Dear Greg and Vinay, I agree with Parminder and, based on the results, would humbly suggest a balanced approach with regards the two most preferable timing options: two meetings a month at 19 UTC and the two others at 13 UTC. As to the scoping document, I wonder to what extent it will differ from the WS1 report in terms of substance. This subgroup should work based on what has been agreed by the CCWG as a whole and that is the report we have put together last March. Wouldn't it make sense to have our first meeting next Monday, August 22nd, having the WS1 as a starting point? Thanks and regards, Secretário Pedro Ivo Ferraz da Silva Divisão da Sociedade da Informação (DI) Ministério das Relações Exteriores - Brasil T: + 55 61 2030-6609 Secretary Pedro Ivo Ferraz da Silva Division of Information Society (DI) Ministry of External Relations - Brazil T: + 55 61 2030-6609 -----Mensagem original----- De: ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org [mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org] Em nome de parminder Enviada em: quarta-feira, 17 de agosto de 2016 01:21 Para: ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org Assunto: Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] RES: Welcome to the WS2 Jurisdiction Subgroup! On Wednesday 17 August 2016 03:35 AM, Greg Shatan wrote: Pedro, Based on the Doodle Poll, the largest number of positive answers were for: * Meetings at 19:00 UTC * A single meeting time rather than a rotation, with the single meeting time at 19:00 UTC Greg 1900 UTC means it is past midnight for all those on the east of Iran, which is more than half the world's population. If that is the voting preference of most members that simply says that the group is too heavily west loaded... It will be a pity if by such a timing we cause further exclusions. I would say that apart from just a count of preferences other factors like plausibility for most of the world time zones must also be considered. I really think the second option best below, of 1300 UTC is what we should go for. It gives the most even spread across the world. thanks, parminder * Monday was the most popular day for a meeting, with Thursday a close second. Only Friday had a significantly lower number of positive answers (not surprising, since this gets into Friday evening and night for many participants, when hopefully we all have better things to do...). These preferences were consistent whether all answers were considered or only those of members. When only members' answers were considered, the above preferences were more pronounced. By far the lowest number of positive answers were for meetings at 05:00 UTC and for any rotation that included meetings at 05:00 UTC. I think we can discard those entirely in our consideration. There were a moderate number of positive answers for meetings at 13:00 UTC, but not very close to those for 19:00 UTC. There were also a moderate number of positive answers for a 13:00/19:00 rotation. I have not yet conferred with Vinay on this point, but based on these answers, the preferred choice would be to have all meetings at 19:00 UTC (and likely on Monday or Thursday). A potential alternative is to have one meeting a month at 13:00, and three at 19:00, roughly reflecting the weight of the preferences. Given the general preference, it seems fair to schedule the first meeting for 19:00 hours (day subject to review of the Master Calendar). In terms of timing, I have been reluctant to schedule our first meeting until the scoping document is available and some time has been allowed for members to review it. I believe it's important for this document to be the subject of discussion on our first call. In addition to scope itself, this would tend to influence our overall work plan. As of now, the scoping document has not yet been published. I will check with staff to get an ETA (it was supposed to be some time this week). If we have an ETA, then we can use that to schedule a first call, even before the document is actually available. As for the role of Observers on calls, I tend to agree that if they are on a call, they should be in listening/reading mode only. Observers will not receive call invitations, so it would be up to them to calendar those calls. It also appears that Observers would need to be on the "honor system"; there appears to be no technical way to put the Observers into listening/reading mode. (I will ask Staff to explore this further, as I believe I've been in Adobe Connect rooms where I could not post in the chat or open my microphone, and I've certainly been on listen-only conference calls. I guess the question is whether this can be done "granularly," allowing for both members and observers at the same time.) Greg On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 2:49 PM, Pedro Ivo Ferraz da Silva <pedro.ivo@itamaraty.gov.br> wrote: Dear Greg and Vinay, Do we have a decision with respect to how to move forward with the scheduling of the first meeting? Based on the answers from Bernard Turcotte, I would suggest we consider the doodle poll answers from subgroup members only. Given that anyone at any time can become a member, I would also say that observers should be able to join the calls in silent (just listening/reading) mode. Kind regards, Secretário Pedro Ivo Ferraz da Silva Divisão da Sociedade da Informação (DI) Ministério das Relações Exteriores - Brasil T: + 55 61 2030-6609 <tel:%2B%2055%2061%202030-6609> Secretary Pedro Ivo Ferraz da Silva Division of Information Society (DI) Ministry of External Relations - Brazil T: + 55 61 2030-6609 <tel:%2B%2055%2061%202030-6609> -----Mensagem original----- De: ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org <mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org <mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org> ] Em nome de Tijani BEN JEMAA Enviada em: domingo, 14 de agosto de 2016 03:35 Para: Edward Morris Cc: ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org Assunto: Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Welcome to the WS2 Jurisdiction Subgroup! Thanks Greg, I made the same search and found the same result. I subscribed to the Jurisdiction Sub-Group as an observer, but when you said that observers don't have to fill the doodle in, I immediately asked the staff to become member, and I'm now member. That's why I can post to the mailing list. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tijani BEN JEMAA Executive Director Mediterranean Federation of Internet Associations (FMAI) Phone: +216 98 330 114 <tel:%2B216%2098%20330%20114> +216 52 385 114 <tel:%2B216%2052%20385%20114> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Le 14 août 2016 à 01:52, Edward Morris <egmorris1@toast.net> a écrit : Thanks Greg. This is an issue popping up in multiple subgroups - thanks for taking the lead and getting an answer for all of us. Best, Ed Sent from my iPhone On 14 Aug 2016, at 01:03, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc@gmail.com> wrote: Based on this thread, it doesn't appear that there's a clear understanding of the role of "Observers" in Work Stream 2 Subgroups. The transcripts of the CCWG F2F in Helsinki and the next meeting after that don't shed any additional light on the matter. (There's no transcript for the most recent meeting yet.) The CCWG Wiki pages say that a Subgroup's Observers (1) don't "actively participate" in the subgroup and (2) won't have posting rights on the list. There's nothing specific about the Observers and the calls, but there's a note that anyone (not just Subgroup "Observers") can be a "silent observer" of any Subgroup call. Rather than speculating further, or exploring the formulations proposed on this thread (which I didn't see any support for in my review of CCWG materials) I will ask CCWG leadership and staff support to clarify the role of the Observers for all the Subgroups, including these specific points: 1. Will Observers get call invitations? 2. Can Observers join Adobe Connect and/or phone bridge for the call? 3. If yes, can Observers speak and/or write in the chat, or are they required to be silent/non-participating? 4. Do Observers receive the mailing list posts along with everyone else? 5. Will Observers have posting rights to the email list? I don't see any answers to these questions, except 5, and that's not quite settled, because Observers in this group have posted to this list. Let's see what we hear. Greg P.S. If you really want more detail on this, please see below.... I found the following information on CCWG wiki pages: 1. The wiki page for the Jurisdiction subgroup (https://community.icann.org/display/WEIA/Jurisdiction <https://community.icann.org/display/WEIA/Jurisdiction> <https://community.icann.org/display/WEIA/Jurisdiction <https://community.icann.org/display/WEIA/Jurisdiction> > ) says: Active Participants engage in the day-to-day discussions of the particular topic. Each active participant is expected to spend at least 3-5 hours per week on sub-group work and will have posting rights to the mailing list. Observers follow the topic discussion but not actively participate at the sub-group level. Observers are not expected to spend time on sub-group work and will not have posting rights to the mailing list. 2. The wiki page for WS2 plenary meetings (https://community.icann.org/display/WEIA/Meetings+-+WS2+Plenary <https://community.icann.org/display/WEIA/Meetings+-+WS2+Plenary> <https://community.icann.org/display/WEIA/Meetings+-+WS2+Plenary <https://community.icann.org/display/WEIA/Meetings+-+WS2+Plenary> > ) says: This Adobe Connect Room is open for Subgroup meetings to any and all silent observers: https://icann.adobeconnect.com/mssi-projects <https://icann.adobeconnect.com/mssi-projects> <https://icann.adobeconnect.com/mssi-projects <https://icann.adobeconnect.com/mssi-projects> > The exact meaning of "not actively participating" is not further explained. I have also noticed that people who are signed up as "Observers" have successfully posted to the list. So I don't think any of this information can lead to any absolute conclusions on the role of Observers in the Subgroups. In GNSO Working Groups, it is clear that Members receive call invitations (with Adobe Connect and dial-in info) and may log in and participate fully in those calls, and have rights to receive and post to the mailing list. On the other hand, it is clear that GNSO WG Observers do not receive the call invitations and do not have posting rights to the mailing list. As a rule, Observers do not attend the calls; if they want to follow the calls, they can use the recordings and transcripts. But the CCWG is not a GNSO WG, so these roles don't lead to absolute conclusions about Observers in the CCWG Subgroups either. On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 5:00 PM, Kavouss Arasteh <kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com <mailto:kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com> ');> > wrote: Jijani The concept of observer is clear The Person who participate at the meeting without the right to express any views without o the consent of the chair . He or she can not intervene more than once unless the lisse i directly touches his or her interest It shall noz eligible to vote 2016-08-13 20:06 GMT+02:00 Seun Ojedeji <seun.ojedeji@gmail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','seun.ojedeji@gmail.com <mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com> ');> >: As I am observer, this most likely would not reach the mailing list(which is right), what may not be accurate(which i also noted to Greg) is that observers are not restricted from joining the calls. They can indeed participate in the call if they so wish. So Tijani's understanding is somewhat how I understood this as well. Perhaps in the interest of saving funds, observers who wants to join the call may only use the AC and not receive special dialout. Regards Sent from my LG G4 Kindly excuse brevity and typos On 13 Aug 2016 18:51, "Tijani BEN JEMAA" <tijani.benjemaa@topnet.tn <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','tijani.benjemaa@topnet.tn <mailto:tijani.benjemaa@topnet.tn> ');> > wrote: Kavouss, There is no mention of « Observers » in the CCWG Charter. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tijani BEN JEMAA Executive Director Mediterranean Federation of Internet Associations (FMAI) Phone: +216 98 330 114 <tel:%2B216%2098%20330%20114> <tel:%2B216%2098%20330%20114> +216 52 385 114 <tel:%2B216%2052%20385%20114> <tel:%2B216%2052%20385%20114> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Le 13 août 2016 à 18:20, Kavouss Arasteh <kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com <mailto:kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com> ');> > a écrit : Tijani Peut être la définition se trouve dans notre Charter Salutations Kavouss 2016-08-13 19:07 GMT+02:00 Tijani BEN JEMAA <tijani.benjemaa@topnet.tn <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','tijani.benjemaa@topnet.tn <mailto:tijani.benjemaa@topnet.tn> ');> >: Bonsoir Alain, Je ne trouve pas de définition des observateurs pour les sous-groupes du WS 2. Maintenant, et d'une manière informelle, ils donnent aux observateurs le statut de « voyeurs » passifs. Au plaisir de te revoir à Hyderabad ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tijani BEN JEMAA Directeur Exécutif Fédération Méditerranéenne des associations d'Internet (FMAI) Phone: +216 98 330 114 <tel:%2B216%2098%20330%20114> <tel:%2B216%2098%20330%20114> +216 52 385 114 <tel:%2B216%2052%20385%20114> <tel:%2B216%2052%20385%20114> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Le 13 août 2016 à 00:18, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc@gmail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','gregshatanipc@gmail.com <mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com> ');> > a écrit : Thanks, Vinay! You are correct. The page where the roles are discussed is here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Iw5yn9GRk8RcnTJzclwB-JuSe3B6JugEj_0oGOCs... <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Iw5yn9GRk8RcnTJzclwB-JuSe3B6JugEj_0oGOCs...> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Iw5yn9GRk8RcnTJzclwB-JuSe3B6JugEj_0oGOCs... <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Iw5yn9GRk8RcnTJzclwB-JuSe3B6JugEj_0oGOCs...> > The document states that observers will not actively participate and will not have posting rights to the list. I believe the role of observers was also described on at least one of the CCWG calls, as well. Greg On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 5:31 AM, Vinay Kesari <vinay.kesari@gmail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','vinay.kesari@gmail.com <mailto:vinay.kesari@gmail.com> ');> > wrote: Hi Parminder, 1. People can check their status here: https://community.icann.org/display/WEIA/Jurisdiction <https://community.icann.org/display/WEIA/Jurisdiction> <https://community.icann.org/display/WEIA/Jurisdiction <https://community.icann.org/display/WEIA/Jurisdiction> > 2. Anyone can change their status from 'observer' to 'active participant' at any time. I believe the appropriate way would be to get in touch with staff at <acct-staff@icann.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','acct-staff@icann.org <mailto:acct-staff@icann.org> ');> > and simply request a change. You may perhaps be asked to fill out a Statement of Interest if you haven't already, but I don't think there are any other requirements. As far as you're concerned I think you're an active participant already. Happy to be corrected on all of this by anyone though. Regards, Vinay PS: Taking the liberty of responding since Greg will likely (hopefully?) be asleep at this point. :) On 12 August 2016 at 09:51, parminder <parminder@itforchange.net <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','parminder@itforchange.net <mailto:parminder@itforchange.net> ');> > wrote: On Friday 12 August 2016 02:19 AM, Greg Shatan wrote: All, I've been reviewing the results of the Doodle polls on call times, and I see that quite a number of votes came from "Observers." Thanks Greg. Two things; 1. How to know one's status? 2. Can one simply upgrade oneself from observer to member. best, parminder As I understand it, "Observers" do not get invited to the calls. If you want to participate in the calls, you will need to upgrade your status to "Member." I think we will need to find a way to discount the votes of Observers when considering the results, since their time constraints should not affect the outcome (because they won't be on the calls...) I appreciate the high level of compliance (another subgroup Rapporteur was concerned that their Doodle poll had zero responses), but I'm not sure why "Observers" voted at all. Please let me know if I'm missing something. Greg On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 3:12 PM, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc@gmail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','gregshatanipc@gmail.com <mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com> ');> > wrote: REMINDER: THE DOODLE POLLS WILL CLOSE TODAY, AUGUST 11, AT 23:59 UTC. PLEASE PARTICIPATE IF YOU HAVEN'T ALREADY DONE SO. THANK YOU. On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 6:21 PM, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc@gmail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','gregshatanipc@gmail.com <mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com> ');> > wrote: Dear Participants in the CCWG-Accountability WS2 Subgroup on Jurisdiction, I'm pleased to welcome you to the WS2 Jurisdiction Subgroup on behalf of myself and Vinay Kesari. Vinay and I are co-rapporteurs of this subgroup. We look forward to working with all of you. In order to get started we'll need to determine the best time or times to have Subgroup calls. The Subgroups can have meetings at 0500, 1300 and 1900 UTC. There are slots available on all days of the week (but not all slots are available on all days, since slots have already been taken by the CCWG and by other subgroups). Initially, we expect to have one 1-hour call each week. In order to determine when to have these calls, we have set up two Doodle polls: 1. Best time(s) of day for you. IMPORTANT NOTES: This is a day and time poll only, for the ongoing work of this group. Please ignore the specific dates next week. (For your convenience, times are shown in your time zone, not UTC.) LINK TO DOODLE POLL: http://doodle.com/poll/i9g3gmehaa6muhgr <http://doodle.com/poll/i9g3gmehaa6muhgr> <http://doodle.com/poll/i9g3gmehaa6muhgr <http://doodle.com/poll/i9g3gmehaa6muhgr> > 2. Rotation vs. fixed time. LINK TO DOODLE POLL: http://doodle.com/poll/2ypry3gfgzq4h62b <http://doodle.com/poll/2ypry3gfgzq4h62b> <http://doodle.com/poll/2ypry3gfgzq4h62b <http://doodle.com/poll/2ypry3gfgzq4h62b> > Please respond by 23:59 UTC on Thursday, August 11, so that we can get our process underway. 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