Draft in-script variants
Dear Latin GP, Here is the compilation of current in-script variant candidates for our review during tomorrow’s call. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bKKFHxbjgBd9CIPRiuOsej_3x670yTytUMM32Ou7... Talk to you all soon. Best, -Dennis
I've taken the liberty of adding a couple dozen additional candidates. (I held off the Rating 2 cases. These are the slam dunks.) I still think that, as discussed last week, we ought to include more cases rather than fewer. Especially when we are sending a draft to the IP for review -- that's when they can tell us if we have taken a wrong turn. Bill Jouris Inside Products bill.jouris@insidethestack.com 831-659-8360 925-855-9512 (direct) From: "Tan Tanaka, Dennis via Latingp" <latingp@icann.org> To: "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 7:43 PM Subject: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants <!--#yiv4375891876 _filtered #yiv4375891876 {font-family:"Cambria Math";panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv4375891876 {font-family:DengXian;panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;} _filtered #yiv4375891876 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv4375891876 {panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;}#yiv4375891876 #yiv4375891876 p.yiv4375891876MsoNormal, #yiv4375891876 li.yiv4375891876MsoNormal, #yiv4375891876 div.yiv4375891876MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;}#yiv4375891876 a:link, #yiv4375891876 span.yiv4375891876MsoHyperlink {color:#0563C1;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv4375891876 a:visited, #yiv4375891876 span.yiv4375891876MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:#954F72;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv4375891876 span.yiv4375891876EmailStyle17 {font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;color:windowtext;}#yiv4375891876 .yiv4375891876MsoChpDefault {font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;} _filtered #yiv4375891876 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv4375891876 div.yiv4375891876WordSection1 {}-->Dear Latin GP, Here is the compilation of current in-script variant candidates for our review during tomorrow’s call. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bKKFHxbjgBd9CIPRiuOsej_3x670yTytUMM32Ou7... Talk to you all soon. Best, -Dennis _______________________________________________ Latingp mailing list Latingp@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/latingp
Hi Bill, On 23.08.2018 05:43, Bill Jouris wrote:
I've taken the liberty of adding a couple dozen additional candidates. (I held off the Rating 2 cases. These are the slam dunks.)
I have a few comments regarding your suggestions. Firstly, if we add these cases we also need to add all cases introduced by transitivity, e.g., 0065 and 0119 and 1EB9, or 00E8 and 00E9 and 0117 and 1EB9+0300 and 1EB9+0301 should then all be variants of each other, respectively. Secondly, we don't have a rationale to add them, do we? We could just say, we think that they look similar enough to allow for confusion. And I'm not sure this is enough for the IP ... though, we could try of course. Best regards, Michael -- ____________________________________________________________________ | | | knipp | Knipp Medien und Kommunikation GmbH ------- Technologiepark Martin-Schmeisser-Weg 9 44227 Dortmund Germany Dipl.-Informatiker Fon: +49 231 9703-0 Fax: +49 231 9703-200 Dr. Michael Bauland SIP: Michael.Bauland@knipp.de Software Development E-mail: Michael.Bauland@knipp.de Register Court: Amtsgericht Dortmund, HRB 13728 Chief Executive Officers: Dietmar Knipp, Elmar Knipp
Hi Michael, When we were evaluating the cross-script variant, we used a 5 point scale, with 1 and 2 being variants and 3 being confusible. All I have done is apply the same criteria. And just listed those at level 1, ignoring level 2 completely for the moment -- even though consistency with the cross-script variants would indicate including those as well. Others may disagree with that ranking, of course. That's why we have discussions to review them. On the other hand, I'm having trouble seeing anyone (other than maybe Dennis) rating any of these as a 3 or beyond. Note that I haven't even started on the ones, approaching 150 in number (and I haven't finished the Letter O) which would rank level 2! As you note, if the IP thinks we have been too inclusive, they can say so. On the other hand, if we don't suggest something, they would be extremely unlikely to recommend additions. Better, then, to have our draft include more rather than fewer. Best Regards, Bill Jouris Inside Products bill.jouris@insidethestack.com 831-659-8360 925-855-9512 (direct) From: Michael Bauland <Michael.Bauland@knipp.de> To: latingp@icann.org Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2018 2:51 AM Subject: Re: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants Hi Bill, On 23.08.2018 05:43, Bill Jouris wrote:
I've taken the liberty of adding a couple dozen additional candidates. (I held off the Rating 2 cases. These are the slam dunks.)
I have a few comments regarding your suggestions. Firstly, if we add these cases we also need to add all cases introduced by transitivity, e.g., 0065 and 0119 and 1EB9, or 00E8 and 00E9 and 0117 and 1EB9+0300 and 1EB9+0301 should then all be variants of each other, respectively. Secondly, we don't have a rationale to add them, do we? We could just say, we think that they look similar enough to allow for confusion. And I'm not sure this is enough for the IP ... though, we could try of course. Best regards, Michael -- ____________________________________________________________________ | | | knipp | Knipp Medien und Kommunikation GmbH ------- Technologiepark Martin-Schmeisser-Weg 9 44227 Dortmund Germany Dipl.-Informatiker Fon: +49 231 9703-0 Fax: +49 231 9703-200 Dr. Michael Bauland SIP: Michael.Bauland@knipp.de Software Development E-mail: Michael.Bauland@knipp.de Register Court: Amtsgericht Dortmund, HRB 13728 Chief Executive Officers: Dietmar Knipp, Elmar Knipp _______________________________________________ Latingp mailing list Latingp@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/latingp
Bill, For in-script variants IP asked we provide evidence of the variant relationship. Since the cases you are proposing do not fall in the homoglyph category, the panel must provide a strong reason for inclusion (e.g. Marshelle cases) Thanks, Dennis From: Latingp <latingp-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Bill Jouris <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> Reply-To: Bill Jouris <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> Date: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 at 11:54 PM To: "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants I've taken the liberty of adding a couple dozen additional candidates. (I held off the Rating 2 cases. These are the slam dunks.) I still think that, as discussed last week, we ought to include more cases rather than fewer. Especially when we are sending a draft to the IP for review -- that's when they can tell us if we have taken a wrong turn. Bill Jouris Inside Products bill.jouris@insidethestack.com 831-659-8360 925-855-9512 (direct) ________________________________ From: "Tan Tanaka, Dennis via Latingp" <latingp@icann.org> To: "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 7:43 PM Subject: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants Dear Latin GP, Here is the compilation of current in-script variant candidates for our review during tomorrow’s call. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bKKFHxbjgBd9CIPRiuOsej_3x670yTytUMM32Ou7... Talk to you all soon. Best, -Dennis _______________________________________________ Latingp mailing list Latingp@icann.org<mailto:Latingp@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/latingp
As far as I can see, all of the Marshallese references are to justify exclusion. Not inclusion. What am I missing? Bill Jouris Inside Products bill.jouris@insidethestack.com 831-659-8360 925-855-9512 (direct) From: "Tan Tanaka, Dennis" <dtantanaka@verisign.com> To: "bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com>; "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2018 11:13 AM Subject: Re: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants #yiv8032350858 #yiv8032350858 -- _filtered #yiv8032350858 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8032350858 {font-family:DengXian;panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;} _filtered #yiv8032350858 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8032350858 {panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;} _filtered #yiv8032350858 {panose-1:2 0 5 3 0 0 0 2 0 4;}#yiv8032350858 #yiv8032350858 p.yiv8032350858MsoNormal, #yiv8032350858 li.yiv8032350858MsoNormal, #yiv8032350858 div.yiv8032350858MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv8032350858 a:link, #yiv8032350858 span.yiv8032350858MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8032350858 a:visited, #yiv8032350858 span.yiv8032350858MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8032350858 p.yiv8032350858msonormal0, #yiv8032350858 li.yiv8032350858msonormal0, #yiv8032350858 div.yiv8032350858msonormal0 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv8032350858 p.yiv8032350858msonormal, #yiv8032350858 li.yiv8032350858msonormal, #yiv8032350858 div.yiv8032350858msonormal {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv8032350858 p.yiv8032350858msochpdefault, #yiv8032350858 li.yiv8032350858msochpdefault, #yiv8032350858 div.yiv8032350858msochpdefault {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv8032350858 span.yiv8032350858msohyperlink {}#yiv8032350858 span.yiv8032350858msohyperlinkfollowed {}#yiv8032350858 span.yiv8032350858emailstyle17 {}#yiv8032350858 p.yiv8032350858msonormal1, #yiv8032350858 li.yiv8032350858msonormal1, #yiv8032350858 div.yiv8032350858msonormal1 {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv8032350858 p.yiv8032350858msonormal2, #yiv8032350858 li.yiv8032350858msonormal2, #yiv8032350858 div.yiv8032350858msonormal2 {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv8032350858 span.yiv8032350858msohyperlink1 {color:#0563C1;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8032350858 span.yiv8032350858msohyperlinkfollowed1 {color:#954F72;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8032350858 span.yiv8032350858emailstyle171 {font-family:sans-serif;color:windowtext;}#yiv8032350858 p.yiv8032350858msochpdefault1, #yiv8032350858 li.yiv8032350858msochpdefault1, #yiv8032350858 div.yiv8032350858msochpdefault1 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv8032350858 span.yiv8032350858EmailStyle29 {font-family:sans-serif;color:windowtext;}#yiv8032350858 .yiv8032350858MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv8032350858 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv8032350858 div.yiv8032350858WordSection1 {}#yiv8032350858 Bill, For in-script variants IP asked we provide evidence of the variant relationship. Since the cases you are proposing do not fall in the homoglyph category, the panel must provide a strong reason for inclusion (e.g. Marshelle cases) Thanks, Dennis From:Latingp <latingp-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Bill Jouris <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> Reply-To: Bill Jouris <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> Date: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 at 11:54 PM To: "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants I've taken the liberty of adding a couple dozen additional candidates. (I held off the Rating 2 cases. These are the slam dunks.) I still think that, as discussed last week, we ought to include more cases rather than fewer. Especially when we are sending a draft to the IP for review -- that's when they can tell us if we have taken a wrong turn. Bill Jouris Inside Products bill.jouris@insidethestack.com 831-659-8360 925-855-9512 (direct) From: "Tan Tanaka, Dennis via Latingp" <latingp@icann.org> To: "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 7:43 PM Subject: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants Dear Latin GP, Here is the compilation of current in-script variant candidates for our review during tomorrow’s call. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bKKFHxbjgBd9CIPRiuOsej_3x670yTytUMM32Ou7... Talk to you all soon. Best, -Dennis _______________________________________________ Latingp mailing list Latingp@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/latingp
Interesting point of view re:Marshallese . Let’s bring it up when we get to review in-script variants. For the time being please provide evidence of your candidates. Thanks, Dennis From: Bill Jouris <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> Reply-To: Bill Jouris <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> Date: Thursday, August 23, 2018 at 3:05 PM To: Dennis Tan Tanaka <dtantanaka@verisign.com>, "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants As far as I can see, all of the Marshallese references are to justify exclusion. Not inclusion. What am I missing? Bill Jouris Inside Products bill.jouris@insidethestack.com 831-659-8360 925-855-9512 (direct) ________________________________ From: "Tan Tanaka, Dennis" <dtantanaka@verisign.com> To: "bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com>; "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2018 11:13 AM Subject: Re: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants Bill, For in-script variants IP asked we provide evidence of the variant relationship. Since the cases you are proposing do not fall in the homoglyph category, the panel must provide a strong reason for inclusion (e.g. Marshelle cases) Thanks, Dennis From: Latingp <latingp-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Bill Jouris <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> Reply-To: Bill Jouris <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> Date: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 at 11:54 PM To: "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants I've taken the liberty of adding a couple dozen additional candidates. (I held off the Rating 2 cases. These are the slam dunks.) I still think that, as discussed last week, we ought to include more cases rather than fewer. Especially when we are sending a draft to the IP for review -- that's when they can tell us if we have taken a wrong turn. Bill Jouris Inside Products bill.jouris@insidethestack.com 831-659-8360 925-855-9512 (direct) ________________________________ From: "Tan Tanaka, Dennis via Latingp" <latingp@icann.org> To: "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 7:43 PM Subject: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants Dear Latin GP, Here is the compilation of current in-script variant candidates for our review during tomorrow’s call. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bKKFHxbjgBd9CIPRiuOsej_3x670yTytUMM32Ou7... Talk to you all soon. Best, -Dennis _______________________________________________ Latingp mailing list Latingp@icann.org<mailto:Latingp@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/latingp
Briefly, these meet the definition in Procedure to Develop and Maintain the Label Generation Rules for the Root Zone in Respect of IDNA Labels: An IDN variant, as understood here, is an alternate code point (or sequence of code points) that could be substituted for a code point (or sequence of code points) in a candidate label to create a variant label that is considered the “same” in some measure by a given community of Internet users. Does that help? Bill Jouris Inside Products bill.jouris@insidethestack.com 831-659-8360 925-855-9512 (direct) From: "Tan Tanaka, Dennis" <dtantanaka@verisign.com> To: "bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com>; "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2018 12:23 PM Subject: Re: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants #yiv2433254869 #yiv2433254869 -- _filtered #yiv2433254869 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv2433254869 {font-family:DengXian;panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;} _filtered #yiv2433254869 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv2433254869 {panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;} _filtered #yiv2433254869 {panose-1:2 0 5 3 0 0 0 2 0 4;}#yiv2433254869 #yiv2433254869 p.yiv2433254869MsoNormal, #yiv2433254869 li.yiv2433254869MsoNormal, #yiv2433254869 div.yiv2433254869MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv2433254869 a:link, #yiv2433254869 span.yiv2433254869MsoHyperlink 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#yiv2433254869 div.yiv2433254869msochpdefault12 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv2433254869 span.yiv2433254869emailstyle291 {font-family:sans-serif;color:windowtext;}#yiv2433254869 span.yiv2433254869EmailStyle49 {font-family:sans-serif;color:windowtext;}#yiv2433254869 .yiv2433254869MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv2433254869 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv2433254869 div.yiv2433254869WordSection1 {}#yiv2433254869 Interesting point of view re:Marshallese . Let’s bring it up when we get to review in-script variants. For the time being please provide evidence of your candidates. Thanks, Dennis From:Bill Jouris <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> Reply-To: Bill Jouris <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> Date: Thursday, August 23, 2018 at 3:05 PM To: Dennis Tan Tanaka <dtantanaka@verisign.com>, "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants As far as I can see, all of the Marshallese references are to justify exclusion. Not inclusion. What am I missing? Bill Jouris Inside Products bill.jouris@insidethestack.com 831-659-8360 925-855-9512 (direct) From: "Tan Tanaka, Dennis" <dtantanaka@verisign.com> To: "bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com>; "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2018 11:13 AM Subject: Re: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants Bill, For in-script variants IP asked we provide evidence of the variant relationship. Since the cases you are proposing do not fall in the homoglyph category, the panel must provide a strong reason for inclusion (e.g. Marshelle cases) Thanks, Dennis From:Latingp <latingp-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Bill Jouris <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> Reply-To: Bill Jouris <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> Date: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 at 11:54 PM To: "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants I've taken the liberty of adding a couple dozen additional candidates. (I held off the Rating 2 cases. These are the slam dunks.) I still think that, as discussed last week, we ought to include more cases rather than fewer. Especially when we are sending a draft to the IP for review -- that's when they can tell us if we have taken a wrong turn. Bill Jouris Inside Products bill.jouris@insidethestack.com 831-659-8360 925-855-9512 (direct) From: "Tan Tanaka, Dennis via Latingp" <latingp@icann.org> To: "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 7:43 PM Subject: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants Dear Latin GP, Here is the compilation of current in-script variant candidates for our review during tomorrow’s call. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bKKFHxbjgBd9CIPRiuOsej_3x670yTytUMM32Ou7... Talk to you all soon. Best, -Dennis _______________________________________________ Latingp mailing list Latingp@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/latingp
Actually, no. The panel worked the definition of “same” during the Brussels meeting (you attended) and this is what we finalized<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IrT_kfildf1SumYUqjkaIkMT-TYx9IRqtuPMV4Yv...>: Within-script Variants * Homoglyphs: when any given pair of code points or code point sequences are visually identical as represented in a common use font (e.g., Arial, Times New Roman or Courier New) by internet applications, such as internet browsers. * Alternate Use: a pair of code points or sequence of code points that are regularly used interchangeably and are considered the same by the script users. -Dennis From: Bill Jouris <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> Reply-To: Bill Jouris <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> Date: Thursday, August 23, 2018 at 3:58 PM To: Dennis Tan Tanaka <dtantanaka@verisign.com>, "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants Briefly, these meet the definition in Procedure to Develop and Maintain the Label Generation Rules for the Root Zone in Respect of IDNA Labels: An IDN variant, as understood here, is an alternate code point (or sequence of code points) that could be substituted for a code point (or sequence of code points) in a candidate label to create a variant label that is considered the “same” in some measure by a given community of Internet users. Does that help? Bill Jouris Inside Products bill.jouris@insidethestack.com 831-659-8360 925-855-9512 (direct) ________________________________ From: "Tan Tanaka, Dennis" <dtantanaka@verisign.com> To: "bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com>; "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2018 12:23 PM Subject: Re: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants Interesting point of view re:Marshallese . Let’s bring it up when we get to review in-script variants. For the time being please provide evidence of your candidates. Thanks, Dennis From: Bill Jouris <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> Reply-To: Bill Jouris <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> Date: Thursday, August 23, 2018 at 3:05 PM To: Dennis Tan Tanaka <dtantanaka@verisign.com>, "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants As far as I can see, all of the Marshallese references are to justify exclusion. Not inclusion. What am I missing? Bill Jouris Inside Products bill.jouris@insidethestack.com 831-659-8360 925-855-9512 (direct) ________________________________ From: "Tan Tanaka, Dennis" <dtantanaka@verisign.com> To: "bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com>; "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2018 11:13 AM Subject: Re: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants Bill, For in-script variants IP asked we provide evidence of the variant relationship. Since the cases you are proposing do not fall in the homoglyph category, the panel must provide a strong reason for inclusion (e.g. Marshelle cases) Thanks, Dennis From: Latingp <latingp-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Bill Jouris <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> Reply-To: Bill Jouris <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> Date: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 at 11:54 PM To: "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants I've taken the liberty of adding a couple dozen additional candidates. (I held off the Rating 2 cases. These are the slam dunks.) I still think that, as discussed last week, we ought to include more cases rather than fewer. Especially when we are sending a draft to the IP for review -- that's when they can tell us if we have taken a wrong turn. Bill Jouris Inside Products bill.jouris@insidethestack.com 831-659-8360 925-855-9512 (direct) ________________________________ From: "Tan Tanaka, Dennis via Latingp" <latingp@icann.org> To: "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 7:43 PM Subject: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants Dear Latin GP, Here is the compilation of current in-script variant candidates for our review during tomorrow’s call. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bKKFHxbjgBd9CIPRiuOsej_3x670yTytUMM32Ou7... Talk to you all soon. Best, -Dennis _______________________________________________ Latingp mailing list Latingp@icann.org<mailto:Latingp@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/latingp
My recollection (by all means, someone correct me if I am mis-remembering) is that we agreed to that because YOU claimed that it was what the IP required of us. There appears to be in some doubt as to whether the IP actually does so. I note also that, in evaluating cross-script variants with Cyrillic, we have included multiple cases which are level 2: NOT homoglyphs. And you seemed to be fine with that. Bill Jouris Inside Products bill.jouris@insidethestack.com 831-659-8360 925-855-9512 (direct) From: "Tan Tanaka, Dennis" <dtantanaka@verisign.com> To: "bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com>; "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2018 1:50 PM Subject: Re: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants #yiv0145040812 #yiv0145040812 -- _filtered #yiv0145040812 {font-family:Wingdings;panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;} _filtered #yiv0145040812 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv0145040812 {font-family:DengXian;panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;} _filtered #yiv0145040812 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv0145040812 {panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;} _filtered #yiv0145040812 {panose-1:2 0 5 3 0 0 0 2 0 4;}#yiv0145040812 #yiv0145040812 p.yiv0145040812MsoNormal, #yiv0145040812 li.yiv0145040812MsoNormal, #yiv0145040812 div.yiv0145040812MsoNormal 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#yiv0145040812 {font-family:Wingdings;} _filtered #yiv0145040812 {font-family:Wingdings;} _filtered #yiv0145040812 {font-family:Wingdings;} _filtered #yiv0145040812 {font-family:Wingdings;} _filtered #yiv0145040812 {font-family:Wingdings;} _filtered #yiv0145040812 {font-family:Wingdings;}#yiv0145040812 ol {margin-bottom:0in;}#yiv0145040812 ul {margin-bottom:0in;}#yiv0145040812 Actually, no. The panel worked the definition of “same” during the Brussels meeting (you attended) and this is what wefinalized: Within-script Variants - Homoglyphs: when any given pair of code points or code point sequences are visually identical as represented in a common use font (e.g., Arial,Times New Roman orCourier New) by internet applications, such as internet browsers. - Alternate Use: a pair of code points or sequence of code points that are regularly used interchangeably and are considered the same by the script users. -Dennis From:Bill Jouris <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> Reply-To: Bill Jouris <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> Date: Thursday, August 23, 2018 at 3:58 PM To: Dennis Tan Tanaka <dtantanaka@verisign.com>, "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants Briefly, these meet the definition in Procedure to Develop and Maintain the Label Generation Rules for the Root Zone in Respect of IDNA Labels: An IDN variant, as understood here, is an alternate code point (or sequence of code points) that could be substituted for a code point (or sequence of code points) in a candidate label to create a variant label that is considered the “same” in some measure by a given community of Internet users. Does that help? Bill Jouris Inside Products bill.jouris@insidethestack.com 831-659-8360 925-855-9512 (direct) From: "Tan Tanaka, Dennis" <dtantanaka@verisign.com> To: "bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com>; "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2018 12:23 PM Subject: Re: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants Interesting point of view re:Marshallese . Let’s bring it up when we get to review in-script variants. For the time being please provide evidence of your candidates. Thanks, Dennis From:Bill Jouris <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> Reply-To: Bill Jouris <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> Date: Thursday, August 23, 2018 at 3:05 PM To: Dennis Tan Tanaka <dtantanaka@verisign.com>, "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants As far as I can see, all of the Marshallese references are to justify exclusion. Not inclusion. What am I missing? Bill Jouris Inside Products bill.jouris@insidethestack.com 831-659-8360 925-855-9512 (direct) From: "Tan Tanaka, Dennis" <dtantanaka@verisign.com> To: "bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com>; "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2018 11:13 AM Subject: Re: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants Bill, For in-script variants IP asked we provide evidence of the variant relationship. Since the cases you are proposing do not fall in the homoglyph category, the panel must provide a strong reason for inclusion (e.g. Marshelle cases) Thanks, Dennis From:Latingp <latingp-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Bill Jouris <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> Reply-To: Bill Jouris <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> Date: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 at 11:54 PM To: "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants I've taken the liberty of adding a couple dozen additional candidates. (I held off the Rating 2 cases. These are the slam dunks.) I still think that, as discussed last week, we ought to include more cases rather than fewer. Especially when we are sending a draft to the IP for review -- that's when they can tell us if we have taken a wrong turn. Bill Jouris Inside Products bill.jouris@insidethestack.com 831-659-8360 925-855-9512 (direct) From: "Tan Tanaka, Dennis via Latingp" <latingp@icann.org> To: "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 7:43 PM Subject: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants Dear Latin GP, Here is the compilation of current in-script variant candidates for our review during tomorrow’s call. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bKKFHxbjgBd9CIPRiuOsej_3x670yTytUMM32Ou7... Talk to you all soon. Best, -Dennis _______________________________________________ Latingp mailing list Latingp@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/latingp
I’m afraid I need to correct you. Not my claim, but what IP has provided to us both in writing and verbally. Mirjana and Mats attended the call as well. As far as the work on Cyrillic. The link must have not worked for you, so let me copy/paste the definition of “same” for cross-script: Cross-script Variants * Homoglyphs: the L-RZ-LGR will analyze variant relationships across related scripts, such as Cyrillic, Armenian and Greek. A Latin code point will be deemed a variant with a cross-script code point when the two code points or sequence of code point are visually identical or nearly identical when the difference can be attributed to different font styles. Our work is consistent with the agreed upon definition. So no surprise here. -Dennis From: Bill Jouris <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> Reply-To: Bill Jouris <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> Date: Thursday, August 23, 2018 at 5:02 PM To: Dennis Tan Tanaka <dtantanaka@verisign.com>, "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants My recollection (by all means, someone correct me if I am mis-remembering) is that we agreed to that because YOU claimed that it was what the IP required of us. There appears to be in some doubt as to whether the IP actually does so. I note also that, in evaluating cross-script variants with Cyrillic, we have included multiple cases which are level 2: NOT homoglyphs. And you seemed to be fine with that. Bill Jouris Inside Products bill.jouris@insidethestack.com 831-659-8360 925-855-9512 (direct) ________________________________ From: "Tan Tanaka, Dennis" <dtantanaka@verisign.com> To: "bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com>; "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2018 1:50 PM Subject: Re: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants Actually, no. The panel worked the definition of “same” during the Brussels meeting (you attended) and this is what we finalized<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IrT_kfildf1SumYUqjkaIkMT-TYx9IRqtuPMV4Yv...>: Within-script Variants · Homoglyphs: when any given pair of code points or code point sequences are visually identical as represented in a common use font (e.g., Arial, Times New Roman or Courier New) by internet applications, such as internet browsers. · Alternate Use: a pair of code points or sequence of code points that are regularly used interchangeably and are considered the same by the script users. -Dennis From: Bill Jouris <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> Reply-To: Bill Jouris <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> Date: Thursday, August 23, 2018 at 3:58 PM To: Dennis Tan Tanaka <dtantanaka@verisign.com>, "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants Briefly, these meet the definition in Procedure to Develop and Maintain the Label Generation Rules for the Root Zone in Respect of IDNA Labels: An IDN variant, as understood here, is an alternate code point (or sequence of code points) that could be substituted for a code point (or sequence of code points) in a candidate label to create a variant label that is considered the “same” in some measure by a given community of Internet users. Does that help? Bill Jouris Inside Products bill.jouris@insidethestack.com 831-659-8360 925-855-9512 (direct) ________________________________ From: "Tan Tanaka, Dennis" <dtantanaka@verisign.com> To: "bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com>; "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2018 12:23 PM Subject: Re: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants Interesting point of view re:Marshallese . Let’s bring it up when we get to review in-script variants. For the time being please provide evidence of your candidates. Thanks, Dennis From: Bill Jouris <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> Reply-To: Bill Jouris <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> Date: Thursday, August 23, 2018 at 3:05 PM To: Dennis Tan Tanaka <dtantanaka@verisign.com>, "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants As far as I can see, all of the Marshallese references are to justify exclusion. Not inclusion. What am I missing? Bill Jouris Inside Products bill.jouris@insidethestack.com 831-659-8360 925-855-9512 (direct) ________________________________ From: "Tan Tanaka, Dennis" <dtantanaka@verisign.com> To: "bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com>; "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2018 11:13 AM Subject: Re: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants Bill, For in-script variants IP asked we provide evidence of the variant relationship. Since the cases you are proposing do not fall in the homoglyph category, the panel must provide a strong reason for inclusion (e.g. Marshelle cases) Thanks, Dennis From: Latingp <latingp-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Bill Jouris <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> Reply-To: Bill Jouris <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> Date: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 at 11:54 PM To: "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants I've taken the liberty of adding a couple dozen additional candidates. (I held off the Rating 2 cases. These are the slam dunks.) I still think that, as discussed last week, we ought to include more cases rather than fewer. Especially when we are sending a draft to the IP for review -- that's when they can tell us if we have taken a wrong turn. Bill Jouris Inside Products bill.jouris@insidethestack.com 831-659-8360 925-855-9512 (direct) ________________________________ From: "Tan Tanaka, Dennis via Latingp" <latingp@icann.org> To: "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 7:43 PM Subject: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants Dear Latin GP, Here is the compilation of current in-script variant candidates for our review during tomorrow’s call. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bKKFHxbjgBd9CIPRiuOsej_3x670yTytUMM32Ou7... Talk to you all soon. Best, -Dennis _______________________________________________ Latingp mailing list Latingp@icann.org<mailto:Latingp@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/latingp
For my candidates, I would say that the differences between them are on the order of the differences between different fonts. Which is what you are trying to use as a criteria, right? I don't believe that these are ALL of the pairs which would meet even that criteria. But I think they constitute additional members. I would also ask, however, what are we trying to accomplish with the identification of variants? I submit that our goal is to make the Internet more usable for its user community. If two code points are indistinguishable, how does it help to insist that they are not variants? If the average user will not notice the difference, how does that help them? (I can see how it helps the bottom line of companies which make money registering domain names. After all, it means more defensive registrations. But that isn't of any particular benefit to the general Internet user community.) Bill Jouris Inside Products bill.jouris@insidethestack.com 831-659-8360 925-855-9512 (direct) From: "Tan Tanaka, Dennis" <dtantanaka@verisign.com> To: "bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com>; "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2018 12:23 PM Subject: Re: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants #yiv8883601175 #yiv8883601175 -- _filtered #yiv8883601175 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8883601175 {font-family:DengXian;panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;} _filtered #yiv8883601175 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8883601175 {panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;} _filtered #yiv8883601175 {panose-1:2 0 5 3 0 0 0 2 0 4;}#yiv8883601175 #yiv8883601175 p.yiv8883601175MsoNormal, #yiv8883601175 li.yiv8883601175MsoNormal, #yiv8883601175 div.yiv8883601175MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv8883601175 a:link, #yiv8883601175 span.yiv8883601175MsoHyperlink 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p.yiv8883601175msonormal21, #yiv8883601175 li.yiv8883601175msonormal21, #yiv8883601175 div.yiv8883601175msonormal21 {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv8883601175 p.yiv8883601175msonormal22, #yiv8883601175 li.yiv8883601175msonormal22, #yiv8883601175 div.yiv8883601175msonormal22 {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv8883601175 span.yiv8883601175msohyperlink11 {color:#0563C1;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8883601175 span.yiv8883601175msohyperlinkfollowed11 {color:#954F72;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8883601175 span.yiv8883601175emailstyle1711 {font-family:sans-serif;color:windowtext;}#yiv8883601175 p.yiv8883601175msochpdefault11, #yiv8883601175 li.yiv8883601175msochpdefault11, #yiv8883601175 div.yiv8883601175msochpdefault11 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv8883601175 p.yiv8883601175msochpdefault12, #yiv8883601175 li.yiv8883601175msochpdefault12, #yiv8883601175 div.yiv8883601175msochpdefault12 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv8883601175 span.yiv8883601175emailstyle291 {font-family:sans-serif;color:windowtext;}#yiv8883601175 span.yiv8883601175EmailStyle49 {font-family:sans-serif;color:windowtext;}#yiv8883601175 .yiv8883601175MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv8883601175 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv8883601175 div.yiv8883601175WordSection1 {}#yiv8883601175 Interesting point of view re:Marshallese . Let’s bring it up when we get to review in-script variants. For the time being please provide evidence of your candidates. Thanks, Dennis From:Bill Jouris <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> Reply-To: Bill Jouris <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> Date: Thursday, August 23, 2018 at 3:05 PM To: Dennis Tan Tanaka <dtantanaka@verisign.com>, "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants As far as I can see, all of the Marshallese references are to justify exclusion. Not inclusion. What am I missing? Bill Jouris Inside Products bill.jouris@insidethestack.com 831-659-8360 925-855-9512 (direct) From: "Tan Tanaka, Dennis" <dtantanaka@verisign.com> To: "bill.jouris@insidethestack.com" <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com>; "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2018 11:13 AM Subject: Re: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants Bill, For in-script variants IP asked we provide evidence of the variant relationship. Since the cases you are proposing do not fall in the homoglyph category, the panel must provide a strong reason for inclusion (e.g. Marshelle cases) Thanks, Dennis From:Latingp <latingp-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Bill Jouris <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> Reply-To: Bill Jouris <bill.jouris@insidethestack.com> Date: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 at 11:54 PM To: "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants I've taken the liberty of adding a couple dozen additional candidates. (I held off the Rating 2 cases. These are the slam dunks.) I still think that, as discussed last week, we ought to include more cases rather than fewer. Especially when we are sending a draft to the IP for review -- that's when they can tell us if we have taken a wrong turn. Bill Jouris Inside Products bill.jouris@insidethestack.com 831-659-8360 925-855-9512 (direct) From: "Tan Tanaka, Dennis via Latingp" <latingp@icann.org> To: "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 7:43 PM Subject: [Latingp] Draft in-script variants Dear Latin GP, Here is the compilation of current in-script variant candidates for our review during tomorrow’s call. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bKKFHxbjgBd9CIPRiuOsej_3x670yTytUMM32Ou7... Talk to you all soon. Best, -Dennis _______________________________________________ Latingp mailing list Latingp@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/latingp
participants (3)
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Bill Jouris -
Michael Bauland -
Tan Tanaka, Dennis