On August 18, 2015 at 15:26 vgreimann@key-systems.net (Volker Greimann) wrote:

So there is absolutely no need for whois in Europe.

(IF the domain is associated with a website?) So make WHOIS just a DNS record maintained by the domain owner however they see fit, or not. If someone finds that inadequate they can proceed with whatever they would do to obtain customer records from any company in any situation such as request the records from the source. For DNS that's a registrar or ICANN, but for a phone number for example that would be the phone company or source of the phone number -- if found in a newspaper ask the newspaper if they have more contact information for an advertiser and would they be willing to share that information. Other sources likely exist, try googling the domain name for its owner or search sources such as corporate listings or legal cases. And if that response is inadequate to their needs seek authority from a court of competent jurisdiction or similar (trade regulator, etc.) to compel disclosure from whomever one sees as a potentially productive source. I keep coming back to the question of what are the use cases for WHOIS? Not just "to find the owner of a domain", but for what purposes and how and why that should be supported? And to what level of (enforced) quality? -- -Barry Shein The World | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 800-THE-WRLD | Dial-Up: US, PR, Canada Software Tool & Die | Public Access Internet | SINCE 1989 *oo*

On August 19, 2015 at 10:27 vgreimann@key-systems.net (Volker Greimann) wrote:

Hi Barry,

this should be seen in the context of the demands for differentiation based upon use of the website, i.e. transactional vs. non-transactional. Whois has no additional benefit for domains used for websites where the ownership information has to be displayed anyway. Hence privacy is more than appropriate for such domains.

Yes but the set of domains in WHOIS is a super-set of the set of domains which reach websites, a much larger super-set. The set of domains with active DNS are somewhere in between the entire WHOIS and websites with contact info in coverage but probably a lot closer to WHOIS since registries tend to default DNS servers on purchase even if only generic. These could be measured fairly easily. But for example domains which are only used for email would be in the DNS but have no website associated. Very common use of domains. And those which reach a website within a jurisdictional domain (in the legal sense) which requires contact information such as you describe for Germany -- less those not in compliance perhaps due to local lax enforcement (not particularly Germany) -- is even smaller, probably much smaller. Also there's the issue of WHOIS and language. Required contact information on a website would presumably be in the owner or marketing target's local language and character set. I don't know or don't remember what the proposed requirements vis a vis language and character set is for (a new) WHOIS. I suppose I could go read the proposal again. Is that important? There are other localization issues such as how postal addresses are formatted or even what constitutes a satisfactory address for website contact information by local law vs WHOIS (as proposed.) Well, we all know this. But in terms of the website contact info is it satisfactory to the purpose? Are you for example ok with contact info on a website only in Tagalu or Xhosa? As I said earlier it would be more productive to work forward from use cases rather than various individuals' abstract notion of "contact information". For example is the goal to have enough information available to initiate legal service on a domain owner? Or to market to a domain owner? Or to just send them a Valentine's day card (N.B. tomorrow, 8/20, is Chinese Valentine's day)? I know, all of that...easy hand-wave. This is why I take the more deconstructed view to just ask IETF to add a new WHOIS RR and let owners (optionally) put their info into their DNS zones as a public-facing database perhaps with some suggestions on format, language, etc. And that reduces the entire problem to what is required of registries at point of sale and update and by implication ICANN, plus access issues.

Am 18.08.2015 um 19:50 schrieb Barry Shein:

...

On August 18, 2015 at 15:26 vgreimann@key-systems.net (Volker Greimann) wrote:

...

So there is absolutely no need for whois in Europe.

(IF the domain is associated with a website?)

So make WHOIS just a DNS record maintained by the domain owner however they see fit, or not.

If someone finds that inadequate they can proceed with whatever they would do to obtain customer records from any company in any situation such as request the records from the source.

For DNS that's a registrar or ICANN, but for a phone number for example that would be the phone company or source of the phone number -- if found in a newspaper ask the newspaper if they have more contact information for an advertiser and would they be willing to share that information.

Other sources likely exist, try googling the domain name for its owner or search sources such as corporate listings or legal cases.

And if that response is inadequate to their needs seek authority from a court of competent jurisdiction or similar (trade regulator, etc.) to compel disclosure from whomever one sees as a potentially productive source.

I keep coming back to the question of what are the use cases for WHOIS?

Not just "to find the owner of a domain", but for what purposes and how and why that should be supported? And to what level of (enforced) quality?

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Kiran If you read the entire document and the “leaflet” linked to they only talk about websites and pages on websites. There’s also an advisory that they put out some time back about email communications. There is nothing anywhere that refers to whois in any shape or form. If all the contact details, company number etc., are on the website (and probably in the emails) then I doubt anyone really cares about what may or may not be in the public whois records. Bear in mind also that the .ie ccTLD public whois contains less detail than that of a gTLD: domain: blacknight.ie descr: Blacknight Internet Solutions Limited descr: Body Corporate (Ltd,PLC,Company) descr: Corporate Name admin-c: AAE553-IEDR tech-c: AAM456-IEDR registration: 21-August-2003 renewal: 21-August-2016 holder-type: Billable wipo-status: N ren-status: Active in-zone: 1 nserver: ns.blacknightsolutions.com nserver: ns2.blacknightsolutions.com source: IEDR person: Blacknight.com Hostmaster nic-hdl: AAE553-IEDR source: IEDR person: Blacknight.ie Hostmaster nic-hdl: AAM456-IEDR source: IEDR If more detail, such as physical address, etc., were required under Irish law I’m pretty sure the .ie ccTLD would include in their whois output. It’s also worth noting that the whois for .ie in common with most other ccTLDs rate limits queries. Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains http://www.blacknight.host/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.blacknight.press - get our latest news & media coverage http://www.technology.ie Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Social: http://mneylon.social Random Stuff: http://michele.irish ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845 On 18/08/2015 14:55, "Kiran Malancharuvil" <Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com> wrote:

Hi Michele,

I'm missing the part of the law that expressly states that this doesn't apply to Whois? (implicit exclusions of the laws applicability would work too) Could you send that? Or maybe it's a case?

Kiran Malancharuvil Policy Counselor MarkMonitor 415-419-9138 (m)

Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.

...

On Aug 18, 2015, at 5:25 AM, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com> wrote:

One of the arguments some people put forward against privacy / proxy is one of “transparency”

Under Irish law limited companies (not businesses / sole traders) have disclosure obligations on their website(s) These do NOT apply to whois

“Every limited liability company which has a website is also required to display either on its homepage or to be identified on its homepage, a readily accessible webpage on which the following appear:

the name and legal form of the company the place of registration of the company and the number with which it is registered the address of the registered office of the company in the case of a company exempt from the obligation to use the company type (Companies Limited by Guarantee/Designated Activity Companies) as part of its name, the fact that it is such a company. in the case of a company which is being wound up, the fact that it is being wound up if the share capital of a company is mentioned on the website, the reference must be to the paid-up share capital"

And https://www.cro.ie/Registration/Company/Incidental-Obligations/Letterheads

So you will find Irish companies that are using proxy / privacy on the whois but who publish all their contact details on their website(s)

You’ll also notice that many of the European registrars (myself included) have our company details in our email signatures - whereas most Non-EU based companies don’t ….

Regards

Michele

-- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains http://www.blacknight.host/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.blacknight.press - get our latest news & media coverage http://www.technology.ie Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Social: http://mneylon.social Random Stuff: http://michele.irish ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845

_______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg

Kiran If someone has an issue with the activities of an Irish company they can lodge a complaint here: http://www.odce.ie/ Or http://www.ccpc.ie/ Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains http://www.blacknight.host/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.blacknight.press - get our latest news & media coverage http://www.technology.ie Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Social: http://mneylon.social Random Stuff: http://michele.irish ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845 On 18/08/2015 15:26, "Kiran Malancharuvil" <Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com> wrote:

Thanks Michele,

I did read the entire document as well as the "leaflet" linked. Thanks again for providing.

It hasn't been my experience that the absence of a direct reference to a parallel or complimentary issue in a law means that there is no law or legal standard governing or guiding that parallel or complimentary issue.

Nor would I draw the somewhat surprising conclusion that Volker makes that requiring disclosure on a website makes Whois unnecessary.

Question: who enforces this provision? How do consumers or consumer protection companies submit requests where that information is missing or incorrect?

K

Kiran Malancharuvil Policy Counselor MarkMonitor 415-419-9138 (m)

Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.

...

On Aug 18, 2015, at 7:09 AM, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com> wrote:

Kiran

If you read the entire document and the “leaflet” linked to they only talk about websites and pages on websites. There’s also an advisory that they put out some time back about email communications.

There is nothing anywhere that refers to whois in any shape or form.

If all the contact details, company number etc., are on the website (and probably in the emails) then I doubt anyone really cares about what may or may not be in the public whois records.

Bear in mind also that the .ie ccTLD public whois contains less detail than that of a gTLD: domain: blacknight.ie descr: Blacknight Internet Solutions Limited descr: Body Corporate (Ltd,PLC,Company) descr: Corporate Name admin-c: AAE553-IEDR tech-c: AAM456-IEDR registration: 21-August-2003 renewal: 21-August-2016 holder-type: Billable wipo-status: N ren-status: Active in-zone: 1 nserver: ns.blacknightsolutions.com nserver: ns2.blacknightsolutions.com source: IEDR person: Blacknight.com Hostmaster nic-hdl: AAE553-IEDR source: IEDR person: Blacknight.ie Hostmaster nic-hdl: AAM456-IEDR source: IEDR

If more detail, such as physical address, etc., were required under Irish law I’m pretty sure the .ie ccTLD would include in their whois output.

It’s also worth noting that the whois for .ie in common with most other ccTLDs rate limits queries.

Regards

Michele

-- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains http://www.blacknight.host/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.blacknight.press - get our latest news & media coverage http://www.technology.ie Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Social: http://mneylon.social Random Stuff: http://michele.irish ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845

...

On 18/08/2015 14:55, "Kiran Malancharuvil" <Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com> wrote:

Hi Michele,

I'm missing the part of the law that expressly states that this doesn't apply to Whois? (implicit exclusions of the laws applicability would work too) Could you send that? Or maybe it's a case?

Kiran Malancharuvil Policy Counselor MarkMonitor 415-419-9138 (m)

Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.

...

On Aug 18, 2015, at 5:25 AM, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com> wrote:

One of the arguments some people put forward against privacy / proxy is one of “transparency”

Under Irish law limited companies (not businesses / sole traders) have disclosure obligations on their website(s) These do NOT apply to whois

“Every limited liability company which has a website is also required to display either on its homepage or to be identified on its homepage, a readily accessible webpage on which the following appear:

the name and legal form of the company the place of registration of the company and the number with which it is registered the address of the registered office of the company in the case of a company exempt from the obligation to use the company type (Companies Limited by Guarantee/Designated Activity Companies) as part of its name, the fact that it is such a company. in the case of a company which is being wound up, the fact that it is being wound up if the share capital of a company is mentioned on the website, the reference must be to the paid-up share capital"

And https://www.cro.ie/Registration/Company/Incidental-Obligations/Letterheads

So you will find Irish companies that are using proxy / privacy on the whois but who publish all their contact details on their website(s)

You’ll also notice that many of the European registrars (myself included) have our company details in our email signatures - whereas most Non-EU based companies don’t ….

Regards

Michele

-- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains http://www.blacknight.host/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.blacknight.press - get our latest news & media coverage http://www.technology.ie Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Social: http://mneylon.social Random Stuff: http://michele.irish ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845

_______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg

Hi Kiran, in Germany (and mostly throughout the EU based on harmonized law), there are information and disclosure requirements for telemedia services. The information duties are different depending on the service or information offered, but they are conclusive, i.e. if you follow what is explicitly requested by law, then you are compliant. There is no such requirement for whois. I hope this helps. Best, Thomas --- rickert.net

Am 18.08.2015 um 16:26 schrieb Kiran Malancharuvil <Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com>:

Thanks Michele,

I did read the entire document as well as the "leaflet" linked. Thanks again for providing.

It hasn't been my experience that the absence of a direct reference to a parallel or complimentary issue in a law means that there is no law or legal standard governing or guiding that parallel or complimentary issue.

Nor would I draw the somewhat surprising conclusion that Volker makes that requiring disclosure on a website makes Whois unnecessary.

Question: who enforces this provision? How do consumers or consumer protection companies submit requests where that information is missing or incorrect?

K

Kiran Malancharuvil Policy Counselor MarkMonitor 415-419-9138 (m)

Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.

...

On Aug 18, 2015, at 7:09 AM, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com> wrote:

Kiran

If you read the entire document and the “leaflet” linked to they only talk about websites and pages on websites. There’s also an advisory that they put out some time back about email communications.

There is nothing anywhere that refers to whois in any shape or form.

If all the contact details, company number etc., are on the website (and probably in the emails) then I doubt anyone really cares about what may or may not be in the public whois records.

Bear in mind also that the .ie ccTLD public whois contains less detail than that of a gTLD: domain: blacknight.ie descr: Blacknight Internet Solutions Limited descr: Body Corporate (Ltd,PLC,Company) descr: Corporate Name admin-c: AAE553-IEDR tech-c: AAM456-IEDR registration: 21-August-2003 renewal: 21-August-2016 holder-type: Billable wipo-status: N ren-status: Active in-zone: 1 nserver: ns.blacknightsolutions.com nserver: ns2.blacknightsolutions.com source: IEDR person: Blacknight.com Hostmaster nic-hdl: AAE553-IEDR source: IEDR person: Blacknight.ie Hostmaster nic-hdl: AAM456-IEDR source: IEDR

If more detail, such as physical address, etc., were required under Irish law I’m pretty sure the .ie ccTLD would include in their whois output.

It’s also worth noting that the whois for .ie in common with most other ccTLDs rate limits queries.

Regards

Michele

-- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains http://www.blacknight.host/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.blacknight.press - get our latest news & media coverage http://www.technology.ie Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Social: http://mneylon.social Random Stuff: http://michele.irish ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845

...

On 18/08/2015 14:55, "Kiran Malancharuvil" <Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com> wrote:

Hi Michele,

I'm missing the part of the law that expressly states that this doesn't apply to Whois? (implicit exclusions of the laws applicability would work too) Could you send that? Or maybe it's a case?

Kiran Malancharuvil Policy Counselor MarkMonitor 415-419-9138 (m)

Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.

...

On Aug 18, 2015, at 5:25 AM, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com> wrote:

One of the arguments some people put forward against privacy / proxy is one of “transparency”

Under Irish law limited companies (not businesses / sole traders) have disclosure obligations on their website(s) These do NOT apply to whois

“Every limited liability company which has a website is also required to display either on its homepage or to be identified on its homepage, a readily accessible webpage on which the following appear:

the name and legal form of the company the place of registration of the company and the number with which it is registered the address of the registered office of the company in the case of a company exempt from the obligation to use the company type (Companies Limited by Guarantee/Designated Activity Companies) as part of its name, the fact that it is such a company. in the case of a company which is being wound up, the fact that it is being wound up if the share capital of a company is mentioned on the website, the reference must be to the paid-up share capital"

And https://www.cro.ie/Registration/Company/Incidental-Obligations/Letterheads

So you will find Irish companies that are using proxy / privacy on the whois but who publish all their contact details on their website(s)

You’ll also notice that many of the European registrars (myself included) have our company details in our email signatures - whereas most Non-EU based companies don’t ….

Regards

Michele

-- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains http://www.blacknight.host/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.blacknight.press - get our latest news & media coverage http://www.technology.ie Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Social: http://mneylon.social Random Stuff: http://michele.irish ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845

_______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg

---

Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg

I agree with this. I also agree with the reverse: That simply because one form of transparency (website operator) is required by law, it does not necessarily extend to other platforms (WHOIS, business directories, etc.) Thanks‹ J. On 8/18/15, 10:39 , "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org on behalf of Kiran Malancharuvil" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org on behalf of Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com> wrote:

It doesn't really. How does an affirmative obligation to disclose one thing divest of any discussion about transparency in another regard?

Kiran Malancharuvil Policy Counselor MarkMonitor 415-419-9138 (m)

Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.

On Aug 18, 2015, at 8:32 AM, Thomas Rickert <rickert@anwaelte.de<mailto:rickert@anwaelte.de>> wrote:

Hi Kiran, in Germany (and mostly throughout the EU based on harmonized law), there are information and disclosure requirements for telemedia services. The information duties are different depending on the service or information offered, but they are conclusive, i.e. if you follow what is explicitly requested by law, then you are compliant. There is no such requirement for whois.

I hope this helps.

Best, Thomas --- rickert.net<http://rickert.net>

Am 18.08.2015 um 16:26 schrieb Kiran Malancharuvil <Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com<mailto:Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonito r.com>>:

Thanks Michele,

I did read the entire document as well as the "leaflet" linked. Thanks again for providing.

It hasn't been my experience that the absence of a direct reference to a parallel or complimentary issue in a law means that there is no law or legal standard governing or guiding that parallel or complimentary issue.

Nor would I draw the somewhat surprising conclusion that Volker makes that requiring disclosure on a website makes Whois unnecessary.

Question: who enforces this provision? How do consumers or consumer protection companies submit requests where that information is missing or incorrect?

K

Kiran Malancharuvil Policy Counselor MarkMonitor 415-419-9138 (m)

Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.

On Aug 18, 2015, at 7:09 AM, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com<mailto:michele@blacknight.com>> wrote:

Kiran

If you read the entire document and the ³leaflet² linked to they only talk about websites and pages on websites. There¹s also an advisory that they put out some time back about email communications.

There is nothing anywhere that refers to whois in any shape or form.

If all the contact details, company number etc., are on the website (and probably in the emails) then I doubt anyone really cares about what may or may not be in the public whois records.

Bear in mind also that the .ie ccTLD public whois contains less detail than that of a gTLD: domain: blacknight.ie<http://blacknight.ie> descr: Blacknight Internet Solutions Limited descr: Body Corporate (Ltd,PLC,Company) descr: Corporate Name admin-c: AAE553-IEDR tech-c: AAM456-IEDR registration: 21-August-2003 renewal: 21-August-2016 holder-type: Billable wipo-status: N ren-status: Active in-zone: 1 nserver: ns.blacknightsolutions.com<http://ns.blacknightsolutions.com> nserver: ns2.blacknightsolutions.com<http://ns2.blacknightsolutions.com> source: IEDR person: Blacknight.com<http://Blacknight.com> Hostmaster nic-hdl: AAE553-IEDR source: IEDR person: Blacknight.ie<http://Blacknight.ie> Hostmaster nic-hdl: AAM456-IEDR source: IEDR

If more detail, such as physical address, etc., were required under Irish law I¹m pretty sure the .ie ccTLD would include in their whois output.

It¹s also worth noting that the whois for .ie in common with most other ccTLDs rate limits queries.

Regards

Michele

-- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains http://www.blacknight.host/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.blacknight.press - get our latest news & media coverage http://www.technology.ie Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Social: http://mneylon.social Random Stuff: http://michele.irish ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845

On 18/08/2015 14:55, "Kiran Malancharuvil" <Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com<mailto:Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonito r.com>> wrote:

Hi Michele,

I'm missing the part of the law that expressly states that this doesn't apply to Whois? (implicit exclusions of the laws applicability would work too) Could you send that? Or maybe it's a case?

Kiran Malancharuvil Policy Counselor MarkMonitor 415-419-9138 (m)

Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.

On Aug 18, 2015, at 5:25 AM, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com<mailto:michele@blacknight.com>> wrote:

One of the arguments some people put forward against privacy / proxy is one of ³transparency²

Under Irish law limited companies (not businesses / sole traders) have disclosure obligations on their website(s) These do NOT apply to whois

³Every limited liability company which has a website is also required to display either on its homepage or to be identified on its homepage, a readily accessible webpage on which the following appear:

the name and legal form of the company the place of registration of the company and the number with which it is registered the address of the registered office of the company in the case of a company exempt from the obligation to use the company type (Companies Limited by Guarantee/Designated Activity Companies) as part of its name, the fact that it is such a company. in the case of a company which is being wound up, the fact that it is being wound up if the share capital of a company is mentioned on the website, the reference must be to the paid-up share capital"

And https://www.cro.ie/Registration/Company/Incidental-Obligations/Letterheads

So you will find Irish companies that are using proxy / privacy on the whois but who publish all their contact details on their website(s)

You¹ll also notice that many of the European registrars (myself included) have our company details in our email signatures - whereas most Non-EU based companies don¹t Š.

Regards

Michele

-- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains http://www.blacknight.host/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.blacknight.press - get our latest news & media coverage http://www.technology.ie Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Social: http://mneylon.social Random Stuff: http://michele.irish ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845

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Indeed and as it is content that is problematic for most use cases, the information should be where the content is, not where the address label is registered. Volker Am 18.08.2015 um 18:08 schrieb Kiran Malancharuvil:

Agreed. So the question remains on the table.

Thanks James.

Kiran

Kiran Malancharuvil Policy Counselor MarkMonitor 415-419-9138 (m)

Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.

...

On Aug 18, 2015, at 9:07 AM, James M. Bladel <jbladel@godaddy.com> wrote:

I agree with this. I also agree with the reverse: That simply because one form of transparency (website operator) is required by law, it does not necessarily extend to other platforms (WHOIS, business directories, etc.)

Thanks‹

J.

On 8/18/15, 10:39 , "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org on behalf of Kiran Malancharuvil" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org on behalf of Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com> wrote:

...

It doesn't really. How does an affirmative obligation to disclose one thing divest of any discussion about transparency in another regard?

Kiran Malancharuvil Policy Counselor MarkMonitor 415-419-9138 (m)

Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.

On Aug 18, 2015, at 8:32 AM, Thomas Rickert <rickert@anwaelte.de<mailto:rickert@anwaelte.de>> wrote:

Hi Kiran, in Germany (and mostly throughout the EU based on harmonized law), there are information and disclosure requirements for telemedia services. The information duties are different depending on the service or information offered, but they are conclusive, i.e. if you follow what is explicitly requested by law, then you are compliant. There is no such requirement for whois.

I hope this helps.

Best, Thomas --- rickert.net<http://rickert.net>

Am 18.08.2015 um 16:26 schrieb Kiran Malancharuvil <Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com<mailto:Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonito r.com>>:

Thanks Michele,

I did read the entire document as well as the "leaflet" linked. Thanks again for providing.

It hasn't been my experience that the absence of a direct reference to a parallel or complimentary issue in a law means that there is no law or legal standard governing or guiding that parallel or complimentary issue.

Nor would I draw the somewhat surprising conclusion that Volker makes that requiring disclosure on a website makes Whois unnecessary.

Question: who enforces this provision? How do consumers or consumer protection companies submit requests where that information is missing or incorrect?

K

Kiran Malancharuvil Policy Counselor MarkMonitor 415-419-9138 (m)

Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.

On Aug 18, 2015, at 7:09 AM, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com<mailto:michele@blacknight.com>> wrote:

Kiran

If you read the entire document and the ³leaflet² linked to they only talk about websites and pages on websites. There¹s also an advisory that they put out some time back about email communications.

There is nothing anywhere that refers to whois in any shape or form.

If all the contact details, company number etc., are on the website (and probably in the emails) then I doubt anyone really cares about what may or may not be in the public whois records.

Bear in mind also that the .ie ccTLD public whois contains less detail than that of a gTLD: domain: blacknight.ie<http://blacknight.ie> descr: Blacknight Internet Solutions Limited descr: Body Corporate (Ltd,PLC,Company) descr: Corporate Name admin-c: AAE553-IEDR tech-c: AAM456-IEDR registration: 21-August-2003 renewal: 21-August-2016 holder-type: Billable wipo-status: N ren-status: Active in-zone: 1 nserver: ns.blacknightsolutions.com<http://ns.blacknightsolutions.com> nserver: ns2.blacknightsolutions.com<http://ns2.blacknightsolutions.com> source: IEDR person: Blacknight.com<http://Blacknight.com> Hostmaster nic-hdl: AAE553-IEDR source: IEDR person: Blacknight.ie<http://Blacknight.ie> Hostmaster nic-hdl: AAM456-IEDR source: IEDR

If more detail, such as physical address, etc., were required under Irish law I¹m pretty sure the .ie ccTLD would include in their whois output.

It¹s also worth noting that the whois for .ie in common with most other ccTLDs rate limits queries.

Regards

Michele

-- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains http://www.blacknight.host/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.blacknight.press - get our latest news & media coverage http://www.technology.ie Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Social: http://mneylon.social Random Stuff: http://michele.irish ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845

On 18/08/2015 14:55, "Kiran Malancharuvil" <Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com<mailto:Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonito r.com>> wrote:

Hi Michele,

I'm missing the part of the law that expressly states that this doesn't apply to Whois? (implicit exclusions of the laws applicability would work too) Could you send that? Or maybe it's a case?

Kiran Malancharuvil Policy Counselor MarkMonitor 415-419-9138 (m)

Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.

On Aug 18, 2015, at 5:25 AM, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com<mailto:michele@blacknight.com>> wrote:

One of the arguments some people put forward against privacy / proxy is one of ³transparency²

Under Irish law limited companies (not businesses / sole traders) have disclosure obligations on their website(s) These do NOT apply to whois

³Every limited liability company which has a website is also required to display either on its homepage or to be identified on its homepage, a readily accessible webpage on which the following appear:

the name and legal form of the company the place of registration of the company and the number with which it is registered the address of the registered office of the company in the case of a company exempt from the obligation to use the company type (Companies Limited by Guarantee/Designated Activity Companies) as part of its name, the fact that it is such a company. in the case of a company which is being wound up, the fact that it is being wound up if the share capital of a company is mentioned on the website, the reference must be to the paid-up share capital"

And https://www.cro.ie/Registration/Company/Incidental-Obligations/Letterheads

So you will find Irish companies that are using proxy / privacy on the whois but who publish all their contact details on their website(s)

You¹ll also notice that many of the European registrars (myself included) have our company details in our email signatures - whereas most Non-EU based companies don¹t Š.

Regards

Michele

-- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains http://www.blacknight.host/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.blacknight.press - get our latest news & media coverage http://www.technology.ie Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Social: http://mneylon.social Random Stuff: http://michele.irish ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845

_______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg

---

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-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.

Hi Kiran, neither am I suggesting that what I stated is true for all jurisdictions, nor do I want to cause trouble :-). All I can say that we have exhaustive information and disclosure duties for different services offered. For selling products they are different than for regulated professions, just to give an example. The duties are depending on the service, i.e. they need to be fulfilled on a facebook, twitter profile or even a website, but if you fulfill them, you are compliant. There is no requirement for disclosure in the whois. In fact, the registrant and the website operator can be different entities or different website operators run their offerings under different sub-domains. Our law is imposing requirements on e.g. the website, not the whois. There is no such transparency requirement, which you are obviously missing. Thomas --- rickert.net

Am 18.08.2015 um 17:39 schrieb Kiran Malancharuvil <Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com>:

It doesn't really. How does an affirmative obligation to disclose one thing divest of any discussion about transparency in another regard?

Kiran Malancharuvil Policy Counselor MarkMonitor 415-419-9138 (m)

Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.

On Aug 18, 2015, at 8:32 AM, Thomas Rickert <rickert@anwaelte.de<mailto:rickert@anwaelte.de>> wrote:

Hi Kiran, in Germany (and mostly throughout the EU based on harmonized law), there are information and disclosure requirements for telemedia services. The information duties are different depending on the service or information offered, but they are conclusive, i.e. if you follow what is explicitly requested by law, then you are compliant. There is no such requirement for whois.

I hope this helps.

Best, Thomas --- rickert.net<http://rickert.net>

Am 18.08.2015 um 16:26 schrieb Kiran Malancharuvil <Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com<mailto:Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com>>:

Thanks Michele,

I did read the entire document as well as the "leaflet" linked. Thanks again for providing.

It hasn't been my experience that the absence of a direct reference to a parallel or complimentary issue in a law means that there is no law or legal standard governing or guiding that parallel or complimentary issue.

Nor would I draw the somewhat surprising conclusion that Volker makes that requiring disclosure on a website makes Whois unnecessary.

Question: who enforces this provision? How do consumers or consumer protection companies submit requests where that information is missing or incorrect?

K

Kiran Malancharuvil Policy Counselor MarkMonitor 415-419-9138 (m)

Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.

On Aug 18, 2015, at 7:09 AM, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com<mailto:michele@blacknight.com>> wrote:

Kiran

If you read the entire document and the “leaflet” linked to they only talk about websites and pages on websites. There’s also an advisory that they put out some time back about email communications.

There is nothing anywhere that refers to whois in any shape or form.

If all the contact details, company number etc., are on the website (and probably in the emails) then I doubt anyone really cares about what may or may not be in the public whois records.

Bear in mind also that the .ie ccTLD public whois contains less detail than that of a gTLD: domain: blacknight.ie<http://blacknight.ie> descr: Blacknight Internet Solutions Limited descr: Body Corporate (Ltd,PLC,Company) descr: Corporate Name admin-c: AAE553-IEDR tech-c: AAM456-IEDR registration: 21-August-2003 renewal: 21-August-2016 holder-type: Billable wipo-status: N ren-status: Active in-zone: 1 nserver: ns.blacknightsolutions.com<http://ns.blacknightsolutions.com> nserver: ns2.blacknightsolutions.com<http://ns2.blacknightsolutions.com> source: IEDR person: Blacknight.com<http://Blacknight.com> Hostmaster nic-hdl: AAE553-IEDR source: IEDR person: Blacknight.ie<http://Blacknight.ie> Hostmaster nic-hdl: AAM456-IEDR source: IEDR

If more detail, such as physical address, etc., were required under Irish law I’m pretty sure the .ie ccTLD would include in their whois output.

It’s also worth noting that the whois for .ie in common with most other ccTLDs rate limits queries.

Regards

Michele

-- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains http://www.blacknight.host/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.blacknight.press - get our latest news & media coverage http://www.technology.ie Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Social: http://mneylon.social Random Stuff: http://michele.irish ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845

On 18/08/2015 14:55, "Kiran Malancharuvil" <Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com<mailto:Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com>> wrote:

Hi Michele,

I'm missing the part of the law that expressly states that this doesn't apply to Whois? (implicit exclusions of the laws applicability would work too) Could you send that? Or maybe it's a case?

Kiran Malancharuvil Policy Counselor MarkMonitor 415-419-9138 (m)

Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.

On Aug 18, 2015, at 5:25 AM, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com<mailto:michele@blacknight.com>> wrote:

One of the arguments some people put forward against privacy / proxy is one of “transparency”

Under Irish law limited companies (not businesses / sole traders) have disclosure obligations on their website(s) These do NOT apply to whois

“Every limited liability company which has a website is also required to display either on its homepage or to be identified on its homepage, a readily accessible webpage on which the following appear:

the name and legal form of the company the place of registration of the company and the number with which it is registered the address of the registered office of the company in the case of a company exempt from the obligation to use the company type (Companies Limited by Guarantee/Designated Activity Companies) as part of its name, the fact that it is such a company. in the case of a company which is being wound up, the fact that it is being wound up if the share capital of a company is mentioned on the website, the reference must be to the paid-up share capital"

And https://www.cro.ie/Registration/Company/Incidental-Obligations/Letterheads

So you will find Irish companies that are using proxy / privacy on the whois but who publish all their contact details on their website(s)

You’ll also notice that many of the European registrars (myself included) have our company details in our email signatures - whereas most Non-EU based companies don’t ….

Regards

Michele

-- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains http://www.blacknight.host/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.blacknight.press - get our latest news & media coverage http://www.technology.ie Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Social: http://mneylon.social Random Stuff: http://michele.irish ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845

_______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg