RFC8890: The Internet is for End Users
FYI: The Internet Architecture Board (IAB) recently published “RFC: 8890 - The Internet is for End Users” which some people in the CPWG may find interesting. The RFC highlights a number of important policy/standards areas that overlap with At-Large policy creation. The IAB seems to feel it’s important for IETF standards to be developed under the guidance of explicitly stated principles. The idea of policy making being guided by explicitly stated principles is something that the At-Large community may wish to consider too. RFC 8890 - The Internet is for End Users <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8890> Mark Nottingham’s Blog Post <https://www.mnot.net/blog/2020/08/28/for_the_users> which describes the reasons for publishing RFC 8890. Cheers! David
Thanks for this. On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 3:50 PM David Mackey <mackey361@gmail.com> wrote:
FYI:
The Internet Architecture Board (IAB) recently published “RFC: 8890 - The Internet is for End Users” which some people in the CPWG may find interesting.
The RFC highlights a number of important policy/standards areas that overlap with At-Large policy creation.
The IAB seems to feel it’s important for IETF standards to be developed under the guidance of explicitly stated principles. The idea of policy making being guided by explicitly stated principles is something that the At-Large community may wish to consider too.
RFC 8890 - The Internet is for End Users <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8890>
Mark Nottingham’s Blog Post <https://www.mnot.net/blog/2020/08/28/for_the_users> which describes the reasons for publishing RFC 8890.
Cheers!
David
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This might even, on some readings, mandate a redistribution of the number of seats on the ICANN Board allocated to the various stakeholder groups. Just a thought. Bill Jouris On Saturday, August 29, 2020, 12:50:08 PM PDT, David Mackey <mackey361@gmail.com> wrote: FYI: The Internet Architecture Board (IAB) recently published “RFC: 8890 - The Internet is for End Users” which some people in the CPWG may find interesting. The RFC highlights a number of important policy/standards areas that overlap with At-Large policy creation. The IAB seems to feel it’s important for IETF standards to be developed under the guidance of explicitly stated principles. The idea of policy making being guided by explicitly stated principles is something that the At-Large community may wish to consider too. RFC 8890 - The Internet is for End Users Mark Nottingham’s Blog Post which describes the reasons for publishing RFC 8890. Cheers! David _______________________________________________ CPWG mailing list CPWG@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cpwg _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Thanks David. Very interesting. The At-Large DOES operate on some principles, for sure and this has lead to disagreements with others in things like GDPR compliance and indigenous interests to domain names. It's difficult to be so out numbered but I'll be interested to see where this goes. Thanks for sharing. Jonathan ________________________________ From: CPWG <cpwg-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of David Mackey <mackey361@gmail.com> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2020 3:49:29 PM To: CPWG <cpwg@icann.org> Subject: [CPWG] RFC8890: The Internet is for End Users FYI: The Internet Architecture Board (IAB) recently published “RFC: 8890 - The Internet is for End Users” which some people in the CPWG may find interesting. The RFC highlights a number of important policy/standards areas that overlap with At-Large policy creation. The IAB seems to feel it’s important for IETF standards to be developed under the guidance of explicitly stated principles. The idea of policy making being guided by explicitly stated principles is something that the At-Large community may wish to consider too. RFC 8890 - The Internet is for End Users<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8890> Mark Nottingham’s Blog Post<https://www.mnot.net/blog/2020/08/28/for_the_users> which describes the reasons for publishing RFC 8890. Cheers! David
Thank you David, @Jonathan, it is worth discussing RFC8890 at at-large. On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 11:08 PM Jonathan Zuck <JZuck@innovatorsnetwork.org> wrote:
Thanks David. Very interesting. The At-Large DOES operate on some principles, for sure and this has lead to disagreements with others in things like GDPR compliance and indigenous interests to domain names. It's difficult to be so out numbered but I'll be interested
to see where this goes. Thanks for sharing.
Jonathan
------------------------------
*From:* CPWG <cpwg-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of David Mackey < mackey361@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Saturday, August 29, 2020 3:49:29 PM
*To:* CPWG <cpwg@icann.org>
*Subject:* [CPWG] RFC8890: The Internet is for End Users
FYI:
The Internet Architecture Board (IAB) recently published “RFC: 8890 - The Internet is for End Users” which some people in the CPWG may find interesting.
The RFC highlights a number of important policy/standards areas that overlap with At-Large policy creation.
The IAB seems to feel it’s important for IETF standards to be developed under the guidance of explicitly stated principles. The idea of policy making being guided by explicitly stated principles is something that the At-Large community may wish to consider
too.
RFC 8890 - The Internet is for End Users <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8890>
Mark Nottingham’s Blog Post <https://www.mnot.net/blog/2020/08/28/for_the_users> which describes the reasons for publishing RFC 8890.
Cheers!
David
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https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cpwg
_______________________________________________
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And in the near term, Holly might want to bring it up during her DOH webinar... Jonathan Zuck Innovators Network Foundation www.InnovatorsNetwork.org<http://www.InnovatorsNetwork.org> ________________________________ From: Nadira Alaraj <nadira.araj@gmail.com> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2020 4:20:10 PM To: Jonathan Zuck <JZuck@innovatorsnetwork.org> Cc: cpwg@icann.org <cpwg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [CPWG] RFC8890: The Internet is for End Users Thank you David, @Jonathan, it is worth discussing RFC8890 at at-large. On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 11:08 PM Jonathan Zuck <JZuck@innovatorsnetwork.org<mailto:JZuck@innovatorsnetwork.org>> wrote: Thanks David. Very interesting. The At-Large DOES operate on some principles, for sure and this has lead to disagreements with others in things like GDPR compliance and indigenous interests to domain names. It's difficult to be so out numbered but I'll be interested to see where this goes. Thanks for sharing. Jonathan ________________________________ From: CPWG <cpwg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:cpwg-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of David Mackey <mackey361@gmail.com<mailto:mackey361@gmail.com>> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2020 3:49:29 PM To: CPWG <cpwg@icann.org<mailto:cpwg@icann.org>> Subject: [CPWG] RFC8890: The Internet is for End Users FYI: The Internet Architecture Board (IAB) recently published “RFC: 8890 - The Internet is for End Users” which some people in the CPWG may find interesting. The RFC highlights a number of important policy/standards areas that overlap with At-Large policy creation. The IAB seems to feel it’s important for IETF standards to be developed under the guidance of explicitly stated principles. The idea of policy making being guided by explicitly stated principles is something that the At-Large community may wish to consider too. RFC 8890 - The Internet is for End Users<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8890> Mark Nottingham’s Blog Post<https://www.mnot.net/blog/2020/08/28/for_the_users> which describes the reasons for publishing RFC 8890. Cheers! David _______________________________________________ CPWG mailing list CPWG@icann.org<mailto:CPWG@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cpwg _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. --
I like this: Successful specifications will provide some benefit to all the relevant parties because standards do not represent a zero-sum game. However, there are sometimes situations where there is a conflict between the needs of two (or more) parties. In these situations, when one of those parties is an "end user" of the Internet -- for example, a person using a web browser, mail client, or another agent that connects to the Internet -- the Internet Architecture Board argues that the IETF should favor their interests over those of other parties. De: CPWG <cpwg-bounces@icann.org> En nombre de Jonathan Zuck Enviado el: sábado, 29 de agosto de 2020 17:22 Para: Nadira Alaraj <nadira.araj@gmail.com> CC: cpwg@icann.org Asunto: Re: [CPWG] RFC8890: The Internet is for End Users And in the near term, Holly might want to bring it up during her DOH webinar... Jonathan Zuck Innovators Network Foundation www.InnovatorsNetwork.org <http://www.InnovatorsNetwork.org> _____ From: Nadira Alaraj <nadira.araj@gmail.com <mailto:nadira.araj@gmail.com> > Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2020 4:20:10 PM To: Jonathan Zuck <JZuck@innovatorsnetwork.org <mailto:JZuck@innovatorsnetwork.org> > Cc: cpwg@icann.org <mailto:cpwg@icann.org> <cpwg@icann.org <mailto:cpwg@icann.org> > Subject: Re: [CPWG] RFC8890: The Internet is for End Users Thank you David, @Jonathan, it is worth discussing RFC8890 at at-large. On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 11:08 PM Jonathan Zuck <JZuck@innovatorsnetwork.org <mailto:JZuck@innovatorsnetwork.org> > wrote: Thanks David. Very interesting. The At-Large DOES operate on some principles, for sure and this has lead to disagreements with others in things like GDPR compliance and indigenous interests to domain names. It's difficult to be so out numbered but I'll be interested to see where this goes. Thanks for sharing. Jonathan _____ From: CPWG <cpwg-bounces@icann.org <mailto:cpwg-bounces@icann.org> > on behalf of David Mackey <mackey361@gmail.com <mailto:mackey361@gmail.com> > Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2020 3:49:29 PM To: CPWG <cpwg@icann.org <mailto:cpwg@icann.org> > Subject: [CPWG] RFC8890: The Internet is for End Users FYI: The Internet Architecture Board (IAB) recently published RFC: 8890 - The Internet is for End Users which some people in the CPWG may find interesting. The RFC highlights a number of important policy/standards areas that overlap with At-Large policy creation. The IAB seems to feel its important for IETF standards to be developed under the guidance of explicitly stated principles. The idea of policy making being guided by explicitly stated principles is something that the At-Large community may wish to consider too. RFC 8890 - The Internet is for End Users <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8890> Mark Nottingham <https://www.mnot.net/blog/2020/08/28/for_the_users> s Blog Post which describes the reasons for publishing RFC 8890. Cheers! David _______________________________________________ CPWG mailing list CPWG@icann.org <mailto:CPWG@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cpwg _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. --
Finally - a definition of ‘end user’ from the tech community - which, of course, I will use. Holly
On Aug 30, 2020, at 6:37 AM, <alberto@soto.net.ar> <alberto@soto.net.ar> wrote:
I like this: “Successful specifications will provide some benefit to all the relevant parties because standards do not represent a zero-sum game. However, there are sometimes situations where there is a conflict between the needs of two (or more) parties.
In these situations, when one of those parties is an "end user" of the Internet -- for example, a person using a web browser, mail client, or another agent that connects to the Internet -- the Internet Architecture Board argues that the IETF should favor their interests over those of other parties.”
De: CPWG <cpwg-bounces@icann.org <mailto:cpwg-bounces@icann.org>> En nombre de Jonathan Zuck Enviado el: sábado, 29 de agosto de 2020 17:22 Para: Nadira Alaraj <nadira.araj@gmail.com <mailto:nadira.araj@gmail.com>> CC: cpwg@icann.org <mailto:cpwg@icann.org> Asunto: Re: [CPWG] RFC8890: The Internet is for End Users
And in the near term, Holly might want to bring it up during her DOH webinar...
Jonathan Zuck Innovators Network Foundation www.InnovatorsNetwork.org <http://www.innovatorsnetwork.org/> From: Nadira Alaraj <nadira.araj@gmail.com <mailto:nadira.araj@gmail.com>> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2020 4:20:10 PM To: Jonathan Zuck <JZuck@innovatorsnetwork.org <mailto:JZuck@innovatorsnetwork.org>> Cc: cpwg@icann.org <mailto:cpwg@icann.org> <cpwg@icann.org <mailto:cpwg@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [CPWG] RFC8890: The Internet is for End Users
Thank you David, @Jonathan, it is worth discussing RFC8890 at at-large.
On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 11:08 PM Jonathan Zuck <JZuck@innovatorsnetwork.org <mailto:JZuck@innovatorsnetwork.org>> wrote:
Thanks David. Very interesting. The At-Large DOES operate on some principles, for sure and this has lead to disagreements with others in things like GDPR compliance and indigenous interests to domain names. It's difficult to be so out numbered but I'll be interested
to see where this goes. Thanks for sharing.
Jonathan
From: CPWG <cpwg-bounces@icann.org <mailto:cpwg-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of David Mackey <mackey361@gmail.com <mailto:mackey361@gmail.com>>
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2020 3:49:29 PM
To: CPWG <cpwg@icann.org <mailto:cpwg@icann.org>>
Subject: [CPWG] RFC8890: The Internet is for End Users
FYI:
The Internet Architecture Board (IAB) recently published “RFC: 8890 - The Internet is for End Users” which some people in the CPWG may find interesting.
The RFC highlights a number of important policy/standards areas that overlap with At-Large policy creation.
The IAB seems to feel it’s important for IETF standards to be developed under the guidance of explicitly stated principles. The idea of policy making being guided by explicitly stated principles is something that the At-Large community may wish to consider
too.
RFC 8890 - The Internet is for End Users <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8890>
Mark Nottingham’s Blog Post <https://www.mnot.net/blog/2020/08/28/for_the_users> which describes the reasons for publishing RFC 8890.
Cheers!
David
_______________________________________________
CPWG mailing list
CPWG@icann.org <mailto:CPWG@icann.org>
https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cpwg <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cpwg>
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By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy <https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy>) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos <https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos>). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
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_______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy <https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy>) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos <https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos>). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Agree @Holly On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 4:50 PM Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net> wrote:
Finally - a definition of ‘end user’ from the tech community - which, of course, I will use.
Holly
On Aug 30, 2020, at 6:37 AM, <alberto@soto.net.ar> <alberto@soto.net.ar> wrote:
I like this: “Successful specifications will provide some benefit to all the relevant parties because standards do not represent a zero-sum game. However, there are sometimes situations where there is a conflict between the needs of two (or more) parties.
In these situations, when one of those parties is an "end user" of the Internet -- for example, a person using a web browser, mail client, or another agent that connects to the Internet -- the Internet Architecture Board argues that the IETF should favor their interests over those of other parties.”
*De:* CPWG <cpwg-bounces@icann.org> *En nombre de *Jonathan Zuck *Enviado el:* sábado, 29 de agosto de 2020 17:22 *Para:* Nadira Alaraj <nadira.araj@gmail.com> *CC:* cpwg@icann.org *Asunto:* Re: [CPWG] RFC8890: The Internet is for End Users
And in the near term, Holly might want to bring it up during her DOH webinar...
Jonathan Zuck Innovators Network Foundation www.InnovatorsNetwork.org <http://www.innovatorsnetwork.org/> ------------------------------ *From:* Nadira Alaraj <nadira.araj@gmail.com> *Sent:* Saturday, August 29, 2020 4:20:10 PM *To:* Jonathan Zuck <JZuck@innovatorsnetwork.org> *Cc:* cpwg@icann.org <cpwg@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [CPWG] RFC8890: The Internet is for End Users
Thank you David, @Jonathan, it is worth discussing RFC8890 at at-large.
On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 11:08 PM Jonathan Zuck < JZuck@innovatorsnetwork.org> wrote:
Thanks David. Very interesting. The At-Large DOES operate on some principles, for sure and this has lead to disagreements with others in things like GDPR compliance and indigenous interests to domain names. It's difficult to be so out numbered but I'll be interested
to see where this goes. Thanks for sharing.
Jonathan
------------------------------
*From:* CPWG <cpwg-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of David Mackey < mackey361@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Saturday, August 29, 2020 3:49:29 PM
*To:* CPWG <cpwg@icann.org>
*Subject:* [CPWG] RFC8890: The Internet is for End Users
FYI:
The Internet Architecture Board (IAB) recently published “RFC: 8890 - The Internet is for End Users” which some people in the CPWG may find interesting.
The RFC highlights a number of important policy/standards areas that overlap with At-Large policy creation.
The IAB seems to feel it’s important for IETF standards to be developed under the guidance of explicitly stated principles. The idea of policy making being guided by explicitly stated principles is something that the At-Large community may wish to consider
too.
RFC 8890 - The Internet is for End Users <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8890>
Mark Nottingham’s Blog Post <https://www.mnot.net/blog/2020/08/28/for_the_users> which describes the reasons for publishing RFC 8890.
Cheers!
David
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Which, of course, aligns with ours. End user isn't a category of user but a category of use Jonathan Zuck Innovators Network Foundation www.InnovatorsNetwork.org<http://www.InnovatorsNetwork.org> ________________________________ From: CPWG <cpwg-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Javier Rua <javrua@gmail.com> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2020 4:51:17 PM To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net> Cc: CPWG <cpwg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [CPWG] RFC8890: The Internet is for End Users Agree @Holly On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 4:50 PM Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> wrote: Finally - a definition of ‘end user’ from the tech community - which, of course, I will use. Holly On Aug 30, 2020, at 6:37 AM, <alberto@soto.net.ar<mailto:alberto@soto.net.ar>> <alberto@soto.net.ar<mailto:alberto@soto.net.ar>> wrote: I like this: “Successful specifications will provide some benefit to all the relevant parties because standards do not represent a zero-sum game. However, there are sometimes situations where there is a conflict between the needs of two (or more) parties. In these situations, when one of those parties is an "end user" of the Internet -- for example, a person using a web browser, mail client, or another agent that connects to the Internet -- the Internet Architecture Board argues that the IETF should favor their interests over those of other parties.” De: CPWG <cpwg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:cpwg-bounces@icann.org>> En nombre de Jonathan Zuck Enviado el: sábado, 29 de agosto de 2020 17:22 Para: Nadira Alaraj <nadira.araj@gmail.com<mailto:nadira.araj@gmail.com>> CC: cpwg@icann.org<mailto:cpwg@icann.org> Asunto: Re: [CPWG] RFC8890: The Internet is for End Users And in the near term, Holly might want to bring it up during her DOH webinar... Jonathan Zuck Innovators Network Foundation www.InnovatorsNetwork.org<http://www.innovatorsnetwork.org/> ________________________________ From: Nadira Alaraj <nadira.araj@gmail.com<mailto:nadira.araj@gmail.com>> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2020 4:20:10 PM To: Jonathan Zuck <JZuck@innovatorsnetwork.org<mailto:JZuck@innovatorsnetwork.org>> Cc: cpwg@icann.org<mailto:cpwg@icann.org> <cpwg@icann.org<mailto:cpwg@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [CPWG] RFC8890: The Internet is for End Users Thank you David, @Jonathan, it is worth discussing RFC8890 at at-large. On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 11:08 PM Jonathan Zuck <JZuck@innovatorsnetwork.org<mailto:JZuck@innovatorsnetwork.org>> wrote: Thanks David. Very interesting. The At-Large DOES operate on some principles, for sure and this has lead to disagreements with others in things like GDPR compliance and indigenous interests to domain names. It's difficult to be so out numbered but I'll be interested to see where this goes. Thanks for sharing. Jonathan ________________________________ From: CPWG <cpwg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:cpwg-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of David Mackey <mackey361@gmail.com<mailto:mackey361@gmail.com>> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2020 3:49:29 PM To: CPWG <cpwg@icann.org<mailto:cpwg@icann.org>> Subject: [CPWG] RFC8890: The Internet is for End Users FYI: The Internet Architecture Board (IAB) recently published “RFC: 8890 - The Internet is for End Users” which some people in the CPWG may find interesting. The RFC highlights a number of important policy/standards areas that overlap with At-Large policy creation. The IAB seems to feel it’s important for IETF standards to be developed under the guidance of explicitly stated principles. The idea of policy making being guided by explicitly stated principles is something that the At-Large community may wish to consider too. RFC 8890 - The Internet is for End Users<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8890> Mark Nottingham’s Blog Post<https://www.mnot.net/blog/2020/08/28/for_the_users> which describes the reasons for publishing RFC 8890. Cheers! David _______________________________________________ CPWG mailing list CPWG@icann.org<mailto:CPWG@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cpwg _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. -- _______________________________________________ CPWG mailing list CPWG@icann.org<mailto:CPWG@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cpwg _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ CPWG mailing list CPWG@icann.org<mailto:CPWG@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cpwg _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Yes. Super straightforward. “Human users whose activities IETF standards support, sometimes indirectly. Thus, the end user of a protocol to manage routers is nota router administrator; it is the people using the network that the router operates within.” On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 4:59 PM Jonathan Zuck <JZuck@innovatorsnetwork.org> wrote:
Which, of course, aligns with ours. End user isn't a category of user but a category of use
Jonathan Zuck
Innovators Network Foundation
www.InnovatorsNetwork.org
------------------------------
*From:* CPWG <cpwg-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Javier Rua < javrua@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Saturday, August 29, 2020 4:51:17 PM
*To:* Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net>
*Cc:* CPWG <cpwg@icann.org>
*Subject:* Re: [CPWG] RFC8890: The Internet is for End Users
Agree @Holly
On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 4:50 PM Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net> wrote:
Finally - a definition of ‘end user’ from the tech community - which, of course, I will use.
Holly
On Aug 30, 2020, at 6:37 AM, <alberto@soto.net.ar> <alberto@soto.net.ar> wrote:
I like this: “Successful specifications will provide some benefit to all the
relevant parties because standards do not represent a zero-sum game.
However, there are sometimes situations where there is a conflict
between the needs of two (or more) parties.
In these situations, when one of those parties is an "end user" of
the Internet -- for example, a person using a web browser, mail
client, or another agent that connects to the Internet -- the
Internet Architecture Board argues that the IETF should favor their
interests over those of other parties.”
*De:* CPWG <cpwg-bounces@icann.org>
*En nombre de *Jonathan Zuck
*Enviado el:* sábado, 29 de agosto de 2020 17:22
*Para:* Nadira Alaraj <nadira.araj@gmail.com>
*CC:* cpwg@icann.org
*Asunto:* Re: [CPWG] RFC8890: The Internet is for End Users
And in the near term, Holly might want to bring it up during her DOH webinar...
Jonathan Zuck
Innovators Network Foundation
www.InnovatorsNetwork.org <http://www.innovatorsnetwork.org/>
------------------------------
*From:* Nadira Alaraj <nadira.araj@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Saturday, August 29, 2020 4:20:10 PM
*To:* Jonathan Zuck <JZuck@innovatorsnetwork.org>
*Cc:* cpwg@icann.org <cpwg@icann.org>
*Subject:* Re: [CPWG] RFC8890: The Internet is for End Users
Thank you David,
@Jonathan, it is worth discussing RFC8890 at at-large.
On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 11:08 PM Jonathan Zuck < JZuck@innovatorsnetwork.org>
wrote:
Thanks David. Very interesting. The At-Large DOES operate on some principles, for sure and this has lead to disagreements with others in things like GDPR compliance and indigenous interests to domain names. It's difficult to be so out numbered but I'll be interested
to see where this goes. Thanks for sharing.
Jonathan
------------------------------
*From:* CPWG <cpwg-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of David Mackey < mackey361@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Saturday, August 29, 2020 3:49:29 PM
*To:* CPWG <cpwg@icann.org>
*Subject:* [CPWG] RFC8890: The Internet is for End Users
FYI:
The Internet Architecture Board (IAB) recently published “RFC: 8890 - The Internet is for End Users” which some people in the CPWG may find interesting.
The RFC highlights a number of important policy/standards areas that overlap with At-Large policy creation.
The IAB seems to feel it’s important for IETF standards to be developed under the guidance of explicitly stated principles. The idea of policy making being guided by explicitly stated principles is something that the At-Large community may wish to consider
too.
RFC 8890 - The Internet is for End Users <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8890>
Mark Nottingham’s Blog Post <https://www.mnot.net/blog/2020/08/28/for_the_users> which describes the reasons for publishing RFC 8890.
Cheers!
David
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On Sat, 29 Aug 2020 at 16:50, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net> wrote:
Finally - a definition of ‘end user’ from the tech community - which, of course, I will use.
Exactly what I was thinking. While I'm not sure I agree fully with the definition (under which a software demon could be considered an "end user"), at least it's a specific and "good enough" definition. And we need one to end all the needless obstacles to ALAC work under the guise of "so what is an end user anyway?"... - Evan
Hi Evan I am not sure that a SW daemon could be seen as end user by the RFC8890 definition. Para.2 states: In this document, "end users" means human users whose activities IETF standards support, sometimes indirectly. To me, that excludes “non-human” entities. Anyway, what I find very important is not just the consideration about end users, but the statement in para.3 that: […]the IETF is not neutral about the purpose of its work in developing the Internet; To me that means an assumption of responsibility about the consequences - including political and social - of the development of the internet, and the need to factor these considerations in the IETF work. After all, we all are constantly wondering “why are we doing all this?” and the answer that we give to this question is crucial for the future of the Internet. Cheers, Roberto On 30.08.2020, at 03:41, Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org<mailto:evan@telly.org>> wrote: On Sat, 29 Aug 2020 at 16:50, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> wrote: Finally - a definition of ‘end user’ from the tech community - which, of course, I will use. Exactly what I was thinking. While I'm not sure I agree fully with the definition (under which a software demon could be considered an "end user"), at least it's a specific and "good enough" definition. And we need one to end all the needless obstacles to ALAC work under the guise of "so what is an end user anyway?"... - Evan _______________________________________________ CPWG mailing list CPWG@icann.org<mailto:CPWG@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cpwg _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
+1 Roberto Javier Rúa-Jovet +1-787-396-6511 twitter: @javrua skype: javier.rua1 https://www.linkedin.com/in/javrua
On Aug 31, 2020, at 6:31 AM, Roberto Gaetano <roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hi Evan I am not sure that a SW daemon could be seen as end user by the RFC8890 definition. Para.2 states: In this document, "end users" means human users whose activities IETF standards support, sometimes indirectly. To me, that excludes “non-human” entities.
Anyway, what I find very important is not just the consideration about end users, but the statement in para.3 that: […]the IETF is not neutral about the purpose of its work in developing the Internet;
To me that means an assumption of responsibility about the consequences - including political and social - of the development of the internet, and the need to factor these considerations in the IETF work. After all, we all are constantly wondering “why are we doing all this?” and the answer that we give to this question is crucial for the future of the Internet.
Cheers, Roberto
On 30.08.2020, at 03:41, Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org> wrote:
On Sat, 29 Aug 2020 at 16:50, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net> wrote: Finally - a definition of ‘end user’ from the tech community - which, of course, I will use.
Exactly what I was thinking.
While I'm not sure I agree fully with the definition (under which a software demon could be considered an "end user"), at least it's a specific and "good enough" definition. And we need one to end all the needless obstacles to ALAC work under the guise of "so what is an end user anyway?"...
- Evan
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Hi Roberto, On Mon, 31 Aug 2020 at 06:31, Roberto Gaetano <roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote:
I am not sure that a SW daemon could be seen as end user by the RFC8890 definition. Para.2 states:
In this document, "end users" means human users whose activities IETF standards support, sometimes indirectly.
To me, that excludes “non-human” entities.
And just one paragraph below, it states that the end user's presence could be represented "at the keyboard" or represented by software indirectly (e.g., as a daemon). That's pretty explicit. While software itself is "non-human", it's created by humans and could be interpreted as acting in an automated manner as a proxy for them. Anyway, what I find very important is not just the consideration about end
users, but the statement in para.3 that:
[…]the IETF is not neutral about the purpose of its work in developing the Internet;
To me that means an assumption of responsibility about the consequences - including political and social - of the development of the internet, and the need to factor these considerations in the IETF work. After all, we all are constantly wondering “why are we doing all this?” and the answer that we give to this question is crucial for the future of the Internet.
That sentence reads to me as aspirational rather than a reflection of reality. That section 3 of the document is titled "*Why the IETF Should Prioritize End Users*" (emphasis mine) indicates that it does not already do so, and needs to be convinced. - Evan
Agree. It IS an RFC, after all Jonathan Zuck Innovators Network Foundation www.InnovatorsNetwork.org<http://www.InnovatorsNetwork.org> ________________________________ From: CPWG <cpwg-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org> Sent: Wednesday, September 2, 2020 3:12:57 AM To: Roberto Gaetano <roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> Cc: CPWG <cpwg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [CPWG] RFC8890: The Internet is for End Users Hi Roberto, On Mon, 31 Aug 2020 at 06:31, Roberto Gaetano <roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com<mailto:roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com>> wrote: I am not sure that a SW daemon could be seen as end user by the RFC8890 definition. Para.2 states: In this document, "end users" means human users whose activities IETF standards support, sometimes indirectly. To me, that excludes “non-human” entities. And just one paragraph below, it states that the end user's presence could be represented "at the keyboard" or represented by software indirectly (e.g., as a daemon). That's pretty explicit. While software itself is "non-human", it's created by humans and could be interpreted as acting in an automated manner as a proxy for them. Anyway, what I find very important is not just the consideration about end users, but the statement in para.3 that: […]the IETF is not neutral about the purpose of its work in developing the Internet; To me that means an assumption of responsibility about the consequences - including political and social - of the development of the internet, and the need to factor these considerations in the IETF work. After all, we all are constantly wondering “why are we doing all this?” and the answer that we give to this question is crucial for the future of the Internet. That sentence reads to me as aspirational rather than a reflection of reality. That section 3 of the document is titled "Why the IETF Should Prioritize End Users" (emphasis mine) indicates that it does not already do so, and needs to be convinced. - Evan
I liked that bit too Alberto .:) On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 10:38 AM <alberto@soto.net.ar> wrote:
I like this: “Successful specifications will provide some benefit to all the
relevant parties because standards do not represent a zero-sum game.
However, there are sometimes situations where there is a conflict
between the needs of two (or more) parties.
In these situations, when one of those parties is an "end user" of
the Internet -- for example, a person using a web browser, mail
client, or another agent that connects to the Internet -- the
Internet Architecture Board argues that the IETF should favor their
interests over those of other parties.”
*De:* CPWG <cpwg-bounces@icann.org> *En nombre de *Jonathan Zuck *Enviado el:* sábado, 29 de agosto de 2020 17:22 *Para:* Nadira Alaraj <nadira.araj@gmail.com> *CC:* cpwg@icann.org *Asunto:* Re: [CPWG] RFC8890: The Internet is for End Users
And in the near term, Holly might want to bring it up during her DOH webinar...
Jonathan Zuck Innovators Network Foundation www.InnovatorsNetwork.org ------------------------------
*From:* Nadira Alaraj <nadira.araj@gmail.com> *Sent:* Saturday, August 29, 2020 4:20:10 PM *To:* Jonathan Zuck <JZuck@innovatorsnetwork.org> *Cc:* cpwg@icann.org <cpwg@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [CPWG] RFC8890: The Internet is for End Users
Thank you David,
@Jonathan, it is worth discussing RFC8890 at at-large.
On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 11:08 PM Jonathan Zuck < JZuck@innovatorsnetwork.org> wrote:
Thanks David. Very interesting. The At-Large DOES operate on some principles, for sure and this has lead to disagreements with others in things like GDPR compliance and indigenous interests to domain names. It's difficult to be so out numbered but I'll be interested
to see where this goes. Thanks for sharing.
Jonathan
------------------------------
*From:* CPWG <cpwg-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of David Mackey < mackey361@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Saturday, August 29, 2020 3:49:29 PM
*To:* CPWG <cpwg@icann.org>
*Subject:* [CPWG] RFC8890: The Internet is for End Users
FYI:
The Internet Architecture Board (IAB) recently published “RFC: 8890 - The Internet is for End Users” which some people in the CPWG may find interesting.
The RFC highlights a number of important policy/standards areas that overlap with At-Large policy creation.
The IAB seems to feel it’s important for IETF standards to be developed under the guidance of explicitly stated principles. The idea of policy making being guided by explicitly stated principles is something that the At-Large community may wish to consider
too.
RFC 8890 - The Internet is for End Users <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8890>
Mark Nottingham’s Blog Post <https://www.mnot.net/blog/2020/08/28/for_the_users> which describes the reasons for publishing RFC 8890.
Cheers!
David
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Hi Jonathan, You're right. There's no doubt At-Large is guided by many principles either through interpretation of the By-Laws and by RALO MOUs ... and of course principles that come along with each individual that participates in the At-Large community. I apologize if my words did not clearly articulate the high level of integrity found in our community. The thing that I find interesting about this RFC is that the IAB is attempting to explicitly articulate principles to prioritize end user interests when doing IETF standards work. It's not an easy task. I claim no wisdom on what this means inside the At-Large community context. It just seems like worthwhile material that should be shared with the community. Cheers! David On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 4:08 PM Jonathan Zuck <JZuck@innovatorsnetwork.org> wrote:
Thanks David. Very interesting. The At-Large DOES operate on some principles, for sure and this has lead to disagreements with others in things like GDPR compliance and indigenous interests to domain names. It's difficult to be so out numbered but I'll be interested to see where this goes. Thanks for sharing.
Jonathan ------------------------------ *From:* CPWG <cpwg-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of David Mackey < mackey361@gmail.com> *Sent:* Saturday, August 29, 2020 3:49:29 PM *To:* CPWG <cpwg@icann.org> *Subject:* [CPWG] RFC8890: The Internet is for End Users
FYI:
The Internet Architecture Board (IAB) recently published “RFC: 8890 - The Internet is for End Users” which some people in the CPWG may find interesting.
The RFC highlights a number of important policy/standards areas that overlap with At-Large policy creation.
The IAB seems to feel it’s important for IETF standards to be developed under the guidance of explicitly stated principles. The idea of policy making being guided by explicitly stated principles is something that the At-Large community may wish to consider too.
RFC 8890 - The Internet is for End Users <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8890>
Mark Nottingham’s Blog Post <https://www.mnot.net/blog/2020/08/28/for_the_users> which describes the reasons for publishing RFC 8890.
Cheers!
David _______________________________________________ CPWG mailing list CPWG@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cpwg
_______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Definitely. I wasn't taking offense, just saying we HAVE endeavored to take on some principles. The challenge is that our work begins where this RFC ends. We START with the notion that individual end users should come first and have to take the next step to determine those interests, particularly in an environment focused on registrants Jonathan Zuck Innovators Network Foundation www.InnovatorsNetwork.org<http://www.InnovatorsNetwork.org> ________________________________ From: David Mackey <mackey361@gmail.com> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2020 5:58:12 PM To: Jonathan Zuck <JZuck@innovatorsnetwork.org> Cc: cpwg@icann.org <cpwg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [CPWG] RFC8890: The Internet is for End Users Hi Jonathan, You're right. There's no doubt At-Large is guided by many principles either through interpretation of the By-Laws and by RALO MOUs ... and of course principles that come along with each individual that participates in the At-Large community. I apologize if my words did not clearly articulate the high level of integrity found in our community. The thing that I find interesting about this RFC is that the IAB is attempting to explicitly articulate principles to prioritize end user interests when doing IETF standards work. It's not an easy task. I claim no wisdom on what this means inside the At-Large community context. It just seems like worthwhile material that should be shared with the community. Cheers! David On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 4:08 PM Jonathan Zuck <JZuck@innovatorsnetwork.org<mailto:JZuck@innovatorsnetwork.org>> wrote: Thanks David. Very interesting. The At-Large DOES operate on some principles, for sure and this has lead to disagreements with others in things like GDPR compliance and indigenous interests to domain names. It's difficult to be so out numbered but I'll be interested to see where this goes. Thanks for sharing. Jonathan ________________________________ From: CPWG <cpwg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:cpwg-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of David Mackey <mackey361@gmail.com<mailto:mackey361@gmail.com>> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2020 3:49:29 PM To: CPWG <cpwg@icann.org<mailto:cpwg@icann.org>> Subject: [CPWG] RFC8890: The Internet is for End Users FYI: The Internet Architecture Board (IAB) recently published “RFC: 8890 - The Internet is for End Users” which some people in the CPWG may find interesting. The RFC highlights a number of important policy/standards areas that overlap with At-Large policy creation. The IAB seems to feel it’s important for IETF standards to be developed under the guidance of explicitly stated principles. The idea of policy making being guided by explicitly stated principles is something that the At-Large community may wish to consider too. RFC 8890 - The Internet is for End Users<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8890> Mark Nottingham’s Blog Post<https://www.mnot.net/blog/2020/08/28/for_the_users> which describes the reasons for publishing RFC 8890. Cheers! David _______________________________________________ CPWG mailing list CPWG@icann.org<mailto:CPWG@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cpwg _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
participants (10)
-
alberto＠soto.net.ar -
Bill Jouris -
David Mackey -
Evan Leibovitch -
Holly Raiche -
Javier Rua -
Jonathan Zuck -
Maureen Hilyard -
Nadira Alaraj -
Roberto Gaetano