Hi Steve, I am not proposing to tear it up, although your raising it a possibility made me think it could be an alternative. After all, when the PDP WG deliberated this, the EWG was still in its infancy and a common whois system seemed like a good idea. Now that the GNSO is working on establishing an alternate RDS which admittedly is still years on the horizon means that ultimately the thick whois model this group is trying to find an implementation for will in all likelyhood ultimately end up being superseded. This is why I am advocating a very lightweight transition model. Limit the implementation needs to the barest minimum possible. For example, who needs new EPP extentions and contacts for resellers when the same can be achieved with existing means. All our work here should be undertaken with the awareness of the very real possibility that we are working on something ultimately destined the trash can. Best regards, Volker Am 09.09.2016 um 10:05 schrieb gtheo:
Hi Steve, et al.
I guess that listing those benefits wasn't the greatest move on my part and could be perceived as I am suggesting :"Let's tear this thing up". Though it does somewhat highlight the fact that there is currently nothing wrong with the thin WHOIS in the sense that anything is broken here operational wise, and needs fixing ASAP.
However, I am not suggesting to tear it up, beside that is not up to us anyways. Furthermore, I am NOT even sure if that is the solution anyways. It is that complex.
I do think we have not explored all the options. Let me elaborate on that some more and make a suggestion to the IRT and ICANN staff.
This morning I had a conversation with the Dutch Registry for .Amsterdam and .FRL to get more feedback on their process, to deal with the situation with their Thick WHOIS issues. Turns out they are currently having a discussion with ICANN GDD and from what I heard they are making progress. I find this highly interesting as there is no trigger they can use for the old waiver process from 2006.
I would suggest if there are no objections we ask Cyrus from the GDD to attend our next call or participate on the list and give us more info on: -how does it work? -what are the timelines? -expected duration? -what are the practical issues? -etc
If we get more insight here then perhaps we can streamline this and make it work?
The only issue here is, that it seems out of scope for the IRT. Yet it may be a path forward for us.
Best regards,
Theo
Metalitz, Steven schreef op 2016-09-08 05:25 PM:
Theo’s ruminations lead me to repeat the questions I posed to Marc last week about his draft memo:
(1) The first two developments to which you cite are the invalidation of the US-EU Safe Harbor Program and the adoption of the EU-US Privacy Shield framework to replace it. My impression is that US registries generally did not rely upon the Safe Harbor in processing thick Whois data (e.g., receiving Whois data containing personally identifiable information from European registrars and making it available through registry Whois), and so would not have been directly impacted by its invalidation. Is my impression wrong? If I am correct then what is the relevance of either the Safe Harbor or the Privacy Shield in this context?
(2) The last paragraph refers to data localization laws apart from EU privacy/data protection laws. Can you be more specific? I note that the Russian law was referenced in footnotes 2 and 10 of the legal review provided to the IRT in June 2015, are there other issues not covered by that analysis?
(3) If the IRT were to send this letter, the GNSO council might well ask what (if anything) we are asking them to do. How would you respond?
In particular, If I understand Theo correctly, his answer to #3 would be “please tear up the consensus policy recommended by the Working Group, adopted by the GNSO Council, and approved by the ICANN board, it is obsolete, and let’s not waste [further] time implementing it.” Is that reading correct, and do others in the IRT support that?
STEVEN J. METALITZ | PARTNER, THROUGH HIS PROFESSIONAL CORPORATION
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FROM: gtheo [mailto:gtheo@xs4all.nl] SENT: Thursday, September 08, 2016 6:57 AM TO: Marika Konings; Metalitz, Steven; 'Volker Greimann' CC: gnso-impl-thickwhois-rt@icann.org SUBJECT: Re: [Gnso-impl-thickwhois-rt] [for iRT review] Draft Thick Whois Transition Policy for .COM, .NET, and .JOBS
Interesting review. After reading it I agree with Volker here.
Few things that stood out.
It seems the focus was put on the 95/46/EC Directive (makes sense) but Safe Harbor was not included in. I am not sure if that was intended? I would not be surprised that anyone ever thought that it would be a possibility that it would be invalidated, and what the consequences are.
Anyways, we just need a good procedure for this IRT. The legal review does not address the current impediment, so that is not up to us.
What is up to us, maybe, are the benefits mentioned in the legal review (page5)?
Let me list them: 1. A thick Whois model offers attractive archival and restoration properties. If a registrar were to go out of business or experience long-term technical failures rendering them unable to provide service, registries maintaining thick Whois have all the registrant information at hand and could transfer the registrations to a different (or temporary) registrar so that registrants could continue to manage their domain names.
2. A thick Whois model reduces the degree of variability in display formats.
3. Establishing requirements such as collecting uniform sets of data, and display standards, improves consistency across all gTLDs at all levels and result in better access to Whois data for all users of Whois databases (e.g. law enforcement, Intellectual Property holders, etc).
4. The uptime of the registry with respect to Whois data has typically been found to be better (at least marginally) than the registrar.
I am not sure about the rest of you, but this re-enforces the point that this migration has been in the freezer for too long.
Point 1, that's why we have escrow obligations. The reasoning in point 1 is not sustainable for the future I am afraid. Point 2 and 3, This has been addressed by the RAA 2013 and the AWIP policy released in 2015. Point 4, I suspect with RDAP this problem will also be solved. Beside the RAA 2013 also addresses this with an SLA.
One could almost argue there are no benefits. Not sure if you guys want to circle back on this one and include this in a side note for the comment period.
Also, interesting to read but, out of scope for this IRT (I think) is the RDAP solution (page 12 of the legal review)? It could be me, but it almost looks like if there was a quick procedure and workable procedure then the technical issue would be solved also, and it would solve our impediment.
Thank you for making it this far.
Theo
theo geurts schreef op 2016-09-07 10:22 PM:
Thanks, Marika,
I'll give that one a read tomorrow. Though I think Volker is right. Seems we are operating under old marching orders, Steve already warned us that this thing has taken way too long. The draft Verisign prepared does actually highlight the current situation. And to be fair? How many people would have thought that Safe Harbor would have been invalidated? Not me for sure. But I also did not predict the brexit or Trump running for president.
In addition to this, I think we are in agreement here. It is not up to this IRT. We can only signal the GNSO that most likely we have a few impediments.
Best regards,
Theo
On 7-9-2016 16:53, Marika Konings wrote:
And it can be found here:
https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/52889541/ICANN%20Memorandum....
Best regards,
Marika
MARIKA KONINGS
Senior Policy Director & Team Leader for the GNSO, Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN)
Email: marika.konings@icann.org
_ _
_Follow the GNSO via Twitter @ICANN_GNSO_
_Find out more about the GNSO by taking our interactive courses [10 [1]] and visiting the GNSO Newcomer pages [11]._
FROM: <gnso-impl-thickwhois-rt-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of "Metalitz, Steven" <met@msk.com> DATE: Wednesday 7 September 2016 at 08:44 TO: 'Volker Greimann' <vgreimann@key-systems.net>, gtheo <gtheo@xs4all.nl> CC: "gnso-impl-thickwhois-rt@icann.org" <gnso-impl-thickwhois-rt@icann.org> SUBJECT: Re: [Gnso-impl-thickwhois-rt] [for iRT review] Draft Thick Whois Transition Policy for .COM, .NET, and .JOBS
That legal review was undertaken more than a year ago.
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FROM: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] SENT: Wednesday, September 07, 2016 10:44 AM TO: Metalitz, Steven; gtheo CC: gnso-impl-thickwhois-rt@icann.org SUBJECT: Re: [Gnso-impl-thickwhois-rt] [for iRT review] Draft Thick Whois Transition Policy for .COM, .NET, and .JOBS
Partially. As the thick whois WG clearly recommended that a legal review be undertaken with regard to the impact of any implementation on local privacy legislations, the question of available excemptions may well become relevant to such a review.
Best,
Volker
Am 07.09.2016 um 16:38 schrieb Metalitz, Steven:
Agree that this issue is outside the scope of this group.
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T: 202.355.7902 | met@msk.com
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THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THIS E-MAIL MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE PERSONAL AND CONFIDENTIAL USE OF THE DESIGNATED RECIPIENTS. THIS MESSAGE MAY BE AN ATTORNEY-CLIENT COMMUNICATION, AND AS SUCH IS PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL. IF THE READER OF THIS MESSAGE IS NOT AN INTENDED RECIPIENT, YOU ARE HEREBY NOTIFIED THAT ANY REVIEW, USE, DISSEMINATION, FORWARDING OR COPYING OF THIS MESSAGE IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED. PLEASE NOTIFY US IMMEDIATELY BY REPLY E-MAIL OR TELEPHONE, AND DELETE THE ORIGINAL MESSAGE AND ALL ATTACHMENTS FROM YOUR SYSTEM. THANK YOU.
FROM: gnso-impl-thickwhois-rt-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-impl-thickwhois-rt-bounces@icann.org] ON BEHALF OF Volker Greimann SENT: Wednesday, September 07, 2016 9:28 AM TO: gtheo CC: gnso-impl-thickwhois-rt@icann.org SUBJECT: Re: [Gnso-impl-thickwhois-rt] [for iRT review] Draft Thick Whois Transition Policy for .COM, .NET, and .JOBS
Well, I agree that we need a workable process for obtaining an excemption, but that is a discussion for another group, I guess. An Implementation Advisory Group, if you will. I hear there may soon be another one of those. ;-)
Best,
Volker
Am 07.09.2016 um 15:18 schrieb gtheo:
That might be a way forward Volker.
https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/waiver-request-process-2013-09-13-en
However, that one wasn't exactly "speedy". Took me two years to
obtain
one. The invalidation of Safe Harbor was rather sudden. Some
governments
displayed the last 12 months that things can change at record
speed
law wise.
I guess the problem boils down to this. -Sudden changes in law putting migrated Registrar businesses at
risk.
-The procedure can take much longer than the proposed timeline. -There might be Registrars that cannot migrate.
I am not sure, but I have the feeling that it is not up to the
IRT to
fix this as it is out of scope. Though Registrars who cannot migrate, we might want to mention
RDAP.
Even though that is already mentioned in the RDAP spec when it
comes
to Thin WHOIS Registries.
Theo
Volker Greimann schreef op 2016-09-07 01:24 PM:
How about adding: "Further procedures for resolving conflicts
with
local privacy laws are included in the 2013 RAA Data Retention specification"?
Am 07.09.2016 um 12:52 schrieb gtheo:
Hello all,
_1. Where a conflict exists between local privacy laws and requirements included in this Policy, ICANN's Procedure for Handling WHOIS Conflicts with Privacy Laws is available for
Registry
Operators and Registrars. _
We didn't get around this yesterday, wich is fine. Let us see
if we
can have some discussion in advance about this as I am
struggling
with this section for a few now.
The text itself is good, as in, this is what I expected after
the
discussions we had about this in the last few months.
What I am not sure off is how to deal with this in the sense of moving forward to the comment period. The procedure is not working, but is outside of this IRT to
address,
yet this IRT relies on it.
Are we going to put in a footnote in the report that says
something
like: _Outside the scope of the IRT to address, but we wish the
Registrars
and Registrants the best of luck!_
Thanks, Theo
Dennis Chang schreef op 2016-09-02 02:05 AM:
Dear Thick Whois Policy Implementation Review Team,
Attached for your review is our initial draft of the Thick
Whois
Transition Policy for .COM, .NET and .JOBS. The draft Policy includes the various elements discussed in our recent meeting on this topic.
As you review the draft, you will find bracketed text in four sections: sections 2.9, 2.10, 3.4 and 3.5. These sections are bracketed because they reference the Registry Registration Data Directory Services Consistent Labeling and Display Policy and
the
Registration Data Access Protocol gTLD Profile. As you may be aware, a Request for Reconsideration (RfR) was submitted by the
Registries
Stakeholder Group in August regarding the Registry Registration Data Directory Services Consistent Labeling and Display Policy [1
[1]]
that was published on 26 July 2016. The RfR objects to the inclusion of RDAP in the Consensus Policy. While the RfR goes through its own
process,
we thought it was important to continue progressing the implementation project with the goal of opening Public Comment in September
and
announcing the Transition Policy by 1 February 2017 per our schedule. Therefore, the text is bracketed as it may need to be revisited pending the resolution of the RfR and we wanted to directly
call
the IRT's attention to it.
We will review all contents of the document at our next IRT meeting as a team but please provide your comments in advance via email if possible.
Thank you for your support!
--
Kind Regards,
Dennis S. Chang
GDD Services & Engagement Program Director
+1 213 293 7889
Skype: dennisSchang
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