It's an interesting conundrum, this ISOC Global business. And one where - where else but LAC I ask? - we have engaged in this identity question. Because this is about identity. Our brethren once tried to start an ISOC Caribbean chapter; drawing membership from multiple political jurisdictions. Sintra spent months working on it. Result? Abandoned, one reason being ISOC Up So never warmed to the idea. That idea of a global member was settled So too, that of global members who are also members of a geographically-prescribed chapter, too. The idea of a chapter across multiple geographies and borders, with global members + regional + national members was too much of a mashup and harder to digest, a bridge too far. Some of us has long accepted that it is simply preposterous that the good folks classed as end users in the Cayman Islands, 45 mins from KIN by air and where they were once governed from KIN, cannot form an ALS in LACRALO. Dave Archbold (of the ccNSO and a Brit) and I would lament this condition. So I was chuffed and personally very proud of the LACRALO/Bixlab decision One small step, progress on the larger idea... In this region we still struggle to come to terms with the meaning of "domiciled" in context of representation. And even if end users need be enumerated if you are called to "represent" their interests. It is the basis of the struggle per individual membership. I have watched the arguments - and some were intellectually dishonest! - eventually shift to embrace ideas that are "fluid" in respect of identity in service of end user representation. Like the idea that once could "live" in the UK and represent. Or, you could live in Panama or Madrid or North America and still be the representative of your ALS in another country. Yes, identity is for some of us less of a social construct and more of a "branded at birth" concept. So, for example, we struggle to accept that one could be an end user representative even with a day job in the public service. Or, that one could volunteer in the public service, be a licensed professional for work and volunteer with a NGO. Or own a small business, be member of that small business organization, form and volunteer with an NGO and represent end users. Seen it all. Progress on these ideas is slow and vexatious. But as per Carlos Raul, we can go somewhere else with other mindsets, rules etc. Thats what we are called to do in service of a more perfect end user representation. The objective is and remains a more perfect representation for that 4B or so end users. So I cannot embrace immutabilty of the representation model. Let's explore! Think, explore, tinker and mashup all of these representation models. Whaddya know, something good may yet emerge. Carlton. -------------------------------------' On Thu, 19 Sep 2019, 2:17 pm Carlos Raul Gutierrez, <carlosraul@gutierrez.se> wrote:

I'm not suggesting to remove anything. There are enough ideas to change/un-change/BEND rules already (or at least this is my pre-warming impression from the last few days).

I'm just suggesting a reasonable Interpretation: that well and above of "NATIONAL"-ALS's we can go somewhere else, with other mindsets, rules, established frameworks, etc. ICANN is large. --- Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez carlosraul@gutierrez.se +506 8837 7176 Aparatado 1571-1000 COSTA RICA

El 2019-09-19 13:11, Alan Greenberg escribió:

Are you suggesting remove the concept of ALSes and have only individual members?

Alan

At 19/09/2019 12:00 PM, Eduardo Diaz wrote:

Another possibility is to keep the RALOs, so the concept of regional views is maintained, but make each of its participants individual members and remove the concept of unaffiliated.

-ed

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 10:11 PM Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca

...

wrote: This is not a result of just our "rules", but is also a core principle from the ICANN Bylaws. I quote:

The criteria and standards for the certification of At-Large Structures shall be established in such a way that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region of the RALO will predominate in the operation of each At-Large Structure within the RALO, while not necessarily excluding additional participation, compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region, by others. I see two ways of "fixing" this. Both would require a Bylaw change (certainly possible).

1. Abolish RALOs and have all ALSes and unaffiliated members be one amorphous mass. This removes the need to identify an ALS with a specific RALO, since there are none.

2. Develop the concept of an ALS which crosses RALOs and thus does not belong to any of them.

If indeed we have a potential ALS that will really help At-Large, we don't want to lose them, but I have an aversion for doing things in violation of our own rules and the ICANN Bylaws.

Alan

At 17/09/2019 11:53 PM, Maureen Hilyard wrote: Hi Olivier

Maybe the rules need changing. Just because a group has members from all over the world, why should we stop them from becoming members of At-Large.

The group currently had a leadership team whose members are all resident in the APRALO region. They are one of the few applications that I have seen that actually mentioned the DNS. As an ISOC chapter focusing on rural development, it probably has a majority of members from APRALO if all of its leadership team is from the same region.

Since our current rules only note the primary and secondary members of an ALS regardless of who is most active in our work in At-Large, when it comes to who the other members are, no-one really bothers to ask. I would hazard a guess that if we were to do an analysis (and were to be so picky) we would have several groups that have global members.

If we get active participants out of this ALS we should count ourselves lucky. That is the whole point of our ALS recruitment process. And as part of our Review we are finding that many of our processes need updating to keep up with the changing needs of the environments we are having to deal with.

EURALO itself has been faced with an anomaly which does not fit the rules, but we have found LACRALO to be very obliging to cater for it. And as we revise our ALS Criteria and Expectations we will have to include a new "rule" that allows for ALSes to participate in an event on a neighbouring country that "does not belong to the region in which they are situated". BIKLAB is now a precedent which will allow this to happen more within our system as long as there is agreement between the regions concerned.

APRALO has many small island countries in the Pacific that have been unable to participate in ICANN activities in their own right under our current rules because they are territories of big power countries (mainly in EURALO) who are given no support from their home region and would have no idea what EURALO was. Pacific countries are an anomaly because as all the 22 countries and territories of the Pacific are members of the Pacific Forum, they are therefore members of PICISOC, so in fact are members of an ALS already -- so we have international participants in our membership, even though they live in the Pacific.

Maureen

On Tue, 17 Sep 2019, 3:14 PM Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, <ocl@gih.com> wrote: Dear Maureen, I am very surprised to see this having reached the ALAC with a recommendation from APRALO that this should be accepted. This should have been picked up at Due Diligence: Internet Society Special Interest Groups are global as per the explanation on https://www.internetsociety.org/sigs This countervenes ALAC rules which specify that ALSes must be geographical. See tinyurl.com/ALAC-RoP-AdjDoc4-2013-07 "2. Be organised so that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region in which the ALS is based will predominate in the ALS' operation. The ALS may permit additional participation by others that is compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region." The key words are "be organised" - and as much as I support the work of the Internet Society Rurel Special Interest Group, rural areas are not limited to Asia. Unless there is a commitment that this SIG will restrict the majority of its membership to come from the Asia region. The explicit response of the SIG in due diligence was "this is a global SIG". I also have a concern that it would be possible to create one SIG after another in ISOC and the meaning of ALS no longer applies as you are effectively creating votes. The question of "geographical" was asked on the APRALO mailing list as recently as 11 September 2019 ( https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/pipermail/apac-discuss/2019-September/004952... ) but I do not see any response to this. Kindest regards, Olivier On 18/09/2019 01:58, ICANN At-Large Staff wrote: Dear All, The regional advice from APRALO regarding the ALS Application (307) Internet Society Rural Development Special Interest Group has been received. The following question has been posed to the ALAC: ***** Question: Does the ALAC wish to accredit the (307) Internet Society Rural Development Special Interest Group? The regional advice was to accept the application. ***** Please note that this vote will close on Tuesday, 24 September 2019 23:59 UTC.

Kind Regards, ICANN Policy Staff in support of the At-Large Community

Website: atlarge.icann.org

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Folks Let’s start with the bylaws - we - ALAC - are here to represent the interests of end users. Given the geographical spread of end users, a structure was established such that those in a region could also concentrate on the interests of users in that region - and bring that knowledge to ALAC through the RALOs. However, it is also the case that particular organizations representing the interests of a particular category of user (people with a disability, etc) have global reach and are not associated with any particular region. (If they are regionally focussed, they can join that RALAO as an organization) I do not think we should lose the RALO structure - it allows for regional as well as global participation. So I would not be in favor of in any way diminishing the RALO structure That said, we could create a category of membership that is a global organization representing the interests of end users. While it would not be associated with any particular RALO, we could find a way to allow global members who do represent end user interests. Just a thought. But I think making members of a global organization join as individuals is diminishing the importance of that organization as an Organization as a member of the community.

On Sep 20, 2019, at 9:54 AM, Maureen Hilyard <maureen.hilyard@gmail.com> wrote:

How bizarre.. it seems that ISOC makes different rules for different regions.. or it might have been under different leadership at different periods of ISOC's own history.

M.

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 1:30 PM Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com <mailto:judith@jhellerstein.com>> wrote: HI Maureen,

It could have involved getting permission from the chapters in the region. When ISOC Canada was started they had to get approval from ISOC Quebec so possibly they had to get approvals from all the countries and that was an issue or it could be a domain issue, that is what have bedeviled lots of chapters wanting to start up

Just a thought

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On 9/19/2019 7:07 PM, Maureen Hilyard wrote:

...

Hi Carlton

I can't understand how ISOC would have rejected ISOC Caribbean when we have the Pacific Islands Chapter (PICISOC) consisting of 22 countries and as well as that, the PICISOC Chair was the first Chair of APRALO.

M

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 11:59 AM Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com <mailto:carlton.samuels@gmail.com>> wrote: It's an interesting conundrum, this ISOC Global business. And one where - where else but LAC I ask? - we have engaged in this identity question. Because this is about identity.

Our brethren once tried to start an ISOC Caribbean chapter; drawing membership from multiple political jurisdictions. Sintra spent months working on it. Result? Abandoned, one reason being ISOC Up So never warmed to the idea.

That idea of a global member was settled So too, that of global members who are also members of a geographically-prescribed chapter, too.

The idea of a chapter across multiple geographies and borders, with global members + regional + national members was too much of a mashup and harder to digest, a bridge too far.

Some of us has long accepted that it is simply preposterous that the good folks classed as end users in the Cayman Islands, 45 mins from KIN by air and where they were once governed from KIN, cannot form an ALS in LACRALO. Dave Archbold (of the ccNSO and a Brit) and I would lament this condition. So I was chuffed and personally very proud of the LACRALO/Bixlab decision One small step, progress on the larger idea...

In this region we still struggle to come to terms with the meaning of "domiciled" in context of representation. And even if end users need be enumerated if you are called to "represent" their interests. It is the basis of the struggle per individual membership.

I have watched the arguments - and some were intellectually dishonest! - eventually shift to embrace ideas that are "fluid" in respect of identity in service of end user representation.

Like the idea that once could "live" in the UK and represent. Or, you could live in Panama or Madrid or North America and still be the representative of your ALS in another country.

Yes, identity is for some of us less of a social construct and more of a "branded at birth" concept.

So, for example, we struggle to accept that one could be an end user representative even with a day job in the public service.

Or, that one could volunteer in the public service, be a licensed professional for work and volunteer with a NGO.

Or own a small business, be member of that small business organization, form and volunteer with an NGO and represent end users.

Seen it all.

Progress on these ideas is slow and vexatious. But as per Carlos Raul, we can go somewhere else with other mindsets, rules etc. Thats what we are called to do in service of a more perfect end user representation.

The objective is and remains a more perfect representation for that 4B or so end users. So I cannot embrace immutabilty of the representation model. Let's explore! Think, explore, tinker and mashup all of these representation models. Whaddya know, something good may yet emerge.

Carlton.

-------------------------------------' On Thu, 19 Sep 2019, 2:17 pm Carlos Raul Gutierrez, <carlosraul@gutierrez.se <mailto:carlosraul@gutierrez.se>> wrote: I'm not suggesting to remove anything. There are enough ideas to change/un-change/BEND rules already (or at least this is my pre-warming impression from the last few days).

I'm just suggesting a reasonable Interpretation: that well and above of "NATIONAL"-ALS's we can go somewhere else, with other mindsets, rules, established frameworks, etc. ICANN is large.

--- Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez carlosraul@gutierrez.se <mailto:carlosraul@gutierrez.se> +506 8837 7176 Aparatado 1571-1000 COSTA RICA

El 2019-09-19 13:11, Alan Greenberg escribió:

...

Are you suggesting remove the concept of ALSes and have only individual members?

Alan

At 19/09/2019 12:00 PM, Eduardo Diaz wrote: Another possibility is to keep the RALOs, so the concept of regional views is maintained, but make each of its participants individual members and remove the concept of unaffiliated.

-ed

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 10:11 PM Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca <mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> > wrote: This is not a result of just our "rules", but is also a core principle from the ICANN Bylaws. I quote:

The criteria and standards for the certification of At-Large Structures shall be established in such a way that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region of the RALO will predominate in the operation of each At-Large Structure within the RALO, while not necessarily excluding additional participation, compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region, by others.

I see two ways of "fixing" this. Both would require a Bylaw change (certainly possible).

1. Abolish RALOs and have all ALSes and unaffiliated members be one amorphous mass. This removes the need to identify an ALS with a specific RALO, since there are none.

2. Develop the concept of an ALS which crosses RALOs and thus does not belong to any of them.

If indeed we have a potential ALS that will really help At-Large, we don't want to lose them, but I have an aversion for doing things in violation of our own rules and the ICANN Bylaws.

Alan

At 17/09/2019 11:53 PM, Maureen Hilyard wrote: Hi Olivier

Maybe the rules need changing. Just because a group has members from all over the world, why should we stop them from becoming members of At-Large.

The group currently had a leadership team whose members are all resident in the APRALO region. They are one of the few applications that I have seen that actually mentioned the DNS. As an ISOC chapter focusing on rural development, it probably has a majority of members from APRALO if all of its leadership team is from the same region.

Since our current rules only note the primary and secondary members of an ALS regardless of who is most active in our work in At-Large, when it comes to who the other members are, no-one really bothers to ask. I would hazard a guess that if we were to do an analysis (and were to be so picky) we would have several groups that have global members.

If we get active participants out of this ALS we should count ourselves lucky. That is the whole point of our ALS recruitment process. And as part of our Review we are finding that many of our processes need updating to keep up with the changing needs of the environments we are having to deal with.

EURALO itself has been faced with an anomaly which does not fit the rules, but we have found LACRALO to be very obliging to cater for it. And as we revise our ALS Criteria and Expectations we will have to include a new "rule" that allows for ALSes to participate in an event on a neighbouring country that "does not belong to the region in which they are situated". BIKLAB is now a precedent which will allow this to happen more within our system as long as there is agreement between the regions concerned.

APRALO has many small island countries in the Pacific that have been unable to participate in ICANN activities in their own right under our current rules because they are territories of big power countries (mainly in EURALO) who are given no support from their home region and would have no idea what EURALO was. Pacific countries are an anomaly because as all the 22 countries and territories of the Pacific are members of the Pacific Forum, they are therefore members of PICISOC, so in fact are members of an ALS already -- so we have international participants in our membership, even though they live in the Pacific.

Maureen

On Tue, 17 Sep 2019, 3:14 PM Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, <ocl@gih.com <mailto:ocl@gih.com>> wrote: Dear Maureen, I am very surprised to see this having reached the ALAC with a recommendation from APRALO that this should be accepted. This should have been picked up at Due Diligence: Internet Society Special Interest Groups are global as per the explanation on https://www.internetsociety.org/sigs <https://www.internetsociety.org/sigs> This countervenes ALAC rules which specify that ALSes must be geographical. See tinyurl.com/ALAC-RoP-AdjDoc4-2013-07 <http://tinyurl.com/ALAC-RoP-AdjDoc4-2013-07> "2. Be organised so that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region in which the ALS is based will predominate in the ALS' operation. The ALS may permit additional participation by others that is compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region." The key words are "be organised" - and as much as I support the work of the Internet Society Rurel Special Interest Group, rural areas are not limited to Asia. Unless there is a commitment that this SIG will restrict the majority of its membership to come from the Asia region. The explicit response of the SIG in due diligence was "this is a global SIG". I also have a concern that it would be possible to create one SIG after another in ISOC and the meaning of ALS no longer applies as you are effectively creating votes. The question of "geographical" was asked on the APRALO mailing list as recently as 11 September 2019 ( https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/pipermail/apac-discuss/2019-September/004952... <https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/pipermail/apac-discuss/2019-September/004952...> ) but I do not see any response to this. Kindest regards, Olivier On 18/09/2019 01:58, ICANN At-Large Staff wrote: Dear All,

The regional advice from APRALO regarding the ALS Application (307) Internet Society Rural Development Special Interest Group has been received.

The following question has been posed to the ALAC:

***** Question: Does the ALAC wish to accredit the (307) Internet Society Rural Development Special Interest Group? The regional advice was to accept the application. *****

Please note that this vote will close on Tuesday, 24 September 2019 23:59 UTC.

Kind Regards,

ICANN Policy Staff in support of the At-Large Community

Website: atlarge.icann.org <https://atlarge.icann.org/>

Facebook: facebook.com/icann <https://www.facebook.com/icannatlarge> atlarge <https://www.facebook.com/icannatlarge> Twitter: @ <https://twitter.com/ICANNAtLarge> ICANNAtLarge <https://twitter.com/ICANNAtLarge>

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Maureen: No, I was suggesting that we eliminate the ALs concept all together and make everyone Individual Members. The way I see it the more I liked even though I was initially in disagreement with this when the final review report was published. The way we are set-up today is around who has voting rights and who does not. Let's take as an example the ALs that is under the ALAC vote know. This is an ISOC global organization. If it gets approved to become part of the APRALO then those members that are not in the AP region will not be able to be affiliated with their own region at all because they are affiliated somewhere else. This set-up is certainly not good for engagement. -ed On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 3:51 PM Maureen Hilyard <maureen.hilyard@gmail.com> wrote:

I thought Eduardo was suggesting that those who were not from the region within such a group could apply for individual membership, but whereas our qualification for individual membership is currently only unaffiliated, that we might also have affiliated members to cater for this category of members - perhaps as observers from another region, which was a classification that Roberto wanted to raise in Montreal. Perhaps we should have a session on this on Sat/Sun.

M

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:11 AM Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> wrote:

...

Are you suggesting remove the concept of ALSes and have only individual members?

Alan

At 19/09/2019 12:00 PM, Eduardo Diaz wrote:

Another possibility is to keep the RALOs, so the concept of regional views is maintained, but make each of its participants individual members and remove the concept of unaffiliated.

-ed

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 10:11 PM Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca

...

wrote: This is not a result of just our "rules", but is also a core principle from the ICANN Bylaws. I quote:

The criteria and standards for the certification of At-Large Structures shall be established in such a way that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region of the RALO will predominate in the operation of each At-Large Structure within the RALO, while not necessarily excluding additional participation, compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region, by others.

I see two ways of "fixing" this. Both would require a Bylaw change (certainly possible).

1. Abolish RALOs and have all ALSes and unaffiliated members be one amorphous mass. This removes the need to identify an ALS with a specific RALO, since there are none.

2. Develop the concept of an ALS which crosses RALOs and thus does not belong to any of them.

If indeed we have a potential ALS that will really help At-Large, we don't want to lose them, but I have an aversion for doing things in violation of our own rules and the ICANN Bylaws.

Alan

At 17/09/2019 11:53 PM, Maureen Hilyard wrote:

Hi Olivier

Maybe the rules need changing. Just because a group has members from all over the world, why should we stop them from becoming members of At-Large.

The group currently had a leadership team whose members are all resident in the APRALO region. They are one of the few applications that I have seen that actually mentioned the DNS. As an ISOC chapter focusing on rural development, it probably has a majority of members from APRALO if all of its leadership team is from the same region.

Since our current rules only note the primary and secondary members of an ALS regardless of who is most active in our work in At-Large, when it comes to who the other members are, no-one really bothers to ask. I would hazard a guess that if we were to do an analysis (and were to be so picky) we would have several groups that have global members.

If we get active participants out of this ALS we should count ourselves lucky. That is the whole point of our ALS recruitment process. And as part of our Review we are finding that many of our processes need updating to keep up with the changing needs of the environments we are having to deal with.

EURALO itself has been faced with an anomaly which does not fit the rules, but we have found LACRALO to be very obliging to cater for it. And as we revise our ALS Criteria and Expectations we will have to include a new "rule" that allows for ALSes to participate in an event on a neighbouring country that "does not belong to the region in which they are situated". BIKLAB is now a precedent which will allow this to happen more within our system as long as there is agreement between the regions concerned.

APRALO has many small island countries in the Pacific that have been unable to participate in ICANN activities in their own right under our current rules because they are territories of big power countries (mainly in EURALO) who are given no support from their home region and would have no idea what EURALO was. Pacific countries are an anomaly because as all the 22 countries and territories of the Pacific are members of the Pacific Forum, they are therefore members of PICISOC, so in fact are members of an ALS already -- so we have international participants in our membership, even though they live in the Pacific.

Maureen

On Tue, 17 Sep 2019, 3:14 PM Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, <ocl@gih.com> wrote: Dear Maureen, I am very surprised to see this having reached the ALAC with a recommendation from APRALO that this should be accepted. This should have been picked up at Due Diligence: Internet Society Special Interest Groups are global as per the explanation on https://www.internetsociety.org/sigs This countervenes ALAC rules which specify that ALSes must be geographical. See tinyurl.com/ALAC-RoP-AdjDoc4-2013-07 "2. Be organised so that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region in which the ALS is based will predominate in the ALS' operation. The ALS may permit additional participation by others that is compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region." The key words are "be organised" - and as much as I support the work of the Internet Society Rurel Special Interest Group, rural areas are not limited to Asia. Unless there is a commitment that this SIG will restrict the majority of its membership to come from the Asia region. The explicit response of the SIG in due diligence was "this is a global SIG". I also have a concern that it would be possible to create one SIG after another in ISOC and the meaning of ALS no longer applies as you are effectively creating votes. The question of "geographical" was asked on the APRALO mailing list as recently as 11 September 2019 ( https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/pipermail/apac-discuss/2019-September/004952... ) but I do not see any response to this. Kindest regards, Olivier On 18/09/2019 01:58, ICANN At-Large Staff wrote:

Dear All,

The regional advice from APRALO regarding the ALS Application (307) Internet Society Rural Development Special Interest Group has been received.

The following question has been posed to the ALAC:

***** Question: Does the ALAC wish to accredit the (307) Internet Society Rural Development Special Interest Group? The regional advice was to accept the application. *****

Please note that this vote will close on Tuesday, 24 September 2019 23:59 UTC.

Kind Regards,

ICANN Policy Staff in support of the At-Large Community

Website: atlarge.icann.org

Facebook: facebook.com/icann <https://www.facebook.com/icannatlarge> atlarge <https://www.facebook.com/icannatlarge> Twitter: @ <https://twitter.com/ICANNAtLarge> ICANNAtLarge <https://twitter.com/ICANNAtLarge>

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Sergio, please clarify if your ipiniòn is personal or LACRALO. Regards Alberto De: ALAC <alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> en nombre de Sergio Salinas Porto <presidencia@internauta.org.ar> Fecha: jueves, 19 de septiembre de 2019, 17:57 Para: Eduardo Diaz <eduardodiazrivera@gmail.com> CC: ALAC <alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org>, Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> Asunto: Re: [ALAC] [ALAC-Announce] VOTE ANNOUNCEMENT: ALS Application (307) Internet Society Rural Development Special Interest Group Dear, I hope the google translator works well. Without offending, I think we are missing the road. If any of those who are here are in conflict with whether they represent a collective interest or if they represent themselves, it would be good to know. I don't have that conflict and neither do my regional partners. The ALS are representatives of organizations of Internet users accredited as such for the defense of the interests of the users of our countries, we represent collective and non-individual interests. Individual interests should, in my opinion, be addressed elsewhere than ALAC (they could create another constituency and propose it to the ICANN board). We were obliged to accept individual users and we have done so much to our regret, I think we should not pull more of the rope. For me, such a discussion is just a waste of time. Sergio Salinas Porto Presidente Internauta Argentina - LACRALO/ICANN Asociación Argentina de Usuarios de Internet/FeTIA FUILAC- Federación de Usuarios de Internet de LAC facebook: salinasporto twitter:  sergiosalinas Mobi:+54 9 223 5 215819 "Ojalá podamos ser desobedientes, cada vez que recibimos órdenes que humillan nuestra  conciencia o violan nuestro sentido común" Eduardo Galeano El jue., 19 sept. 2019 a las 17:38, Eduardo Diaz (<eduardodiazrivera@gmail.com>) escribió: Maureen: No, I was suggesting that we eliminate the ALs concept all together and make everyone Individual Members. The way I see it the more I liked even though I was initially in disagreement with this when the final review report was published. The way we are set-up today is around who has voting rights and who does not. Let's take as an example the ALs that is under the ALAC vote know. This is an ISOC global organization. If it gets approved to become part of the APRALO then those members that are not in the AP region will not be able to be affiliated with their own region at all because they are affiliated somewhere else. This set-up is certainly not good for engagement. -ed On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 3:51 PM Maureen Hilyard <maureen.hilyard@gmail.com> wrote: I thought Eduardo was suggesting that those who were not from the region within such a group could apply for individual membership, but whereas our qualification for individual membership is currently only unaffiliated, that we might also have affiliated members to cater for this category of members - perhaps as observers from another region, which was a classification that Roberto wanted to raise in Montreal. Perhaps we should have a session on this on Sat/Sun. M On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:11 AM Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> wrote: Are you suggesting remove the concept of ALSes and have only individual members? Alan At 19/09/2019 12:00 PM, Eduardo Diaz wrote: Another possibility is to keep the RALOs, so the concept of regional views is maintained, but make each of its participants individual members and remove the concept of unaffiliated. -ed On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 10:11 PM Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca > wrote: This is not a result of just our "rules", but is also a core principle from the ICANN Bylaws. I quote: The criteria and standards for the certification of At-Large Structures shall be established in such a way that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region of the RALO will predominate in the operation of each At-Large Structure within the RALO, while not necessarily excluding additional participation, compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region, by others. I see two ways of "fixing" this. Both would require a Bylaw change (certainly possible). 1. Abolish RALOs and have all ALSes and unaffiliated members be one amorphous mass. This removes the need to identify an ALS with a specific RALO, since there are none. 2. Develop the concept of an ALS which crosses RALOs and thus does not belong to any of them. If indeed we have a potential ALS that will really help At-Large, we don't want to lose them, but I have an aversion for doing things in violation of our own rules and the ICANN Bylaws. Alan At 17/09/2019 11:53 PM, Maureen Hilyard wrote: Hi Olivier Maybe the rules need changing. Just because a group has members from all over the world, why should we stop them from becoming members of At-Large. The group currently had a leadership team whose members are all resident in the APRALO region. They are one of the few applications that I have seen that actually mentioned the DNS. As an ISOC chapter focusing on rural development, it probably has a majority of members from APRALO if all of its leadership team is from the same region. Since our current rules only note the primary and secondary members of an ALS regardless of who is most active in our work in At-Large, when it comes to who the other members are, no-one really bothers to ask. I would hazard a guess that if we were to do an analysis (and were to be so picky) we would have several groups that have global members. If we get active participants out of this ALS we should count ourselves lucky. That is the whole point of our ALS recruitment process. And as part of our Review we are finding that many of our processes need updating to keep up with the changing needs of the environments we are having to deal with. EURALO itself has been faced with an anomaly which does not fit the rules, but we have found LACRALO to be very obliging to cater for it. And as we revise our ALS Criteria and Expectations we will have to include a new "rule" that allows for ALSes to participate in an event on a neighbouring country that "does not belong to the region in which they are situated". BIKLAB is now a precedent which will allow this to happen more within our system as long as there is agreement between the regions concerned. APRALO has many small island countries in the Pacific that have been unable to participate in ICANN activities in their own right under our current rules because they are territories of big power countries (mainly in EURALO) who are given no support from their home region and would have no idea what EURALO was. Pacific countries are an anomaly because as all the 22 countries and territories of the Pacific are members of the Pacific Forum, they are therefore members of PICISOC, so in fact are members of an ALS already -- so we have international participants in our membership, even though they live in the Pacific. Maureen On Tue, 17 Sep 2019, 3:14 PM Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, <ocl@gih.com> wrote: Dear Maureen, I am very surprised to see this having reached the ALAC with a recommendation from APRALO that this should be accepted. This should have been picked up at Due Diligence: Internet Society Special Interest Groups are global as per the explanation on https://www.internetsociety.org/sigs This countervenes ALAC rules which specify that ALSes must be geographical. See tinyurl.com/ALAC-RoP-AdjDoc4-2013-07 "2. Be organised so that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region in which the ALS is based will predominate in the ALS' operation. The ALS may permit additional participation by others that is compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region." The key words are "be organised" - and as much as I support the work of the Internet Society Rurel Special Interest Group, rural areas are not limited to Asia. Unless there is a commitment that this SIG will restrict the majority of its membership to come from the Asia region. The explicit response of the SIG in due diligence was "this is a global SIG". I also have a concern that it would be possible to create one SIG after another in ISOC and the meaning of ALS no longer applies as you are effectively creating votes. The question of "geographical" was asked on the APRALO mailing list as recently as 11 September 2019 ( https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/pipermail/apac-discuss/2019-September/004952... ) but I do not see any response to this. Kindest regards, Olivier On 18/09/2019 01:58, ICANN At-Large Staff wrote: Dear All, The regional advice from APRALO regarding the ALS Application (307) Internet Society Rural Development Special Interest Group has been received. The following question has been posed to the ALAC: ***** Question: Does the ALAC wish to accredit the (307) Internet Society Rural Development Special Interest Group? The regional advice was to accept the application. ***** Please note that this vote will close on Tuesday, 24 September 2019 23:59 UTC. Kind Regards, ICANN Policy Staff in support of the At-Large Community Website: atlarge.icann.org Facebook: facebook.com/icann atlarge Twitter: @ ICANNAtLarge _______________________________________________ ALAC-Announce mailing list ALAC-Announce@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac-announce At-Large Official Site: http://www.atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA... ) _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA...) _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. -- NOTICE: This email may contain information which is confidential and/or subject to legal privilege, and is intended for the use of the named addressee only. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use, disclose or copy any part of this email. If you have received this email by mistake, please notify the sender and delete this message immediately. -- NOTICE: This email may contain information which is confidential and/or subject to legal privilege, and is intended for the use of the named addressee only. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use, disclose or copy any part of this email. If you have received this email by mistake, please notify the sender and delete this message immediately. _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA...) _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). 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Only it wasn't clear Sergio. Regards Alberto De: ALAC <alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> en nombre de Sergio Salinas Porto <presidencia@internauta.org.ar> Fecha: jueves, 19 de septiembre de 2019, 17:57 Para: Eduardo Diaz <eduardodiazrivera@gmail.com> CC: ALAC <alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org>, Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> Asunto: Re: [ALAC] [ALAC-Announce] VOTE ANNOUNCEMENT: ALS Application (307) Internet Society Rural Development Special Interest Group Dear, I hope the google translator works well. Without offending, I think we are missing the road. If any of those who are here are in conflict with whether they represent a collective interest or if they represent themselves, it would be good to know. I don't have that conflict and neither do my regional partners. The ALS are representatives of organizations of Internet users accredited as such for the defense of the interests of the users of our countries, we represent collective and non-individual interests. Individual interests should, in my opinion, be addressed elsewhere than ALAC (they could create another constituency and propose it to the ICANN board). We were obliged to accept individual users and we have done so much to our regret, I think we should not pull more of the rope. For me, such a discussion is just a waste of time. Sergio Salinas Porto Presidente Internauta Argentina - LACRALO/ICANN Asociación Argentina de Usuarios de Internet/FeTIA FUILAC- Federación de Usuarios de Internet de LAC facebook: salinasporto twitter:  sergiosalinas Mobi:+54 9 223 5 215819 "Ojalá podamos ser desobedientes, cada vez que recibimos órdenes que humillan nuestra  conciencia o violan nuestro sentido común" Eduardo Galeano El jue., 19 sept. 2019 a las 17:38, Eduardo Diaz (<eduardodiazrivera@gmail.com>) escribió: Maureen: No, I was suggesting that we eliminate the ALs concept all together and make everyone Individual Members. The way I see it the more I liked even though I was initially in disagreement with this when the final review report was published. The way we are set-up today is around who has voting rights and who does not. Let's take as an example the ALs that is under the ALAC vote know. This is an ISOC global organization. If it gets approved to become part of the APRALO then those members that are not in the AP region will not be able to be affiliated with their own region at all because they are affiliated somewhere else. This set-up is certainly not good for engagement. -ed On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 3:51 PM Maureen Hilyard <maureen.hilyard@gmail.com> wrote: I thought Eduardo was suggesting that those who were not from the region within such a group could apply for individual membership, but whereas our qualification for individual membership is currently only unaffiliated, that we might also have affiliated members to cater for this category of members - perhaps as observers from another region, which was a classification that Roberto wanted to raise in Montreal. Perhaps we should have a session on this on Sat/Sun. M On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:11 AM Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> wrote: Are you suggesting remove the concept of ALSes and have only individual members? Alan At 19/09/2019 12:00 PM, Eduardo Diaz wrote: Another possibility is to keep the RALOs, so the concept of regional views is maintained, but make each of its participants individual members and remove the concept of unaffiliated. -ed On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 10:11 PM Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca > wrote: This is not a result of just our "rules", but is also a core principle from the ICANN Bylaws. I quote: The criteria and standards for the certification of At-Large Structures shall be established in such a way that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region of the RALO will predominate in the operation of each At-Large Structure within the RALO, while not necessarily excluding additional participation, compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region, by others. I see two ways of "fixing" this. Both would require a Bylaw change (certainly possible). 1. Abolish RALOs and have all ALSes and unaffiliated members be one amorphous mass. This removes the need to identify an ALS with a specific RALO, since there are none. 2. Develop the concept of an ALS which crosses RALOs and thus does not belong to any of them. If indeed we have a potential ALS that will really help At-Large, we don't want to lose them, but I have an aversion for doing things in violation of our own rules and the ICANN Bylaws. Alan At 17/09/2019 11:53 PM, Maureen Hilyard wrote: Hi Olivier Maybe the rules need changing. Just because a group has members from all over the world, why should we stop them from becoming members of At-Large. The group currently had a leadership team whose members are all resident in the APRALO region. They are one of the few applications that I have seen that actually mentioned the DNS. As an ISOC chapter focusing on rural development, it probably has a majority of members from APRALO if all of its leadership team is from the same region. Since our current rules only note the primary and secondary members of an ALS regardless of who is most active in our work in At-Large, when it comes to who the other members are, no-one really bothers to ask. I would hazard a guess that if we were to do an analysis (and were to be so picky) we would have several groups that have global members. If we get active participants out of this ALS we should count ourselves lucky. That is the whole point of our ALS recruitment process. And as part of our Review we are finding that many of our processes need updating to keep up with the changing needs of the environments we are having to deal with. EURALO itself has been faced with an anomaly which does not fit the rules, but we have found LACRALO to be very obliging to cater for it. And as we revise our ALS Criteria and Expectations we will have to include a new "rule" that allows for ALSes to participate in an event on a neighbouring country that "does not belong to the region in which they are situated". BIKLAB is now a precedent which will allow this to happen more within our system as long as there is agreement between the regions concerned. APRALO has many small island countries in the Pacific that have been unable to participate in ICANN activities in their own right under our current rules because they are territories of big power countries (mainly in EURALO) who are given no support from their home region and would have no idea what EURALO was. Pacific countries are an anomaly because as all the 22 countries and territories of the Pacific are members of the Pacific Forum, they are therefore members of PICISOC, so in fact are members of an ALS already -- so we have international participants in our membership, even though they live in the Pacific. Maureen On Tue, 17 Sep 2019, 3:14 PM Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, <ocl@gih.com> wrote: Dear Maureen, I am very surprised to see this having reached the ALAC with a recommendation from APRALO that this should be accepted. This should have been picked up at Due Diligence: Internet Society Special Interest Groups are global as per the explanation on https://www.internetsociety.org/sigs This countervenes ALAC rules which specify that ALSes must be geographical. See tinyurl.com/ALAC-RoP-AdjDoc4-2013-07 "2. Be organised so that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region in which the ALS is based will predominate in the ALS' operation. The ALS may permit additional participation by others that is compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region." The key words are "be organised" - and as much as I support the work of the Internet Society Rurel Special Interest Group, rural areas are not limited to Asia. Unless there is a commitment that this SIG will restrict the majority of its membership to come from the Asia region. The explicit response of the SIG in due diligence was "this is a global SIG". I also have a concern that it would be possible to create one SIG after another in ISOC and the meaning of ALS no longer applies as you are effectively creating votes. The question of "geographical" was asked on the APRALO mailing list as recently as 11 September 2019 ( https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/pipermail/apac-discuss/2019-September/004952... ) but I do not see any response to this. Kindest regards, Olivier On 18/09/2019 01:58, ICANN At-Large Staff wrote: Dear All, The regional advice from APRALO regarding the ALS Application (307) Internet Society Rural Development Special Interest Group has been received. The following question has been posed to the ALAC: ***** Question: Does the ALAC wish to accredit the (307) Internet Society Rural Development Special Interest Group? The regional advice was to accept the application. ***** Please note that this vote will close on Tuesday, 24 September 2019 23:59 UTC. 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