Re: [lac-discuss-en] Rule 11.2
Bartlett is correct. ROK -----Original Message----- From: lac-discuss-en-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:lac-discuss-en-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] On Behalf Of Bartlett Morgan Sent: Wednesday, 29 July 2015 10:31 To: Humberto Carrasco Cc: lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [lac-discuss-en] Rule 11.2 Hi Humberto, The controlling phrase in the rule is "in no case less than two weeks". Therefore even in the case of exceptions, that requirement would have to be complied with. I don't think your interpretation is faithful to the plain literal meaning of the rule. $.02 -- Bartlett Morgan Sent from my Cyanogen phone On Jul 29, 2015 9:33 AM, Humberto Carrasco <hcarrascob@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Dev,
There is no misunderstanding.
The rule says "As a general rule", in spanish "Como regla General". This wording means, that there could be some exceptions. We used this exception.
I explained the reasons before.
Regards
El 29/07/2015 a las 02:06 p.m., Dev Anand Teelucksingh escribió:
I'll repost Rule 11.2 since there seems to be a misunderstanding.
11.2 As a general rule, no draft resolution or amendment shall be discussed or put to the vote unless it has been circulated sufficiently in advance, but in no case less than two weeks, to all participants in the working languages of the Assembly.
11.2 Como regla general. sólo se tratarán y se someterán a votación las resoluciones o enmiendas que se hayan distribuido con al menos dos semanas de anticipación, a todos los participantes de la Asamblea, en todos los idiomas con los que ésta trabaje.
Dev Anand
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I disagree. Furthermore, if you read the Spanish version, the wording confirms our interpretation. Regards El 29/07/2015 a las 07:23 p.m., Roosevelt King escribió:
Bartlett is correct.
ROK
-----Original Message----- From: lac-discuss-en-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:lac-discuss-en-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] On Behalf Of Bartlett Morgan Sent: Wednesday, 29 July 2015 10:31 To: Humberto Carrasco Cc: lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [lac-discuss-en] Rule 11.2
Hi Humberto, The controlling phrase in the rule is "in no case less than two weeks". Therefore even in the case of exceptions, that requirement would have to be complied with.
I don't think your interpretation is faithful to the plain literal meaning of the rule.
$.02
-- Bartlett Morgan
Sent from my Cyanogen phone
On Jul 29, 2015 9:33 AM, Humberto Carrasco <hcarrascob@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Dev,
There is no misunderstanding.
The rule says "As a general rule", in spanish "Como regla General". This wording means, that there could be some exceptions. We used this exception.
I explained the reasons before.
Regards
El 29/07/2015 a las 02:06 p.m., Dev Anand Teelucksingh escribió:
I'll repost Rule 11.2 since there seems to be a misunderstanding.
11.2 As a general rule, no draft resolution or amendment shall be discussed or put to the vote unless it has been circulated sufficiently in advance, but in no case less than two weeks, to all participants in the working languages of the Assembly.
11.2 Como regla general. sólo se tratarán y se someterán a votación las resoluciones o enmiendas que se hayan distribuido con al menos dos semanas de anticipación, a todos los participantes de la Asamblea, en todos los idiomas con los que ésta trabaje.
Dev Anand
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lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org
https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-en
lac-discuss-en mailing list lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-en
"In no case" means "under any circumstances", even if you say there are exceptions, the exceptions would be one case/circumstance... the rule says, "in no case". I am not sure what is so difficult about that to understand or is it a case of unwillingness to understand? The English version does not confirm your interpretation and hence there is no way that the Spanish version could. Using language as a Red Herring? Is not the official language English? The Spanish translators need to get it right? You questioning the translation? That does not make you right??? ROK -----Original Message----- From: Humberto Carrasco [mailto:hcarrascob@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, 29 July 2015 14:49 To: rok@bango.org.bb; 'Bartlett Morgan' Cc: lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [lac-discuss-en] Rule 11.2 I disagree. Furthermore, if you read the Spanish version, the wording confirms our interpretation. Regards El 29/07/2015 a las 07:23 p.m., Roosevelt King escribió:
Bartlett is correct.
ROK
-----Original Message----- From: lac-discuss-en-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:lac-discuss-en-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] On Behalf Of Bartlett Morgan Sent: Wednesday, 29 July 2015 10:31 To: Humberto Carrasco Cc: lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [lac-discuss-en] Rule 11.2
Hi Humberto, The controlling phrase in the rule is "in no case less than two weeks". Therefore even in the case of exceptions, that requirement would have to be complied with.
I don't think your interpretation is faithful to the plain literal meaning of the rule.
$.02
-- Bartlett Morgan
Sent from my Cyanogen phone
On Jul 29, 2015 9:33 AM, Humberto Carrasco <hcarrascob@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Dev,
There is no misunderstanding.
The rule says "As a general rule", in spanish "Como regla General". This wording means, that there could be some exceptions. We used this exception.
I explained the reasons before.
Regards
El 29/07/2015 a las 02:06 p.m., Dev Anand Teelucksingh escribió:
I'll repost Rule 11.2 since there seems to be a misunderstanding.
11.2 As a general rule, no draft resolution or amendment shall be discussed or put to the vote unless it has been circulated sufficiently in advance, but in no case less than two weeks, to all participants in the working languages of the Assembly.
11.2 Como regla general. sólo se tratarán y se someterán a votación las resoluciones o enmiendas que se hayan distribuido con al menos dos semanas de anticipación, a todos los participantes de la Asamblea, en todos los idiomas con los que ésta trabaje.
Dev Anand
_______________________________________________
lac-discuss-en mailing list
lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org
https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-en
lac-discuss-en mailing list lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-en
Dear Roosvelt, Why do you think the official language is English in LACRALO? Regards El 29/07/2015 a las 08:27 p.m., Roosevelt King escribió:
"In no case" means "under any circumstances", even if you say there are exceptions, the exceptions would be one case/circumstance... the rule says, "in no case". I am not sure what is so difficult about that to understand or is it a case of unwillingness to understand? The English version does not confirm your interpretation and hence there is no way that the Spanish version could. Using language as a Red Herring? Is not the official language English? The Spanish translators need to get it right? You questioning the translation? That does not make you right???
ROK
-----Original Message----- From: Humberto Carrasco [mailto:hcarrascob@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, 29 July 2015 14:49 To: rok@bango.org.bb; 'Bartlett Morgan' Cc: lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [lac-discuss-en] Rule 11.2
I disagree.
Furthermore, if you read the Spanish version, the wording confirms our interpretation.
Regards
El 29/07/2015 a las 07:23 p.m., Roosevelt King escribió:
Bartlett is correct.
ROK
-----Original Message----- From: lac-discuss-en-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:lac-discuss-en-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] On Behalf Of Bartlett Morgan Sent: Wednesday, 29 July 2015 10:31 To: Humberto Carrasco Cc: lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [lac-discuss-en] Rule 11.2
Hi Humberto, The controlling phrase in the rule is "in no case less than two weeks". Therefore even in the case of exceptions, that requirement would have to be complied with.
I don't think your interpretation is faithful to the plain literal meaning of the rule.
$.02
-- Bartlett Morgan
Sent from my Cyanogen phone
On Jul 29, 2015 9:33 AM, Humberto Carrasco <hcarrascob@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Dev,
There is no misunderstanding.
The rule says "As a general rule", in spanish "Como regla General". This wording means, that there could be some exceptions. We used this exception.
I explained the reasons before.
Regards
El 29/07/2015 a las 02:06 p.m., Dev Anand Teelucksingh escribió:
I'll repost Rule 11.2 since there seems to be a misunderstanding.
11.2 As a general rule, no draft resolution or amendment shall be discussed or put to the vote unless it has been circulated sufficiently in advance, but in no case less than two weeks, to all participants in the working languages of the Assembly.
11.2 Como regla general. sólo se tratarán y se someterán a votación las resoluciones o enmiendas que se hayan distribuido con al menos dos semanas de anticipación, a todos los participantes de la Asamblea, en todos los idiomas con los que ésta trabaje.
Dev Anand
_______________________________________________
lac-discuss-en mailing list
lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org
https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-en
lac-discuss-en mailing list lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-en
My! My! The official language of ICANN is English. Is it different in the regions? Of course if you deem the official language to be Spanish in LACRALO, Long live the Emperor. ROK -----Original Message----- From: lac-discuss-en-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:lac-discuss-en-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] On Behalf Of Humberto Carrasco Sent: Wednesday, 29 July 2015 15:30 To: rok@bango.org.bb; 'Bartlett Morgan' Cc: lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [lac-discuss-en] Rule 11.2 Dear Roosvelt, Why do you think the official language is English in LACRALO? Regards El 29/07/2015 a las 08:27 p.m., Roosevelt King escribió:
"In no case" means "under any circumstances", even if you say there are exceptions, the exceptions would be one case/circumstance... the rule says, "in no case". I am not sure what is so difficult about that to understand or is it a case of unwillingness to understand? The English version does not confirm your interpretation and hence there is no way that the Spanish version could. Using language as a Red Herring? Is not the official language English? The Spanish translators need to get it right? You questioning the translation? That does not make you right???
ROK
-----Original Message----- From: Humberto Carrasco [mailto:hcarrascob@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, 29 July 2015 14:49 To: rok@bango.org.bb; 'Bartlett Morgan' Cc: lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [lac-discuss-en] Rule 11.2
I disagree.
Furthermore, if you read the Spanish version, the wording confirms our interpretation.
Regards
El 29/07/2015 a las 07:23 p.m., Roosevelt King escribió:
Bartlett is correct.
ROK
-----Original Message----- From: lac-discuss-en-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:lac-discuss-en-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] On Behalf Of Bartlett Morgan Sent: Wednesday, 29 July 2015 10:31 To: Humberto Carrasco Cc: lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [lac-discuss-en] Rule 11.2
Hi Humberto, The controlling phrase in the rule is "in no case less than two weeks". Therefore even in the case of exceptions, that requirement would have to be complied with.
I don't think your interpretation is faithful to the plain literal meaning of the rule.
$.02
-- Bartlett Morgan
Sent from my Cyanogen phone
On Jul 29, 2015 9:33 AM, Humberto Carrasco <hcarrascob@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Dev,
There is no misunderstanding.
The rule says "As a general rule", in spanish "Como regla General". This wording means, that there could be some exceptions. We used this exception.
I explained the reasons before.
Regards
El 29/07/2015 a las 02:06 p.m., Dev Anand Teelucksingh escribió:
I'll repost Rule 11.2 since there seems to be a misunderstanding.
11.2 As a general rule, no draft resolution or amendment shall be discussed or put to the vote unless it has been circulated sufficiently in advance, but in no case less than two weeks, to all participants in the working languages of the Assembly.
11.2 Como regla general. sólo se tratarán y se someterán a votación las resoluciones o enmiendas que se hayan distribuido con al menos dos semanas de anticipación, a todos los participantes de la Asamblea, en todos los idiomas con los que ésta trabaje.
Dev Anand
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https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-en
lac-discuss-en mailing list lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-en
_______________________________________________ lac-discuss-en mailing list lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-en
Well, I am not saying that Spanish is the official language. I say that we have no official language in LACRALO because our Operative principles and RoP say nothing about that. Regards El 29/07/2015 a las 08:34 p.m., BANGO escribió:
My! My! The official language of ICANN is English. Is it different in the regions? Of course if you deem the official language to be Spanish in LACRALO, Long live the Emperor.
ROK
-----Original Message----- From: lac-discuss-en-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:lac-discuss-en-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] On Behalf Of Humberto Carrasco Sent: Wednesday, 29 July 2015 15:30 To: rok@bango.org.bb; 'Bartlett Morgan' Cc: lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [lac-discuss-en] Rule 11.2
Dear Roosvelt,
Why do you think the official language is English in LACRALO?
Regards
El 29/07/2015 a las 08:27 p.m., Roosevelt King escribió:
"In no case" means "under any circumstances", even if you say there are exceptions, the exceptions would be one case/circumstance... the rule says, "in no case". I am not sure what is so difficult about that to understand or is it a case of unwillingness to understand? The English version does not confirm your interpretation and hence there is no way that the Spanish version could. Using language as a Red Herring? Is not the official language English? The Spanish translators need to get it right? You questioning the translation? That does not make you right???
ROK
-----Original Message----- From: Humberto Carrasco [mailto:hcarrascob@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, 29 July 2015 14:49 To: rok@bango.org.bb; 'Bartlett Morgan' Cc: lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [lac-discuss-en] Rule 11.2
I disagree.
Furthermore, if you read the Spanish version, the wording confirms our interpretation.
Regards
El 29/07/2015 a las 07:23 p.m., Roosevelt King escribió:
Bartlett is correct.
ROK
-----Original Message----- From: lac-discuss-en-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:lac-discuss-en-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] On Behalf Of Bartlett Morgan Sent: Wednesday, 29 July 2015 10:31 To: Humberto Carrasco Cc: lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [lac-discuss-en] Rule 11.2
Hi Humberto, The controlling phrase in the rule is "in no case less than two weeks". Therefore even in the case of exceptions, that requirement would have to be complied with.
I don't think your interpretation is faithful to the plain literal meaning of the rule.
$.02
-- Bartlett Morgan
Sent from my Cyanogen phone
On Jul 29, 2015 9:33 AM, Humberto Carrasco <hcarrascob@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Dev,
There is no misunderstanding.
The rule says "As a general rule", in spanish "Como regla General". This wording means, that there could be some exceptions. We used this exception.
I explained the reasons before.
Regards
El 29/07/2015 a las 02:06 p.m., Dev Anand Teelucksingh escribió:
I'll repost Rule 11.2 since there seems to be a misunderstanding.
11.2 As a general rule, no draft resolution or amendment shall be discussed or put to the vote unless it has been circulated sufficiently in advance, but in no case less than two weeks, to all participants in the working languages of the Assembly.
11.2 Como regla general. sólo se tratarán y se someterán a votación las resoluciones o enmiendas que se hayan distribuido con al menos dos semanas de anticipación, a todos los participantes de la Asamblea, en todos los idiomas con los que ésta trabaje.
Dev Anand
_______________________________________________
lac-discuss-en mailing list
lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org
https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-en
lac-discuss-en mailing list lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-en
lac-discuss-en mailing list lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-en
I think EVERYONE should stop and read the Operating Principles. LACRALO started as a BILINGUAL group. The first in ICANN. The plans were to increase the number of operating languages as necessary. It was the first thing decided at the first planning meeting to create LACRALO. So ROK and Humberto, you are both wrong. Sincerely, and getting quite fed up with people who do not read the rules before discussing them as if they know facts. Jacqueline
I spoke of the official language in ICANN, which is English. Humberto introduced LACRALO which is when I asked him if he is deeming Spanish to be the official language of LACRALO. I am not sure how that adds up to not reading the rules? ROK From: Jacqueline Morris [mailto:jam@jacquelinemorris.com] Sent: Wednesday, 29 July 2015 16:18 To: Humberto Carrasco Cc: Roosvelt O. King; Webmaster; Bartlett Morgan; lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [lac-discuss-en] Rule 11.2 I think EVERYONE should stop and read the Operating Principles. LACRALO started as a BILINGUAL group. The first in ICANN. The plans were to increase the number of operating languages as necessary. It was the first thing decided at the first planning meeting to create LACRALO. So ROK and Humberto, you are both wrong. Sincerely, and getting quite fed up with people who do not read the rules before discussing them as if they know facts. Jacqueline
Dear Roosevelt You wrote and I quote: "Is not the official language English? The Spanish translators need to get it right? You questioning the translation? " Unfortunately you didn't refer to the official language of who or what here. Given that LACRALO is the topic of discussion, I think it only reasonable for the reader to assume that you meant the official language of LACRALO. I certainly read it as such. We try our best to function in a bi- and tri-lingual way. It helps to be extremely clear and be sure to clearly spell out subject and object when writing in this sort of environment. My $0.02 Jacqueline A. Morris Technology should be like oxygen: Ubiquitous, Necessary, Invisible and Free. (after Chris Lehmann <http://twitter.com/chrislehmann> ) On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 4:26 PM, Roosevelt King <rok@bango.org.bb> wrote:
I spoke of the official language in ICANN, which is English. Humberto introduced LACRALO which is when I asked him if he is deeming Spanish to be the official language of LACRALO. I am not sure how that adds up to not reading the rules?
ROK
*From:* Jacqueline Morris [mailto:jam@jacquelinemorris.com] *Sent:* Wednesday, 29 July 2015 16:18 *To:* Humberto Carrasco *Cc:* Roosvelt O. King; Webmaster; Bartlett Morgan; lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org *Subject:* Re: [lac-discuss-en] Rule 11.2
I think EVERYONE should stop and read the Operating Principles. LACRALO started as a BILINGUAL group. The first in ICANN. The plans were to increase the number of operating languages as necessary. It was the first thing decided at the first planning meeting to create LACRALO.
So ROK and Humberto, you are both wrong.
Sincerely, and getting quite fed up with people who do not read the rules before discussing them as if they know facts.
Jacqueline
BTW - the documents were written in both Spanish and English at the same time. Neither was a simple translation from the other. Ask Carlton about that process. JAM Jacqueline A. Morris Technology should be like oxygen: Ubiquitous, Necessary, Invisible and Free. (after Chris Lehmann <http://twitter.com/chrislehmann> ) On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 4:35 PM, Jacqueline Morris <jam@jacquelinemorris.com
wrote:
Dear Roosevelt You wrote and I quote: "Is not the official language English? The Spanish translators need to get it right? You questioning the translation? "
Unfortunately you didn't refer to the official language of who or what here.
Given that LACRALO is the topic of discussion, I think it only reasonable for the reader to assume that you meant the official language of LACRALO. I certainly read it as such. We try our best to function in a bi- and tri-lingual way. It helps to be extremely clear and be sure to clearly spell out subject and object when writing in this sort of environment.
My $0.02
Jacqueline A. Morris Technology should be like oxygen: Ubiquitous, Necessary, Invisible and Free. (after Chris Lehmann <http://twitter.com/chrislehmann> )
On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 4:26 PM, Roosevelt King <rok@bango.org.bb> wrote:
I spoke of the official language in ICANN, which is English. Humberto introduced LACRALO which is when I asked him if he is deeming Spanish to be the official language of LACRALO. I am not sure how that adds up to not reading the rules?
ROK
*From:* Jacqueline Morris [mailto:jam@jacquelinemorris.com] *Sent:* Wednesday, 29 July 2015 16:18 *To:* Humberto Carrasco *Cc:* Roosvelt O. King; Webmaster; Bartlett Morgan; lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org *Subject:* Re: [lac-discuss-en] Rule 11.2
I think EVERYONE should stop and read the Operating Principles. LACRALO started as a BILINGUAL group. The first in ICANN. The plans were to increase the number of operating languages as necessary. It was the first thing decided at the first planning meeting to create LACRALO.
So ROK and Humberto, you are both wrong.
Sincerely, and getting quite fed up with people who do not read the rules before discussing them as if they know facts.
Jacqueline
Long days as I recall. All in order to ensure there was balance, fairness and clarity on both sides On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 4:36 PM, Jacqueline Morris <jam@jacquelinemorris.com
wrote:
BTW - the documents were written in both Spanish and English at the same time. Neither was a simple translation from the other. Ask Carlton about that process. JAM
Jacqueline A. Morris Technology should be like oxygen: Ubiquitous, Necessary, Invisible and Free. (after Chris Lehmann <http://twitter.com/chrislehmann> )
On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 4:35 PM, Jacqueline Morris < jam@jacquelinemorris.com> wrote:
Dear Roosevelt You wrote and I quote: "Is not the official language English? The Spanish translators need to get it right? You questioning the translation? "
Unfortunately you didn't refer to the official language of who or what here.
Given that LACRALO is the topic of discussion, I think it only reasonable for the reader to assume that you meant the official language of LACRALO. I certainly read it as such. We try our best to function in a bi- and tri-lingual way. It helps to be extremely clear and be sure to clearly spell out subject and object when writing in this sort of environment.
My $0.02
Jacqueline A. Morris Technology should be like oxygen: Ubiquitous, Necessary, Invisible and Free. (after Chris Lehmann <http://twitter.com/chrislehmann> )
On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 4:26 PM, Roosevelt King <rok@bango.org.bb> wrote:
I spoke of the official language in ICANN, which is English. Humberto introduced LACRALO which is when I asked him if he is deeming Spanish to be the official language of LACRALO. I am not sure how that adds up to not reading the rules?
ROK
*From:* Jacqueline Morris [mailto:jam@jacquelinemorris.com] *Sent:* Wednesday, 29 July 2015 16:18 *To:* Humberto Carrasco *Cc:* Roosvelt O. King; Webmaster; Bartlett Morgan; lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org *Subject:* Re: [lac-discuss-en] Rule 11.2
I think EVERYONE should stop and read the Operating Principles. LACRALO started as a BILINGUAL group. The first in ICANN. The plans were to increase the number of operating languages as necessary. It was the first thing decided at the first planning meeting to create LACRALO.
So ROK and Humberto, you are both wrong.
Sincerely, and getting quite fed up with people who do not read the rules before discussing them as if they know facts.
Jacqueline
_______________________________________________ lac-discuss-en mailing list lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-en
-- Lance Hinds Chief Technology Officer BrainStreet Group 287 'C' Albert St. Georgetown Guyana This message contains information that may be privileged and/or confidential and is the property of BrainStreet Technologies or BrainStreet Learning. The information contained herein is intended only for the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and others authorized to receive it . If you are not the intended recipient, you are not authorized to read, print, retain, copy, disseminate, distribute, or take any action in reliance to the contents of this information or any part thereof and it may be unlawful to do so. If you receive this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this message from your system. BrainStreet Technologies or BrainStreet Learning are neither liable for the proper and complete transmission of the information contained in this communication nor any delay in its receipt.
True, Lance, you were one of those stalwart souls hammering out text that meant the same in multiple languages, with way too many lawyers in the room! You guys did amazing. Pity that early work is so forgotten. Jacqueline A. Morris Technology should be like oxygen: Ubiquitous, Necessary, Invisible and Free. (after Chris Lehmann <http://twitter.com/chrislehmann> ) On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 4:39 PM, Lance Hinds <brainstreetceo@gmail.com> wrote:
Long days as I recall. All in order to ensure there was balance, fairness and clarity on both sides
On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 4:36 PM, Jacqueline Morris < jam@jacquelinemorris.com> wrote:
BTW - the documents were written in both Spanish and English at the same time. Neither was a simple translation from the other. Ask Carlton about that process. JAM
Jacqueline A. Morris Technology should be like oxygen: Ubiquitous, Necessary, Invisible and Free. (after Chris Lehmann <http://twitter.com/chrislehmann> )
On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 4:35 PM, Jacqueline Morris < jam@jacquelinemorris.com> wrote:
Dear Roosevelt You wrote and I quote: "Is not the official language English? The Spanish translators need to get it right? You questioning the translation? "
Unfortunately you didn't refer to the official language of who or what here.
Given that LACRALO is the topic of discussion, I think it only reasonable for the reader to assume that you meant the official language of LACRALO. I certainly read it as such. We try our best to function in a bi- and tri-lingual way. It helps to be extremely clear and be sure to clearly spell out subject and object when writing in this sort of environment.
My $0.02
Jacqueline A. Morris Technology should be like oxygen: Ubiquitous, Necessary, Invisible and Free. (after Chris Lehmann <http://twitter.com/chrislehmann> )
On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 4:26 PM, Roosevelt King <rok@bango.org.bb> wrote:
I spoke of the official language in ICANN, which is English. Humberto introduced LACRALO which is when I asked him if he is deeming Spanish to be the official language of LACRALO. I am not sure how that adds up to not reading the rules?
ROK
*From:* Jacqueline Morris [mailto:jam@jacquelinemorris.com] *Sent:* Wednesday, 29 July 2015 16:18 *To:* Humberto Carrasco *Cc:* Roosvelt O. King; Webmaster; Bartlett Morgan; lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org *Subject:* Re: [lac-discuss-en] Rule 11.2
I think EVERYONE should stop and read the Operating Principles. LACRALO started as a BILINGUAL group. The first in ICANN. The plans were to increase the number of operating languages as necessary. It was the first thing decided at the first planning meeting to create LACRALO.
So ROK and Humberto, you are both wrong.
Sincerely, and getting quite fed up with people who do not read the rules before discussing them as if they know facts.
Jacqueline
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From the operating principles
3. The LacRALO will be multilingual from its inception. All documents will be written and all discussions will be held in English and Spanish. It is planned to add Portuguese and French in the near future and to periodically reassess the need to add other languages used in the region. On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 4:18 PM, Jacqueline Morris <jam@jacquelinemorris.com
wrote:
I think EVERYONE should stop and read the Operating Principles. LACRALO started as a BILINGUAL group. The first in ICANN. The plans were to increase the number of operating languages as necessary. It was the first thing decided at the first planning meeting to create LACRALO. So ROK and Humberto, you are both wrong. Sincerely, and getting quite fed up with people who do not read the rules before discussing them as if they know facts. Jacqueline
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-- Lance Hinds Chief Technology Officer BrainStreet Group 287 'C' Albert St. Georgetown Guyana This message contains information that may be privileged and/or confidential and is the property of BrainStreet Technologies or BrainStreet Learning. The information contained herein is intended only for the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and others authorized to receive it . If you are not the intended recipient, you are not authorized to read, print, retain, copy, disseminate, distribute, or take any action in reliance to the contents of this information or any part thereof and it may be unlawful to do so. If you receive this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this message from your system. BrainStreet Technologies or BrainStreet Learning are neither liable for the proper and complete transmission of the information contained in this communication nor any delay in its receipt.
Um, well, here we go again. The ignorance of LACRALO institutional arrangements is now past troubling. Yet again, I urge the leadership to take up and study the instruments. You are not doing yourself proud in these episodes. And worse, there is a certain arrogance coming across with the ignorance. Language is defined in the Operating Principles, a must read for the Secretariat. Here's the relevant section, in English: Operating Principles : *"The LacRALO will be multilingual from its inception. All documents* *will be written and all discussions will be held in English and Spanish. It* *is planned to add Portuguese and French in the near future and to* *periodically reassess the need to add other languages used in the region."* That is a definition of official as we can get. -Carlton Samuels ============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* ============================= On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 2:43 PM, Humberto Carrasco <hcarrascob@gmail.com> wrote:
Well,
I am not saying that Spanish is the official language. I say that we have no official language in LACRALO because our Operative principles and RoP say nothing about that.
Regards
El 29/07/2015 a las 08:34 p.m., BANGO escribió:
My! My! The official language of ICANN is English. Is it different in the regions? Of course if you deem the official language to be Spanish in LACRALO, Long live the Emperor.
ROK
-----Original Message----- From: lac-discuss-en-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto: lac-discuss-en-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] On Behalf Of Humberto Carrasco Sent: Wednesday, 29 July 2015 15:30 To: rok@bango.org.bb; 'Bartlett Morgan' Cc: lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [lac-discuss-en] Rule 11.2
Dear Roosvelt,
Why do you think the official language is English in LACRALO?
Regards
El 29/07/2015 a las 08:27 p.m., Roosevelt King escribió:
"In no case" means "under any circumstances", even if you say there are exceptions, the exceptions would be one case/circumstance... the rule says, "in no case". I am not sure what is so difficult about that to understand or is it a case of unwillingness to understand? The English version does not confirm your interpretation and hence there is no way that the Spanish version could. Using language as a Red Herring? Is not the official language English? The Spanish translators need to get it right? You questioning the translation? That does not make you right???
ROK
-----Original Message----- From: Humberto Carrasco [mailto:hcarrascob@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, 29 July 2015 14:49 To: rok@bango.org.bb; 'Bartlett Morgan' Cc: lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [lac-discuss-en] Rule 11.2
I disagree.
Furthermore, if you read the Spanish version, the wording confirms our interpretation.
Regards
El 29/07/2015 a las 07:23 p.m., Roosevelt King escribió:
Bartlett is correct.
ROK
-----Original Message----- From: lac-discuss-en-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:lac-discuss-en-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] On Behalf Of Bartlett Morgan Sent: Wednesday, 29 July 2015 10:31 To: Humberto Carrasco Cc: lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [lac-discuss-en] Rule 11.2
Hi Humberto, The controlling phrase in the rule is "in no case less than two weeks". Therefore even in the case of exceptions, that requirement would have to be complied with.
I don't think your interpretation is faithful to the plain literal meaning of the rule.
$.02
-- Bartlett Morgan
Sent from my Cyanogen phone
On Jul 29, 2015 9:33 AM, Humberto Carrasco <hcarrascob@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Dev,
There is no misunderstanding.
The rule says "As a general rule", in spanish "Como regla General". This wording means, that there could be some exceptions. We used this exception.
I explained the reasons before.
Regards
El 29/07/2015 a las 02:06 p.m., Dev Anand Teelucksingh escribió:
I'll repost Rule 11.2 since there seems to be a misunderstanding.
11.2 As a general rule, no draft resolution or amendment shall be discussed or put to the vote unless it has been circulated sufficiently in advance, but in no case less than two weeks, to all participants in the working languages of the Assembly.
11.2 Como regla general. sólo se tratarán y se someterán a votación las resoluciones o enmiendas que se hayan distribuido con al menos dos semanas de anticipación, a todos los participantes de la Asamblea, en todos los idiomas con los que ésta trabaje.
Dev Anand
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Roosevelt: ICANN affairs leads with English but it has gone a long way to include other languages in its operations. Some of us fought long and hard for that. In respect of RALO, each operates by rules it develops. So from its inception, we agreed LACRALO would be multilingual. I was instrumental in that decision because on principle, I believe one must have the right to communicate and defend one's interest in the language one speaks best. My principles don't mutate for convenience. So for example, I encouraged non-English speakers to present themselves for leadership on the same basis as English speakers. And in the early days we actually elected representatives who did not speak English at the time. Looking back, maybe we were wrong to champion multilingual operations. Comparing LACRALO to others, AFRALO use both English and French, APRALO and EURALO, just English. They don't seem to have the problems we do. -Carlton Samuels ============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* ============================= On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 2:34 PM, BANGO <admin@bango.org.bb> wrote:
My! My! The official language of ICANN is English. Is it different in the regions? Of course if you deem the official language to be Spanish in LACRALO, Long live the Emperor.
ROK
-----Original Message----- From: lac-discuss-en-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto: lac-discuss-en-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] On Behalf Of Humberto Carrasco Sent: Wednesday, 29 July 2015 15:30 To: rok@bango.org.bb; 'Bartlett Morgan' Cc: lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [lac-discuss-en] Rule 11.2
Dear Roosvelt,
Why do you think the official language is English in LACRALO?
Regards
El 29/07/2015 a las 08:27 p.m., Roosevelt King escribió:
"In no case" means "under any circumstances", even if you say there are exceptions, the exceptions would be one case/circumstance... the rule says, "in no case". I am not sure what is so difficult about that to understand or is it a case of unwillingness to understand? The English version does not confirm your interpretation and hence there is no way that the Spanish version could. Using language as a Red Herring? Is not the official language English? The Spanish translators need to get it right? You questioning the translation? That does not make you right???
ROK
-----Original Message----- From: Humberto Carrasco [mailto:hcarrascob@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, 29 July 2015 14:49 To: rok@bango.org.bb; 'Bartlett Morgan' Cc: lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [lac-discuss-en] Rule 11.2
I disagree.
Furthermore, if you read the Spanish version, the wording confirms our interpretation.
Regards
El 29/07/2015 a las 07:23 p.m., Roosevelt King escribió:
Bartlett is correct.
ROK
-----Original Message----- From: lac-discuss-en-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:lac-discuss-en-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] On Behalf Of Bartlett Morgan Sent: Wednesday, 29 July 2015 10:31 To: Humberto Carrasco Cc: lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [lac-discuss-en] Rule 11.2
Hi Humberto, The controlling phrase in the rule is "in no case less than two weeks". Therefore even in the case of exceptions, that requirement would have to be complied with.
I don't think your interpretation is faithful to the plain literal meaning of the rule.
$.02
-- Bartlett Morgan
Sent from my Cyanogen phone
On Jul 29, 2015 9:33 AM, Humberto Carrasco <hcarrascob@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Dev,
There is no misunderstanding.
The rule says "As a general rule", in spanish "Como regla General". This wording means, that there could be some exceptions. We used this exception.
I explained the reasons before.
Regards
El 29/07/2015 a las 02:06 p.m., Dev Anand Teelucksingh escribió:
I'll repost Rule 11.2 since there seems to be a misunderstanding.
11.2 As a general rule, no draft resolution or amendment shall be discussed or put to the vote unless it has been circulated sufficiently in advance, but in no case less than two weeks, to all participants in the working languages of the Assembly.
11.2 Como regla general. sólo se tratarán y se someterán a votación las resoluciones o enmiendas que se hayan distribuido con al menos dos semanas de anticipación, a todos los participantes de la Asamblea, en todos los idiomas con los que ésta trabaje.
Dev Anand
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Members of LACRALO will be aware that I have been asked to look at the election process to give my view as to whether this has been a fair procedure. As the ICANN ombudsman it is part of my mandate to look at matters of unfairness within the ICANN community, which therefore includes an involvement where a process has taken place, and where I receive a complaint of unfairness. The process for nomination as the LACRALO representative for the period 2015 – 2017 began with the 30 April announcement of the call for nominations, and for statements by anyone nominated. The nomination period lasted from 30 April to the 9th May, and during that period Lance Hinds was nominated by Jose Francisco Arce. There were no other nominations. The timetable would have included an election period if there were other candidates, but as no other nominations were received, an announcement was made that Lance Hinds was elected by acclamation. However some members of LACRALO expressed concern that because there was only one nominee, that previous precedent required that there had to be a poll to certify that the majority of the ALS supported the sole nomination. On 20 July there was a scheduled LACRALO conference call, where it was suggested that Lance Hinds was not eligible because it was alleged that he had participation in businesses which created a conflict of interest. Lance has asserted strongly that while he does own a small software development company, and is the president of a local business support organisation (a volunteer position) that he had no conflict. He asserted neither of those interests had anything to do with ICANN policy development. Normally this should be decided by the election process rather than a poll subsequently held. The next step was that the poll took place and staff announced the results based on the process announced by Humberto and Alberto, which were 21 against, 19 in favour and 3 abstentions. The abstentions were not counted. Accordingly the LACRALO chair and secretary declared that the results meant that there had to be a new election. I have spoken to some, but unfortunately have not had time to talk to all of the interested parties. I express regret that in a volunteer organisation, there appeared to be attempts to silo categories of persons eligible, when there are clearly only a limited number of people with the enthusiasm and time, especially in smaller countries. It has been said to me that particularly in the Caribbean, there are only a small number of people who have the qualifications and ability to serve, and that they will often wear several different hats. In my view it would be a great pity to try to exclude enthusiastic volunteers, but of course there is an election process to properly canvass those issues. In general, when there is an election process which has been challenged, the fairest way to proceed is to rerun the process. There is also an issue of perceived fairness. Even if the process was run correctly, if there are strong views about the process, then an open and transparent procedure calling a further election would answer any issues of perceived unfairness, as the parties can then go into the second process fully aware of the issues. In this case I am conscious that there is criticism of the decision to hold a poll, with a number considering that Lance Hinds should have been selected by virtue of being the sole nominee, without the need for a poll. Looking forward, it would be valuable to have a consensus view on whether the rules should be amended to provide for this specifically. But in a situation where there has been a vote against a candidate, the fair process would be to rerun the election, and that is my recommendation. I am available to discuss this further if needed and invite anyone to contact me, in confidence if necessary. Chris LaHatte Ombudsman Blog https://omblog.icann.org/ Webpage http://www.icann.org/en/help/ombudsman Confidentiality All matters brought before the Ombudsman shall be treated as confidential. The Ombudsman shall also take all reasonable steps necessary to preserve the privacy of, and to avoid harm to, those parties not involved in the complaint being investigated by the Ombudsman. The Ombudsman shall only make inquiries about, or advise staff or Board members of the existence and identity of, a complainant in order to further the resolution of the complaint. The Ombudsman shall take all reasonable steps necessary to ensure that if staff and Board members are made aware of the existence and identity of a complainant, they agree to maintain the confidential nature of such information, except as necessary to further the resolution of a complaint
Dear LACRALO members, Hope we can have a reasonable feedback from all members on the Ombudsman’s review, particularly his final recommendations “ In this case I am conscious that there is criticism of the decision to hold a poll, with a number considering that Lance Hinds should have been selected by virtue of being the sole nominee, without the need for a poll. Looking forward, it would be valuable to have a consensus view on whether the rules should be amended to provide for this specifically. But in a situation where there has been a vote against a candidate, the fair process would be to rerun the election, and that is my recommendation.” Best regards Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez +506 8837 7176 Skype: carlos.raulg On 3 Aug 2015, at 15:55, Chris LaHatte wrote:
Members of LACRALO will be aware that I have been asked to look at the election process to give my view as to whether this has been a fair procedure. As the ICANN ombudsman it is part of my mandate to look at matters of unfairness within the ICANN community, which therefore includes an involvement where a process has taken place, and where I receive a complaint of unfairness.
The process for nomination as the LACRALO representative for the period 2015 – 2017 began with the 30 April announcement of the call for nominations, and for statements by anyone nominated. The nomination period lasted from 30 April to the 9th May, and during that period Lance Hinds was nominated by Jose Francisco Arce. There were no other nominations. The timetable would have included an election period if there were other candidates, but as no other nominations were received, an announcement was made that Lance Hinds was elected by acclamation. However some members of LACRALO expressed concern that because there was only one nominee, that previous precedent required that there had to be a poll to certify that the majority of the ALS supported the sole nomination.
On 20 July there was a scheduled LACRALO conference call, where it was suggested that Lance Hinds was not eligible because it was alleged that he had participation in businesses which created a conflict of interest. Lance has asserted strongly that while he does own a small software development company, and is the president of a local business support organisation (a volunteer position) that he had no conflict. He asserted neither of those interests had anything to do with ICANN policy development. Normally this should be decided by the election process rather than a poll subsequently held.
The next step was that the poll took place and staff announced the results based on the process announced by Humberto and Alberto, which were 21 against, 19 in favour and 3 abstentions. The abstentions were not counted. Accordingly the LACRALO chair and secretary declared that the results meant that there had to be a new election.
I have spoken to some, but unfortunately have not had time to talk to all of the interested parties. I express regret that in a volunteer organisation, there appeared to be attempts to silo categories of persons eligible, when there are clearly only a limited number of people with the enthusiasm and time, especially in smaller countries.
It has been said to me that particularly in the Caribbean, there are only a small number of people who have the qualifications and ability to serve, and that they will often wear several different hats. In my view it would be a great pity to try to exclude enthusiastic volunteers, but of course there is an election process to properly canvass those issues.
In general, when there is an election process which has been challenged, the fairest way to proceed is to rerun the process. There is also an issue of perceived fairness. Even if the process was run correctly, if there are strong views about the process, then an open and transparent procedure calling a further election would answer any issues of perceived unfairness, as the parties can then go into the second process fully aware of the issues.
In this case I am conscious that there is criticism of the decision to hold a poll, with a number considering that Lance Hinds should have been selected by virtue of being the sole nominee, without the need for a poll. Looking forward, it would be valuable to have a consensus view on whether the rules should be amended to provide for this specifically. But in a situation where there has been a vote against a candidate, the fair process would be to rerun the election, and that is my recommendation.
I am available to discuss this further if needed and invite anyone to contact me, in confidence if necessary.
Chris LaHatte Ombudsman Blog https://omblog.icann.org/ Webpage http://www.icann.org/en/help/ombudsman
Confidentiality All matters brought before the Ombudsman shall be treated as confidential. The Ombudsman shall also take all reasonable steps necessary to preserve the privacy of, and to avoid harm to, those parties not involved in the complaint being investigated by the Ombudsman. The Ombudsman shall only make inquiries about, or advise staff or Board members of the existence and identity of, a complainant in order to further the resolution of the complaint. The Ombudsman shall take all reasonable steps necessary to ensure that if staff and Board members are made aware of the existence and identity of a complainant, they agree to maintain the confidential nature of such information, except as necessary to further the resolution of a complaint
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participants (8)
-
BANGO -
Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez -
Carlton Samuels -
Chris LaHatte -
Humberto Carrasco -
Jacqueline Morris -
Lance Hinds -
Roosevelt King