Dear All, We are not expected to defend or offend any specific jurisdiction mechanism nor we are mandated to talk about the degree of free speech and association that is built into US constitutional jurisprudence .We should just limit ourselves to address the difficulties reported. Comments and or/ comparions of constitutions in terms of the degree of free speech and association that is built into that constituions is totally outside of our mandate Cheers Kavouss On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 3:57 AM, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> wrote:
ICANN is a legal creation. It doesn't exist outside the law. Objections to US jurisprudence seem to all accept that there is another jurisdiction where this reality does not apply. Such a jurisdiction does not exist because paradoxically, if local rule of law were so weak, ICANN would also be weak.
Alternative jurisdictions moreover do not support the same degree of free speech and association that is built into US constitutional jurisprudence and they would almost certainly be compelled by politics to influence ICANN to a greater degree. Changing jurisdictions, absent a well-reasoned alternative is a non-starter.
Best regards,
John Laprise, Ph.D.
http://www.linkedin.com/in/jplaprise/
-----Original Message----- From: ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org [mailto:ws2-jurisdiction- bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Thiago Braz Jardim Oliveira Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 3:24 PM To: 'Greg Shatan' <gregshatanipc@gmail.com>; Burr, Becky <Becky.Burr@team.neustar> Cc: ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org Subject: [Ws2-jurisdiction] RES: [EXTERNAL] Re: Issue: Domain seizures by US executive agencies like US customs
Dear Greg, Dear All,
It is very disturbing to anyone outside the United States that we should rely on US jurisprudence (and the advice you US lawyers are able to provide), however consistent it might be, to hope that the same United States, the only country with the necessary powers to interfere with ICANN's management of the DNS in a meaningful way, will not exercise such powers to the detriment of other countries or in ways that adversely affect the Internet in other countries.
If this issue is not properly addressed, I'm afraid Brazil will have to dissociate itself from any recommendation this subgroup provides.
Best,
Thiago
-----Mensagem original----- De: ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org [mailto:ws2-jurisdiction- bounces@icann.org] Em nome de Greg Shatan Enviada em: quarta-feira, 30 de agosto de 2017 13:27 Para: Burr, Becky Cc: ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org Assunto: Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] [EXTERNAL] Re: Issue: Domain seizures by US executive agencies like US customs
A general note on "assuming without deciding":
"Assuming without deciding" (or "assuming arguendo") is a common legal/judicial method of "leapfrogging" (i.e., bypassing) consideration of a particular issue in order to get to and decide another issue that is further down the road -- generally a more important and consequential issue. This is done when the court really wants to confront and decide the latter issue due to its importance, but sees that it will likely never get there if it decides the first issue.
There is no decision, much less any precedential value, attached to the result that is being assumed in this way. If anything, it's an indication that the matter "assumed" would be decided in the opposite fashion, which is why the court made the assumption it did -- to get to the issue it really felt needed deciding. It's essential to understand this in order to properly interpret any opinion that uses the method of "assuming without deciding."
In this particular case, it's instructive (and encouraging) that the appeals court decided to do this to get to the bigger policy issue -- as Becky put it, "a court-ordered seizure of a ccTLD would impair the interest of ICANN in a globally acceptable delegation process and possibly also impair the interest of its registrants."
As a technical matter, I believe the lower court decision on the first point still stands, since their decision was affirmed on different grounds and the appeals court did not overrule the lower court on this point. I won't get into the nuances of how to use this as precedent and where it would be seen as precedent, but it should be understood that the appeals court did not simply wash away the lower court decision.
Greg
On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 9:30 AM, Burr, Becky via Ws2-jurisdiction < ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org> wrote:
The precedent created by the decision is that a court-ordered seizure of a ccTLD would impair the interest of ICANN in a globally acceptable delegation process and possibly also impair the interest of its registrants. That supports and is consistent with the global multi stakeholder model.
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On 8/30/17, 9:00 AM, "ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org <mailto: ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Nigel Roberts" <ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org <mailto: ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of nigel@channelisles.net> wrote:
>No, it doesn't. > >The words "without deciding" are highly relevant, here, and you are >overlooking them. > >This is common practice in courts where a decision can be made without >deciding a matter that is alleged. > >The court, in this case, at first instance, DECIDED that the DC >attachment statute does not permit attachment of intangible property. > >Upon appeal, the court dismissed the Claimants' appeal on different >reasoning, without deciding whether domain names are attachable property. > >Thus there is simply no ratio to that effect that you claim that may be >relied upon even in DC, let alone act as persuasive in any other state >or common-law jurisdiction. > > > >On 30/08/17 13:47, parminder wrote: >> Nigel, I quote below Milton Mueller's email of the 24th in full, but >> putting in bold some relevant text, which negates your position below on >> tlds as property or not , parminder >> >> >> Some people have shown a lack of awareness of the nature of >> the Appeals Court decision regarding the .IR ccTLD Paul is >> discussing below. So here is our summary of its import: >> >> >> >> The latest decision in the ICANN case departed sharply from >> prior legal precedents. The court looked beyond the narrow >> issue of whether the .IR ccTLD was attachable property. /*It >> assumed, ³without deciding,² that ³the ccTLDs the >>plaintiffs >> seek constitute Œproperty¹ under the Foreign Sovereigns >> Immunity Act*/ and, further, that the defendant sovereigns >> have some attachable ownership interest in them.² Thus >> ICANN¹s weak arguments against the property status of TLDs >> had no impact on the decision. Instead, the court refused to >> allow the .IR domain to be seized because: >> >> >> >> ³the court has the ³authority² to ³prevent >>appropriately the >> impairment of an interest held by a person who is not liable >> in the action giving rise to a judgment² ‹ i.e., we are >> expressly authorized to protect the interests of ICANN and >> other entities. Because of the enormous third-party >> interests at stake‹and because there is no way to execute >>on >> the plaintiffs¹ judgments without impairing those >> interests‹we cannot permit attachment.² >> >> >> >> By ³requiring ICANN to delegate Œ.ir¹ to the >>plaintiffs,² >> the court opined, the plaintiffs ³would bypass ICANN¹s >> process for ccTLD delegation² and this would have a harmful
>> impact on the global DNS and on ICANN itself. >> >> >> >> So, to summarize: /*TLDs may well be attachable property,*/ >> but in this case, and in most conceivable ccTLD redelegation >> cases, the court decided that court-ordered seizure of the >> ccTLD would impair the interest of ICANN in a globally >> acceptable delegation process and possible also impair the >> interest of its registrants. >> >> >> >> --MM >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wednesday 30 August 2017 06:03 PM, Nigel Roberts wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 30/08/17 12:44, parminder wrote: >>> >>>> The court took up jurisdiction, and also accepted to treat gtld as >>>> sieze-able property, these are the two most important facts of the >>>>case. >>> >>> >>> The first contention is correct. The second is demonstrably incorrect. >>> >>> This case did not involve either gTLDs or domains registered under >>>them. >>> It involved the ccTLDs of three countries. .IR, .SY and .KP. >>> >>> And the court explicitly stated that domain names (of any kind) were >>> NOT seizable (attachable). >>> >>> A different answer might be given under the law of a different >>> jurisdiction, of course. >>> >>> But those are facts in that case. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Ws2-jurisdiction mailing list >>> Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org >>>
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