What attitude if I may ask? We have to be very careful with comments on matters of this nature. Is it the attitude of people that would require applicants for a common visa to travel across borders to other countries? It is not only insulting but dehumanising for Canada to disrespect Africans with this racist diplomacy. People with valid USA and European visas to be told they cannot leave Canada after the event. What is in Canada. We need open up an online protest for signatures demanding Canada respects Cross borders'foreign relations! On Fri, 25 Oct 2019, 21:28 Sonigitu Ekpe, <soekpe@gmail.com> wrote:

In fact, I just wrote to the embassy to return my passport as I do need it to apply for other visa to enable me attend line-up meetings in November as I am not sure of having a decision before the next five days after reapplying.

It is really an insult.

Anyway it's the attitude of many, that had caused all these embarrassment.

However, they contributed to it all!

Sonigitu Ekpe Environmental Governance Consultant

+234 803 399 2350

On Fri, 25 Oct 2019, 20:40 Sergio Salinas Porto, < presidencia@internauta.org.ar> wrote:

...

Dear friends, many of our partners, like our brothers in Africa, have fallen into disgrace that their visa has been denied, this is not only frustrating but also that puts our ATLAS in a difficult citation. I don't know why we chose a place to do an ATLAS where crossing the border of that country (Canada) is similar to obtaining a prize for belonging to a select minority. But now we are dancing so in the middle of this dance I ask Is there anyone who can do something so that our partners can travel to Montreal in just six (6) days? So far we have these people in complicated situations: Harold Arches Antonio Medina Gomez Vrikson Iván Acosta Velásquez KInd Regards

*Sergio Salinas Porto**Presidente Internauta Argentina - LACRALO/ICANN <https://atlarge.icann.org/ralos/lacralo>**Asociación Argentina de Usuarios de Internet <http://www.internauta.org.ar/>/FeTIA <http://www.fetia.org.ar/>**FUILAC- Federación de Usuarios de Internet de LAC <https://fuilac.org>**facebook: salinasporto <http://www.facebook.com/salinasporto> **twitter: sergiosalinas <http://twitter.com/sergiosalinas>**Mobi:+54 9 223 5 215819**"Ojalá podamos ser desobedientes, cada vez que recibimos órdenes que humillan nuestra *

* conciencia o violan nuestro sentido común" Eduardo Galeano*

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Cause and effect attitude. Who stimulated inequality, suppression that has risen to the fear of the unknown? If the various regions of the World were allowed with all the different ethic groupings to develop freely, without interference by others, or forcefully imposing what ever ideology, in subduing them to manage or extract their resources for the betterment of their countries, while impoverishing/promoting conflicts within the resourced rich countries to enable them continue to have control... All this wouldn't have been the case! So today, they leach out insults upon all the injuries they caused us, even after many conventions to heal the wounds. Today Canada is heaven, so others are not qualified and they pretend to do a kind of selective issuance just to consider them as not racist in the face of the Global Community. Sonigitu Ekpe Environmental Governance Consultant +234 803 399 2350

Dear, when it was defined that ATLAS II would be carried out in Canada, I did a quick check on the conditions to obtain the visa. I saw that it was a long, cumbersome process, that asked for a lot of personal data, that asked for bank account details, and some other things. Also, the procedure, depending on the applicant's location, could be done online and completed personally, which was impossible for many of us. And that the agencies that processed the visa without one moving from their home were expensive and impossible to pay for some of us. When the list is confirmed, I notified in the Skype At-Large Community list (it is in the list that most participate), in the WhatsApp group of LACRALO, and I also send an email to Maureen, warning about all those details , suggesting that they begin their procedure as soon as possible. Now, I ask you to read carefully what Evan expressed. And find out the causes for which there are bounced paperwork. There are bounced procedures, which were then presented on second occasion and approved. That there are several people from the same country with granted visas, and only one from that country with a visa denied. Best regards Alberto Soto De: At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> en nombre de Sergio Salinas Porto <presidencia@internauta.org.ar> Fecha: sábado, 26 de octubre de 2019, 06:30 Para: Sonigitu Ekpe <soekpe@gmail.com> CC: At-Large Worldwide <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Asunto: Re: [At-Large] The visa to Canada and fall of participation of LAC in ATLAS III I applaud standing before your words dear companion Sonigitu Regards Sergio Salinas Porto Presidente Internauta Argentina - LACRALO/ICANN Asociación Argentina de Usuarios de Internet/FeTIA FUILAC- Federación de Usuarios de Internet de LAC facebook: salinasporto twitter: sergiosalinas Mobi:+54 9 223 5 215819 "Ojalá podamos ser desobedientes, cada vez que recibimos órdenes que humillan nuestra conciencia o violan nuestro sentido común" Eduardo Galeano Mostrar texto citado El sáb., 26 oct. 2019 01:46, Sonigitu Ekpe <soekpe@gmail.com> escribió: Cause and effect attitude. Who stimulated inequality, suppression that has risen to the fear of the unknown? If the various regions of the World were allowed with all the different ethic groupings to develop freely, without interference by others, or forcefully imposing what ever ideology, in subduing them to manage or extract their resources for the betterment of their countries, while impoverishing/promoting conflicts within the resourced rich countries to enable them continue to have control... All this wouldn't have been the case! So today, they leach out insults upon all the injuries they caused us, even after many conventions to heal the wounds. Today Canada is heaven, so others are not qualified and they pretend to do a kind of selective issuance just to consider them as not racist in the face of the Global Community. Sonigitu Ekpe Environmental Governance Consultant +234 803 399 2350 _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.

On 26-10-19 16:41, Peters Omoragbon wrote:

I felt there was no need for me to respond to Evan, s contribution because it made no value to the issue on hand. Seems you actually are responding, but without actually addressing his points.

If half of 60 selected delegates are absent because of institutionalised selective racial bias coloured in administrative bottlenecks, of what impact would the program have? 

Evan pointed out that the cause might not be racial bias. I think it would help to be fact-based instead of resorting to pure rhetoric and accusations based on assumptions. Julf

I am not currently a leader in charge of ICANN or my Ralo. Despite this I gave a very early warning about this problem. Leaders cannot ask what problem they have with the visa, one week before the trip. Best Alberto De: At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> en nombre de Peters Omoragbon <petersomoragbon@gmail.com> Fecha: sábado, 26 de octubre de 2019, 13:37 Para: Johan Helsingius <julf@julf.com> CC: <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Asunto: Re: [At-Large] The visa to Canada and fall of participation of LAC in ATLAS III The fact is that most of us will not be present at the meeting. So what is your role in making sure we all attend the meeting. Its not a debate. Address that FACT On Sat, 26 Oct 2019, 16:56 Johan Helsingius, <julf@julf.com> wrote: On 26-10-19 16:41, Peters Omoragbon wrote:

I felt there was no need for me to respond to Evan, s contribution because it made no value to the issue on hand. Seems you actually are responding, but without actually addressing his points.

If half of 60 selected delegates are absent because of institutionalised selective racial bias coloured in administrative bottlenecks, of what impact would the program have?

Evan pointed out that the cause might not be racial bias. I think it would help to be fact-based instead of resorting to pure rhetoric and accusations based on assumptions. Julf _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.

On 26-10-19 18:29, Peters Omoragbon wrote:

The fact is that most of us will not be present at the meeting.

Maybe you can help me understand who the "us" are in this case? Julf

On 27-10-19 12:25, peters omoragbon wrote:

And what way will that help you to solve the current problem? 

The first step in solving a problem is understanding it. Julf

On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 at 14:44, Peters Omoragbon <petersomoragbon@gmail.com> wrote:

So do you now understand the problem or not

I'm still awaiting the details of the online protest you want to start. I need to know your definition of the problem so I can determine the extent of my understanding. So far as I can tell based on the evidence at hand in this thread: - ICANN did not warn its travellers about the complexity (for some) of getting a Canadian visa, and did not provide adequate support to those with obstacles - The Canadian visa process for some countries, driven by experience of fraudulent applications in the past, can be insulting and dehumanizing for legitimate travellers - Some people call things racist without evidence, adding heat without light - Evan

Le dim. 27 oct. 2019 à 20:05, Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org> a écrit :

On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 at 14:44, Peters Omoragbon <petersomoragbon@gmail.com> wrote:

...

So do you now understand the problem or not

I'm still awaiting the details of the online protest you want to start. I need to know your definition of the problem so I can determine the extent of my understanding.

So far as I can tell based on the evidence at hand in this thread:

- ICANN did not warn its travellers about the complexity (for some) of getting a Canadian visa, and did not provide adequate support to those with obstacles

- The Canadian visa process for some countries, driven by experience of fraudulent applications in the past, can be insulting and dehumanizing for legitimate travellers

Certains Canadiens et/ou occidentaux sont aussi en situation irrégulière ou par fraude dans certains pays africains. Notre souhait est que l'organisation des réunions de l'ICANN puisse se passer dans le RESPECT MUTUEL DES PEUPLES.

- - Some people call things racist without evidence, adding heat without light

- Evan _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large

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Evans, Please with due respect, I totally disagree with some of the views you are raising here. Its simple, if the Canadians are observing some issues based on the TRV, then issue single entry with maximum of 8 - 10 days and ensure you do not grant any request! They put policy to support their needs and desires, you can also amend such policy. As I had earlier said, Canada is not heaven. They are all manipulating us and our resources to their benefits. They took so much benefit and now they are feeling like gods. You do not have any reason to explain or defend this stupid actions to insult other nationals for any reason. When amendments and enforcement can solve the excuses. In short I am sick and tried of the situation. Let the Canadians giveback my Travel documents which I submitted since September 12, and keep their visa. I accept the expense as a loss, while I see the embassy exploiting us. They should have asked us to respond to their query rather than ask for reapplication. Yes, the ATLAS III is going to contribute to personal development and support my Country in aspiring to key into the Digital Economy as a result of the knowledge that would have been gained through my participation. However, I just need my passport back! I am really very offended because, I have already spent $600 for this so call visa. My round flight tickets for Abuja, hotel accommodation and the visa / biometric fees/ reapplication fee. Sonigitu Ekpe Environmental Governance Consultant +234 803 399 2350 On Sun, 27 Oct 2019, 19:44 Peters Omoragbon, <petersomoragbon@gmail.com> wrote:

So do you now understand the problem or not

On Sun, 27 Oct 2019, 15:22 Johan Helsingius, <julf@julf.com> wrote:

...

On 27-10-19 12:25, peters omoragbon wrote:

...

And what way will that help you to solve the current problem?

The first step in solving a problem is understanding it.

Julf

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@Sergio, thank you for bringing this up.  Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sun, Oct 27, 2019 at 19:45, Peters Omoragbon<petersomoragbon@gmail.com> wrote: _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.

+1 Evan IMHO, there are two ways to deal with issues: the first one, is to analyse the problem and to try to understand it in detail, the second one is to jump to conclusions and scream bloody murder. While you are never sure to be able to solve the problem taking the former approach, you are damn sure that taking the latter might get you brownie points but will not get you one single inch forward. Last but not least, there is some fundamental racism in accusing others of being racist not based on facts but only on presumption of behaviour, in particular when these presumptions go against the evidence. And now, open for flames, R. On 26.10.2019, at 11:14, Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org<mailto:evan@telly.org>> wrote: On Fri, 25 Oct 2019 at 19:26, Peters Omoragbon <petersomoragbon@gmail.com<mailto:petersomoragbon@gmail.com>> wrote: It is not only insulting but dehumanising for Canada to disrespect Africans with this racist diplomacy. It's my understanding, from my own attempts to intervene on behalf of people needing visas for events in which I have been involved, that the problem is not racial so much as country-specific. The overly harsh measures stem from significant numbers of people from specific countries coming on tourist or conference visas who never go home and then apply for Canadian immigrant status from inside the country. This is widely seen domestically as "queue-jumping" and unfair to the conventional immigration process. As a result, tourist or conference applications from these designated countries are checked against a number of criteria that indicate the likeliness of a traveller to return home after the trip. I'm not an expert in this and I don't fully agree with the policies so I won't defend them, but to the best of my awareness this is the rationale. Not all of the countries flagged this way are in Africa (as Sergio noted in the start of this thread); the list changes periodically based on the sources of the "queue jumpers". So I'm not sure that the policy is racist, or that calling it racist is actually going to accomplish anything useful. I fully understand the insult and that it's dehumanizing, and the issue is highly political within Canada. However, attributing sinister motivation that isn't in evidence will not get you far. People with valid USA and European visas to be told they cannot leave Canada after the event. OK, that's just a complete untruth. Unlike many countries, Canada doesn't even do passport checks for departures. Whether any other country will allow travellers in is a different story, but in my many years of age I'm not aware of any foreigner denied the ability to leave Canada unless charged with a crime. The biggest problem that I have encountered is that the visa application process needs to be started WAY in advance. Many are improperly rejected. An review/appeal process exists, but it doesn't happen quickly and sometimes people just run out of time. Having a good Canadian host to help with visa issues is important. What is in Canada. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/canada The visa problem wouldn't exist if nobody wanted to move here. We need open up an online protest for signatures demanding Canada respects Cross borders'foreign relations! I have no idea what you're asking for. Please be specific on what relations need to be respected that are not now. - Evan _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.

Fully agreed with Nadira's suggestion in this regard. Regards/ Jahangir On Sun, Oct 27, 2019 at 11:26 AM Nadira Alaraj <nadira.araj@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear All, My heart goes with all those whom visas were declined. What makes it more bitter that your country fellow traveller did get a visa travelling to the same event.

I know the agony, time consuming and the cost you all go through because I myself must go through this every single travel - only less than handful of countries grant me visa upon arrival. Not to mention the cost, extra travel days and humiliation I go through to land borders crossing to travel from neighbouring country because we're not allowed to travel from where we live.

One country that I applied to their visa in Laten America required me to provide an endorsed government document from the court proofs that I'm clear from any criminal records.

The lengthy travelling visa application experience taught me to look at the positive side of the issue. What I do see in the case of all those Canadian visa applicants were declined that they do have the qualifications to be a candidate immigrants -given the assumption that their visa application and supporting documents are fully fulfilled.

My advise to any future visa applicants to countries with reputation of declining visas to provide extra supporting documents to proof that they are deeply rooted in your countries and they have no intentions to immigrate. Providing bank account statement, a letter from employer, is not enough, they need to provide other documents even it is not listed as required. Examples, ownership of an assets, membership of local bodies/chapters that are globally acknowledged such as a member of chamber of commerce, Rotary, etc.

I'm not defending Canada, but condemning the global international political system that makes each country has its own rules to defend its sovereignty.

Wishing those whom visas declined this time never have this experience again.

Nadira

On Sun, Oct 27, 2019, 01:27 Roberto Gaetano <roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote:

...

+1 Evan

IMHO, there are two ways to deal with issues: the first one, is to analyse the problem and to try to understand it in detail, the second one is to jump to conclusions and scream bloody murder. While you are never sure to be able to solve the problem taking the former approach, you are damn sure that taking the latter might get you brownie points but will not get you one single inch forward.

Last but not least, there is some fundamental racism in accusing others of being racist not based on facts but only on presumption of behaviour, in particular when these presumptions go against the evidence.

And now, open for flames, R.

On 26.10.2019, at 11:14, Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org> wrote:

On Fri, 25 Oct 2019 at 19:26, Peters Omoragbon <petersomoragbon@gmail.com> wrote:

...

It is not only insulting but dehumanising for Canada to disrespect Africans with this racist diplomacy.

It's my understanding, from my own attempts to intervene on behalf of people needing visas for events in which I have been involved, that the problem is not racial so much as country-specific. The overly harsh measures stem from significant numbers of people from specific countries coming on tourist or conference visas who never go home and then apply for Canadian immigrant status from inside the country. This is widely seen domestically as "queue-jumping" and unfair to the conventional immigration process. As a result, tourist or conference applications from these designated countries are checked against a number of criteria that indicate the likeliness of a traveller to return home after the trip. I'm not an expert in this and I don't fully agree with the policies so I won't defend them, but to the best of my awareness this is the rationale.

Not all of the countries flagged this way are in Africa (as Sergio noted in the start of this thread); the list changes periodically based on the sources of the "queue jumpers". So I'm not sure that the policy is racist, or that calling it racist is actually going to accomplish anything useful. I fully understand the insult and that it's dehumanizing, and the issue is highly political within Canada. However, attributing sinister motivation that isn't in evidence will not get you far.

People with valid USA and European visas to be told they cannot leave

...

Canada after the event.

OK, that's just a complete untruth. Unlike many countries, Canada doesn't even do passport checks for departures. Whether any other country will allow travellers in is a different story, but in my many years of age I'm not aware of any foreigner denied the ability to leave Canada unless charged with a crime.

The biggest problem that I have encountered is that the visa application process needs to be started WAY in advance. Many are improperly rejected. An review/appeal process exists, but it doesn't happen quickly and sometimes people just run out of time. Having a good Canadian host to help with visa issues is important.

What is in Canada.

...

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/canada

The visa problem wouldn't exist if nobody wanted to move here.

We need open up an online protest for signatures demanding Canada

...

respects Cross borders'foreign relations!

I have no idea what you're asking for. Please be specific on what relations need to be respected that are not now. - Evan

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On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 at 01:26, Nadira Alaraj <nadira.araj@gmail.com> wrote:

What I do see in the case of all those Canadian visa applicants were declined that they do have the qualifications to be a candidate immigrants -given the assumption that their visa application and supporting documents are fully fulfilled.

I'll politely disagree. The approval process for tourist and conference visas and the associated criteria, in most countries, is very different from applying for work, resident or even student visas. Criteria for conventional immigration can be factors such as "do you possess skills that are in demand here", "do you have an offer of work/study", "are you willing to locate in areas that need population growth" etc. There is even a point system <https://www.onthemovetoronto.com/canada-immigration-points/> used to evaluate suitability. Rules are different for UNHCR-status refugees. In contrast, the primary criteria for tourist or conference visas (again, from selected countries) is "are you likely to return home after the conference, or are you seeking to forfeit the return leg of your travel and try to remain in Canada". Based on past experiences, those planning to stay long-term after entering using a short-term visa tended not to be truthful in their applications, leading now to case-by-case evaluations and arbitrary judgments biased towards denial. As one example: having immediate family already in Canada, a positive factor for long-term immigration, is a negative factor for a conference visa (officials may believe that you have incentive to join that family and not return home after the conference is over). This is why there are often humiliating demands made, such as intimate details of employment, or how many assets or family do you have at home (based on the assumption: the more you have at home, the less likely you are to abandon it by remaining in Canada). Again, I am neither endorsing nor defending this, and the processes above are highly controversial inside Canada. (Indeed, as some of you may know we just concluded an election in which immigration was a significant campaign issue.) I am simply trying to explain the rationale given to me when I'd intervened earlier this year on behalf of two people denied visas to attend a different conference that I was involved with. We were close to a successful appeal but we ran out of time; they'd waited too long to start the process. My advise to any future visa applicants to countries with reputation of

declining visas to provide extra supporting documents to proof that they are deeply rooted in your countries and they have no intentions to immigrate. Providing bank account statement, a letter from employer, is not enough, they need to provide other documents even it is not listed as required. Examples, ownership of an assets, membership of local bodies/chapters that are globally acknowledged such as a member of chamber of commerce, Rotary, etc.

Agreed. It helps if you understand the motives for denial and are ready to address them up front. It also helps if there is someone local to assist, advocate and launch appeals from within Canada. An explanation such as what I gave above SHOULD have been provided by Constituency Travel as soon as the venue and travellers were known. It's been a while but I recall that ICANN and their travel contractors were usually pretty good about this kind of thing. Or maybe I'm thinking too far back, when cities bid for ICANN meeting locations like they were the Olympics, so the venue has a well-established local organizer with a wealth of this kind of knowledge. In any case, this kind of service needs to be provided well, and not just for Canada. If you're from the "wrong" place even Schengen can be a nightmare. Wishing those whom visas declined this time never have this experience

again.

The best, the only real advice I can offer is: DO NOT PROCRASTINATE. Apply as soon as your attendance is confirmed. And ensure that your host has a partner/agent with local knowledge, able to assist, - Evan

I note it was Evan's message you were commenting on, not mine. You never replied to mine. Alan -- Sent from my mobile. Please excuse brevity and typos. On October 27, 2019 7:23:32 AM EDT, peters omoragbon <petersomoragbon@gmail.com> wrote: Hello Alan. Responding from your last paragraph : What has procrastination got to do with applying for visa early when ICANN has to first of all put in place the needed documents and information to support any application. So, the problem is not from the applicant but the organizers who should know better. This goes to your correct observation about ICANN travel not doing enough due diligence in this matter before now. I attend international conferences especially as a United Nations Permanent Rep and A UNFCCC Designated Contact person. What the organizers do is to agree on a code with the host country foreign affairs ministry for ACCREDITED Delegates. With this, they re exempted mostly from the stringent requirements for ordinary applicants. Icann has been doing this now for over 70 times and should have by now known how to navigate this bureaucracy. What I still find very insulting from Canada is to allude that all applicants from selected countries are potential immigrants when these applicants have shown clear evidence of having been to the USA and Europe without migrating! I asked what is so special about Canada? Finally, Alan I could suspect you are a Canadian from your position so far. With your insider knowledge and experience, and considering how deep rooted you are in ICANN why did you not form part of the local host to help avert these unnecessary hoola baloo? Instead of trying to challenge my frustration with the system of Canada, I expect you to proffer workable solution and support for those having visa problems. Why must I try to impress Canada with ALL I have got to demonstrate I will return? If I want to stay, that will not prevent me from staying back. Afterall I won't forfeit my assets to Canada if I refuse to leave. That is why their reasons make no sense to me. Best Pastor Peters Omoragbon Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android<https://go.onelink.me/107872968?pid=InProduct&c=Global_Internal_YGrowth_Andr...> On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 at 9:56, Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org> wrote: _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.

Dear all, I think issues of visa will continue to be in the front burner of challenges of holding face 2 face meetings and while I do not think it's necessary to remind ourselves that every country reserves the right to grant or reject a visa application neither will it be helpful to give a general term to a country's decision, but it is absolutely fine for us to develop an individual opinion which will be based on our individual experience and these are normally not the same in this context. That said, it's up to Atlarge/ICANN to consider whether the meetings are truly open to all if certain country border requirements and processes can be so exhausting. While I have read through various experience sharing of those who got denied and got granted visa after trying again, none of them suggest that it happened due to any action of the meeting organisers/local host. However in certain previous ICANN meetings the intervention of local host was quite evident. As one who went through the Visa application process, I will say that issue of getting granted or denied visa is just one aspect, the time it takes to even get a decision is another major issue. IMO those who may not physically attend the meeting will be affected more by the latter and this is not because they applied late, it is just how complicated the application review process of Canada can be. It is in such situation that interventions of local host makes a difference and it is not entirely clear to me how much impact the local host played on this particular one as it's not evident [1]. I hope that this will be read in a positive sense of things as my intention is not to blame the local host as they may have indeed done their best (within their limit) but this is to serve as a feedback on the importance of considering the type of host and her commitment thereof when determining where next to take the most important of the 3 annual ICANN meetings. I wish everyone attending the event a safe journey and yes I hope some of us originally scheduled to attend will try to make good use of remote participation. Do have a wonderful meeting experience as usual. Regards 1. This is a personal opinion based on my experience. Sent from my mobile Kindly excuse brevity and typos On Sun, 27 Oct 2019, 15:25 Johan Helsingius, <julf@julf.com> wrote:

On 27-10-19 12:23, peters omoragbon wrote:

...

I attend international conferences especially as a United Nations Permanent Rep and A UNFCCC Designated Contact person. What the organizers do is to agree on a code with the host country foreign affairs ministry for ACCREDITED Delegates.

Unlike the UN, ICANN is a multistakeholder organisation, and ICANN meetings are open to anyone, not just accredited participants.

Julf

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If there is indeed a genuine search for solutions.... The most obvious answer for years has been to not require anyone to have to physically travel, and to have Summits which by-design are meant to be held virtually. Not only does this eliminate visa problems completely, but it also vastly reduces logistical challenges for both organizer and participant: - No lost luggage - No health insurance issues - No missed flights - No hotel booking problems - No currency-exchange issues - No issues with airport-to-hotel transportation Having a virtual Summit also reduces the travel and settling-in time (making more time available for meetings) and eliminates delegates' burning fossil fuels to congregate in one place. More importantly, it also means that expenses are drastically reduced, so organizers don't have to go through an arduous task of determining who can or cannot be funded to go. The original ATLAS concept of one delegate per ALS doesn't have to be binned because of cost considerations. The technology exists to do this -- the move from Connect to Zoom completely enables the capacity -- and we even has a proof of concept in the ISOC InterCommunity events which have been running for some time now. The cost of providing subsidy for short term reliable Internet access, to participants with connectivity challenges, would be far less than the cost of airfare and hotel. Indeed I have previously advocated that all ICANN meetings should be mostly virtual as a matter of equitable access (ie, not only those with financial interest in ICANN decisions get to participate fully). Especially for At-Large ... think of how the money saved could be spent on public education and surveys that would legitimize our standing and serve our mission. But that's for a different thread. The simplest way to deal with visa problems (among many other problems) is to eliminate the travel component completely and meet virtually. - Evan

Thanks Evan. In addition to all the benefits mentioned, remote meetings will also save on the enormous carbon emissions that our meetings seem to cause (as per the ICANN CEO's recent blog). However, in a recent conversation with the CEO, we were told that ICANN does not foresee any change in its meeting strategy in the short run, which means we have to still seek ways to improve the visa process, especially for participants from the Developing World. With kind regards, satish On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 9:33 AM John More via At-Large < at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> wrote:

+1

John More

On Oct 27, 2019, at 6:30 PM, Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org> wrote:

If there is indeed a genuine search for solutions....

The most obvious answer for years has been to not require anyone to have to physically travel, and to have Summits which by-design are meant to be held virtually.

Not only does this eliminate visa problems completely, but it also vastly reduces logistical challenges for both organizer and participant:

- No lost luggage - No health insurance issues - No missed flights - No hotel booking problems - No currency-exchange issues - No issues with airport-to-hotel transportation

Having a virtual Summit also reduces the travel and settling-in time (making more time available for meetings) and eliminates delegates' burning fossil fuels to congregate in one place. More importantly, it also means that expenses are drastically reduced, so organizers don't have to go through an arduous task of determining who can or cannot be funded to go. The original ATLAS concept of one delegate per ALS doesn't have to be binned because of cost considerations.

The technology exists to do this -- the move from Connect to Zoom completely enables the capacity -- and we even has a proof of concept in the ISOC InterCommunity events which have been running for some time now. The cost of providing subsidy for short term reliable Internet access, to participants with connectivity challenges, would be far less than the cost of airfare and hotel.

Indeed I have previously advocated that all ICANN meetings should be mostly virtual as a matter of equitable access (ie, not only those with financial interest in ICANN decisions get to participate fully). Especially for At-Large ... think of how the money saved could be spent on public education and surveys that would legitimize our standing and serve our mission. But that's for a different thread.

The simplest way to deal with visa problems (among many other problems) is to eliminate the travel component completely and meet virtually.

- Evan

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Reaffirming my previous concepts. I cited the case of a country in Asia Pacific where only one person did not obtain the visa. Let me quote textually the clarification of that person (my friend) about the problem of rejection. I obtained my visa as a tourist. I travel with my lady and I will remain in Montreal as a tourist several days after ICANN 66. Maybe that's why I had no problems. The "work / business" option should not be so restorative, or it should be separate, because it has a greater demand than that of a tourist. That's why I warned with a lot of time. The clarification of my friend: "There are several people from the same country with granted visas, and only one from that country with a visa denied." This is true, but not very precise. I was the only person from our country who has made an application based on Newland Chase Advice via online application system through the global portal of Canada. The rest of people from our country have NOT applied online and have NOT followed that procedure, they used the services of the local Armenia-based visa consulting company, and the logic of their application process was totally different. As a result, they have been granted visas.” Regards Alberto De: At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> en nombre de Alberto Soto <alberto@soto.net.ar> Fecha: lunes, 28 de octubre de 2019, 02:09 Para: Satish Babu <sb@inapp.com>, John More <morej1@mac.com> CC: At-Large Worldwide <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Asunto: Re: [At-Large] The visa to Canada and fall of participation +1 Satish!! Best Alberto De: At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> en nombre de Satish Babu via At-Large <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Responder a: Satish Babu <sb@inapp.com> Fecha: lunes, 28 de octubre de 2019, 02:00 Para: John More <morej1@mac.com> CC: At-Large Worldwide <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Asunto: Re: [At-Large] The visa to Canada and fall of participation Thanks Evan. In addition to all the benefits mentioned, remote meetings will also save on the enormous carbon emissions that our meetings seem to cause (as per the ICANN CEO's recent blog). However, in a recent conversation with the CEO, we were told that ICANN does not foresee any change in its meeting strategy in the short run, which means we have to still seek ways to improve the visa process, especially for participants from the Developing World. With kind regards, satish On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 9:33 AM John More via At-Large <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> wrote: +1 John More On Oct 27, 2019, at 6:30 PM, Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org> wrote: If there is indeed a genuine search for solutions.... The most obvious answer for years has been to not require anyone to have to physically travel, and to have Summits which by-design are meant to be held virtually. Not only does this eliminate visa problems completely, but it also vastly reduces logistical challenges for both organizer and participant: No lost luggage No health insurance issues No missed flights No hotel booking problems No currency-exchange issues No issues with airport-to-hotel transportation Having a virtual Summit also reduces the travel and settling-in time (making more time available for meetings) and eliminates delegates' burning fossil fuels to congregate in one place. More importantly, it also means that expenses are drastically reduced, so organizers don't have to go through an arduous task of determining who can or cannot be funded to go. The original ATLAS concept of one delegate per ALS doesn't have to be binned because of cost considerations. The technology exists to do this -- the move from Connect to Zoom completely enables the capacity -- and we even has a proof of concept in the ISOC InterCommunity events which have been running for some time now. The cost of providing subsidy for short term reliable Internet access, to participants with connectivity challenges, would be far less than the cost of airfare and hotel. Indeed I have previously advocated that all ICANN meetings should be mostly virtual as a matter of equitable access (ie, not only those with financial interest in ICANN decisions get to participate fully). Especially for At-Large ... think of how the money saved could be spent on public education and surveys that would legitimize our standing and serve our mission. But that's for a different thread. The simplest way to deal with visa problems (among many other problems) is to eliminate the travel component completely and meet virtually. - Evan _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.

Your contribution as far as I am concerned is playing the devil's advocate. One would have expected your active involvement as a National before now. How many African countries with poor network problems would host effective virtual summits. And at what locations with ALS located in different parts. Canada is defrauding visa applicants by deliberate refusals and asking they reapply. The intelligence of their consular officers are suspect. Giving same reason for refusal for ALL applicants! 😱 Even though a country has the right to refuse or accept visa application, one major criteria used by all is the applicant travel history. So anyone supporting Canada in their inglorious selective and racially biased visa process should please have a rethink On Mon, 28 Oct 2019, 06:47 Evan Leibovitch, <evan@telly.org> wrote:

Hi Satish,

...

In addition to all the benefits mentioned, remote meetings will also save on the enormous carbon emissions that our meetings seem to cause (as per the ICANN CEO's recent blog).

Indeed.

However, in a recent conversation with the CEO, we were told that ICANN

...

does not foresee any change in its meeting strategy in the short run, which means we have to still seek ways to improve the visa process, especially for participants from the Developing World.

There are two issues here: At-Large Summits and ICANN meetings in general.

It is within our capacity now to commit ATLAS IV to be virtual, which gives plenty of time to plan and test. (Indeed, given the massively lower cost and improved access, virtual Summits could be held every year.)

Meanwhile, it is my opinion that ALAC should be advancing very strong Advice to the Board to hasten the virtualisation of its meetings. This is not only a developing-world issue, it's one with real consequences worldwide. The current meeting policy impairs developing-world access well beyond the visa issue. Visa problems are irrelevant to those who want to attend but can't afford to go and are not deemed worthy of subsidy; virtual meetings eliminate these barriers for all.

Currently, only the financially motivated and the subsidized can attend ICANN meetings with regularity; under this situation the vested interests overwhelm the meetings, from working groups to the Public Forum to private invitation-only side-events which trade influence for cocktails. Making ICANN meetings virtual greatly reduces this unbalanced access to the ICANN Board, staff and policy apparatus. Not only do virtual meetings eliminate attendance barriers for the developing world, they also reduce the imbalance between he public interest and the domain industry. Imagine if every ALS were able to attend every ICANN meeting as easily as any registrar! It's no wonder that the establishment wants to maintain this imbalance despite claims of inclusiveness.

The experiences witnessed in this thread suggest that ALAC may want to advance this issue up the CEO's priority list. How badly do we want the barriers removed.?

--------

As for short term help, ICANN Constituency Travel has been grappling with this issue for decades. ICANN itself can't be expected to understand local visa issues everywhere they have meetings, and very very few countries have no entry restrictions <https://qz.com/1701304/the-easiest-countries-to-visit-as-a-tourist/>. ICANN 68 will be in a country that denies all access to people from Israel, period. ICANN 67 and ICANN 70 will be held in a country that requires visas from almost all of Africa and Asia (*except* for Israelis, for which entry is visa-free) and has 27 fewer embassies than Canada. ICANN 72 will be in a country that might approve your visa but still turn you away at the point of entry after demanding to see your phone's social media posting <https://www.rferl.org/a/new-u-s-visa-rules-may-push-foreigners-to-censor-their-posts/30005463.html>s. And not everyone has an easy time getting into Schengen, either.

It's unlikely that these meeting locations, already approved by the Board, are likely to change. So what can be done?

What is crucial is to have a good local host for each meeting with governmental connections. At ICANN 42 in Toronto almost exactly seven years ago, the local ccTLD (CIRA) was heavily involved as host and I don't recall any visa problems. (Indeed that meeting was either the first or second time ever that an At-Large event was hosted at an ALAC member's home -- mine). Next week's meeting host is the dot-quebec geoTLD <http://rendez-vousmontreal66.quebec/> -- have they been involved at all in facilitating anyone's visa issues? If not that's a problem, they should be the ones with local knowledge, willing to provide advice or make interventions.

So ... in the short term, demand that ICANN has a reliable local hosts for each meeting who will be expected to support -- and intervene on behalf of -- visa applications. In the medium term and beyond, ALAC needs to push for virtual meetings on a general principle of inclusivity.

--------

I was asked for solutions; these are mine. You may now resume the gratuitous Canada-bashing and petition-starting, while determining if those constitute solutions.

- Evan

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Hi Evan and colleagues I think its important for those who do not really have solution to proffer to simply keep mute and get busy some where else than pressing send on their devices, rather than trying to defend indefensible being experienced in this visa bottleneck and stop infuriating the situation. Its vexing enough that after people have traveled to US, UK, Germany and made it successfully back and even without any atom of evidence, one embassy will now thinks it has the legality to impose an allegation of plans to migrate to Canada to do what there? Join body of unemployed. As far as I am concerned which has been evidently shown, the Canadian visa scheme was a fraud based on generating revenue rather than looking at genuineness of subject matters. And as long as its not visa to haven, its taken as one of those things, although my concern is the unfounded allegations, which if left unpunctured, stands in their records as truth. So, I will advise any one who applied and was given the so-called visa denial to ensure they respond by clearing the air via reapplication possibly or merely writing a refutal to the corresponding embassy. ____ REMMY NWEKE, mNGE, Lead Consulting Strategist/Group Executive Editor, DigitalSENSE Africa Media [*Multiple-award winning medium*] (DigitalSENSE Business News <http://www.digitalsenseafrica.com.ng/businessnews>; ITREALMS <http://www.itrealms.com.ng>, NaijaAgroNet <http://www.naijaagronet.com.ng>) Block F1, Shop 133 Moyosore Aboderin Plaza, Bolade Junction, Oshodi-Lagos M: 234-8033592762, 8023122558, 8051000475, T: @ITRealms <http://www.twitter.com/ITRealms> Author: A Decade of ICT Reportage in Nigeria <https://www.facebook.com/adecadeofictreportageinnigeria%E2%80%8E> *2020 Nigeria DigitalSENSE Forum on IG4D & Nigeria IPv6 Roundtable <http://www.digitalsenseafrica.com.ng>* JOIN us!! *Vice President, African Civil Society on the Information Society (ACSIS <http://www.acsis-scasi.org/en/>) _________________________________________________________________ *Confidentiality Notice:* The information in this document and attachments are confidential and may also be privileged information. It is intended only for the use of the named recipient. Remmy Nweke does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify me immediately, then delete this document and do not disclose the contents of this document to any other person, nor make any copies. Violators may face court persecution. On Sun, Oct 27, 2019 at 12:23 PM peters omoragbon <petersomoragbon@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello Alan. Responding from your last paragraph : What has procrastination got to do with applying for visa early when ICANN has to first of all put in place the needed documents and information to support any application. So, the problem is not from the applicant but the organizers who should know better. This goes to your correct observation about ICANN travel not doing enough due diligence in this matter before now. I attend international conferences especially as a United Nations Permanent Rep and A UNFCCC Designated Contact person. What the organizers do is to agree on a code with the host country foreign affairs ministry for ACCREDITED Delegates. With this, they re exempted mostly from the stringent requirements for ordinary applicants. Icann has been doing this now for over 70 times and should have by now known how to navigate this bureaucracy. What I still find very insulting from Canada is to allude that all applicants from selected countries are potential immigrants when these applicants have shown clear evidence of having been to the USA and Europe without migrating! I asked what is so special about Canada? Finally, Alan I could suspect you are a Canadian from your position so far. With your insider knowledge and experience, and considering how deep rooted you are in ICANN why did you not form part of the local host to help avert these unnecessary hoola baloo?

Instead of trying to challenge my frustration with the system of Canada, I expect you to proffer workable solution and support for those having visa problems. Why must I try to impress Canada with ALL I have got to demonstrate I will return? If I want to stay, that will not prevent me from staying back. Afterall I won't forfeit my assets to Canada if I refuse to leave. That is why their reasons make no sense to me. Best Pastor Peters Omoragbon

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On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 at 9:56, Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org> wrote: _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large

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