displayed from left to right
7. English text that contains my ASCII email in RTL display (right alignment) This is an English text with an ASCII email address raed <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>. <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>alfayez <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>@ <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>raseel <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>. <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>sa <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa> that appears also normal when displayed from right to left 8. English text that contains my ASCII email in LTR display (left alignment) This is an English text with an ASCII email address raed <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>. <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>alfayez <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>@ <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>raseel <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>. <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>sa <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa> that appears also normal when displayed from left to right
Therefore, I expect that my Arabic email address (رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعودية) maintains its appearance regardless of the text language or direction of the display. Otherwise, users (readers) will get confuse.
Note: I am attaching a pdf version of my original message in case it was miss-displayed by any email client.
Raed From: Don Hollander [don.hollander@icann.org <mailto:don.hollander@icann.org>] Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2017 12:10 AM To: ua-eai@icann.org <mailto:ua-eai@icann.org> Cc: Raed Al-Fayez; Andrew Sullivan Subject: arabic1.arabic2@arabic3.arabic4
Dear all:
In the above example, which is the mailbox name and which is the domain name?
Andrew Sullivan tells me it’s not addressed by the protocol because it’s an implementation issue.
Raed: How does Raseel handle this?
Don <Arabic_Emails_Display.pdf>
Don Hollander Universal Acceptance Steering Group Skype: don_hollander
Hello Don, On 2017/04/05 08:44, Don Hollander wrote:
THanks Raed.
When entering an email address,
When entering e.g. with a keyboard, logical order would be used. That is, the local part (don.holander) would be typed first, then the '@', then the domain name, from higher levels down to the TLD.
how would you treat:
arabic.arabic@ascii.ascii <mailto:arabic.arabic@ascii.ascii>
So your question may be more "how would you interpret?", I guess.
Would ascii HAVE to be the domain name or COULD it be the mailbox name?
Could I have رسيل.السعودية@don.hollander
It would be possible to have a display that shows an ASCII local name to the right of the '@', and an Arabic domain name to the left. That would happen in an RTL context (e.g. in an Arabic text). What you actually have above is that don.hollander is logically after the '@', and the Arabic text is before, which means that "hollander" is the TLD, which may be possible (but expensive :-(). You can check that by (starting a selection outside the mail address and) moving the cursor over the mail address. (I understand that you did that just to try to simulate an address with an Arabic domain name and an ASCII local part with the display order switched.) Regards, Martin.
On 5/04/2017, at 10:09 AM, Raed Al-Fayez <rfayez@citc.gov.sa> wrote:
Dear Don and All,
Thanks for raising up this important issue.
Similar to an ASCII email address, an Arabic email address consists of a local part and a domain name separated by "@" sign, in the following format (read RTL): tld <mailto:tld.domain@last.first>. <mailto:tld.domain@last.first>domain <mailto:tld.domain@last.first>@ <mailto:tld.domain@last.first>last <mailto:tld.domain@last.first>. <mailto:tld.domain@last.first>first <mailto:tld.domain@last.first> رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعودية
Here is a list of (8) examples that illustrate how email addresses (ASCII or Arabic) are displayed in English or Arabic text with RTL or LTR display modes (assuming my ascii email is raed <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>. <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>alfayez <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>@ <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>raseel <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>. <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>sa <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>): Case Example 1. Arabic text that contains my Arabic email in RTL display mode (right alignment) هذا نص عربي يحتوي على عنوان بريد إلكتروني عربي رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعوديةويظهر بشكل جيد عندما يكون اتجاه العرض من اليمين إلى اليسار
2. Arabic text that contains my Arabic email in LTR display (left alignment) هذا نص عربي يحتوي على عنوان بريد إلكتروني عربي رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعوديةويظهر أيضا بشكل جيد عندما يكون اتجاه العرض من اليسار إلى اليمين
3. Arabic text that contains my ASCII email in RTL display mode (right alignment) هذا نص عربي يحتوي على عنوان بريد إلكتروني لاتيني raed <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>. <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>alfayez <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>@ <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>raseel <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>. <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>sa <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>ويظهر بشكل جيد عندما يكون اتجاه العرض من اليمين إلى اليسار 4. Arabic text that contains my ASCII email in LTR display (left alignment) هذا نص عربي يحتوي على عنوان بريد إلكتروني لاتيني raed <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>. <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>alfayez <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>@ <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>raseel <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>. <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>sa <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa> ويظهر بشكل متداخل عندما يكون اتجاه العرض من اليسار إلى اليمين 5. English text that contains my Arabic email in RTL display (right alignment) This is English text with an Arabic email address رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعودية that appears mixed when displayed from right-to-left
6. English text that contains my Arabic email in LTR display (left alignment) This is an English text with an Arabic email address رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعودية that appears normal when displayed from left to right
7. English text that contains my ASCII email in RTL display (right alignment) This is an English text with an ASCII email address raed <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>. <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>alfayez <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>@ <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>raseel <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>. <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>sa <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa> that appears also normal when displayed from right to left 8. English text that contains my ASCII email in LTR display (left alignment) This is an English text with an ASCII email address raed <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>. <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>alfayez <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>@ <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>raseel <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>. <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>sa <mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa> that appears also normal when displayed from left to right
Therefore, I expect that my Arabic email address (رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعودية) maintains its appearance regardless of the text language or direction of the display. Otherwise, users (readers) will get confuse.
Note: I am attaching a pdf version of my original message in case it was miss-displayed by any email client.
Raed From: Don Hollander [don.hollander@icann.org <mailto:don.hollander@icann.org>] Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2017 12:10 AM To: ua-eai@icann.org <mailto:ua-eai@icann.org> Cc: Raed Al-Fayez; Andrew Sullivan Subject: arabic1.arabic2@arabic3.arabic4
Dear all:
In the above example, which is the mailbox name and which is the domain name?
Andrew Sullivan tells me it’s not addressed by the protocol because it’s an implementation issue.
Raed: How does Raseel handle this?
Don <Arabic_Emails_Display.pdf>
Don Hollander Universal Acceptance Steering Group Skype: don_hollander
_______________________________________________ UA-EAI mailing list UA-EAI@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ua-eai
-- Prof. Dr.sc. Martin J. Dürst Department of Intelligent Information Technology College of Science and Engineering Aoyama Gakuin University Fuchinobe 5-1-10, Chuo-ku, Sagamihara 252-5258 Japan
We only allow using one script (Arabic) for the email address (for both local and domain part) so no mixing between Arabic and ASCII letters, because things might get difficult to differentiate specially in the RTL/LTR contexts. Also, it will be difficult or a basic Arabic user to switch the keyboard layout when composing an email address. As a result we will not allow this email to be registered and used: رسيل.السعودية@don.hollander You can have only the following emails: دون.هولندر@رسيل.السعودية don.hollander@raseel.sa We believe this should be done at both the domain level (IDNA) and the email level (both local and server parts). Raed ________________________________ From: Don Hollander [don.hollander@icann.org] Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2017 02:44 AM To: Raed Al-Fayez Cc: ua-eai@icann.org; Andrew Sullivan Subject: Re: [Ext] RE: arabic1.arabic2@arabic3.arabic4 THanks Raed. When entering an email address, how would you treat: arabic.arabic@ascii.ascii<mailto:arabic.arabic@ascii.ascii> Would ascii HAVE to be the domain name or COULD it be the mailbox name? Could I have رسيل.السعودية@don.hollander On 5/04/2017, at 10:09 AM, Raed Al-Fayez <rfayez@citc.gov.sa<mailto:rfayez@citc.gov.sa>> wrote: Dear Don and All, Thanks for raising up this important issue. Similar to an ASCII email address, an Arabic email address consists of a local part and a domain name separated by "@" sign, in the following format (read RTL): first<mailto:tld.domain@last.first> رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعودية Here is a list of (8) examples that illustrate how email addresses (ASCII or Arabic) are displayed in English or Arabic text with RTL or LTR display modes (assuming my ascii email is sa<mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>): Case Example 1. Arabic text that contains my Arabic email in RTL display mode (right alignment) هذا نص عربي يحتوي على عنوان بريد إلكتروني عربي رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعوديةويظهر بشكل جيد عندما يكون اتجاه العرض من اليمين إلى اليسار 2. Arabic text that contains my Arabic email in LTR display (left alignment) هذا نص عربي يحتوي على عنوان بريد إلكتروني عربي رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعوديةويظهر أيضا بشكل جيد عندما يكون اتجاه العرض من اليسار إلى اليمين 3. Arabic text that contains my ASCII email in RTL display mode (right alignment) هذا نص عربي يحتوي على عنوان بريد إلكتروني لاتيني sa<mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>ويظهر بشكل جيد عندما يكون اتجاه العرض من اليمين إلى اليسار 4. Arabic text that contains my ASCII email in LTR display (left alignment) هذا نص عربي يحتوي على عنوان بريد إلكتروني لاتيني sa<mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa> ويظهر بشكل متداخل عندما يكون اتجاه العرض من اليسار إلى اليمين 5. English text that contains my Arabic email in RTL display (right alignment) This is English text with an Arabic email address رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعودية that appears mixed when displayed from right-to-left 6. English text that contains my Arabic email in LTR display (left alignment) This is an English text with an Arabic email address رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعودية that appears normal when displayed from left to right 7. English text that contains my ASCII email in RTL display (right alignment) This is an English text with an ASCII email address sa<mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa> that appears also normal when displayed from right to left 8. English text that contains my ASCII email in LTR display (left alignment) This is an English text with an ASCII email address sa<mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa> that appears also normal when displayed from left to right Therefore, I expect that my Arabic email address (رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعودية) maintains its appearance regardless of the text language or direction of the display. Otherwise, users (readers) will get confuse. Note: I am attaching a pdf version of my original message in case it was miss-displayed by any email client. Raed ________________________________ From: Don Hollander [don.hollander@icann.org<mailto:don.hollander@icann.org>] Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2017 12:10 AM To: ua-eai@icann.org<mailto:ua-eai@icann.org> Cc: Raed Al-Fayez; Andrew Sullivan Subject: arabic1.arabic2@arabic3.arabic4 Dear all: In the above example, which is the mailbox name and which is the domain name? Andrew Sullivan tells me it’s not addressed by the protocol because it’s an implementation issue. Raed: How does Raseel handle this? Don <Arabic_Emails_Display.pdf> Don Hollander Universal Acceptance Steering Group Skype: don_hollander
Hello Raed, What you do is a really very good policy, and I would recommend it to anybody concerned. It might also be a good idea if ICANN recommends it. Unfortunately, it is not something that is (or can be) limited on a protocol level. Anybody can get an ASCII domain name and set up a mail server where they accept mail for Arabic addresses, or the other way round. Regards, Martin. On 2017/04/05 15:31, Raed Al-Fayez wrote:
We only allow using one script (Arabic) for the email address (for both local and domain part) so no mixing between Arabic and ASCII letters, because things might get difficult to differentiate specially in the RTL/LTR contexts. Also, it will be difficult or a basic Arabic user to switch the keyboard layout when composing an email address.
As a result we will not allow this email to be registered and used: رسيل.السعودية@don.hollander
You can have only the following emails: دون.هولندر@رسيل.السعودية don.hollander@raseel.sa
We believe this should be done at both the domain level (IDNA) and the email level (both local and server parts).
Raed
________________________________ From: Don Hollander [don.hollander@icann.org] Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2017 02:44 AM To: Raed Al-Fayez Cc: ua-eai@icann.org; Andrew Sullivan Subject: Re: [Ext] RE: arabic1.arabic2@arabic3.arabic4
THanks Raed.
When entering an email address, how would you treat:
arabic.arabic@ascii.ascii<mailto:arabic.arabic@ascii.ascii>
Would ascii HAVE to be the domain name or COULD it be the mailbox name?
Could I have رسيل.السعودية@don.hollander
On 5/04/2017, at 10:09 AM, Raed Al-Fayez <rfayez@citc.gov.sa<mailto:rfayez@citc.gov.sa>> wrote:
Dear Don and All,
Thanks for raising up this important issue.
Similar to an ASCII email address, an Arabic email address consists of a local part and a domain name separated by "@" sign, in the following format (read RTL): first<mailto:tld.domain@last.first> رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعودية
Here is a list of (8) examples that illustrate how email addresses (ASCII or Arabic) are displayed in English or Arabic text with RTL or LTR display modes (assuming my ascii email is sa<mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>): Case
Example
1. Arabic text that contains my Arabic email in RTL display mode (right alignment)
هذا نص عربي يحتوي على عنوان بريد إلكتروني عربي رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعوديةويظهر بشكل جيد عندما يكون اتجاه العرض من اليمين إلى اليسار
2. Arabic text that contains my Arabic email in LTR display (left alignment)
هذا نص عربي يحتوي على عنوان بريد إلكتروني عربي رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعوديةويظهر أيضا بشكل جيد عندما يكون اتجاه العرض من اليسار إلى اليمين
3. Arabic text that contains my ASCII email in RTL display mode (right alignment)
هذا نص عربي يحتوي على عنوان بريد إلكتروني لاتيني sa<mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>ويظهر بشكل جيد عندما يكون اتجاه العرض من اليمين إلى اليسار
4. Arabic text that contains my ASCII email in LTR display (left alignment)
هذا نص عربي يحتوي على عنوان بريد إلكتروني لاتيني sa<mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa> ويظهر بشكل متداخل عندما يكون اتجاه العرض من اليسار إلى اليمين
5. English text that contains my Arabic email in RTL display (right alignment)
This is English text with an Arabic email address رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعودية that appears mixed when displayed from right-to-left
6. English text that contains my Arabic email in LTR display (left alignment)
This is an English text with an Arabic email address رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعودية that appears normal when displayed from left to right
7. English text that contains my ASCII email in RTL display (right alignment)
This is an English text with an ASCII email address sa<mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa> that appears also normal when displayed from right to left
8. English text that contains my ASCII email in LTR display (left alignment)
This is an English text with an ASCII email address sa<mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa> that appears also normal when displayed from left to right
Therefore, I expect that my Arabic email address (رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعودية) maintains its appearance regardless of the text language or direction of the display. Otherwise, users (readers) will get confuse.
Note: I am attaching a pdf version of my original message in case it was miss-displayed by any email client.
Raed ________________________________ From: Don Hollander [don.hollander@icann.org<mailto:don.hollander@icann.org>] Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2017 12:10 AM To: ua-eai@icann.org<mailto:ua-eai@icann.org> Cc: Raed Al-Fayez; Andrew Sullivan Subject: arabic1.arabic2@arabic3.arabic4
Dear all:
In the above example, which is the mailbox name and which is the domain name?
Andrew Sullivan tells me it’s not addressed by the protocol because it’s an implementation issue.
Raed: How does Raseel handle this?
Don <Arabic_Emails_Display.pdf>
Don Hollander Universal Acceptance Steering Group Skype: don_hollander
_______________________________________________ UA-EAI mailing list UA-EAI@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ua-eai
-- Prof. Dr.sc. Martin J. Dürst Department of Intelligent Information Technology College of Science and Engineering Aoyama Gakuin University Fuchinobe 5-1-10, Chuo-ku, Sagamihara 252-5258 Japan
For a large company, that might be problematic once EAIs are fully supported. Telling someone at Microsoft that they cannot have their email name in their preferred writing system could be seen as extremely disrespectful. Yet we are unlikely to want to have Microsoft (a trademark) localized into other writing systems and enforce matching of the domain name to the user's email name writing system. It's also interesting (and important) to understand what restrictions are already enforced or implied on the display name. As I wrote the above paragraph, I realized that everyone who has a name using the Latin script with a character not in the English alphabet tends to use the "right" character in their email display name (so Martin's ü). But I've never seen any character outside of CP1252 (with the exception of one group alias with Emoji). -Stuart -----Original Message----- From: ua-eai-bounces@icann.org [mailto:ua-eai-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Martin J. Dürst Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2017 12:58 AM To: Raed Al-Fayez <rfayez@citc.gov.sa>; Don Hollander <don.hollander@icann.org> Cc: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@anvilwalrusden.com>; ua-eai@icann.org Subject: Re: [UA-EAI] [Ext] RE: arabic1.arabic2@arabic3.arabic4 Hello Raed, What you do is a really very good policy, and I would recommend it to anybody concerned. It might also be a good idea if ICANN recommends it. Unfortunately, it is not something that is (or can be) limited on a protocol level. Anybody can get an ASCII domain name and set up a mail server where they accept mail for Arabic addresses, or the other way round. Regards, Martin. On 2017/04/05 15:31, Raed Al-Fayez wrote:
We only allow using one script (Arabic) for the email address (for both local and domain part) so no mixing between Arabic and ASCII letters, because things might get difficult to differentiate specially in the RTL/LTR contexts. Also, it will be difficult or a basic Arabic user to switch the keyboard layout when composing an email address.
As a result we will not allow this email to be registered and used: رسيل.السعودية@don.hollander
You can have only the following emails: دون.هولندر@رسيل.السعودية don.hollander@raseel.sa
We believe this should be done at both the domain level (IDNA) and the email level (both local and server parts).
Raed
________________________________ From: Don Hollander [don.hollander@icann.org] Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2017 02:44 AM To: Raed Al-Fayez Cc: ua-eai@icann.org; Andrew Sullivan Subject: Re: [Ext] RE: arabic1.arabic2@arabic3.arabic4
THanks Raed.
When entering an email address, how would you treat:
arabic.arabic@ascii.ascii<mailto:arabic.arabic@ascii.ascii>
Would ascii HAVE to be the domain name or COULD it be the mailbox name?
Could I have رسيل.السعودية@don.hollander
On 5/04/2017, at 10:09 AM, Raed Al-Fayez <rfayez@citc.gov.sa<mailto:rfayez@citc.gov.sa>> wrote:
Dear Don and All,
Thanks for raising up this important issue.
Similar to an ASCII email address, an Arabic email address consists of a local part and a domain name separated by "@" sign, in the following format (read RTL): first<mailto:tld.domain@last.first> رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعودية
Here is a list of (8) examples that illustrate how email addresses (ASCII or Arabic) are displayed in English or Arabic text with RTL or LTR display modes (assuming my ascii email is sa<mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>): Case
Example
1. Arabic text that contains my Arabic email in RTL display mode (right alignment)
هذا نص عربي يحتوي على عنوان بريد إلكتروني عربي رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعوديةويظهر بشكل جيد عندما يكون اتجاه العرض من اليمين إلى اليسار
2. Arabic text that contains my Arabic email in LTR display (left alignment)
هذا نص عربي يحتوي على عنوان بريد إلكتروني عربي رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعوديةويظهر أيضا بشكل جيد عندما يكون اتجاه العرض من اليسار إلى اليمين
3. Arabic text that contains my ASCII email in RTL display mode (right alignment)
هذا نص عربي يحتوي على عنوان بريد إلكتروني لاتيني sa<mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa>ويظهر بشكل جيد عندما يكون اتجاه العرض من اليمين إلى اليسار
4. Arabic text that contains my ASCII email in LTR display (left alignment)
هذا نص عربي يحتوي على عنوان بريد إلكتروني لاتيني sa<mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa> ويظهر بشكل متداخل عندما يكون اتجاه العرض من اليسار إلى اليمين
5. English text that contains my Arabic email in RTL display (right alignment)
This is English text with an Arabic email address رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعودية that appears mixed when displayed from right-to-left
6. English text that contains my Arabic email in LTR display (left alignment)
This is an English text with an Arabic email address رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعودية that appears normal when displayed from left to right
7. English text that contains my ASCII email in RTL display (right alignment)
This is an English text with an ASCII email address sa<mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa> that appears also normal when displayed from right to left
8. English text that contains my ASCII email in LTR display (left alignment)
This is an English text with an ASCII email address sa<mailto:raed.alfayez@raseel.sa> that appears also normal when displayed from left to right
Therefore, I expect that my Arabic email address (رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعودية) maintains its appearance regardless of the text language or direction of the display. Otherwise, users (readers) will get confuse.
Note: I am attaching a pdf version of my original message in case it was miss-displayed by any email client.
Raed ________________________________ From: Don Hollander [don.hollander@icann.org<mailto:don.hollander@icann.org>] Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2017 12:10 AM To: ua-eai@icann.org<mailto:ua-eai@icann.org> Cc: Raed Al-Fayez; Andrew Sullivan Subject: arabic1.arabic2@arabic3.arabic4
Dear all:
In the above example, which is the mailbox name and which is the domain name?
Andrew Sullivan tells me it’s not addressed by the protocol because it’s an implementation issue.
Raed: How does Raseel handle this?
Don <Arabic_Emails_Display.pdf>
Don Hollander Universal Acceptance Steering Group Skype: don_hollander
_______________________________________________ UA-EAI mailing list UA-EAI@icann.org https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmm.ic ann.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fua-eai&data=02%7C01%7Cstuartst%40exchan ge.microsoft.com%7Cb7adc8954a2945da4f7c08d47bf98c5a%7C72f988bf86f141af 91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636269759126683650&sdata=EiZ55WdQXO19hrAZFq koU3grcJdsyM2lY6lMA8WJ9rs%3D&reserved=0
-- Prof. Dr.sc. Martin J. Dürst Department of Intelligent Information Technology College of Science and Engineering Aoyama Gakuin University Fuchinobe 5-1-10, Chuo-ku, Sagamihara 252-5258 Japan _______________________________________________ UA-EAI mailing list UA-EAI@icann.org https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmm.icann.or...
On 2017/04/05 23:49, Stuart Stuple wrote:
For a large company, that might be problematic once EAIs are fully supported. Telling someone at Microsoft that they cannot have their email name in their preferred writing system could be seen as extremely disrespectful. Yet we are unlikely to want to have Microsoft (a trademark) localized into other writing systems and enforce matching of the domain name to the user's email name writing system.
Good point indeed.
It's also interesting (and important) to understand what restrictions are already enforced or implied on the display name. As I wrote the above paragraph, I realized that everyone who has a name using the Latin script with a character not in the English alphabet tends to use the "right" character in their email display name (so Martin's ü). But I've never seen any character outside of CP1252 (with the exception of one group alias with Emoji).
I'm in Japan, and have seen/am seeing a lot of people's display names in Japanese. Regards, Martin.
5 апр. 2017 г., в 22.19, Martin J. Dürst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> написал(а):
It's also interesting (and important) to understand what restrictions are already enforced or implied on the display name. As I wrote the above paragraph, I realized that everyone who has a name using the Latin script with a character not in the English alphabet tends to use the "right" character in their email display name (so Martin's ü). But I've never seen any character outside of CP1252 (with the exception of one group alias with Emoji).
I'm in Japan, and have seen/am seeing a lot of people's display names in Japanese.
Display names absolutely are used internationally today with all scripts. In Russia many (most?) people will use their Cyrillic names. I’ve seen plenty of Arabic and Hebrew as well. As long as you have a modern-enough client, this stuff just works. I do remember the AOL days though when instead you would see ?=koi8-r;lkajse instead – good times. ==== I think it is very important in these discussions to keep the distinction between visual and logical order in mind. Martin has correctly pointed this out in his replies to this thread.
we have chacked it on our email server . if some send mail to arabic-user@ascii-domain. then our email server detect it same but display reverse.
as pointed out by both Raed and Marin, there is no „detecting“ going on. The logical order is fixed, no matter how it is displayed.
The problem is that many email addresses are of the form first-local-part.second-local-part@label.secondlabel. So let's start with the simple case:
[some ASCII characters]@arabic-string.com
now, the bidi algorithm is probably going to do something like this (at least in my reading it should):
LTR@RTL.com
Well, yes, in an LTR context (e.g. an English text). In an Arabic text (RTL context), it will be com.arabic-string@[some ASCII characters]. And in all cases, the "RTL" part will have the characters in RTL order, but that's the bit everybody is happy with (as long as there are only RTL characters in that part).
One minor nitpick: since the context resets at paragraph boundaries, you could have a document that’s entirely in Arabic, but because the address is on its own line and starts with ASCII, you’d get the LTR layout even in what could be easily construed as an RTL „context“.
And the other aspect is directionality of the container.
ascii@CIBARA.com is a left-to-right container.
.com@CIBARAascii is a right-to-left container (I think -- might be .comCIBARAascii@)
Martin got this right. Took me a second to get what CIBARA meant – I think this is a really confusing way to present it. Cheers, Paul
Excellent to hear. That was my expectation but as I looked around, I found no colleagues taking advantage of the display name functionality. For me, one of the most compelling examples for EAIs are tables with entries for common names in cultures with the given name, English use name (if appropriate), display name, and then email name. My perspective is that Universal Acceptance means that the user gets to decide how these are consistent or diverges (rather than technological limitations). -Stuart -----Original Message----- From: borokhov@apple.com [mailto:borokhov@apple.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2017 11:54 PM To: "Martin J. Dürst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Cc: Stuart Stuple <stuartst@microsoft.com>; Raed Al-Fayez <rfayez@citc.gov.sa>; Don Hollander <don.hollander@icann.org>; Andrew Sullivan <ajs@anvilwalrusden.com>; ua-eai@icann.org Subject: Re: [UA-EAI] [Ext] RE: arabic1.arabic2@arabic3.arabic4
5 апр. 2017 г., в 22.19, Martin J. Dürst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> написал(а):
It's also interesting (and important) to understand what restrictions are already enforced or implied on the display name. As I wrote the above paragraph, I realized that everyone who has a name using the Latin script with a character not in the English alphabet tends to use the "right" character in their email display name (so Martin's ü). But I've never seen any character outside of CP1252 (with the exception of one group alias with Emoji).
I'm in Japan, and have seen/am seeing a lot of people's display names in Japanese.
Display names absolutely are used internationally today with all scripts. In Russia many (most?) people will use their Cyrillic names. I’ve seen plenty of Arabic and Hebrew as well. As long as you have a modern-enough client, this stuff just works. I do remember the AOL days though when instead you would see ?=koi8-r;lkajse instead – good times. ==== I think it is very important in these discussions to keep the distinction between visual and logical order in mind. Martin has correctly pointed this out in his replies to this thread.
we have chacked it on our email server . if some send mail to arabic-user@ascii-domain. then our email server detect it same but display reverse.
as pointed out by both Raed and Marin, there is no „detecting“ going on. The logical order is fixed, no matter how it is displayed.
The problem is that many email addresses are of the form first-local-part.second-local-part@label.secondlabel. So let's start with the simple case:
[some ASCII characters]@arabic-string.com
now, the bidi algorithm is probably going to do something like this (at least in my reading it should):
LTR@RTL.com
Well, yes, in an LTR context (e.g. an English text). In an Arabic text (RTL context), it will be com.arabic-string@[some ASCII characters]. And in all cases, the "RTL" part will have the characters in RTL order, but that's the bit everybody is happy with (as long as there are only RTL characters in that part).
One minor nitpick: since the context resets at paragraph boundaries, you could have a document that’s entirely in Arabic, but because the address is on its own line and starts with ASCII, you’d get the LTR layout even in what could be easily construed as an RTL „context“.
And the other aspect is directionality of the container.
ascii@CIBARA.com is a left-to-right container.
.com@CIBARAascii is a right-to-left container (I think -- might be .comCIBARAascii@)
Martin got this right. Took me a second to get what CIBARA meant – I think this is a really confusing way to present it. Cheers, Paul
On Sun, Apr 09, 2017 at 04:30:36PM +0000, Stuart Stuple wrote:
My perspective is that Universal Acceptance means that the user gets to decide how these are consistent or diverges (rather than technological limitations).
If that is your goal, I hope you realise you're going to be disappointed. Natural language processing is enormously complex and subject to a great deal of contextual error-correction and retransmission and so on. The basic insight of the Davidson "prior theory/passing theory" interpretation of how language works is that nodding of heads, "uh huh", "ok?", "get me?" and all that is not extraneous to language use, but is a deep and abiding part of it. The reason our written language gets more formal -- as we go from text messages to personal letters to emails on distribution lists to job application letters to proposals to contracts to protocols and laws to constitutions -- is because the context is gradually stripped as we ascend that staircase. It's easy for your friend to send you a ? in the even t she doesn't understand your text messasge. We have a hard time doing that to the authors of early RFCs, never mind to the authors of the US Constitution. Identifiers in computer systems are even worse than constitutions, because they have practically no context at all. This is _especially_ bad in the case of Internet identifiers, which are mostly free of almost all context, including the linguistic context of the different points involved in the network transaction. (I say "different points" because of course they can be multiple. In an email address, for instance, there is the language of the sender, the language of the receiver, the languages supported by the mail operator, and the linguistic context rules supported by each domain name administrator at each domain on the domain name path -- a context that need not be consistent down the tree.) There may be some future state in which networks have the necessary metadata to perform the right kind of linguistic negotiation along the path. At least until computers are sufficiently good at natural language processing that no human speaker of any language will detect them as being computers, that state will remain in the future. I think we can achieve some more modest goals in the meantime. Best regards, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com
Just one comment: I believe that presenting an email address within the context of a message is don't-go-there territory. An email address exists before the message and has an identity independent of the messages within which it appears. Take three contexts: a) A business card. b) A new email message where only the recipient's email address has been entered (copying it from the card). c) The same message, completed and ready to send to all of the recipients. If the address in c) is different from a)/b), then the address changed during message composition, and for which language is that ever appropriate? Arnt
Define different? As soon as you get into the bidi realm, attempting to match visually something that has been printed is a dark black hole unless you know exactly what you're doing (and most users don't). Sent from "my" iPhone 7
9 апр. 2017 г., в 13:01, Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> написал(а):
Take three contexts: a) A business card. b) A new email message where only the recipient's email address has been entered (copying it from the card). c) The same message, completed and ready to send to all of the recipients. If the address in c) is different from a)/b), then the address changed during message composition, and for which language is that ever appropriate?
You might also likely see that type difference with EA languages. The smaller keyboard and use of voice recognition may increase my incoherence. Apologies. Feel free to ask for clarification of my word choices. Get Outlook<https://aka.ms/qtex0l> for iOS On Sun, Apr 9, 2017 at 2:09 PM -0700, "Paul Borokhov" <borokhov@apple.com<mailto:borokhov@apple.com>> wrote: Define different? As soon as you get into the bidi realm, attempting to match visually something that has been printed is a dark black hole unless you know exactly what you're doing (and most users don't). Sent from "my" iPhone 7
9 апр. 2017 г., в 13:01, Arnt Gulbrandsen написал(а):
Take three contexts: a) A business card. b) A new email message where only the recipient's email address has been entered (copying it from the card). c) The same message, completed and ready to send to all of the recipients. If the address in c) is different from a)/b), then the address changed during message composition, and for which language is that ever appropriate?
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Based on https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2821#section-2.3.10 and https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2822 3.4.1. Addr-spec specification An addr-spec is a specific Internet identifier that contains a locally interpreted string followed by the at-sign character ("@", ASCII value 64) followed by an Internet domain. addr-spec = local-part "@" domain local-part = dot-atom / quoted-string / obs-local-part domain = dot-atom / domain-literal / obs-domain EAI protocol extends local-part and domain-part to allow Unicode characters,but it does not change the order. That means that local part is still in left, and domain part is still in right. Jiankang Yao From: Raed Al-Fayez Date: 2017-04-05 06:09 To: Don Hollander; ua-eai@icann.org CC: Andrew Sullivan Subject: Re: [UA-EAI] arabic1.arabic2@arabic3.arabic4 Dear Don and All, Thanks for raising up this important issue. Similar to an ASCII email address, an Arabic email address consists of a local part and a domain name separated by "@" sign, in the following format (read RTL): tld.domain@last.first رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعودية Here is a list of (8) examples that illustrate how email addresses (ASCII or Arabic) are displayed in English or Arabic text with RTL or LTR display modes (assuming my ascii email is raed.alfayez@raseel.sa): CaseExample 1. Arabic text that contains my Arabic email in RTL display mode (right alignment)هذا نص عربي يحتوي على عنوان بريد إلكتروني عربي رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعودية ويظهر بشكل جيد عندما يكون اتجاه العرض من اليمين إلى اليسار 2. Arabic text that contains my Arabic email in LTR display (left alignment)هذا نص عربي يحتوي على عنوان بريد إلكتروني عربي رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعودية ويظهر أيضا بشكل جيد عندما يكون اتجاه العرض من اليسار إلى اليمين 3. Arabic text that contains my ASCII email in RTL display mode (right alignment)هذا نص عربي يحتوي على عنوان بريد إلكتروني لاتيني raed.alfayez@raseel.sa ويظهر بشكل جيد عندما يكون اتجاه العرض من اليمين إلى اليسار 4. Arabic text that contains my ASCII email in LTR display (left alignment) هذا نص عربي يحتوي على عنوان بريد إلكتروني لاتيني raed.alfayez@raseel.sa ويظهر بشكل متداخل عندما يكون اتجاه العرض من اليسار إلى اليمين 5. English text that contains my Arabic email in RTL display (right alignment)This is English text with an Arabic email address رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعودية that appears mixed when displayed from right-to-left 6. English text that contains my Arabic email in LTR display (left alignment)This is an English text with an Arabic email address رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعودية that appears normal when displayed from left to right 7. English text that contains my ASCII email in RTL display (right alignment)This is an English text with an ASCII email address raed.alfayez@raseel.sa that appears also normal when displayed from right to left 8. English text that contains my ASCII email in LTR display (left alignment)This is an English text with an ASCII email address raed.alfayez@raseel.sa that appears also normal when displayed from left to right Therefore, I expect that my Arabic email address (رائد.الفايز@رسيل.السعودية) maintains its appearance regardless of the text language or direction of the display. Otherwise, users (readers) will get confuse. Note: I am attaching a pdf version of my original message in case it was miss-displayed by any email client. Raed From: Don Hollander [don.hollander@icann.org] Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2017 12:10 AM To: ua-eai@icann.org Cc: Raed Al-Fayez; Andrew Sullivan Subject: arabic1.arabic2@arabic3.arabic4 Dear all: In the above example, which is the mailbox name and which is the domain name? Andrew Sullivan tells me it’s not addressed by the protocol because it’s an implementation issue. Raed: How does Raseel handle this? Don
Hello Jiankang, others, On 2017/04/05 12:04, Jiankang Yao wrote:
Based on https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2821#section-2.3.10
and
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2822 3.4.1. Addr-spec specification
EAI protocol extends local-part and domain-part to allow Unicode characters,but it does not change the order. That means that local part is still in left, and domain part is still in right.
When dealing with right-to-left scripts, please be very careful. Using the words 'left' and 'right' is best only used for describing visual (display) order. The above syntax rules apply to the relevant protocols and formats, i.e. logical order. So it's better to say that the local part is first, and the domain part is last. Regards, Martin.
participants (8)
-
Andrew Sullivan -
Arnt Gulbrandsen -
Don Hollander -
Jiankang Yao -
Martin J. Dürst -
Paul Borokhov -
Raed Al-Fayez -
Stuart Stuple