Dear Sarmad, Thank you very much for your contribution. I think we certainly need to add both terms to our definitions page. I will wait for any responses to this email before doing that. Personally I believe in making things as simple and intuitive (e.g. close to what normally gets written on an envelope) as possible for those transliterating or translating and ideally the use of exonyms for at least countries and major cities would be part of that. Most English speakers do not know what Krung Thep is. If, however, we are unable to locate a user-friendly list of such exonyms, we may be driven to transliteration. At least that would be a very simple rule: “Transliterate the address using the national standard transliteration.” Incidentally, it is interesting that there are two possible Japanese pronunciations and transliterations of 日本 ‘Japan’: the formal Nippon, as on postage stamps, or the more commonly used Nihon. I am about to send a couple of other emails picking up points made by Amr, Peter Dernbach, Rudi et al. during the call. Regards, Chris. -- Research Associate in Linguistic Computing, Centre for Digital Humanities, UCL, Gower St, London WC1E 6BT Tel +44 20 7679 1599 (int 31599) ucl.ac.uk/dis/people/chrisdillon From: owner-gnso-contactinfo-pdp-wg@icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-contactinfo-pdp-wg@icann.org] On Behalf Of Sarmad Hussain Sent: 07 March 2014 03:36 To: gnso-contactinfo-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: RE: [gnso-contactinfo-pdp-wg] MP3 Translation and Transliteration of Contact Information PDP WG meeting - 06 March 2014 Dear All, Thank you for sharing the recordings and sorry for not being able to make to the call. Listening to the recording, regarding the excellent discussion by Chris on transliteration inaccuracies, I would like to contribute two terminology words and a comment specifically in the context of the discussion around Krung Thep and Bangkok (in which Bangkok is being recommended during the call). United Nation Group of Experts on Geographic Names (UNGEGN) suggests the following relevant terminology: Exonym is the name used in a specific language for a geographical feature situated outside the area where that language has official status, and differing in its form from the name used in the official language or languages of the area where the geographical feature is situated. Examples: Warsaw is the English exonym for Warszawa; Londres is French for London; Mailand is German for Milano. The officially romanized endonym Moskva for Москва is not an exonym, nor is the Pinyin form Beijing, while Peking is an exonym. Endonym is the name of a geographical feature in one of the languages occurring in that area where the feature is situated. Examples: Vārānasī (not Benares); Aachen (not Aix-la-Chapelle); Krung Thep (not Bangkok); al-Uqşur (not Luxor); Teverya (not Tiberias). And in addition, please note that The United Nations recommends minimizing the use of exonyms in international usage Thus, Bangkok is not the recommended form by the UN. The same applies to other examples from Taiwan discussed in the call, where transliteration/pinyin is recommended by the UN instead of the popular romanized versions. Thus, if we want to keep Bangkok (over the transliteration) we may want to document clear reasons why we want to diverge from this recommendation. Or other possibility is that we stick to the UN recommendation and use the transliterated forms (as this may be more consistent for all city names even if it means some names may not be in their popular exonyms). Regards, Sarmad From: owner-gnso-contactinfo-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:owner-gnso-contactinfo-pdp-wg@icann.org> [mailto:owner-gnso-contactinfo-pdp-wg@icann.org] On Behalf Of Terri Agnew Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 8:39 PM To: gnso-contactinfo-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-contactinfo-pdp-wg@icann.org> Cc: gnso-secs@icann.org<mailto:gnso-secs@icann.org> Subject: [gnso-contactinfo-pdp-wg] MP3 Translation and Transliteration of Contact Information PDP WG meeting - 06 March 2014 Dear All, Please find the MP3 recording for the Translation and Transliteration of Contact Information PDP Charter Drafting Team call held on Thursday 06 March at 14:00 UTC at: http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-transliteration-contact-20140306-en.mp3 On page: http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#mar<http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar%23mar> The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master Calendar page: http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/ Attendees: Jim Galvin - SSAC Ahkuputra Wanawit – GAC Mae Suchayapim Siriwat – GAC Peter Green - NCUC Petter Rindforth – IPC Rudi Vansnick – NPCO Chris Dillon – NCSG Pitinan Kooarmornpatana – GAC Jennifer Chung - RySG Wolf-Ulrich Knoben – ISPCP Amr Elsadar – NCUC Vinay Kumar Singh – Individual Peter Dernbach - IPC Apologies: Justine Chew – At-Large Ephriam Percy Kenyanito – NCUC ICANN staff: Julie Hedlund Amy Bivins Glen de Saint Gery Lars Hoffman Terri Agnew ** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list ** Wiki page: http://tinyurl.com/mpwxstx Thank you. Kind regards, Terri Agnew GNSO Secretariat gnso.secretariat@gnso.icann.org<mailto:gnso.secretariat@gnso.icann.org> http://gnso.icann.org Adobe Chat Transcript for Thursday 06 March 2014: Terri Agnew:Welcome to the Translation and Transliteration of Contact Information PDP Working Group on Thursday 06 March 2014 Chris Dillon:Hello, all Pitinan Kooarmornpatana:Hello Julie Hedlund:Hello everyone! Peter Green-CONAC:Hi, all VINAY KUMAR SINGH:Hi Rudi Vansnick:hu everyone Peter Dernbach:Hello everyone. Wanawit Ahkuputra:Sawasdee Jennifer Chung:Hi all Amr Elsadr:Hi all. Dialling in now. Mae Suchayapim Siriwat:hello Terri Agnew:Wolf Knoben has joined Wolf Knoben:Hello all Chris Dillon:https://community.icann.org/x/bgDRAg Julie Hedlund:@Chris: I can try to see if I can go to the URL and share my screen. Chris Dillon:Thanks Rudi Vansnick:https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/47251566/SO-AC%20.pdf?versi... Terri Agnew:Jim Galvin has joined audio Rudi Vansnick:sorry wrong link Amr Elsadr:I can't seem to find the final draft submitted by ALAC now. Rudi Vansnick:https://community.icann.org/x/bgDRAg Rudi Vansnick:it is at the bottom of the page ... Rudi Vansnick:exact Rudi Vansnick:sorry .. i was also on another tel call ... available now Rudi Vansnick:multi-tasking OK multi-listening not OK ;-) Amr Elsadr:@Rudi: I don't see why tranlation/transliteration would help manage the relationship between registrars and registrants?? How does that help? Rudi Vansnick:@Amr: in case of detailed information if issues are poping up with their domain name Lars Hoffmann:Just to remind the Group that the outcome of the EWG will form the basis for a subsequent GNSO PDP (see also http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/active/rds) Pitinan Kooarmornpatana:+1 to Peter & Amr Peter Dernbach:+1 @Amr Amr Elsadr:@Rudi: Why do registrars need this info translated/transliterated to deal with popping up issues? I still don't see the association. Rudi Vansnick:if the registrar is not fro msame region and can not read the IDN data Amr Elsadr:@Rudi: Registrars are not required to provide services in all languages. If they do, it's up to them to be able to communicate with their customers. However, why would a registrar in Korea providing services in Korean for a Korean IDN be required to translate contact information?? Amr Elsadr:Just as an example? Amr Elsadr:@Chris: Sorry, but which question are we on? Rudi Vansnick:@AMR : 6 now Amr Elsadr:Thanks. :) Amr Elsadr:Is this a final ALAC statement? It doesn't seem to be. Amr Elsadr:That comment makes no sense to me!! Rudi Vansnick:@Amr : this is quite a normal reaction from the EC Rudi Vansnick:protecting the user/consumer is at high level of priority Rudi Vansnick:especially by commissioner Kroes Amr Elsadr:Although I don't agree with the Thai GAC rep's comment, it does make sense as an opinion. Rudi Vansnick:i will have to leave the call 5 minutes befor ethe hour as I'm chairing another call just after Amr Elsadr:Just that i agree with Kathy. Amr Elsadr:I would like to get input from registrars on this topic. They have far more experience than anyone else does on verification/validation practices. Pitinan Kooarmornpatana:The suggestion would be each local language would need to most proper reference to refer to Amr Elsadr:If I'm not mistaken, the UPU addressing system is the standard for display of addresses in the 2013 RAA. Amr Elsadr:Just for the formatting. Amr Elsadr:I agree that it is cumbersome. Amr Elsadr:Especially if there will be a policy for tranlation/transliteration. Peter Dernbach:Thanks Chris, Rudi and All! Julie Hedlund:Thank you everyone! Amr Elsadr:Thanks all. Jennifer Chung:Thank you Chris, thank you all. Pitinan Kooarmornpatana:Thanks all Chris Dillon:Thank you all. Mae Suchayapim Siriwat:thank you

Dear Chris, Thanks for this. I did not intend to suggest we need to send another letter in such quick succession. I think including information in the wiki that clarifies that a future DNRD-DS is likely to support different languages or scripts may help clarify the matter, as it appears from some of the responses we have received that there may be some misunderstanding about what issues the WG is, and is not, addressing. Cheers, Peter <http://www.winklerpartners.com/> Peter J.Dernbach 譚璧德 Partner 合夥律師(外國法事務律師) *T* 886 (0)2 2311 2345 # 222 *F* 886 (0)2 2311 2688 www.winklerpartners.com pdernbach@winklerpartners.com ------------------------------ NOTICE: This email and any attachments contain private, confidential and privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not use, copy or distribute the contents and are requested to delete them and to notify the sender. 本電子郵件及其附件含有私有、機密、依法受特別保護之資料，僅供意定之收件人使用。若您並非所意定之收件人，即不得予以使用、重製或散布，並請刪除其內容，並通知寄件人。 On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 5:31 PM, Dillon, Chris <c.dillon@ucl.ac.uk> wrote:

Dear Peter,

This is just to pick up an issue you raised during yesterday’s call.

Our charter does mention a future DNRD-DS in different languages or scripts on p.3. However, this was not an aspect raised in the letters we sent to ACs and SOs.

As I mentioned I would prefer not to send a third letter to them in such quick succession. Fortunately, when I wrote to the ACs and SOs for the second time I did refer them to our wiki and so I could put a line there stressing that a future DNRD-DS is likely to support different languages or scripts.

Regards,

Chris.

--

Research Associate in Linguistic Computing, Centre for Digital Humanities, UCL, Gower St, London WC1E 6BT Tel +44 20 7679 1599 (int 31599) ucl.ac.uk/dis/people/chrisdillon

Hi Chris, Apologies for the slow response. On Mar 7, 2014, at 10:23 AM, Dillon, Chris <c.dillon@ucl.ac.uk> wrote: [SNIP]

That said, Amr’s point about our needing to stress more the desirability of translation and/or transliteration is very important: For example, “Do we feel that all contact information in all gTLD registries for all registrants should be translated and/or transliterated for the purpose of WHOIS look-up?”

As Rudi mentioned, the consensus is basically that it should, although Kathy Kleiman's post on the NCSG-Discuss mailing list (5 March, 2014) https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=44960127 highlights that translation and/or transliteration could add to the financial burden of registrants.

Is there consensus that translation/transliteration is desirable?? If so, I am in the minority opposing this consensus. So far, I have yet to see one convincing reason to make me think that it is (desirable). Could someone please point one or more out to me?? I’m starting to think that I’ve missed something. Thanks. Amr