Hi all, The due diligence for Papergate has now come in. Its fairly thin. Here are the facts that I can see: 1. Papergate seems to be registered as a business but has not yet registered as a corporation so we have no proof of its actual existence; 2. The two web sites that they have are still under construction and have no information available; 3. We cannot get a copy of their bylaws to prove their mandate because they aren't incorporated yet; 4. As they are not yet incorporated, they have no members; and 5. We cannot prove anything in their application because of the complete lack of backup. So, we need to provide regional advice on whether to accept this group as an ALS. Apparently Danny Younger has had contact with Deby Morrow, President of Papergate and I would sure like to hear his take on this situation. I guess my major concern is fairness and transparency. When Danny Younger applied to become an ALS as an individual, he was turned down. How is this application any different? Should we be: 1. Accepting this application as an individual and accepting it on this basis; 2. Accepting this application as an ALS; or 3. Rejecting this application. This is what our region has to decide upon. Suggestions? Comments? HELP!!!!! D Darlene A. Thompson Community Access Program Administrator Nunavut Dept. of Education / N-CAP P.O. Box 1000, Station 910 Iqaluit, NU X0A 0H0 Phone: (867) 975-5631 Fax: (867) 975-5610 E-mail: dthompson@gov.nu.ca <mailto:dthompson@gov.nu.ca> ________________________________ From: At-Large Staff [mailto:staff@atlarge.icann.org] Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 5:03 AM To: Thompson, Darlene Cc: Evan Leibovitch; At-Large Staff Subject: Regional Advice for Papergate Dear Darlene, On January 20th, we received a North-American ALS application from Papergate, LLC. Please find the Due Diligence form attached. We kindly ask you to provide us with the regional advice for this application in your capacity as At-Large Secretariat for this region. Your advice will support the review of the At-Large Advisory Committee on this application. According to our timeline for ALS applications, the due date for the regional advice was March 10th. Because of the At-Large Summit preparations we were unable to process the application according to the agreed timeframe. We would appreciate it therefore if you could provide us with regional advise for this applicant within the next two weeks to ensure that the process suffers no further delays. We would like to remind you that the DD form could contain sensitive information. Please read it carefully before sending it off to third parties. Regards, Nick Ashton-Hart, Heidi Ullrich, Matthias Langenegger, Gisella Gruber-White, Marie-Helene Bouchoms ICANN At-Large Staff email: staff@atlarge.icann.org
Darlene wrote:
1. Papergate seems to be registered as a business but has not yet registered as a corporation so we have no proof of its actual existence;
At least in my jurisdiction, an unincorporated registration is little more than a legal alias. So we are indeed likely dealing with an individual and not (yet) a bonafide group.
I guess my major concern is fairness and transparency. When Danny Younger applied to become an ALS as an individual, he was turned down. How is this application any different? Should we be:
1. Accepting this application as an individual and accepting it on this basis; 2. Accepting this application as an ALS; or 3. Rejecting this application.
Choice (1) really isn't applicable, because no approval is required for someone to join as an individual. My first choice would be to suspend or defer approval until Papergate is incorporated and the appropriate demonstration of ALS eligibility can be validated. If deferral is not an option then IMO this application ought to be rejected, and resubmitted when Papergate is incorporated. - Evan
Yes, this is how I saw it, too. We don't want to completely discourage her but just because someone puts up a shell company doesn't mean automatic acceptance either. I think deferral is the best option - with direct encouragement to take part in the lists as an individual. Just my opinion, though, and I would sure like to hear from others. D Darlene A. Thompson Community Access Program Administrator Nunavut Dept. of Education / N-CAP P.O. Box 1000, Station 910 Iqaluit, NU X0A 0H0 Phone: (867) 975-5631 Fax: (867) 975-5610 E-mail: dthompson@gov.nu.ca -----Original Message----- From: Evan Leibovitch [mailto:evan@telly.org] Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 2:00 PM To: Thompson, Darlene Cc: na-discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [NA-Discuss] FW: Regional Advice for Papergate Darlene wrote:
1. Papergate seems to be registered as a business but has not yet registered as a corporation so we have no proof of its actual existence;
At least in my jurisdiction, an unincorporated registration is little more than a legal alias. So we are indeed likely dealing with an individual and not (yet) a bonafide group.
I guess my major concern is fairness and transparency. When Danny Younger applied to become an ALS as an individual, he was turned down. How is this application any different? Should we be:
1. Accepting this application as an individual and accepting it on this basis; 2. Accepting this application as an ALS; or 3. Rejecting this application.
Choice (1) really isn't applicable, because no approval is required for someone to join as an individual. My first choice would be to suspend or defer approval until Papergate is incorporated and the appropriate demonstration of ALS eligibility can be validated. If deferral is not an option then IMO this application ought to be rejected, and resubmitted when Papergate is incorporated. - Evan
Oh my, Nothing in my previous e-mail should be taken that I wasn't totally thrilled with your comments, Evan! I'm just trying to get others to respond, too! Sorry! D Darlene A. Thompson Community Access Program Administrator Nunavut Dept. of Education / N-CAP P.O. Box 1000, Station 910 Iqaluit, NU X0A 0H0 Phone: (867) 975-5631 Fax: (867) 975-5610 E-mail: dthompson@gov.nu.ca -----Original Message----- From: Evan Leibovitch [mailto:evan@telly.org] Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 2:00 PM To: Thompson, Darlene Cc: na-discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [NA-Discuss] FW: Regional Advice for Papergate Darlene wrote:
1. Papergate seems to be registered as a business but has not yet registered as a corporation so we have no proof of its actual existence;
At least in my jurisdiction, an unincorporated registration is little more than a legal alias. So we are indeed likely dealing with an individual and not (yet) a bonafide group.
I guess my major concern is fairness and transparency. When Danny Younger applied to become an ALS as an individual, he was turned down. How is this application any different? Should we be:
1. Accepting this application as an individual and accepting it on this basis; 2. Accepting this application as an ALS; or 3. Rejecting this application.
Choice (1) really isn't applicable, because no approval is required for someone to join as an individual. My first choice would be to suspend or defer approval until Papergate is incorporated and the appropriate demonstration of ALS eligibility can be validated. If deferral is not an option then IMO this application ought to be rejected, and resubmitted when Papergate is incorporated. - Evan
As Darlene said, incorporating but not having any viable organization is not particularly good either. I happen to be associated with a functioning, productive not-for-profit (far from the ICANN world) and I would hope that our not having incorporated (initial and ongoing cost just to high to justify) would not be held against us. Proof/demonstration of ongoing activities and membership is the key. I cannot remember whether there is a step in the process that allows us to ask for more information (and that stops the clock from ticking). Alan At 06/04/2009 01:59 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
Darlene wrote:
1. Papergate seems to be registered as a business but has not yet registered as a corporation so we have no proof of its actual existence;
At least in my jurisdiction, an unincorporated registration is little more than a legal alias. So we are indeed likely dealing with an individual and not (yet) a bonafide group.
I guess my major concern is fairness and transparency. When Danny Younger applied to become an ALS as an individual, he was turned down. How is this application any different? Should we be:
1. Accepting this application as an individual and accepting it on this basis; 2. Accepting this application as an ALS; or 3. Rejecting this application.
Choice (1) really isn't applicable, because no approval is required for someone to join as an individual.
My first choice would be to suspend or defer approval until Papergate is incorporated and the appropriate demonstration of ALS eligibility can be validated. If deferral is not an option then IMO this application ought to be rejected, and resubmitted when Papergate is incorporated.
- Evan
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There is no impediment to requesting further information; you can do it directly, the ALAC can, or either may request the staff to do it (but you'd need to tell us what you want us to ask of course). On 07/04/2009 03:58, "Alan Greenberg" <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> wrote: As Darlene said, incorporating but not having any viable organization is not particularly good either. I happen to be associated with a functioning, productive not-for-profit (far from the ICANN world) and I would hope that our not having incorporated (initial and ongoing cost just to high to justify) would not be held against us. Proof/demonstration of ongoing activities and membership is the key. I cannot remember whether there is a step in the process that allows us to ask for more information (and that stops the clock from ticking). Alan At 06/04/2009 01:59 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
Darlene wrote:
1. Papergate seems to be registered as a business but has not yet registered as a corporation so we have no proof of its actual existence;
At least in my jurisdiction, an unincorporated registration is little more than a legal alias. So we are indeed likely dealing with an individual and not (yet) a bonafide group.
I guess my major concern is fairness and transparency. When Danny Younger applied to become an ALS as an individual, he was turned down. How is this application any different? Should we be:
1. Accepting this application as an individual and accepting it on this basis; 2. Accepting this application as an ALS; or 3. Rejecting this application.
Choice (1) really isn't applicable, because no approval is required for someone to join as an individual.
My first choice would be to suspend or defer approval until Papergate is incorporated and the appropriate demonstration of ALS eligibility can be validated. If deferral is not an option then IMO this application ought to be rejected, and resubmitted when Papergate is incorporated.
- Evan
------ NA-Discuss mailing list NA-Discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org http://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/na-discuss_atlarge-lists.ica...
Visit the NARALO online at http://www.naralo.org ------
------ NA-Discuss mailing list NA-Discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org http://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/na-discuss_atlarge-lists.ica... Visit the NARALO online at http://www.naralo.org ------ -- Regards, Nick Ashton-Hart Director for At-Large Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN) Main Tel: +33 (450) 40 46 88 USA DD: +1 (310) 578-8637 Fax: +41 (22) 594-85-44 Mobile: +41 (79) 595 54-68 email: nick.ashton-hart@icann.org Win IM: ashtonhart@hotmail.com / AIM/iSight: nashtonhart@mac.com / Skype: nashtonhart Online Bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashtonhart
Hi Nick, Thank you so much for your prompt reply to this. Your previous e-mail seems to imply that you already know that this group DOES have members ("the accreditation process for ALSes which is currently in force would not allow an individual to be accredited as an ALS") but I do not see any proof of this in the DD. Please elaborate. I would echo Alan's sentiments below and want to have "proof/demonstration of on-going activities and membership." If you (staff) could clarify this matter, I think it might set our minds at ease. Thank you so much for your help! D Darlene A. Thompson Community Access Program Administrator Nunavut Dept. of Education / N-CAP P.O. Box 1000, Station 910 Iqaluit, NU X0A 0H0 Phone: (867) 975-5631 Fax: (867) 975-5610 E-mail: dthompson@gov.nu.ca -----Original Message----- From: na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] On Behalf Of Nick Ashton-Hart Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 9:17 AM To: Alan Greenberg; NA Discuss Subject: Re: [NA-Discuss] FW: Regional Advice for Papergate There is no impediment to requesting further information; you can do it directly, the ALAC can, or either may request the staff to do it (but you'd need to tell us what you want us to ask of course). On 07/04/2009 03:58, "Alan Greenberg" <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> wrote: As Darlene said, incorporating but not having any viable organization is not particularly good either. I happen to be associated with a functioning, productive not-for-profit (far from the ICANN world) and I would hope that our not having incorporated (initial and ongoing cost just to high to justify) would not be held against us. Proof/demonstration of ongoing activities and membership is the key. I cannot remember whether there is a step in the process that allows us to ask for more information (and that stops the clock from ticking). Alan At 06/04/2009 01:59 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
Darlene wrote:
1. Papergate seems to be registered as a business but has not yet registered as a corporation so we have no proof of its actual existence;
At least in my jurisdiction, an unincorporated registration is little more than a legal alias. So we are indeed likely dealing with an individual and not (yet) a bonafide group.
I guess my major concern is fairness and transparency. When Danny Younger applied to become an ALS as an individual, he was turned down. How is this application any different? Should we be:
1. Accepting this application as an individual and accepting it on this basis; 2. Accepting this application as an ALS; or 3. Rejecting this application.
Choice (1) really isn't applicable, because no approval is required for someone to join as an individual.
My first choice would be to suspend or defer approval until Papergate is incorporated and the appropriate demonstration of ALS eligibility can be validated. If deferral is not an option then IMO this application ought to be rejected, and resubmitted when Papergate is incorporated.
- Evan
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Visit the NARALO online at http://www.naralo.org ------
------ NA-Discuss mailing list NA-Discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org http://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/na-discuss_atlarge-lists .icann.org Visit the NARALO online at http://www.naralo.org ------ -- Regards, Nick Ashton-Hart Director for At-Large Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN) Main Tel: +33 (450) 40 46 88 USA DD: +1 (310) 578-8637 Fax: +41 (22) 594-85-44 Mobile: +41 (79) 595 54-68 email: nick.ashton-hart@icann.org Win IM: ashtonhart@hotmail.com / AIM/iSight: nashtonhart@mac.com / Skype: nashtonhart Online Bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashtonhart ------ NA-Discuss mailing list NA-Discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org http://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/na-discuss_atlarge-lists .icann.org Visit the NARALO online at http://www.naralo.org ------
Alan Greenberg wrote:
As Darlene said, incorporating but not having any viable organization is not particularly good either. I happen to be associated with a functioning, productive not-for-profit (far from the ICANN world) and I would hope that our not having incorporated (initial and ongoing cost just to high to justify) would not be held against us. Correct, and I erred by suggesting that an ALS might need to be incorporated. The ICANN rules regarding ALS accreditation explicitly make no requirement for legal corporate status.
Proof/demonstration of ongoing activities and membership is the key.
Absolutely agreed. - Evan
Hi all, I agree with the proposal to defer approval as Evan suggest. And if deferral is not an option, we should work on making it an option not to discourage newcomers to submit an application. Louis Houle Evan Leibovitch a écrit :
Darlene wrote:
1. Papergate seems to be registered as a business but has not yet registered as a corporation so we have no proof of its actual existence;
At least in my jurisdiction, an unincorporated registration is little more than a legal alias. So we are indeed likely dealing with an individual and not (yet) a bonafide group.
I guess my major concern is fairness and transparency. When Danny Younger applied to become an ALS as an individual, he was turned down. How is this application any different? Should we be:
1. Accepting this application as an individual and accepting it on this basis; 2. Accepting this application as an ALS; or 3. Rejecting this application.
Choice (1) really isn't applicable, because no approval is required for someone to join as an individual.
My first choice would be to suspend or defer approval until Papergate is incorporated and the appropriate demonstration of ALS eligibility can be validated. If deferral is not an option then IMO this application ought to be rejected, and resubmitted when Papergate is incorporated.
- Evan
------ NA-Discuss mailing list NA-Discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org http://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/na-discuss_atlarge-lists.ica...
Visit the NARALO online at http://www.naralo.org ------
In hopes that this might be helpful, the accreditation process for ALSes which is currently in force would not allow an individual to be accredited as an ALS, though as you all know there is plenty of ability for individuals to participate in all RALOs, and especially in NARALO. The existing criteria for evaluating applications is posted online and may be read in summary at http://www.atlarge.icann.org/en/framework.htm, with the detailed process available at http://www.atlarge.icann.org/files/atlarge/ALAC-2007-SD-2-Rev7%20ALS%20Appli... On 06/04/2009 19:49, "Darlene Thompson" <dthompson@gov.nu.ca> wrote: Hi all, The due diligence for Papergate has now come in. Its fairly thin. Here are the facts that I can see: 1. Papergate seems to be registered as a business but has not yet registered as a corporation so we have no proof of its actual existence; 2. The two web sites that they have are still under construction and have no information available; 3. We cannot get a copy of their bylaws to prove their mandate because they aren't incorporated yet; 4. As they are not yet incorporated, they have no members; and 5. We cannot prove anything in their application because of the complete lack of backup. So, we need to provide regional advice on whether to accept this group as an ALS. Apparently Danny Younger has had contact with Deby Morrow, President of Papergate and I would sure like to hear his take on this situation. I guess my major concern is fairness and transparency. When Danny Younger applied to become an ALS as an individual, he was turned down. How is this application any different? Should we be: 1. Accepting this application as an individual and accepting it on this basis; 2. Accepting this application as an ALS; or 3. Rejecting this application. This is what our region has to decide upon. Suggestions? Comments? HELP!!!!! D Darlene A. Thompson Community Access Program Administrator Nunavut Dept. of Education / N-CAP P.O. Box 1000, Station 910 Iqaluit, NU X0A 0H0 Phone: (867) 975-5631 Fax: (867) 975-5610 E-mail: dthompson@gov.nu.ca <mailto:dthompson@gov.nu.ca> ________________________________ From: At-Large Staff [mailto:staff@atlarge.icann.org] Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 5:03 AM To: Thompson, Darlene Cc: Evan Leibovitch; At-Large Staff Subject: Regional Advice for Papergate Dear Darlene, On January 20th, we received a North-American ALS application from Papergate, LLC. Please find the Due Diligence form attached. We kindly ask you to provide us with the regional advice for this application in your capacity as At-Large Secretariat for this region. Your advice will support the review of the At-Large Advisory Committee on this application. According to our timeline for ALS applications, the due date for the regional advice was March 10th. Because of the At-Large Summit preparations we were unable to process the application according to the agreed timeframe. We would appreciate it therefore if you could provide us with regional advise for this applicant within the next two weeks to ensure that the process suffers no further delays. We would like to remind you that the DD form could contain sensitive information. Please read it carefully before sending it off to third parties. Regards, Nick Ashton-Hart, Heidi Ullrich, Matthias Langenegger, Gisella Gruber-White, Marie-Helene Bouchoms ICANN At-Large Staff email: staff@atlarge.icann.org -- Regards, Nick Ashton-Hart Director for At-Large Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN) Main Tel: +33 (450) 40 46 88 USA DD: +1 (310) 578-8637 Fax: +41 (22) 594-85-44 Mobile: +41 (79) 595 54-68 email: nick.ashton-hart@icann.org Win IM: ashtonhart@hotmail.com / AIM/iSight: nashtonhart@mac.com / Skype: nashtonhart Online Bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashtonhart
participants (5)
-
Alan Greenberg -
Evan Leibovitch -
Louis Houle -
Nick Ashton-Hart -
Thompson, Darlene