UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool
Dear all, Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39. Apologies again for the inadvertent omission they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I¹ll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan
Hello Todd and everyone,
Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list!
Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members¹ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don¹t replace WG members¹ reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG¹s/Sub Team¹s eagle eyes is the best arrangement.
Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I¹ve taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don¹t believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I¹ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure.
On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd¹s suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd¹s initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn¹t address either so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate).
BTW, Todd, maybe it¹s my machine or more likely that I haven¹t looked through it in detail, but I¹m not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated . ?
Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way!
Cheers Mary
Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan
Am I the first to try this out? Cool.
As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was helpful to illustrate where we¹ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn might help us decide what we¹ll need to do to get there. Specifically, I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I¹d recommend that we do the same. Here are the two that I¹d propose:
1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. Presumably this group would present on:
· How many of these comments were there?
· Who did they come from?
· What arguments did they make?
· What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions of the Initial Report beyond Annex E?
2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. Presumably this group would present on:
· How many of these comments were there?
· Who did they come from?
· What arguments did they make?
· What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address the arguments raised in these comments?
I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it will help our sub-team ³divide and conquer² the work that we have before us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I¹m not really sure how we¹d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose and/or publish absent a court order isn¹t arguing for changes to Annex E; it¹s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether.
With those two buckets in mind, I¹ve taken a first pass through the comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to make sure that they agree with how I¹ve tentatively divided the comments? Once we¹re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some members want to tackle the third ³unclear² category) to start reviewing the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other questions that anybody wants to suggest).
Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was compiled? I¹m just curious because I want to make sure that our sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For example, I know that Turner¹s comment (available here: http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnSR7.pd... ) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn¹t included in the attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted it. J So I want to make sure that there aren¹t other comments on Annex E that we also ought to be reviewing.
Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody.
Todd.
Todd D. Williams Counsel Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. One CNN Center, 10 North Atlanta, Georgia 30303 P: 404-827-2234 F: 404-827-1994 todd.williams@turner.com <mailto:todd.williams@turner.com>
· Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E.
1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach of material service terms such as Internet abuse) 2) Google 3) 1&1 Internet SE 4) Access Now 5) Endurance Int¹l Group 6) Jeff Wheelhouse 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service terms such as net abuse) 8) Greg McMullen 9) Evelyn Aya Snow 10) Ralf Haring 11) Liam 12) Dr M Klinefelter 13) Sam 14) Dan M 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas 16) Not your business 17) Simon Kissane 18) TS 19) Cort Wee 20) Alex Xu 21) Kenneth Godwin 22) Shahed Ahmmed 23) Sebastian Broussier 24) Andrew Merenbach 25) Finn Ellis 26) Aaron Holmes 27) Michael Ekstrand 28) Homer 29) Donuts 30) Michael Ho 31) Key Systems * Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework. 1) BC 2) MPAA 3) ISPCP 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge 5) INTA 6) IACC 7) NCSG 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas 9) Cyberinvasion 10) Phil Crooker 11) Aaron Myers 12) Cui (ADNDRC) 13) Mike Fewings 14) Name withheld 15) Gary Miller 16) Byunghoon Choi 17) Reid Baker 18) Nick O¹Dell 19) Time Warner 20) RIAA & IFPI 21) IPC 22) Thomas Smoonlock 23) Vanda Scartezini 24) Tim Kramer * Bucket Three: unclear. 1) Sven Slootweg 2) Brendan Conniff 3) Marc Schauber 4) Aaron Mason 5) Kevin Szprychel 6) Christopher 7) James Ford 8) Shantanu Gupta 9) Christopher Smith 10) Private 11) Robert Lukitsh 12) Adam Miller 13) Charles 14) Aaron Dalton 15) Stephen Black Wolf 16) Ian McNeil 17) Adam Creighton 18) Arthur Zonnenberg 19) Anand S. 20) Lucas Stadler 21) Alan
Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion. Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled: /ICANN- Respect Our Privacy./ All of these comments contain a clear call: /*- No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, *//* *//*regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law *//* *//*enforcement agency. */ Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool? Best and tx, Kathy :
Dear all,
Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into _ROW 19 for the first question/topic_ (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and _ROW 7 for the second question/topic_ (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39.
Apologies again for the inadvertent omission – they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I’ll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly.
Thanks and cheers Mary
Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan
Hello Todd and everyone,
Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list!
Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members’ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don’t replace WG members’ reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG’s/Sub Team’s eagle eyes is the best arrangement.
Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I’ve taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don’t believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I’ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure.
On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd’s suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd’s initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn’t address either – so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate).
BTW, Todd, maybe it’s my machine or more likely that I haven’t looked through it in detail, but I’m not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated …. ?
Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way!
Cheers Mary
Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan
Am I the first to try this out? Cool.
As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was helpful to illustrate where we’ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn might help us decide what we’ll need to do to get there. Specifically, I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I’d recommend that we do the same. Here are the two that I’d propose:
1)Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. Presumably this group would present on:
·How many of these comments were there?
·Who did they come from?
·What arguments did they make?
·What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions of the Initial Report beyond Annex E?
2)Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. Presumably this group would present on:
·How many of these comments were there?
·Who did they come from?
·What arguments did they make?
·What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address the arguments raised in these comments?
I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it will help our sub-team “divide and conquer” the work that we have before us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I’m not really sure how we’d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose and/or publish absent a court order isn’t arguing for changes to Annex E; it’s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether.
With those two buckets in mind, I’ve taken a first pass through the comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to make sure that they agree with how I’ve tentatively divided the comments? Once we’re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some members want to tackle the third “unclear” category) to start reviewing the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other questions that anybody wants to suggest).
Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was compiled? I’m just curious because I want to make sure that our sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For example, I know that Turner’s comment (available here: http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnSR7.pd...) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn’t included in the attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted it. J So I want to make sure that there aren’t other comments on Annex E that we also ought to be reviewing.
Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody.
Todd.
Todd D. Williams
Counsel Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. One CNN Center, 10 North
Atlanta, Georgia 30303 P: 404-827-2234
F: 404-827-1994
todd.williams@turner.com <mailto:todd.williams@turner.com>
·Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E.
1)Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach of material service terms such as Internet abuse)
2)Google
3)1&1 Internet SE
4)Access Now
5)Endurance Int’l Group
6)Jeff Wheelhouse
7)EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service terms such as net abuse)
8)Greg McMullen
9)Evelyn Aya Snow
10)Ralf Haring
11)Liam
12)Dr M Klinefelter
13)Sam
14)Dan M
15)Adrian Valeriu Ispas
16)Not your business
17)Simon Kissane
18)TS
19)Cort Wee
20)Alex Xu
21)Kenneth Godwin
22)Shahed Ahmmed
23)Sebastian Broussier
24)Andrew Merenbach
25)Finn Ellis
26)Aaron Holmes
27)Michael Ekstrand
28)Homer
29)Donuts
30)Michael Ho
31)Key Systems
* Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework.
1)BC
2)MPAA
3)ISPCP
4)CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge
5)INTA
6)IACC
7)NCSG
8)Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas
9)Cyberinvasion
10)Phil Crooker
11)Aaron Myers
12)Cui (ADNDRC)
13)Mike Fewings
14)Name withheld
15)Gary Miller
16)Byunghoon Choi
17)Reid Baker
18)Nick O’Dell
19)Time Warner
20)RIAA & IFPI
21)IPC
22)Thomas Smoonlock
23)Vanda Scartezini
24)Tim Kramer
* Bucket Three: unclear.
1)Sven Slootweg
2)Brendan Conniff
3)Marc Schauber
4)Aaron Mason
5)Kevin Szprychel
6)Christopher
7)James Ford
8)Shantanu Gupta
9)Christopher Smith
10)Private
11)Robert Lukitsh
12)Adam Miller
13)Charles
14)Aaron Dalton
15)Stephen Black Wolf
16)Ian McNeil
17)Adam Creighton
18)Arthur Zonnenberg
19)Anand S.
20)Lucas Stadler
21)Alan
_______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3
Hi again Kathy and all sorry for any confusion; I¹d sent my other email referencing the comment below before seeing your email! In any event, hopefully my other email is helpful to this Sub Team as you proceed with your review and analysis. Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com> Date: Monday, August 3, 2015 at 18:44 To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion.
Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All of these comments contain a clear call: - No one¹s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency.
Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool?
Best and tx, Kathy
:
Dear all,
Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39.
Apologies again for the inadvertent omission they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I¹ll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly.
Thanks and cheers Mary
Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan
Hello Todd and everyone,
Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list!
Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members¹ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don¹t replace WG members¹ reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG¹s/Sub Team¹s eagle eyes is the best arrangement.
Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I¹ve taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don¹t believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I¹ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure.
On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd¹s suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd¹s initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn¹t address either so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate).
BTW, Todd, maybe it¹s my machine or more likely that I haven¹t looked through it in detail, but I¹m not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated . ?
Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way!
Cheers Mary
Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan
Am I the first to try this out? Cool.
As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was helpful to illustrate where we¹ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn might help us decide what we¹ll need to do to get there. Specifically, I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I¹d recommend that we do the same. Here are the two that I¹d propose:
1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. Presumably this group would present on:
· How many of these comments were there?
· Who did they come from?
· What arguments did they make?
· What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions of the Initial Report beyond Annex E?
2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. Presumably this group would present on:
· How many of these comments were there?
· Who did they come from?
· What arguments did they make?
· What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address the arguments raised in these comments?
I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it will help our sub-team ³divide and conquer² the work that we have before us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I¹m not really sure how we¹d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose and/or publish absent a court order isn¹t arguing for changes to Annex E; it¹s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether.
With those two buckets in mind, I¹ve taken a first pass through the comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to make sure that they agree with how I¹ve tentatively divided the comments? Once we¹re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some members want to tackle the third ³unclear² category) to start reviewing the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other questions that anybody wants to suggest).
Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was compiled? I¹m just curious because I want to make sure that our sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For example, I know that Turner¹s comment (available here: http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnSR7.p df) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn¹t included in the attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted it. J So I want to make sure that there aren¹t other comments on Annex E that we also ought to be reviewing.
Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody.
Todd.
Todd D. Williams Counsel Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. One CNN Center, 10 North Atlanta, Georgia 30303 P: 404-827-2234 F: 404-827-1994 todd.williams@turner.com <mailto:todd.williams@turner.com>
· Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E.
1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach of material service terms such as Internet abuse) 2) Google 3) 1&1 Internet SE 4) Access Now 5) Endurance Int¹l Group 6) Jeff Wheelhouse 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service terms such as net abuse) 8) Greg McMullen 9) Evelyn Aya Snow 10) Ralf Haring 11) Liam 12) Dr M Klinefelter 13) Sam 14) Dan M 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas 16) Not your business 17) Simon Kissane 18) TS 19) Cort Wee 20) Alex Xu 21) Kenneth Godwin 22) Shahed Ahmmed 23) Sebastian Broussier 24) Andrew Merenbach 25) Finn Ellis 26) Aaron Holmes 27) Michael Ekstrand 28) Homer 29) Donuts 30) Michael Ho 31) Key Systems * Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework. 1) BC 2) MPAA 3) ISPCP 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge 5) INTA 6) IACC 7) NCSG 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas 9) Cyberinvasion 10) Phil Crooker 11) Aaron Myers 12) Cui (ADNDRC) 13) Mike Fewings 14) Name withheld 15) Gary Miller 16) Byunghoon Choi 17) Reid Baker 18) Nick O¹Dell 19) Time Warner 20) RIAA & IFPI 21) IPC 22) Thomas Smoonlock 23) Vanda Scartezini 24) Tim Kramer * Bucket Three: unclear. 1) Sven Slootweg 2) Brendan Conniff 3) Marc Schauber 4) Aaron Mason 5) Kevin Szprychel 6) Christopher 7) James Ford 8) Shantanu Gupta 9) Christopher Smith 10) Private 11) Robert Lukitsh 12) Adam Miller 13) Charles 14) Aaron Dalton 15) Stephen Black Wolf 16) Ian McNeil 17) Adam Creighton 18) Arthur Zonnenberg 19) Anand S. 20) Lucas Stadler 21) Alan
_______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.orghttps://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3
Tx Mary, I don't think there is any doubt but that we have to include the many comments that arrived to us in template submissions. These are just a different way of submitting comments, but certainly not an invalid way. So thanks for your posting your note to the group yesterday; we are on the same wavelength! How quickly can we can add these comments to the review tool? Many thanks, Kathy :
Hi again Kathy and all – sorry for any confusion; I’d sent my other email referencing the comment below before seeing your email! In any event, hopefully my other email is helpful to this Sub Team as you proceed with your review and analysis.
Cheers Mary
Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com <mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>> Date: Monday, August 3, 2015 at 18:44 To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion.
Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled: /ICANN- Respect Our Privacy./ All of these comments contain a clear call: /*- No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, *//* *//*regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law *//* *//*enforcement agency. */
Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool?
Best and tx, Kathy
:
Dear all,
Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into _ROW 19 for the first question/topic_ (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and _ROW 7 for the second question/topic_ (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39.
Apologies again for the inadvertent omission – they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I’ll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly.
Thanks and cheers Mary
Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan
Hello Todd and everyone,
Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list!
Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members’ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don’t replace WG members’ reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG’s/Sub Team’s eagle eyes is the best arrangement.
Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I’ve taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don’t believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I’ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure.
On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd’s suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd’s initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn’t address either – so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate).
BTW, Todd, maybe it’s my machine or more likely that I haven’t looked through it in detail, but I’m not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated …. ?
Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way!
Cheers Mary
Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan
Am I the first to try this out? Cool.
As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was helpful to illustrate where we’ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn might help us decide what we’ll need to do to get there. Specifically, I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I’d recommend that we do the same. Here are the two that I’d propose:
1)Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. Presumably this group would present on:
·How many of these comments were there?
·Who did they come from?
·What arguments did they make?
·What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions of the Initial Report beyond Annex E?
2)Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. Presumably this group would present on:
·How many of these comments were there?
·Who did they come from?
·What arguments did they make?
·What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address the arguments raised in these comments?
I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it will help our sub-team “divide and conquer” the work that we have before us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I’m not really sure how we’d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose and/or publish absent a court order isn’t arguing for changes to Annex E; it’s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether.
With those two buckets in mind, I’ve taken a first pass through the comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to make sure that they agree with how I’ve tentatively divided the comments? Once we’re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some members want to tackle the third “unclear” category) to start reviewing the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other questions that anybody wants to suggest).
Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was compiled? I’m just curious because I want to make sure that our sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For example, I know that Turner’s comment (available here: http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnSR7.pd...) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn’t included in the attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted it. J So I want to make sure that there aren’t other comments on Annex E that we also ought to be reviewing.
Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody.
Todd.
Todd D. Williams
Counsel Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. One CNN Center, 10 North
Atlanta, Georgia 30303 P: 404-827-2234
F: 404-827-1994
todd.williams@turner.com <mailto:todd.williams@turner.com>
·Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E.
1)Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach of material service terms such as Internet abuse)
2)Google
3)1&1 Internet SE
4)Access Now
5)Endurance Int’l Group
6)Jeff Wheelhouse
7)EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service terms such as net abuse)
8)Greg McMullen
9)Evelyn Aya Snow
10)Ralf Haring
11)Liam
12)Dr M Klinefelter
13)Sam
14)Dan M
15)Adrian Valeriu Ispas
16)Not your business
17)Simon Kissane
18)TS
19)Cort Wee
20)Alex Xu
21)Kenneth Godwin
22)Shahed Ahmmed
23)Sebastian Broussier
24)Andrew Merenbach
25)Finn Ellis
26)Aaron Holmes
27)Michael Ekstrand
28)Homer
29)Donuts
30)Michael Ho
31)Key Systems
* Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework.
1)BC
2)MPAA
3)ISPCP
4)CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge
5)INTA
6)IACC
7)NCSG
8)Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas
9)Cyberinvasion
10)Phil Crooker
11)Aaron Myers
12)Cui (ADNDRC)
13)Mike Fewings
14)Name withheld
15)Gary Miller
16)Byunghoon Choi
17)Reid Baker
18)Nick O’Dell
19)Time Warner
20)RIAA & IFPI
21)IPC
22)Thomas Smoonlock
23)Vanda Scartezini
24)Tim Kramer
* Bucket Three: unclear.
1)Sven Slootweg
2)Brendan Conniff
3)Marc Schauber
4)Aaron Mason
5)Kevin Szprychel
6)Christopher
7)James Ford
8)Shantanu Gupta
9)Christopher Smith
10)Private
11)Robert Lukitsh
12)Adam Miller
13)Charles
14)Aaron Dalton
15)Stephen Black Wolf
16)Ian McNeil
17)Adam Creighton
18)Arthur Zonnenberg
19)Anand S.
20)Lucas Stadler
21)Alan
_______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.orghttps://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3
_______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3
Hi Everyone First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so. The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from. The second is one I’d like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way. My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket) The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are. My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I’d suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex. I”ll be having a look at that third category My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not. Happy to discuss Holly On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com> wrote:
Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion.
Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All of these comments contain a clear call: - No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency.
Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool?
Best and tx, Kathy
:
Dear all,
Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39.
Apologies again for the inadvertent omission – they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I’ll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly.
Thanks and cheers Mary
Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan
Hello Todd and everyone,
Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list!
Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members’ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don’t replace WG members’ reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG’s/Sub Team’s eagle eyes is the best arrangement.
Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I’ve taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don’t believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I’ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure.
On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd’s suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd’s initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn’t address either – so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate).
BTW, Todd, maybe it’s my machine or more likely that I haven’t looked through it in detail, but I’m not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated …. ?
Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way!
Cheers Mary
Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan
Am I the first to try this out? Cool.
As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was helpful to illustrate where we’ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn might help us decide what we’ll need to do to get there. Specifically, I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I’d recommend that we do the same. Here are the two that I’d propose:
1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions of the Initial Report beyond Annex E? 2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address the arguments raised in these comments?
I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it will help our sub-team “divide and conquer” the work that we have before us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I’m not really sure how we’d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose and/or publish absent a court order isn’t arguing for changes to Annex E; it’s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether.
With those two buckets in mind, I’ve taken a first pass through the comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to make sure that they agree with how I’ve tentatively divided the comments? Once we’re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some members want to tackle the third “unclear” category) to start reviewing the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other questions that anybody wants to suggest).
Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was compiled? I’m just curious because I want to make sure that our sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For example, I know that Turner’s comment (available here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnSR7.pd...) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn’t included in the attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted it. J So I want to make sure that there aren’t other comments on Annex E that we also ought to be reviewing.
Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody.
Todd.
Todd D. Williams Counsel Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. One CNN Center, 10 North Atlanta, Georgia 30303 P: 404-827-2234 F: 404-827-1994 todd.williams@turner.com
· Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E. 1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach of material service terms such as Internet abuse) 2) Google 3) 1&1 Internet SE 4) Access Now 5) Endurance Int’l Group 6) Jeff Wheelhouse 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service terms such as net abuse) 8) Greg McMullen 9) Evelyn Aya Snow 10) Ralf Haring 11) Liam 12) Dr M Klinefelter 13) Sam 14) Dan M 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas 16) Not your business 17) Simon Kissane 18) TS 19) Cort Wee 20) Alex Xu 21) Kenneth Godwin 22) Shahed Ahmmed 23) Sebastian Broussier 24) Andrew Merenbach 25) Finn Ellis 26) Aaron Holmes 27) Michael Ekstrand 28) Homer 29) Donuts 30) Michael Ho 31) Key Systems Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework. 1) BC 2) MPAA 3) ISPCP 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge 5) INTA 6) IACC 7) NCSG 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas 9) Cyberinvasion 10) Phil Crooker 11) Aaron Myers 12) Cui (ADNDRC) 13) Mike Fewings 14) Name withheld 15) Gary Miller 16) Byunghoon Choi 17) Reid Baker 18) Nick O’Dell 19) Time Warner 20) RIAA & IFPI 21) IPC 22) Thomas Smoonlock 23) Vanda Scartezini 24) Tim Kramer Bucket Three: unclear. 1) Sven Slootweg 2) Brendan Conniff 3) Marc Schauber 4) Aaron Mason 5) Kevin Szprychel 6) Christopher 7) James Ford 8) Shantanu Gupta 9) Christopher Smith 10) Private 11) Robert Lukitsh 12) Adam Miller 13) Charles 14) Aaron Dalton 15) Stephen Black Wolf 16) Ian McNeil 17) Adam Creighton 18) Arthur Zonnenberg 19) Anand S. 20) Lucas Stadler 21) Alan
_______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3
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Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx!
Hi Everyone
First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so.
The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from.
==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever.
The second is one I’d like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way. ==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency”. (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?)
My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket)
The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are. ==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead!
My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I’d suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex.
==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category.
I”ll be having a look at that third category
My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not.
==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy
Happy to discuss
Holly
On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com <mailto:Kathy@kathykleiman.com>> wrote:
Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion.
Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled:/ICANN- Respect Our Privacy./All of these comments contain a clear call: /*- No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order,*//* *//*regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law*//* *//*enforcement agency.*/
Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool?
Best and tx, Kathy
:
Dear all,
Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into_ROW 19 for the first question/topic_(General Comments) on PAGE 16, and_ROW 7 for the second question/topic_(Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39.
Apologies again for the inadvertent omission – they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I’ll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly.
Thanks and cheers Mary
Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email:mary.wong@icann.org
From:<gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>> Date:Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 To:"Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject:Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan
Hello Todd and everyone,
Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list!
Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members’ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don’t replace WG members’ reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG’s/Sub Team’s eagle eyes is the best arrangement.
Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I’ve taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don’t believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I’ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure.
On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd’s suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd’s initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn’t address either – so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate).
BTW, Todd, maybe it’s my machine or more likely that I haven’t looked through it in detail, but I’m not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated …. ?
Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way!
Cheers Mary
Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email:mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
From:<gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date:Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 To:"gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject:[Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan
Am I the first to try this out? Cool. As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was helpful to illustrate where we’ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn might help us decide what we’ll need to do to get there. Specifically, I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I’d recommend that we do the same. Here are the two that I’d propose: 1)Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. Presumably this group would present on: ·How many of these comments were there? ·Who did they come from? ·What arguments did they make? ·What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions of the Initial Report beyond Annex E? 2)Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. Presumably this group would present on: ·How many of these comments were there? ·Who did they come from? ·What arguments did they make? ·What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address the arguments raised in these comments? I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it will help our sub-team “divide and conquer” the work that we have before us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I’m not really sure how we’d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose and/or publish absent a court order isn’t arguing for changes to Annex E; it’s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether. With those two buckets in mind, I’ve taken a first pass through the comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to make sure that they agree with how I’ve tentatively divided the comments? Once we’re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some members want to tackle the third “unclear” category) to start reviewing the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other questions that anybody wants to suggest). Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit ofinformation on the methodology of how the attached Word document was compiled? I’m just curious because I want to make sure that our sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For example, I know that Turner’s comment (available here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnSR7.pd...) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn’t included in the attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted it. J So I want to make sure that there aren’t other comments on Annex E that we also ought to be reviewing. Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody.
Todd. Todd D. Williams Counsel Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. One CNN Center, 10 North Atlanta, Georgia 30303 P: 404-827-2234 F: 404-827-1994 todd.williams@turner.com <mailto:todd.williams@turner.com> ·Bucket One:rejects the premise of Annex E. 1)Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach of material service terms such as Internet abuse) 2)Google 3)1&1 Internet SE 4)Access Now 5)Endurance Int’l Group 6)Jeff Wheelhouse 7)EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service terms such as net abuse) 8)Greg McMullen 9)Evelyn Aya Snow 10)Ralf Haring 11)Liam 12)Dr M Klinefelter 13)Sam 14)Dan M 15)Adrian Valeriu Ispas 16)Not your business 17)Simon Kissane 18)TS 19)Cort Wee 20)Alex Xu 21)Kenneth Godwin 22)Shahed Ahmmed 23)Sebastian Broussier 24)Andrew Merenbach 25)Finn Ellis 26)Aaron Holmes 27)Michael Ekstrand 28)Homer 29)Donuts 30)Michael Ho 31)Key Systems
* Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework.
1)BC 2)MPAA 3)ISPCP 4)CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge 5)INTA 6)IACC 7)NCSG 8)Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas 9)Cyberinvasion 10)Phil Crooker 11)Aaron Myers 12)Cui (ADNDRC) 13)Mike Fewings 14)Name withheld 15)Gary Miller 16)Byunghoon Choi 17)Reid Baker 18)Nick O’Dell 19)Time Warner 20)RIAA & IFPI 21)IPC 22)Thomas Smoonlock 23)Vanda Scartezini 24)Tim Kramer
* Bucket Three: unclear.
1)Sven Slootweg 2)Brendan Conniff 3)Marc Schauber 4)Aaron Mason 5)Kevin Szprychel 6)Christopher 7)James Ford 8)Shantanu Gupta 9)Christopher Smith 10)Private 11)Robert Lukitsh 12)Adam Miller 13)Charles 14)Aaron Dalton 15)Stephen Black Wolf 16)Ian McNeil 17)Adam Creighton 18)Arthur Zonnenberg 19)Anand S. 20)Lucas Stadler 21)Alan
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Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I've been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I've attached - I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that): * First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG's proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue. * Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG's proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the "Respect our Privacy" submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly's point though that in this paragraph we should note that the "Respect our Privacy" submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google's, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, and didn't accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice. * Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG's proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a "higher standard." From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary. * Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we're not sure what to do with. That's how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below: * Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn't touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I'm pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4's work). Not that I'm not interested in LE - just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams. * In response to Mary's email (attached): I agree that I'm not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we're certainly planning to do), then I don't see why we'd need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that's fine. I just don't see how that helps us get to our final work product. * Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team's role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that - OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we do about that? - I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I'm just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier. Thanks all! From: gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net> Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx! Hi Everyone First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so. The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from. ==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever. The second is one I'd like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way. ==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one's personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency". (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?) My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket) The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are. ==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead! My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I'd suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex. ==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category. I"ll be having a look at that third category My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not. ==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy Happy to discuss Holly On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:Kathy@kathykleiman.com>> wrote: Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion. Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All of these comments contain a clear call: - No one's personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency. Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool? Best and tx, Kathy : Dear all, Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39. Apologies again for the inadvertent omission - they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I'll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Hello Todd and everyone, Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list! Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members' questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don't replace WG members' reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG's/Sub Team's eagle eyes is the best arrangement. Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I've taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don't believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I've compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure. On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd's suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd's initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn't address either - so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate). BTW, Todd, maybe it's my machine or more likely that I haven't looked through it in detail, but I'm not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated .... ? Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way! Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Am I the first to try this out? Cool. As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was helpful to illustrate where we'll need to be by 8-11, which in turn might help us decide what we'll need to do to get there. Specifically, I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I'd recommend that we do the same. Here are the two that I'd propose: 1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. Presumably this group would present on: * How many of these comments were there? * Who did they come from? * What arguments did they make? * What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions of the Initial Report beyond Annex E? 2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. Presumably this group would present on: * How many of these comments were there? * Who did they come from? * What arguments did they make? * What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address the arguments raised in these comments? I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it will help our sub-team "divide and conquer" the work that we have before us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I'm not really sure how we'd otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose and/or publish absent a court order isn't arguing for changes to Annex E; it's arguing to scrap Annex E altogether. With those two buckets in mind, I've taken a first pass through the comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to make sure that they agree with how I've tentatively divided the comments? Once we're comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some members want to tackle the third "unclear" category) to start reviewing the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other questions that anybody wants to suggest). Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was compiled? I'm just curious because I want to make sure that our sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For example, I know that Turner's comment (available here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnSR7.pd...) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn't included in the attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted it. :) So I want to make sure that there aren't other comments on Annex E that we also ought to be reviewing. Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody. Todd. Todd D. Williams Counsel Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. One CNN Center, 10 North Atlanta, Georgia 30303 P: 404-827-2234 F: 404-827-1994 todd.williams@turner.com<mailto:todd.williams@turner.com> * Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E. 1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach of material service terms such as Internet abuse) 2) Google 3) 1&1 Internet SE 4) Access Now 5) Endurance Int'l Group 6) Jeff Wheelhouse 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service terms such as net abuse) 8) Greg McMullen 9) Evelyn Aya Snow 10) Ralf Haring 11) Liam 12) Dr M Klinefelter 13) Sam 14) Dan M 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas 16) Not your business 17) Simon Kissane 18) TS 19) Cort Wee 20) Alex Xu 21) Kenneth Godwin 22) Shahed Ahmmed 23) Sebastian Broussier 24) Andrew Merenbach 25) Finn Ellis 26) Aaron Holmes 27) Michael Ekstrand 28) Homer 29) Donuts 30) Michael Ho 31) Key Systems * Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework. 1) BC 2) MPAA 3) ISPCP 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge 5) INTA 6) IACC 7) NCSG 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas 9) Cyberinvasion 10) Phil Crooker 11) Aaron Myers 12) Cui (ADNDRC) 13) Mike Fewings 14) Name withheld 15) Gary Miller 16) Byunghoon Choi 17) Reid Baker 18) Nick O'Dell 19) Time Warner 20) RIAA & IFPI 21) IPC 22) Thomas Smoonlock 23) Vanda Scartezini 24) Tim Kramer * Bucket Three: unclear. 1) Sven Slootweg 2) Brendan Conniff 3) Marc Schauber 4) Aaron Mason 5) Kevin Szprychel 6) Christopher 7) James Ford 8) Shantanu Gupta 9) Christopher Smith 10) Private 11) Robert Lukitsh 12) Adam Miller 13) Charles 14) Aaron Dalton 15) Stephen Black Wolf 16) Ian McNeil 17) Adam Creighton 18) Arthur Zonnenberg 19) Anand S. 20) Lucas Stadler 21) Alan _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3
Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I¹ll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG¹s preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though ³attached² to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I¹m afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team¹s Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you¹re working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG¹s preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates. I¹m happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I¹m happy to do that (per Kathy¹s suggestion on the call today) while I¹m doing the current update anyway. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com> Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net> Cc: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I¹ve been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I¹ve attached I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that):
· First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG¹s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue.
· Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG¹s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the ³Respect our Privacy² submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly¹s point though that in this paragraph we should note that the ³Respect our Privacy² submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google¹s, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, and didn¹t accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice.
· Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG¹s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that ³verifiable evidence of wrongdoing² is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a ³higher standard.² From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary.
· Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we¹re not sure what to do with.
That¹s how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below:
· Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn¹t touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I¹m pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4¹s work). Not that I¹m not interested in LE just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams.
· In response to Mary¹s email (attached): I agree that I¹m not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we¹re certainly planning to do), then I don¹t see why we¹d need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that¹s fine. I just don¹t see how that helps us get to our final work product.
· Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team¹s role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we do about that? I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I¹m just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier.
Thanks all!
From: gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net> Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx!
Hi Everyone
First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so.
The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from.
==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever.
The second is one I¹d like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way. ==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one¹s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency². (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?)
My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket)
The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are.
==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead!
My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I¹d suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex.
==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category.
I²ll be having a look at that third category
My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not.
==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy
Happy to discuss
Holly
On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com> wrote:
Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion.
Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All of these comments contain a clear call: - No one¹s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency.
Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool?
Best and tx, Kathy
:
Dear all,
Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39.
Apologies again for the inadvertent omission they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I¹ll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly.
Thanks and cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>
on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com> >, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> " <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan
Hello Todd and everyone,
Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list!
Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members¹ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don¹t replace WG members¹ reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG¹s/Sub Team¹s eagle eyes is the best arrangement.
Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I¹ve taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don¹t believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I¹ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure.
On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd¹s suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd¹s initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn¹t address either so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate).
BTW, Todd, maybe it¹s my machine or more likely that I haven¹t looked through it in detail, but I¹m not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated . ?
Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way!
Cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> > on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com> > Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> " <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan
Am I the first to try this out? Cool.
As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was helpful to illustrate where we¹ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn might help us decide what we¹ll need to do to get there. Specifically, I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I¹d recommend that we do the same. Here are the two that I¹d propose:
1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. Presumably this group would present on:
· How many of these comments were there?
· Who did they come from?
· What arguments did they make?
· What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions of the Initial Report beyond Annex E?
2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. Presumably this group would present on:
· How many of these comments were there?
· Who did they come from?
· What arguments did they make?
· What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address the arguments raised in these comments?
I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it will help our sub-team ³divide and conquer² the work that we have before us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I¹m not really sure how we¹d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose and/or publish absent a court order isn¹t arguing for changes to Annex E; it¹s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether.
With those two buckets in mind, I¹ve taken a first pass through the comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to make sure that they agree with how I¹ve tentatively divided the comments? Once we¹re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some members want to tackle the third ³unclear² category) to start reviewing the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other questions that anybody wants to suggest).
Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was compiled? I¹m just curious because I want to make sure that our sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For example, I know that Turner¹s comment (available here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3V cnSR7.pdf <http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnSR 7.pdf> ) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn¹t included in the attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted it. J So I want to make sure that there aren¹t other comments on Annex E that we also ought to be reviewing.
Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody.
Todd.
Todd D. Williams
Counsel Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. One CNN Center, 10 North
Atlanta, Georgia 30303 P: 404-827-2234
F: 404-827-1994
todd.williams@turner.com
· Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E.
1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach of material service terms such as Internet abuse)
2) Google
3) 1&1 Internet SE
4) Access Now
5) Endurance Int¹l Group
6) Jeff Wheelhouse
7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service terms such as net abuse)
8) Greg McMullen
9) Evelyn Aya Snow
10) Ralf Haring
11) Liam
12) Dr M Klinefelter
13) Sam
14) Dan M
15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas
16) Not your business
17) Simon Kissane
18) TS
19) Cort Wee
20) Alex Xu
21) Kenneth Godwin
22) Shahed Ahmmed
23) Sebastian Broussier
24) Andrew Merenbach
25) Finn Ellis
26) Aaron Holmes
27) Michael Ekstrand
28) Homer
29) Donuts
30) Michael Ho
31) Key Systems * Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework. 1) BC
2) MPAA
3) ISPCP
4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge
5) INTA
6) IACC
7) NCSG
8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas
9) Cyberinvasion
10) Phil Crooker
11) Aaron Myers
12) Cui (ADNDRC)
13) Mike Fewings
14) Name withheld
15) Gary Miller
16) Byunghoon Choi
17) Reid Baker
18) Nick O¹Dell
19) Time Warner
20) RIAA & IFPI
21) IPC
22) Thomas Smoonlock
23) Vanda Scartezini
24) Tim Kramer * Bucket Three: unclear. 1) Sven Slootweg
2) Brendan Conniff
3) Marc Schauber
4) Aaron Mason
5) Kevin Szprychel
6) Christopher
7) James Ford
8) Shantanu Gupta
9) Christopher Smith
10) Private
11) Robert Lukitsh
12) Adam Miller
13) Charles
14) Aaron Dalton
15) Stephen Black Wolf
16) Ian McNeil
17) Adam Creighton
18) Arthur Zonnenberg
19) Anand S.
20) Lucas Stadler
21) Alan
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Tx Mary! Kathy :
Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone – this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I’ll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG’s preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though “attached” to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I’m afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team’s Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you’re working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can – with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG’s preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates.
I’m happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I’m happy to do that (per Kathy’s suggestion on the call today) while I’m doing the current update anyway.
Thanks and cheers Mary
Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com <mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net <mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I’ve been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I’ve attached – I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that):
·First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue.
·Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly’s point though that in this paragraph we should note that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google’s, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a _court order_, and didn’t accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice.
·Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that “verifiable evidence of wrongdoing” is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a “higher standard.” From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary.
·Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we’re not sure what to do with.
That’s how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below:
·Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn’t touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I’m pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4’s work). Not that I’m not interested in LE – just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams.
·In response to Mary’s email (attached): I agree that I’m not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we’re certainly planning to do), then I don’t see why we’d need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that’s fine. I just don’t see how that helps us get to our final work product.
·Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team’s role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that – OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we */do/* about that? – I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I’m just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier.
Thanks all!
*From:*gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Kathy Kleiman *Sent:* Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM *To:* Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net <mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> *Cc:* gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx!
Hi Everyone
First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so.
The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from.
==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever.
The second is one I’d like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way.
==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency”. (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?)
My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket)
The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are.
==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead!
My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I’d suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex.
==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category.
I”ll be having a look at that third category
My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not.
==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy
Happy to discuss
Holly
On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com <mailto:Kathy@kathykleiman.com>> wrote:
Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion.
Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled:/ICANN- Respect Our Privacy./All of these comments contain a clear call: */- No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency./*
Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool?
Best and tx, Kathy
:
Dear all,
Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into_ROW 19 for the first question/topic_(General Comments) on PAGE 16, and_ROW 7 for the second question/topic_(Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39.
Apologies again for the inadvertent omission – they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I’ll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly.
Thanks and cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email:mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
*From:*<gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>> *Date:*Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 *To:*"Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> *Subject:*Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan
Hello Todd and everyone,
Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list!
Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members’ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don’t replace WG members’ reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG’s/Sub Team’s eagle eyes is the best arrangement.
Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I’ve taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don’t believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I’ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure.
On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd’s suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd’s initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn’t address either – so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate).
BTW, Todd, maybe it’s my machine or more likely that I haven’t looked through it in detail, but I’m not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated …. ?
Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way!
Cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email:mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
*From:*<gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> *Date:*Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 *To:*"gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> *Subject:*[Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan
Am I the first to try this out? Cool.
As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was helpful to illustrate where we’ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn might help us decide what we’ll need to do to get there. Specifically, I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I’d recommend that we do the same. Here are the two that I’d propose:
1)Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. Presumably this group would present on:
·How many of these comments were there?
·Who did they come from?
·What arguments did they make?
·What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions of the Initial Report beyond Annex E?
2)Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. Presumably this group would present on:
·How many of these comments were there?
·Who did they come from?
·What arguments did they make?
·What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address the arguments raised in these comments?
I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it will help our sub-team “divide and conquer” the work that we have before us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I’m not really sure how we’d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose and/or publish absent a court order isn’t arguing for changes to Annex E; it’s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether.
With those two buckets in mind, I’ve taken a first pass through the comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to make sure that they agree with how I’ve tentatively divided the comments? Once we’re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some members want to tackle the third “unclear” category) to start reviewing the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other questions that anybody wants to suggest).
Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit ofinformation on the methodology of how the attached Word document was compiled? I’m just curious because I want to make sure that our sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For example, I know that Turner’s comment (available here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnSR7.pd...) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn’t included in the attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted it. JSo I want to make sure that there aren’t other comments on Annex E that we also ought to be reviewing.
Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody.
Todd.
Todd D. Williams
Counsel Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. One CNN Center, 10 North
Atlanta, Georgia 30303 P: 404-827-2234
F: 404-827-1994
todd.williams@turner.com <mailto:todd.williams@turner.com>
·Bucket One:rejects the premise of Annex E.
1)Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach of material service terms such as Internet abuse)
2)Google
3)1&1 Internet SE
4)Access Now
5)Endurance Int’l Group
6)Jeff Wheelhouse
7)EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service terms such as net abuse)
8)Greg McMullen
9)Evelyn Aya Snow
10)Ralf Haring
11)Liam
12)Dr M Klinefelter
13)Sam
14)Dan M
15)Adrian Valeriu Ispas
16)Not your business
17)Simon Kissane
18)TS
19)Cort Wee
20)Alex Xu
21)Kenneth Godwin
22)Shahed Ahmmed
23)Sebastian Broussier
24)Andrew Merenbach
25)Finn Ellis
26)Aaron Holmes
27)Michael Ekstrand
28)Homer
29)Donuts
30)Michael Ho
31)Key Systems
* Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework.
1)BC
2)MPAA
3)ISPCP
4)CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge
5)INTA
6)IACC
7)NCSG
8)Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas
9)Cyberinvasion
10)Phil Crooker
11)Aaron Myers
12)Cui (ADNDRC)
13)Mike Fewings
14)Name withheld
15)Gary Miller
16)Byunghoon Choi
17)Reid Baker
18)Nick O’Dell
19)Time Warner
20)RIAA & IFPI
21)IPC
22)Thomas Smoonlock
23)Vanda Scartezini
24)Tim Kramer
* Bucket Three: unclear.
1)Sven Slootweg
2)Brendan Conniff
3)Marc Schauber
4)Aaron Mason
5)Kevin Szprychel
6)Christopher
7)James Ford
8)Shantanu Gupta
9)Christopher Smith
10)Private
11)Robert Lukitsh
12)Adam Miller
13)Charles
14)Aaron Dalton
15)Stephen Black Wolf
16)Ian McNeil
17)Adam Creighton
18)Arthur Zonnenberg
19)Anand S.
20)Lucas Stadler
21)Alan
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Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I've added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks. From: gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Tx Mary! Kathy : Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone - this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I'll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG's preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though "attached" to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I'm afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team's Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you're working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can - with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG's preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates. I'm happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I'm happy to do that (per Kathy's suggestion on the call today) while I'm doing the current update anyway. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I've been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I've attached - I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that): * First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG's proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue. * Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG's proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the "Respect our Privacy" submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly's point though that in this paragraph we should note that the "Respect our Privacy" submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google's, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, and didn't accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice. * Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG's proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a "higher standard." From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary. * Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we're not sure what to do with. That's how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below: * Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn't touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I'm pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4's work). Not that I'm not interested in LE - just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams. * In response to Mary's email (attached): I agree that I'm not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we're certainly planning to do), then I don't see why we'd need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that's fine. I just don't see how that helps us get to our final work product. * Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team's role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that - OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we do about that? - I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I'm just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier. Thanks all! From: gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx! Hi Everyone First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so. The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from. ==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever. The second is one I'd like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way. ==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one's personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency". (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?) My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket) The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are. ==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead! My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I'd suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex. ==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category. I"ll be having a look at that third category My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not. ==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy Happy to discuss Holly On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:Kathy@kathykleiman.com>> wrote: Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion. Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All of these comments contain a clear call: - No one's personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency. Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool? Best and tx, Kathy : Dear all, Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39. Apologies again for the inadvertent omission - they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I'll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Hello Todd and everyone, Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list! Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members' questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don't replace WG members' reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG's/Sub Team's eagle eyes is the best arrangement. Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I've taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don't believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I've compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure. On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd's suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd's initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn't address either - so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate). BTW, Todd, maybe it's my machine or more likely that I haven't looked through it in detail, but I'm not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated .... ? Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way! Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Am I the first to try this out? Cool. As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was helpful to illustrate where we'll need to be by 8-11, which in turn might help us decide what we'll need to do to get there. Specifically, I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I'd recommend that we do the same. Here are the two that I'd propose: 1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. Presumably this group would present on: * How many of these comments were there? * Who did they come from? * What arguments did they make? * What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions of the Initial Report beyond Annex E? 2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. Presumably this group would present on: * How many of these comments were there? * Who did they come from? * What arguments did they make? * What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address the arguments raised in these comments? I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it will help our sub-team "divide and conquer" the work that we have before us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I'm not really sure how we'd otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose and/or publish absent a court order isn't arguing for changes to Annex E; it's arguing to scrap Annex E altogether. With those two buckets in mind, I've taken a first pass through the comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to make sure that they agree with how I've tentatively divided the comments? Once we're comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some members want to tackle the third "unclear" category) to start reviewing the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other questions that anybody wants to suggest). Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was compiled? I'm just curious because I want to make sure that our sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For example, I know that Turner's comment (available here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnSR7.pd...) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn't included in the attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted it. :) So I want to make sure that there aren't other comments on Annex E that we also ought to be reviewing. Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody. Todd. Todd D. Williams Counsel Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. One CNN Center, 10 North Atlanta, Georgia 30303 P: 404-827-2234 F: 404-827-1994 todd.williams@turner.com<mailto:todd.williams@turner.com> * Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E. 1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach of material service terms such as Internet abuse) 2) Google 3) 1&1 Internet SE 4) Access Now 5) Endurance Int'l Group 6) Jeff Wheelhouse 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service terms such as net abuse) 8) Greg McMullen 9) Evelyn Aya Snow 10) Ralf Haring 11) Liam 12) Dr M Klinefelter 13) Sam 14) Dan M 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas 16) Not your business 17) Simon Kissane 18) TS 19) Cort Wee 20) Alex Xu 21) Kenneth Godwin 22) Shahed Ahmmed 23) Sebastian Broussier 24) Andrew Merenbach 25) Finn Ellis 26) Aaron Holmes 27) Michael Ekstrand 28) Homer 29) Donuts 30) Michael Ho 31) Key Systems * Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework. 1) BC 2) MPAA 3) ISPCP 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge 5) INTA 6) IACC 7) NCSG 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas 9) Cyberinvasion 10) Phil Crooker 11) Aaron Myers 12) Cui (ADNDRC) 13) Mike Fewings 14) Name withheld 15) Gary Miller 16) Byunghoon Choi 17) Reid Baker 18) Nick O'Dell 19) Time Warner 20) RIAA & IFPI 21) IPC 22) Thomas Smoonlock 23) Vanda Scartezini 24) Tim Kramer * Bucket Three: unclear. 1) Sven Slootweg 2) Brendan Conniff 3) Marc Schauber 4) Aaron Mason 5) Kevin Szprychel 6) Christopher 7) James Ford 8) Shantanu Gupta 9) Christopher Smith 10) Private 11) Robert Lukitsh 12) Adam Miller 13) Charles 14) Aaron Dalton 15) Stephen Black Wolf 16) Ian McNeil 17) Adam Creighton 18) Arthur Zonnenberg 19) Anand S. 20) Lucas Stadler 21) Alan _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3
Whoops, I left out Jawala at the bottom, who should go in bucket two. Sorry. From: gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:01 AM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I've added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks. From: gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Tx Mary! Kathy : Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone - this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I'll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG's preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though "attached" to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I'm afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team's Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you're working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can - with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG's preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates. I'm happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I'm happy to do that (per Kathy's suggestion on the call today) while I'm doing the current update anyway. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I've been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I've attached - I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that): * First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG's proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue. * Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG's proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the "Respect our Privacy" submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly's point though that in this paragraph we should note that the "Respect our Privacy" submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google's, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, and didn't accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice. * Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG's proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a "higher standard." From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary. * Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we're not sure what to do with. That's how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below: * Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn't touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I'm pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4's work). Not that I'm not interested in LE - just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams. * In response to Mary's email (attached): I agree that I'm not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we're certainly planning to do), then I don't see why we'd need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that's fine. I just don't see how that helps us get to our final work product. * Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team's role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that - OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we do about that? - I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I'm just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier. Thanks all! From: gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx! Hi Everyone First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so. The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from. ==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever. The second is one I'd like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way. ==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one's personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency". (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?) My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket) The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are. ==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead! My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I'd suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex. ==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category. I"ll be having a look at that third category My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not. ==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy Happy to discuss Holly On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:Kathy@kathykleiman.com>> wrote: Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion. Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All of these comments contain a clear call: - No one's personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency. Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool? Best and tx, Kathy : Dear all, Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39. Apologies again for the inadvertent omission - they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I'll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Hello Todd and everyone, Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list! Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members' questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don't replace WG members' reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG's/Sub Team's eagle eyes is the best arrangement. Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I've taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don't believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I've compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure. On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd's suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd's initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn't address either - so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate). BTW, Todd, maybe it's my machine or more likely that I haven't looked through it in detail, but I'm not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated .... ? Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way! Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Am I the first to try this out? Cool. As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was helpful to illustrate where we'll need to be by 8-11, which in turn might help us decide what we'll need to do to get there. Specifically, I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I'd recommend that we do the same. Here are the two that I'd propose: 1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. Presumably this group would present on: * How many of these comments were there? * Who did they come from? * What arguments did they make? * What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions of the Initial Report beyond Annex E? 2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. Presumably this group would present on: * How many of these comments were there? * Who did they come from? * What arguments did they make? * What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address the arguments raised in these comments? I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it will help our sub-team "divide and conquer" the work that we have before us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I'm not really sure how we'd otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose and/or publish absent a court order isn't arguing for changes to Annex E; it's arguing to scrap Annex E altogether. With those two buckets in mind, I've taken a first pass through the comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to make sure that they agree with how I've tentatively divided the comments? Once we're comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some members want to tackle the third "unclear" category) to start reviewing the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other questions that anybody wants to suggest). Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was compiled? I'm just curious because I want to make sure that our sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For example, I know that Turner's comment (available here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnSR7.pd...) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn't included in the attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted it. :) So I want to make sure that there aren't other comments on Annex E that we also ought to be reviewing. Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody. Todd. Todd D. Williams Counsel Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. One CNN Center, 10 North Atlanta, Georgia 30303 P: 404-827-2234 F: 404-827-1994 todd.williams@turner.com<mailto:todd.williams@turner.com> * Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E. 1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach of material service terms such as Internet abuse) 2) Google 3) 1&1 Internet SE 4) Access Now 5) Endurance Int'l Group 6) Jeff Wheelhouse 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service terms such as net abuse) 8) Greg McMullen 9) Evelyn Aya Snow 10) Ralf Haring 11) Liam 12) Dr M Klinefelter 13) Sam 14) Dan M 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas 16) Not your business 17) Simon Kissane 18) TS 19) Cort Wee 20) Alex Xu 21) Kenneth Godwin 22) Shahed Ahmmed 23) Sebastian Broussier 24) Andrew Merenbach 25) Finn Ellis 26) Aaron Holmes 27) Michael Ekstrand 28) Homer 29) Donuts 30) Michael Ho 31) Key Systems * Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework. 1) BC 2) MPAA 3) ISPCP 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge 5) INTA 6) IACC 7) NCSG 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas 9) Cyberinvasion 10) Phil Crooker 11) Aaron Myers 12) Cui (ADNDRC) 13) Mike Fewings 14) Name withheld 15) Gary Miller 16) Byunghoon Choi 17) Reid Baker 18) Nick O'Dell 19) Time Warner 20) RIAA & IFPI 21) IPC 22) Thomas Smoonlock 23) Vanda Scartezini 24) Tim Kramer * Bucket Three: unclear. 1) Sven Slootweg 2) Brendan Conniff 3) Marc Schauber 4) Aaron Mason 5) Kevin Szprychel 6) Christopher 7) James Ford 8) Shantanu Gupta 9) Christopher Smith 10) Private 11) Robert Lukitsh 12) Adam Miller 13) Charles 14) Aaron Dalton 15) Stephen Black Wolf 16) Ian McNeil 17) Adam Creighton 18) Arthur Zonnenberg 19) Anand S. 20) Lucas Stadler 21) Alan _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3
Kathy: Attached is my first crack at our portion of the summary (on the Bucket Two comments). Let me know if you have any suggested edits, additions, subtractions, etc. Also, I've copied the entire sub-team mailing list on this email, for two reasons: 1) So that there is a transparent public record of any back-and-forth red-lining of the document that we may do; and 2) So that Sara and Holly for Bucket One, and Darcy for our miscellaneous bucket, can see what I envision for our summary report to the WG. If you all want to add your summaries to this one to make it consistent in terms of formatting, etc., feel free. I had one thought Sara and Holly for Bucket One (which came to me as I was conceptually dividing our Bucket Two comments into general support, specific support, suggested changes by addition, suggested edits uncontested, suggested edits contested): it may be helpful for the WG if we divide our Bucket One comments into categories along a spectrum. As I envision it (in order along the spectrum): 1) No disclosure/publication ever. 2) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. I would put the 10,000+ "Respect our Privacy" comments here. 3) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP). E.g., I think the Google comment would go here. 4) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse. E.g., I think the ICA and EasyDNS comments would go here. For the WG's sake, we may also want to distinguish between those Bucket One comments that couched their discussion of disclosure/publication in terms of what P/P Providers ought to be required to do (or not required to do) in response to external third-party disclosure requests such as from IP owners or LEA (e.g., the Google and Key Systems comments) vs. those Bucket One comments that simply said "no publication/disclosure absent a court order" without distinguishing b/w whether the impetus for the disclosure was an external third-party request or the P/P Provider's own desire to disclose/publish (e.g., the 10,000+ "Respect our Privacy" comments). Thanks all! TW. From: Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:06 AM To: Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com>; Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Whoops, I left out Jawala at the bottom, who should go in bucket two. Sorry. From: gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:01 AM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I've added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks. From: gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Tx Mary! Kathy : Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone - this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I'll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG's preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though "attached" to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I'm afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team's Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you're working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can - with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG's preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates. I'm happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I'm happy to do that (per Kathy's suggestion on the call today) while I'm doing the current update anyway. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I've been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I've attached - I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that): * First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG's proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue. * Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG's proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the "Respect our Privacy" submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly's point though that in this paragraph we should note that the "Respect our Privacy" submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google's, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, and didn't accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice. * Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG's proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a "higher standard." From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary. * Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we're not sure what to do with. That's how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below: * Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn't touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I'm pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4's work). Not that I'm not interested in LE - just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams. * In response to Mary's email (attached): I agree that I'm not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we're certainly planning to do), then I don't see why we'd need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that's fine. I just don't see how that helps us get to our final work product. * Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team's role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that - OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we do about that? - I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I'm just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier. Thanks all! From: gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx! Hi Everyone First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so. The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from. ==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever. The second is one I'd like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way. ==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one's personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency". (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?) My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket) The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are. ==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead! My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I'd suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex. ==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category. I"ll be having a look at that third category My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not. ==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy Happy to discuss Holly On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:Kathy@kathykleiman.com>> wrote: Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion. Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All of these comments contain a clear call: - No one's personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency. Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool? Best and tx, Kathy : Dear all, Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39. Apologies again for the inadvertent omission - they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I'll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Hello Todd and everyone, Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list! Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members' questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don't replace WG members' reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG's/Sub Team's eagle eyes is the best arrangement. Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I've taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don't believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I've compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure. On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd's suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd's initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn't address either - so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate). BTW, Todd, maybe it's my machine or more likely that I haven't looked through it in detail, but I'm not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated .... ? Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way! Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Am I the first to try this out? Cool. As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was helpful to illustrate where we'll need to be by 8-11, which in turn might help us decide what we'll need to do to get there. Specifically, I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I'd recommend that we do the same. Here are the two that I'd propose: 1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. Presumably this group would present on: * How many of these comments were there? * Who did they come from? * What arguments did they make? * What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions of the Initial Report beyond Annex E? 2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. Presumably this group would present on: * How many of these comments were there? * Who did they come from? * What arguments did they make? * What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address the arguments raised in these comments? I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it will help our sub-team "divide and conquer" the work that we have before us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I'm not really sure how we'd otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose and/or publish absent a court order isn't arguing for changes to Annex E; it's arguing to scrap Annex E altogether. With those two buckets in mind, I've taken a first pass through the comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to make sure that they agree with how I've tentatively divided the comments? Once we're comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some members want to tackle the third "unclear" category) to start reviewing the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other questions that anybody wants to suggest). Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was compiled? I'm just curious because I want to make sure that our sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For example, I know that Turner's comment (available here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnSR7.pd...) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn't included in the attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted it. :) So I want to make sure that there aren't other comments on Annex E that we also ought to be reviewing. Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody. Todd. Todd D. Williams Counsel Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. One CNN Center, 10 North Atlanta, Georgia 30303 P: 404-827-2234 F: 404-827-1994 todd.williams@turner.com<mailto:todd.williams@turner.com> * Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E. 1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach of material service terms such as Internet abuse) 2) Google 3) 1&1 Internet SE 4) Access Now 5) Endurance Int'l Group 6) Jeff Wheelhouse 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service terms such as net abuse) 8) Greg McMullen 9) Evelyn Aya Snow 10) Ralf Haring 11) Liam 12) Dr M Klinefelter 13) Sam 14) Dan M 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas 16) Not your business 17) Simon Kissane 18) TS 19) Cort Wee 20) Alex Xu 21) Kenneth Godwin 22) Shahed Ahmmed 23) Sebastian Broussier 24) Andrew Merenbach 25) Finn Ellis 26) Aaron Holmes 27) Michael Ekstrand 28) Homer 29) Donuts 30) Michael Ho 31) Key Systems * Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework. 1) BC 2) MPAA 3) ISPCP 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge 5) INTA 6) IACC 7) NCSG 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas 9) Cyberinvasion 10) Phil Crooker 11) Aaron Myers 12) Cui (ADNDRC) 13) Mike Fewings 14) Name withheld 15) Gary Miller 16) Byunghoon Choi 17) Reid Baker 18) Nick O'Dell 19) Time Warner 20) RIAA & IFPI 21) IPC 22) Thomas Smoonlock 23) Vanda Scartezini 24) Tim Kramer * Bucket Three: unclear. 1) Sven Slootweg 2) Brendan Conniff 3) Marc Schauber 4) Aaron Mason 5) Kevin Szprychel 6) Christopher 7) James Ford 8) Shantanu Gupta 9) Christopher Smith 10) Private 11) Robert Lukitsh 12) Adam Miller 13) Charles 14) Aaron Dalton 15) Stephen Black Wolf 16) Ian McNeil 17) Adam Creighton 18) Arthur Zonnenberg 19) Anand S. 20) Lucas Stadler 21) Alan _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3
Thanks so much, Todd the document is really informative and should be very helpful to the WG in reviewing Annex E. Thank you also for actually going back to the comments themselves and noting associated remarks that may relevant as well! FWIW your suggestions for Bucket One makes sense to us (staff). We know that doing these buckets and going through the comments for this Sub Team in particular can be quite difficult and time consuming, so thank you all again. Please let me know how staff can assist you. Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com> Date: Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 19:15 To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Kathy:
Attached is my first crack at our portion of the summary (on the Bucket Two comments). Let me know if you have any suggested edits, additions, subtractions, etc.
Also, I¹ve copied the entire sub-team mailing list on this email, for two reasons:
1) So that there is a transparent public record of any back-and-forth red-lining of the document that we may do; and
2) So that Sara and Holly for Bucket One, and Darcy for our miscellaneous bucket, can see what I envision for our summary report to the WG. If you all want to add your summaries to this one to make it consistent in terms of formatting, etc., feel free.
I had one thought Sara and Holly for Bucket One (which came to me as I was conceptually dividing our Bucket Two comments into general support, specific support, suggested changes by addition, suggested edits uncontested, suggested edits contested): it may be helpful for the WG if we divide our Bucket One comments into categories along a spectrum. As I envision it (in order along the spectrum):
1) No disclosure/publication ever.
2) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. I would put the 10,000+ ³Respect our Privacy² comments here.
3) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP). E.g., I think the Google comment would go here.
4) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse. E.g., I think the ICA and EasyDNS comments would go here.
For the WG¹s sake, we may also want to distinguish between those Bucket One comments that couched their discussion of disclosure/publication in terms of what P/P Providers ought to be required to do (or not required to do) in response to external third-party disclosure requests such as from IP owners or LEA (e.g., the Google and Key Systems comments) vs. those Bucket One comments that simply said ³no publication/disclosure absent a court order² without distinguishing b/w whether the impetus for the disclosure was an external third-party request or the P/P Provider¹s own desire to disclose/publish (e.g., the 10,000+ ³Respect our Privacy² comments).
Thanks all!
TW.
From: Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:06 AM To: Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com>; Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Whoops, I left out Jawala at the bottom, who should go in bucket two. Sorry.
From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:01 AM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I¹ve added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks.
From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Tx Mary! Kathy :
Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I¹ll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG¹s preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though ³attached² to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I¹m afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team¹s Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you¹re working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG¹s preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates.
I¹m happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I¹m happy to do that (per Kathy¹s suggestion on the call today) while I¹m doing the current update anyway.
Thanks and cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> > on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com> > Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com <mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com> >, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net <mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net> > Cc: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> " <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I¹ve been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I¹ve attached I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that):
· First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG¹s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue.
· Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG¹s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the ³Respect our Privacy² submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly¹s point though that in this paragraph we should note that the ³Respect our Privacy² submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google¹s, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, and didn¹t accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice.
· Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG¹s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that ³verifiable evidence of wrongdoing² is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a ³higher standard.² From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary.
· Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we¹re not sure what to do with.
That¹s how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below:
· Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn¹t touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I¹m pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4¹s work). Not that I¹m not interested in LE just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams.
· In response to Mary¹s email (attached): I agree that I¹m not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we¹re certainly planning to do), then I don¹t see why we¹d need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that¹s fine. I just don¹t see how that helps us get to our final work product.
· Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team¹s role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we do about that? I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I¹m just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier.
Thanks all!
From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> ] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net <mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net> > Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx!
Hi Everyone
First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so.
The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from.
==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever.
The second is one I¹d like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way.
==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one¹s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency². (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?)
My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket)
The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are.
==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead!
My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I¹d suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex.
==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category.
I²ll be having a look at that third category
My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not.
==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy
Happy to discuss
Holly
On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com> wrote:
Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion.
Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All of these comments contain a clear call: - No one¹s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency.
Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool?
Best and tx, Kathy
:
Dear all,
Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39.
Apologies again for the inadvertent omission they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I¹ll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly.
Thanks and cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> > on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> > Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com> >, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> " <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan
> > Hello Todd and everyone, > > > > Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list! > > > Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I > apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of > comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting > the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am > very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes > WG members¹ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits > don¹t replace WG members¹ reading the comments themselves if possible. > At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as > thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our > efforts and a WG¹s/Sub Team¹s eagle eyes is the best arrangement. > > > > Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address > specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the > online template responses that do the same. The Word document is > therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or > the full WG, as appropriate). I¹ve taken a quick look through my > documents/collected comments and don¹t believe I have missed out any > others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word > documents I¹ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure. > > > > On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd¹s suggested approach > seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves > would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups > to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd¹s initial sweep, > and in doing so also note any comments that didn¹t address either so > that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or > considered by the full WG (if appropriate). > > > > BTW, Todd, maybe it¹s my machine or more likely that I haven¹t looked > through it in detail, but I¹m not seeing your comments/additions/edits > in the document you circulated . ? > > > > Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance > from staff in any way! > > > > Cheers > > Mary > > > > Mary Wong > > Senior Policy Director > > Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) > > Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 > > Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> > > > > > > > > From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org > <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> > on behalf of "Williams, Todd" > <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com> > > Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 > To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> " > <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > > Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan > > > > Am I the first to try this out? Cool. > > > > As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the > presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was > helpful to illustrate where we¹ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn > might help us decide what we¹ll need to do to get there. Specifically, > I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two > basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I¹d recommend > that we do the same. Here are the two that I¹d propose: > > > > 1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead > argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a > court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. > Presumably this group would present on: > > · How many of these comments were there? > > · Who did they come from? > > · What arguments did they make? > > · What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions > of the Initial Report beyond Annex E? > > 2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P > Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, > subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to > whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be > modified. Presumably this group would present on: > > · How many of these comments were there? > > · Who did they come from? > > · What arguments did they make? > > · What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address > the arguments raised in these comments? > > > > I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it > will help our sub-team ³divide and conquer² the work that we have before > us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I¹m not really sure how > we¹d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A > comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose > and/or publish absent a court order isn¹t arguing for changes to Annex > E; it¹s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether. > > > > With those two buckets in mind, I¹ve taken a first pass through the > comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated > (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to > make sure that they agree with how I¹ve tentatively divided the > comments? Once we¹re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the > next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some > members want to tackle the third ³unclear² category) to start reviewing > the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present > to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other > questions that anybody wants to suggest). > > > > Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of > information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was > compiled? I¹m just curious because I want to make sure that our > sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For > example, I know that Turner¹s comment (available > here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3 > VcnSR7.pdf > <http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnS > R7.pdf> ) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn¹t included in the > attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted > it. J So I want to make sure that there aren¹t other comments on Annex > E that we also ought to be reviewing. > > > > Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody. > > > Todd. > > > > Todd D. Williams > > Counsel > Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. > One CNN Center, 10 North > > Atlanta, Georgia 30303 > P: 404-827-2234 > > F: 404-827-1994 > > todd.williams@turner.com <mailto:todd.williams@turner.com> > > > > · Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E. > > 1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach > of material service terms such as Internet abuse) > > 2) Google > > 3) 1&1 Internet SE > > 4) Access Now > > 5) Endurance Int¹l Group > > 6) Jeff Wheelhouse > > 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service > terms such as net abuse) > > 8) Greg McMullen > > 9) Evelyn Aya Snow > > 10) Ralf Haring > > 11) Liam > > 12) Dr M Klinefelter > > 13) Sam > > 14) Dan M > > 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas > > 16) Not your business > > 17) Simon Kissane > > 18) TS > > 19) Cort Wee > > 20) Alex Xu > > 21) Kenneth Godwin > > 22) Shahed Ahmmed > > 23) Sebastian Broussier > > 24) Andrew Merenbach > > 25) Finn Ellis > > 26) Aaron Holmes > > 27) Michael Ekstrand > > 28) Homer > > 29) Donuts > > 30) Michael Ho > > 31) Key Systems > * Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how > to change the Disclosure Framework. > 1) BC > > 2) MPAA > > 3) ISPCP > > 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge > > 5) INTA > > 6) IACC > > 7) NCSG > > 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas > > 9) Cyberinvasion > > 10) Phil Crooker > > 11) Aaron Myers > > 12) Cui (ADNDRC) > > 13) Mike Fewings > > 14) Name withheld > > 15) Gary Miller > > 16) Byunghoon Choi > > 17) Reid Baker > > 18) Nick O¹Dell > > 19) Time Warner > > 20) RIAA & IFPI > > 21) IPC > > 22) Thomas Smoonlock > > 23) Vanda Scartezini > > 24) Tim Kramer > * Bucket Three: unclear. > 1) Sven Slootweg > > 2) Brendan Conniff > > 3) Marc Schauber > > 4) Aaron Mason > > 5) Kevin Szprychel > > 6) Christopher > > 7) James Ford > > 8) Shantanu Gupta > > 9) Christopher Smith > > 10) Private > > 11) Robert Lukitsh > > 12) Adam Miller > > 13) Charles > > 14) Aaron Dalton > > 15) Stephen Black Wolf > > 16) Ian McNeil > > 17) Adam Creighton > > 18) Arthur Zonnenberg > > 19) Anand S. > > 20) Lucas Stadler > > 21) Alan
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Todd, This is very helpful. Thank you. I’m working on Bucket 1 today and hoping to get some sort of draft out by EOD for Holly and all to look over. It’s been an abnormally hectic week so apologies for the delay. Sara From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" Date: Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 4:15 PM To: Kathy Kleiman, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Kathy: Attached is my first crack at our portion of the summary (on the Bucket Two comments). Let me know if you have any suggested edits, additions, subtractions, etc. Also, I’ve copied the entire sub-team mailing list on this email, for two reasons: 1) So that there is a transparent public record of any back-and-forth red-lining of the document that we may do; and 2) So that Sara and Holly for Bucket One, and Darcy for our miscellaneous bucket, can see what I envision for our summary report to the WG. If you all want to add your summaries to this one to make it consistent in terms of formatting, etc., feel free. I had one thought Sara and Holly for Bucket One (which came to me as I was conceptually dividing our Bucket Two comments into general support, specific support, suggested changes by addition, suggested edits uncontested, suggested edits contested): it may be helpful for the WG if we divide our Bucket One comments into categories along a spectrum. As I envision it (in order along the spectrum): 1) No disclosure/publication ever. 2) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. I would put the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments here. 3) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP). E.g., I think the Google comment would go here. 4) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse. E.g., I think the ICA and EasyDNS comments would go here. For the WG’s sake, we may also want to distinguish between those Bucket One comments that couched their discussion of disclosure/publication in terms of what P/P Providers ought to be required to do (or not required to do) in response to external third-party disclosure requests such as from IP owners or LEA (e.g., the Google and Key Systems comments) vs. those Bucket One comments that simply said “no publication/disclosure absent a court order” without distinguishing b/w whether the impetus for the disclosure was an external third-party request or the P/P Provider’s own desire to disclose/publish (e.g., the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments). Thanks all! TW. From: Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:06 AM To: Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>; Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Whoops, I left out Jawala at the bottom, who should go in bucket two. Sorry. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:01 AM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I’ve added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Tx Mary! Kathy : Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone – this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I’ll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG’s preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though “attached” to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I’m afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team’s Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you’re working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can – with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG’s preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates. I’m happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I’m happy to do that (per Kathy’s suggestion on the call today) while I’m doing the current update anyway. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I’ve been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I’ve attached – I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that): · First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue. · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly’s point though that in this paragraph we should note that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google’s, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, and didn’t accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice. · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that “verifiable evidence of wrongdoing” is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a “higher standard.” From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary. · Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we’re not sure what to do with. That’s how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below: · Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn’t touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I’m pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4’s work). Not that I’m not interested in LE – just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams. · In response to Mary’s email (attached): I agree that I’m not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we’re certainly planning to do), then I don’t see why we’d need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that’s fine. I just don’t see how that helps us get to our final work product. · Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team’s role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that – OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we do about that? – I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I’m just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier. Thanks all! From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx! Hi Everyone First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so. The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from. ==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever. The second is one I’d like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way. ==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency”. (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?) My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket) The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are. ==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead! My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I’d suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex. ==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category. I”ll be having a look at that third category My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not. ==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy Happy to discuss Holly On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:Kathy@kathykleiman.com>> wrote: Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion. Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All of these comments contain a clear call: - No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency. Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool? Best and tx, Kathy : Dear all, Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39. Apologies again for the inadvertent omission – they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I’ll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Hello Todd and everyone, Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list! Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members’ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don’t replace WG members’ reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG’s/Sub Team’s eagle eyes is the best arrangement. Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I’ve taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don’t believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I’ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure. On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd’s suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd’s initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn’t address either – so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate). BTW, Todd, maybe it’s my machine or more likely that I haven’t looked through it in detail, but I’m not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated …. ? Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way! Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Am I the first to try this out? Cool. As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was helpful to illustrate where we’ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn might help us decide what we’ll need to do to get there. Specifically, I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I’d recommend that we do the same. Here are the two that I’d propose: 1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions of the Initial Report beyond Annex E? 2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address the arguments raised in these comments? I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it will help our sub-team “divide and conquer” the work that we have before us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I’m not really sure how we’d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose and/or publish absent a court order isn’t arguing for changes to Annex E; it’s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether. With those two buckets in mind, I’ve taken a first pass through the comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to make sure that they agree with how I’ve tentatively divided the comments? Once we’re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some members want to tackle the third “unclear” category) to start reviewing the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other questions that anybody wants to suggest). Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was compiled? I’m just curious because I want to make sure that our sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For example, I know that Turner’s comment (available here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnSR7.pd...) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn’t included in the attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted it. ☺ So I want to make sure that there aren’t other comments on Annex E that we also ought to be reviewing. Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody. Todd. Todd D. Williams Counsel Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. One CNN Center, 10 North Atlanta, Georgia 30303 P: 404-827-2234 F: 404-827-1994 todd.williams@turner.com<mailto:todd.williams@turner.com> · Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E. 1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach of material service terms such as Internet abuse) 2) Google 3) 1&1 Internet SE 4) Access Now 5) Endurance Int’l Group 6) Jeff Wheelhouse 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service terms such as net abuse) 8) Greg McMullen 9) Evelyn Aya Snow 10) Ralf Haring 11) Liam 12) Dr M Klinefelter 13) Sam 14) Dan M 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas 16) Not your business 17) Simon Kissane 18) TS 19) Cort Wee 20) Alex Xu 21) Kenneth Godwin 22) Shahed Ahmmed 23) Sebastian Broussier 24) Andrew Merenbach 25) Finn Ellis 26) Aaron Holmes 27) Michael Ekstrand 28) Homer 29) Donuts 30) Michael Ho 31) Key Systems * Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework. 1) BC 2) MPAA 3) ISPCP 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge 5) INTA 6) IACC 7) NCSG 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas 9) Cyberinvasion 10) Phil Crooker 11) Aaron Myers 12) Cui (ADNDRC) 13) Mike Fewings 14) Name withheld 15) Gary Miller 16) Byunghoon Choi 17) Reid Baker 18) Nick O’Dell 19) Time Warner 20) RIAA & IFPI 21) IPC 22) Thomas Smoonlock 23) Vanda Scartezini 24) Tim Kramer * Bucket Three: unclear. 1) Sven Slootweg 2) Brendan Conniff 3) Marc Schauber 4) Aaron Mason 5) Kevin Szprychel 6) Christopher 7) James Ford 8) Shantanu Gupta 9) Christopher Smith 10) Private 11) Robert Lukitsh 12) Adam Miller 13) Charles 14) Aaron Dalton 15) Stephen Black Wolf 16) Ian McNeil 17) Adam Creighton 18) Arthur Zonnenberg 19) Anand S. 20) Lucas Stadler 21) Alan _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3
I am finishing up Bucket 3 and hope to get that summary and detail out to the group today. My apologies as well Sara and I seem to be having the same kind of week! Darcy From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com> Date: Friday, August 7, 2015 at 10:30 AM To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com>, Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Todd, This is very helpful. Thank you. I¹m working on Bucket 1 today and hoping to get some sort of draft out by EOD for Holly and all to look over. It¹s been an abnormally hectic week so apologies for the delay. Sara From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" Date: Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 4:15 PM To: Kathy Kleiman, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Kathy: Attached is my first crack at our portion of the summary (on the Bucket Two comments). Let me know if you have any suggested edits, additions, subtractions, etc. Also, I¹ve copied the entire sub-team mailing list on this email, for two reasons: 1) So that there is a transparent public record of any back-and-forth red-lining of the document that we may do; and 2) So that Sara and Holly for Bucket One, and Darcy for our miscellaneous bucket, can see what I envision for our summary report to the WG. If you all want to add your summaries to this one to make it consistent in terms of formatting, etc., feel free. I had one thought Sara and Holly for Bucket One (which came to me as I was conceptually dividing our Bucket Two comments into general support, specific support, suggested changes by addition, suggested edits uncontested, suggested edits contested): it may be helpful for the WG if we divide our Bucket One comments into categories along a spectrum. As I envision it (in order along the spectrum): 1) No disclosure/publication ever. 2) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. I would put the 10,000+ ³Respect our Privacy² comments here. 3) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP). E.g., I think the Google comment would go here. 4) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse. E.g., I think the ICA and EasyDNS comments would go here. For the WG¹s sake, we may also want to distinguish between those Bucket One comments that couched their discussion of disclosure/publication in terms of what P/P Providers ought to be required to do (or not required to do) in response to external third-party disclosure requests such as from IP owners or LEA (e.g., the Google and Key Systems comments) vs. those Bucket One comments that simply said ³no publication/disclosure absent a court order² without distinguishing b/w whether the impetus for the disclosure was an external third-party request or the P/P Provider¹s own desire to disclose/publish (e.g., the 10,000+ ³Respect our Privacy² comments). Thanks all! TW. From: Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:06 AM To: Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com>; Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Whoops, I left out Jawala at the bottom, who should go in bucket two. Sorry. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:01 AM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I¹ve added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Tx Mary! Kathy :
Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I¹ll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG¹s preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though ³attached² to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I¹m afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team¹s Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you¹re working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG¹s preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates.
I¹m happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I¹m happy to do that (per Kathy¹s suggestion on the call today) while I¹m doing the current update anyway.
Thanks and cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> > on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com> > Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com <mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com> >, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net <mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net> > Cc: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> " <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I¹ve been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I¹ve attached I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that):
· First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG¹s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue.
· Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG¹s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the ³Respect our Privacy² submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly¹s point though that in this paragraph we should note that the ³Respect our Privacy² submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google¹s, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, and didn¹t accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice.
· Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG¹s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that ³verifiable evidence of wrongdoing² is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a ³higher standard.² From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary.
· Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we¹re not sure what to do with.
That¹s how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below:
· Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn¹t touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I¹m pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4¹s work). Not that I¹m not interested in LE just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams.
· In response to Mary¹s email (attached): I agree that I¹m not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we¹re certainly planning to do), then I don¹t see why we¹d need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that¹s fine. I just don¹t see how that helps us get to our final work product.
· Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team¹s role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we do about that? I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I¹m just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier.
Thanks all!
From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> ] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net <mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net> > Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx!
Hi Everyone
First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so.
The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from.
==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever.
The second is one I¹d like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way.
==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one¹s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency². (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?)
My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket)
The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are.
==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead!
My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I¹d suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex.
==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category.
I²ll be having a look at that third category
My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not.
==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy
Happy to discuss
Holly
On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com> wrote:
Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion.
Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All of these comments contain a clear call: - No one¹s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency.
Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool?
Best and tx, Kathy
:
Dear all,
Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39.
Apologies again for the inadvertent omission they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I¹ll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly.
Thanks and cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> > on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> > Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com> >, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> " <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan
Hello Todd and everyone,
Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list!
Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members¹ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don¹t replace WG members¹ reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG¹s/Sub Team¹s eagle eyes is the best arrangement.
Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I¹ve taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don¹t believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I¹ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure.
On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd¹s suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd¹s initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn¹t address either so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate).
BTW, Todd, maybe it¹s my machine or more likely that I haven¹t looked through it in detail, but I¹m not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated . ?
Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way!
Cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> > on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com> > Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> " <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan
> > Am I the first to try this out? Cool. > > > > As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the > presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was > helpful to illustrate where we¹ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn > might help us decide what we¹ll need to do to get there. Specifically, > I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two > basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I¹d recommend > that we do the same. Here are the two that I¹d propose: > > > > 1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead > argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a > court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. > Presumably this group would present on: > > · How many of these comments were there? > > · Who did they come from? > > · What arguments did they make? > > · What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions > of the Initial Report beyond Annex E? > > 2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P > Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, > subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to > whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be > modified. Presumably this group would present on: > > · How many of these comments were there? > > · Who did they come from? > > · What arguments did they make? > > · What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address > the arguments raised in these comments? > > > > I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it > will help our sub-team ³divide and conquer² the work that we have before > us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I¹m not really sure how > we¹d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A > comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose > and/or publish absent a court order isn¹t arguing for changes to Annex > E; it¹s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether. > > > > With those two buckets in mind, I¹ve taken a first pass through the > comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated > (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to > make sure that they agree with how I¹ve tentatively divided the > comments? Once we¹re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the > next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some > members want to tackle the third ³unclear² category) to start reviewing > the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present > to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other > questions that anybody wants to suggest). > > > > Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of > information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was > compiled? I¹m just curious because I want to make sure that our > sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For > example, I know that Turner¹s comment (available > here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3 > VcnSR7.pdf > <http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnS > R7.pdf> ) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn¹t included in the > attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted > it. J So I want to make sure that there aren¹t other comments on Annex > E that we also ought to be reviewing. > > > > Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody. > > > Todd. > > > > Todd D. Williams > > Counsel > Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. > One CNN Center, 10 North > > Atlanta, Georgia 30303 > P: 404-827-2234 > > F: 404-827-1994 > > todd.williams@turner.com <mailto:todd.williams@turner.com> > > > > · Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E. > > 1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach > of material service terms such as Internet abuse) > > 2) Google > > 3) 1&1 Internet SE > > 4) Access Now > > 5) Endurance Int¹l Group > > 6) Jeff Wheelhouse > > 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service > terms such as net abuse) > > 8) Greg McMullen > > 9) Evelyn Aya Snow > > 10) Ralf Haring > > 11) Liam > > 12) Dr M Klinefelter > > 13) Sam > > 14) Dan M > > 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas > > 16) Not your business > > 17) Simon Kissane > > 18) TS > > 19) Cort Wee > > 20) Alex Xu > > 21) Kenneth Godwin > > 22) Shahed Ahmmed > > 23) Sebastian Broussier > > 24) Andrew Merenbach > > 25) Finn Ellis > > 26) Aaron Holmes > > 27) Michael Ekstrand > > 28) Homer > > 29) Donuts > > 30) Michael Ho > > 31) Key Systems > * Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how > to change the Disclosure Framework. > 1) BC > > 2) MPAA > > 3) ISPCP > > 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge > > 5) INTA > > 6) IACC > > 7) NCSG > > 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas > > 9) Cyberinvasion > > 10) Phil Crooker > > 11) Aaron Myers > > 12) Cui (ADNDRC) > > 13) Mike Fewings > > 14) Name withheld > > 15) Gary Miller > > 16) Byunghoon Choi > > 17) Reid Baker > > 18) Nick O¹Dell > > 19) Time Warner > > 20) RIAA & IFPI > > 21) IPC > > 22) Thomas Smoonlock > > 23) Vanda Scartezini > > 24) Tim Kramer > * Bucket Three: unclear. > 1) Sven Slootweg > > 2) Brendan Conniff > > 3) Marc Schauber > > 4) Aaron Mason > > 5) Kevin Szprychel > > 6) Christopher > > 7) James Ford > > 8) Shantanu Gupta > > 9) Christopher Smith > > 10) Private > > 11) Robert Lukitsh > > 12) Adam Miller > > 13) Charles > > 14) Aaron Dalton > > 15) Stephen Black Wolf > > 16) Ian McNeil > > 17) Adam Creighton > > 18) Arthur Zonnenberg > > 19) Anand S. > > 20) Lucas Stadler > > 21) Alan
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Todd and team, Attached are my specific comments on those comments that were identified as Bucket 3. Given the randomness of the Bucket 3 comments, I categorized them as follows: * Agree (1) * Disagree (5) * Irrelevant (4) * Negative (6) * Unknown (5) I¹ve added the summary of these items as a redline to Todd¹s original document from earlier today. Any questions, please let me know. Thanks, Darcy From: Darcy Southwell <darcy.southwell@endurance.com> Date: Friday, August 7, 2015 at 11:08 AM To: Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com>, "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com>, Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion I am finishing up Bucket 3 and hope to get that summary and detail out to the group today. My apologies as well Sara and I seem to be having the same kind of week! Darcy From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com> Date: Friday, August 7, 2015 at 10:30 AM To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com>, Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Todd, This is very helpful. Thank you. I¹m working on Bucket 1 today and hoping to get some sort of draft out by EOD for Holly and all to look over. It¹s been an abnormally hectic week so apologies for the delay. Sara From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" Date: Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 4:15 PM To: Kathy Kleiman, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Kathy: Attached is my first crack at our portion of the summary (on the Bucket Two comments). Let me know if you have any suggested edits, additions, subtractions, etc. Also, I¹ve copied the entire sub-team mailing list on this email, for two reasons: 1) So that there is a transparent public record of any back-and-forth red-lining of the document that we may do; and 2) So that Sara and Holly for Bucket One, and Darcy for our miscellaneous bucket, can see what I envision for our summary report to the WG. If you all want to add your summaries to this one to make it consistent in terms of formatting, etc., feel free. I had one thought Sara and Holly for Bucket One (which came to me as I was conceptually dividing our Bucket Two comments into general support, specific support, suggested changes by addition, suggested edits uncontested, suggested edits contested): it may be helpful for the WG if we divide our Bucket One comments into categories along a spectrum. As I envision it (in order along the spectrum): 1) No disclosure/publication ever. 2) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. I would put the 10,000+ ³Respect our Privacy² comments here. 3) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP). E.g., I think the Google comment would go here. 4) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse. E.g., I think the ICA and EasyDNS comments would go here. For the WG¹s sake, we may also want to distinguish between those Bucket One comments that couched their discussion of disclosure/publication in terms of what P/P Providers ought to be required to do (or not required to do) in response to external third-party disclosure requests such as from IP owners or LEA (e.g., the Google and Key Systems comments) vs. those Bucket One comments that simply said ³no publication/disclosure absent a court order² without distinguishing b/w whether the impetus for the disclosure was an external third-party request or the P/P Provider¹s own desire to disclose/publish (e.g., the 10,000+ ³Respect our Privacy² comments). Thanks all! TW. From: Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:06 AM To: Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com>; Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Whoops, I left out Jawala at the bottom, who should go in bucket two. Sorry. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:01 AM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I¹ve added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Tx Mary! Kathy :
Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I¹ll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG¹s preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though ³attached² to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I¹m afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team¹s Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you¹re working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG¹s preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates.
I¹m happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I¹m happy to do that (per Kathy¹s suggestion on the call today) while I¹m doing the current update anyway.
Thanks and cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> > on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com> > Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com <mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com> >, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net <mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net> > Cc: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> " <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I¹ve been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I¹ve attached I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that):
· First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG¹s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue.
· Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG¹s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the ³Respect our Privacy² submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly¹s point though that in this paragraph we should note that the ³Respect our Privacy² submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google¹s, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, and didn¹t accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice.
· Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG¹s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that ³verifiable evidence of wrongdoing² is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a ³higher standard.² From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary.
· Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we¹re not sure what to do with.
That¹s how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below:
· Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn¹t touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I¹m pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4¹s work). Not that I¹m not interested in LE just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams.
· In response to Mary¹s email (attached): I agree that I¹m not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we¹re certainly planning to do), then I don¹t see why we¹d need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that¹s fine. I just don¹t see how that helps us get to our final work product.
· Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team¹s role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we do about that? I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I¹m just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier.
Thanks all!
From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> ] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net <mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net> > Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx!
Hi Everyone
First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so.
The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from.
==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever.
The second is one I¹d like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way.
==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one¹s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency². (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?)
My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket)
The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are.
==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead!
My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I¹d suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex.
==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category.
I²ll be having a look at that third category
My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not.
==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy
Happy to discuss
Holly
On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com> wrote:
Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion.
Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All of these comments contain a clear call: - No one¹s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency.
Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool?
Best and tx, Kathy
:
Dear all,
Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39.
Apologies again for the inadvertent omission they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I¹ll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly.
Thanks and cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> > on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> > Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com> >, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> " <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan
Hello Todd and everyone,
Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list!
Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members¹ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don¹t replace WG members¹ reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG¹s/Sub Team¹s eagle eyes is the best arrangement.
Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I¹ve taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don¹t believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I¹ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure.
On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd¹s suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd¹s initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn¹t address either so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate).
BTW, Todd, maybe it¹s my machine or more likely that I haven¹t looked through it in detail, but I¹m not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated . ?
Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way!
Cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> > on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com> > Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> " <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan
> > Am I the first to try this out? Cool. > > > > As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the > presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was > helpful to illustrate where we¹ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn > might help us decide what we¹ll need to do to get there. Specifically, > I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two > basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I¹d recommend > that we do the same. Here are the two that I¹d propose: > > > > 1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead > argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a > court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. > Presumably this group would present on: > > · How many of these comments were there? > > · Who did they come from? > > · What arguments did they make? > > · What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions > of the Initial Report beyond Annex E? > > 2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P > Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, > subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to > whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be > modified. Presumably this group would present on: > > · How many of these comments were there? > > · Who did they come from? > > · What arguments did they make? > > · What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address > the arguments raised in these comments? > > > > I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it > will help our sub-team ³divide and conquer² the work that we have before > us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I¹m not really sure how > we¹d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A > comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose > and/or publish absent a court order isn¹t arguing for changes to Annex > E; it¹s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether. > > > > With those two buckets in mind, I¹ve taken a first pass through the > comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated > (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to > make sure that they agree with how I¹ve tentatively divided the > comments? Once we¹re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the > next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some > members want to tackle the third ³unclear² category) to start reviewing > the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present > to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other > questions that anybody wants to suggest). > > > > Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of > information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was > compiled? I¹m just curious because I want to make sure that our > sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For > example, I know that Turner¹s comment (available > here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3 > VcnSR7.pdf > <http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnS > R7.pdf> ) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn¹t included in the > attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted > it. J So I want to make sure that there aren¹t other comments on Annex > E that we also ought to be reviewing. > > > > Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody. > > > Todd. > > > > Todd D. Williams > > Counsel > Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. > One CNN Center, 10 North > > Atlanta, Georgia 30303 > P: 404-827-2234 > > F: 404-827-1994 > > todd.williams@turner.com <mailto:todd.williams@turner.com> > > > > · Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E. > > 1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach > of material service terms such as Internet abuse) > > 2) Google > > 3) 1&1 Internet SE > > 4) Access Now > > 5) Endurance Int¹l Group > > 6) Jeff Wheelhouse > > 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service > terms such as net abuse) > > 8) Greg McMullen > > 9) Evelyn Aya Snow > > 10) Ralf Haring > > 11) Liam > > 12) Dr M Klinefelter > > 13) Sam > > 14) Dan M > > 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas > > 16) Not your business > > 17) Simon Kissane > > 18) TS > > 19) Cort Wee > > 20) Alex Xu > > 21) Kenneth Godwin > > 22) Shahed Ahmmed > > 23) Sebastian Broussier > > 24) Andrew Merenbach > > 25) Finn Ellis > > 26) Aaron Holmes > > 27) Michael Ekstrand > > 28) Homer > > 29) Donuts > > 30) Michael Ho > > 31) Key Systems > * Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how > to change the Disclosure Framework. > 1) BC > > 2) MPAA > > 3) ISPCP > > 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge > > 5) INTA > > 6) IACC > > 7) NCSG > > 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas > > 9) Cyberinvasion > > 10) Phil Crooker > > 11) Aaron Myers > > 12) Cui (ADNDRC) > > 13) Mike Fewings > > 14) Name withheld > > 15) Gary Miller > > 16) Byunghoon Choi > > 17) Reid Baker > > 18) Nick O¹Dell > > 19) Time Warner > > 20) RIAA & IFPI > > 21) IPC > > 22) Thomas Smoonlock > > 23) Vanda Scartezini > > 24) Tim Kramer > * Bucket Three: unclear. > 1) Sven Slootweg > > 2) Brendan Conniff > > 3) Marc Schauber > > 4) Aaron Mason > > 5) Kevin Szprychel > > 6) Christopher > > 7) James Ford > > 8) Shantanu Gupta > > 9) Christopher Smith > > 10) Private > > 11) Robert Lukitsh > > 12) Adam Miller > > 13) Charles > > 14) Aaron Dalton > > 15) Stephen Black Wolf > > 16) Ian McNeil > > 17) Adam Creighton > > 18) Arthur Zonnenberg > > 19) Anand S. > > 20) Lucas Stadler > > 21) Alan
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Tx Todd, appreciate all of your work! I'm on deadline today, but will work on this over the weekend. Have a good weekend, Katy :
Kathy:
Attached is my first crack at our portion of the summary (on the Bucket Two comments). Let me know if you have any suggested edits, additions, subtractions, etc.
Also, I’ve copied the entire sub-team mailing list on this email, for two reasons:
1)So that there is a transparent public record of any back-and-forth red-lining of the document that we may do; and
2)So that Sara and Holly for Bucket One, and Darcy for our miscellaneous bucket, can see what I envision for our summary report to the WG. If you all want to add your summaries to this one to make it consistent in terms of formatting, etc., feel free.
I had one thought Sara and Holly for Bucket One (which came to me as I was conceptually dividing our Bucket Two comments into general support, specific support, suggested changes by addition, suggested edits uncontested, suggested edits contested): it may be helpful for the WG if we divide our Bucket One comments into categories along a spectrum. As I envision it (in order along the spectrum):
1)No disclosure/publication ever.
2)No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. I would put the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments here.
3)No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP). /E.g./, I think the Google comment would go here.
4)No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse. /E.g./, I think the ICA and EasyDNS comments would go here.
For the WG’s sake, we may also want to distinguish between those Bucket One comments that couched their discussion of disclosure/publication in terms of what P/P Providers ought to be required to do (or not required to do) in response to external third-party disclosure requests such as from IP owners or LEA (e.g., the Google and Key Systems comments) vs. those Bucket One comments that simply said “no publication/disclosure absent a court order” without distinguishing b/w whether the impetus for the disclosure was an external third-party request or the P/P Provider’s own desire to disclose/publish (/e.g./, the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments).
Thanks all!
TW.
*From:*Williams, Todd *Sent:* Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:06 AM *To:* Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com>; Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org *Subject:* RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Whoops, I left out Jawala at the bottom, who should go in bucket two. Sorry.
*From:*gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Williams, Todd *Sent:* Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:01 AM *To:* Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com <mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I’ve added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks.
*From:*gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Kathy Kleiman *Sent:* Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM *To:* gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Tx Mary! Kathy :
Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone – this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I’ll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG’s preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though “attached” to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I’m afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team’s Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you’re working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can – with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG’s preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates.
I’m happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I’m happy to do that (per Kathy’s suggestion on the call today) while I’m doing the current update anyway.
Thanks and cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
*From: *<gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> *Date: *Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 *To: *Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com <mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net <mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> *Cc: *"gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> *Subject: *Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I’ve been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I’ve attached – I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that):
·First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue.
·Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly’s point though that in this paragraph we should note that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google’s, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a _court order_, and didn’t accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice.
·Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that “verifiable evidence of wrongdoing” is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a “higher standard.” From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary.
·Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we’re not sure what to do with.
That’s how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below:
·Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn’t touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I’m pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4’s work). Not that I’m not interested in LE – just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams.
·In response to Mary’s email (attached): I agree that I’m not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we’re certainly planning to do), then I don’t see why we’d need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that’s fine. I just don’t see how that helps us get to our final work product.
·Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team’s role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that – OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we */do/* about that? – I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I’m just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier.
Thanks all!
*From:*gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>[mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Kathy Kleiman *Sent:* Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM *To:* Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net <mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> *Cc:* gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx!
Hi Everyone
First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so.
The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from.
==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever.
The second is one I’d like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way.
==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency”. (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?)
My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket)
The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are.
==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead!
My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I’d suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex.
==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category.
I”ll be having a look at that third category
My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not.
==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy
Happy to discuss
Holly
On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com <mailto:Kathy@kathykleiman.com>> wrote:
Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion.
Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled:/ICANN- Respect Our Privacy./All of these comments contain a clear call: */- No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency./*
Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool?
Best and tx, Kathy
:
Dear all,
Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into_ROW 19 for the first question/topic_(General Comments) on PAGE 16, and_ROW 7 for the second question/topic_(Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39.
Apologies again for the inadvertent omission – they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I’ll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly.
Thanks and cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email:mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
*From:*<gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>> *Date:*Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 *To:*"Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> *Subject:*Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan
Hello Todd and everyone,
Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list!
Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members’ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don’t replace WG members’ reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG’s/Sub Team’s eagle eyes is the best arrangement.
Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I’ve taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don’t believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I’ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure.
On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd’s suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd’s initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn’t address either – so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate).
BTW, Todd, maybe it’s my machine or more likely that I haven’t looked through it in detail, but I’m not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated …. ?
Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way!
Cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email:mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
*From:*<gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> *Date:*Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 *To:*"gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> *Subject:*[Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan
Am I the first to try this out? Cool.
As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was helpful to illustrate where we’ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn might help us decide what we’ll need to do to get there. Specifically, I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I’d recommend that we do the same. Here are the two that I’d propose:
1)Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. Presumably this group would present on:
·How many of these comments were there?
·Who did they come from?
·What arguments did they make?
·What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions of the Initial Report beyond Annex E?
2)Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. Presumably this group would present on:
·How many of these comments were there?
·Who did they come from?
·What arguments did they make?
·What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address the arguments raised in these comments?
I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it will help our sub-team “divide and conquer” the work that we have before us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I’m not really sure how we’d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose and/or publish absent a court order isn’t arguing for changes to Annex E; it’s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether.
With those two buckets in mind, I’ve taken a first pass through the comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to make sure that they agree with how I’ve tentatively divided the comments? Once we’re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some members want to tackle the third “unclear” category) to start reviewing the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other questions that anybody wants to suggest).
Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit ofinformation on the methodology of how the attached Word document was compiled? I’m just curious because I want to make sure that our sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For example, I know that Turner’s comment (available here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnSR7.pd...) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn’t included in the attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted it. JSo I want to make sure that there aren’t other comments on Annex E that we also ought to be reviewing.
Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody.
Todd.
Todd D. Williams
Counsel Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. One CNN Center, 10 North
Atlanta, Georgia 30303 P: 404-827-2234
F: 404-827-1994
todd.williams@turner.com <mailto:todd.williams@turner.com>
·Bucket One:rejects the premise of Annex E.
1)Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach of material service terms such as Internet abuse)
2)Google
3)1&1 Internet SE
4)Access Now
5)Endurance Int’l Group
6)Jeff Wheelhouse
7)EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service terms such as net abuse)
8)Greg McMullen
9)Evelyn Aya Snow
10)Ralf Haring
11)Liam
12)Dr M Klinefelter
13)Sam
14)Dan M
15)Adrian Valeriu Ispas
16)Not your business
17)Simon Kissane
18)TS
19)Cort Wee
20)Alex Xu
21)Kenneth Godwin
22)Shahed Ahmmed
23)Sebastian Broussier
24)Andrew Merenbach
25)Finn Ellis
26)Aaron Holmes
27)Michael Ekstrand
28)Homer
29)Donuts
30)Michael Ho
31)Key Systems
* Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework.
1)BC
2)MPAA
3)ISPCP
4)CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge
5)INTA
6)IACC
7)NCSG
8)Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas
9)Cyberinvasion
10)Phil Crooker
11)Aaron Myers
12)Cui (ADNDRC)
13)Mike Fewings
14)Name withheld
15)Gary Miller
16)Byunghoon Choi
17)Reid Baker
18)Nick O’Dell
19)Time Warner
20)RIAA & IFPI
21)IPC
22)Thomas Smoonlock
23)Vanda Scartezini
24)Tim Kramer
* Bucket Three: unclear.
1)Sven Slootweg
2)Brendan Conniff
3)Marc Schauber
4)Aaron Mason
5)Kevin Szprychel
6)Christopher
7)James Ford
8)Shantanu Gupta
9)Christopher Smith
10)Private
11)Robert Lukitsh
12)Adam Miller
13)Charles
14)Aaron Dalton
15)Stephen Black Wolf
16)Ian McNeil
17)Adam Creighton
18)Arthur Zonnenberg
19)Anand S.
20)Lucas Stadler
21)Alan
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First - thanks to all Next - I haven’t had a chance to go through Todd’s suggestions thoroughly, but will in the next day or so. And Todd, I think the buckets are about right. My only comment (that doesn’t matter anyway) is that some of the many responses would have gone into No. 1 rather than 2. But frankly, in terms of why we are doing, that doesn’t matter. The outcome from our perspective would be the same Holly On 8 Aug 2015, at 5:12 am, Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com> wrote:
Tx Todd, appreciate all of your work! I'm on deadline today, but will work on this over the weekend. Have a good weekend, Katy :
Kathy:
Attached is my first crack at our portion of the summary (on the Bucket Two comments). Let me know if you have any suggested edits, additions, subtractions, etc.
Also, I’ve copied the entire sub-team mailing list on this email, for two reasons:
1) So that there is a transparent public record of any back-and-forth red-lining of the document that we may do; and 2) So that Sara and Holly for Bucket One, and Darcy for our miscellaneous bucket, can see what I envision for our summary report to the WG. If you all want to add your summaries to this one to make it consistent in terms of formatting, etc., feel free.
I had one thought Sara and Holly for Bucket One (which came to me as I was conceptually dividing our Bucket Two comments into general support, specific support, suggested changes by addition, suggested edits uncontested, suggested edits contested): it may be helpful for the WG if we divide our Bucket One comments into categories along a spectrum. As I envision it (in order along the spectrum):
1) No disclosure/publication ever. 2) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. I would put the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments here. 3) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP). E.g., I think the Google comment would go here. 4) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse. E.g., I think the ICA and EasyDNS comments would go here.
For the WG’s sake, we may also want to distinguish between those Bucket One comments that couched their discussion of disclosure/publication in terms of what P/P Providers ought to be required to do (or not required to do) in response to external third-party disclosure requests such as from IP owners or LEA (e.g., the Google and Key Systems comments) vs. those Bucket One comments that simply said “no publication/disclosure absent a court order” without distinguishing b/w whether the impetus for the disclosure was an external third-party request or the P/P Provider’s own desire to disclose/publish (e.g., the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments).
Thanks all!
TW.
From: Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:06 AM To: Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com>; Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Whoops, I left out Jawala at the bottom, who should go in bucket two. Sorry.
From: gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:01 AM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I’ve added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks.
From: gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Tx Mary! Kathy : Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone – this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I’ll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG’s preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though “attached” to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I’m afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team’s Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you’re working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can – with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG’s preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates.
I’m happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I’m happy to do that (per Kathy’s suggestion on the call today) while I’m doing the current update anyway.
Thanks and cheers Mary
Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com> Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net> Cc: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I’ve been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I’ve attached – I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that):
· First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue. · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly’s point though that in this paragraph we should note that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google’s, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, and didn’t accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice. · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that “verifiable evidence of wrongdoing” is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a “higher standard.” From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary. · Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we’re not sure what to do with.
That’s how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below:
· Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn’t touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I’m pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4’s work). Not that I’m not interested in LE – just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams. · In response to Mary’s email (attached): I agree that I’m not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we’re certainly planning to do), then I don’t see why we’d need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that’s fine. I just don’t see how that helps us get to our final work product. · Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team’s role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that – OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we do about that? – I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I’m just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier.
Thanks all!
From: gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net> Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx! Hi Everyone
First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so.
The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from.
==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever.
The second is one I’d like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way. ==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency”. (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?)
My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket)
The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are.
==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead!
My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I’d suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex. ==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category.
I”ll be having a look at that third category
My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not.
==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy
Happy to discuss
Holly
On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com> wrote:
Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion.
Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All of these comments contain a clear call: - No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency.
Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool?
Best and tx, Kathy
: Dear all,
Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39.
Apologies again for the inadvertent omission – they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I’ll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly.
Thanks and cheers Mary
Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan
Hello Todd and everyone,
Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list!
Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members’ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don’t replace WG members’ reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG’s/Sub Team’s eagle eyes is the best arrangement.
Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I’ve taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don’t believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I’ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure.
On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd’s suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd’s initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn’t address either – so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate).
BTW, Todd, maybe it’s my machine or more likely that I haven’t looked through it in detail, but I’m not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated …. ?
Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way!
Cheers Mary
Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan
Am I the first to try this out? Cool.
As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was helpful to illustrate where we’ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn might help us decide what we’ll need to do to get there. Specifically, I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I’d recommend that we do the same. Here are the two that I’d propose:
1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions of the Initial Report beyond Annex E? 2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address the arguments raised in these comments?
I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it will help our sub-team “divide and conquer” the work that we have before us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I’m not really sure how we’d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose and/or publish absent a court order isn’t arguing for changes to Annex E; it’s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether.
With those two buckets in mind, I’ve taken a first pass through the comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to make sure that they agree with how I’ve tentatively divided the comments? Once we’re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some members want to tackle the third “unclear” category) to start reviewing the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other questions that anybody wants to suggest).
Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was compiled? I’m just curious because I want to make sure that our sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For example, I know that Turner’s comment (available here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnSR7.pd...) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn’t included in the attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted it. J So I want to make sure that there aren’t other comments on Annex E that we also ought to be reviewing.
Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody.
Todd.
Todd D. Williams Counsel Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. One CNN Center, 10 North Atlanta, Georgia 30303 P: 404-827-2234 F: 404-827-1994 todd.williams@turner.com
· Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E. 1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach of material service terms such as Internet abuse) 2) Google 3) 1&1 Internet SE 4) Access Now 5) Endurance Int’l Group 6) Jeff Wheelhouse 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service terms such as net abuse) 8) Greg McMullen 9) Evelyn Aya Snow 10) Ralf Haring 11) Liam 12) Dr M Klinefelter 13) Sam 14) Dan M 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas 16) Not your business 17) Simon Kissane 18) TS 19) Cort Wee 20) Alex Xu 21) Kenneth Godwin 22) Shahed Ahmmed 23) Sebastian Broussier 24) Andrew Merenbach 25) Finn Ellis 26) Aaron Holmes 27) Michael Ekstrand 28) Homer 29) Donuts 30) Michael Ho 31) Key Systems Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework. 1) BC 2) MPAA 3) ISPCP 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge 5) INTA 6) IACC 7) NCSG 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas 9) Cyberinvasion 10) Phil Crooker 11) Aaron Myers 12) Cui (ADNDRC) 13) Mike Fewings 14) Name withheld 15) Gary Miller 16) Byunghoon Choi 17) Reid Baker 18) Nick O’Dell 19) Time Warner 20) RIAA & IFPI 21) IPC 22) Thomas Smoonlock 23) Vanda Scartezini 24) Tim Kramer Bucket Three: unclear. 1) Sven Slootweg 2) Brendan Conniff 3) Marc Schauber 4) Aaron Mason 5) Kevin Szprychel 6) Christopher 7) James Ford 8) Shantanu Gupta 9) Christopher Smith 10) Private 11) Robert Lukitsh 12) Adam Miller 13) Charles 14) Aaron Dalton 15) Stephen Black Wolf 16) Ian McNeil 17) Adam Creighton 18) Arthur Zonnenberg 19) Anand S. 20) Lucas Stadler 21) Alan
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Hi All, I’m just finishing up on my portion of this homework, but I have a question. It just hit me that the Save Domain Privacy petitions have been placed in Bucket 3 – accepts the premise of Annex E – which I don’t believe is correct. I believe those comments belong in Bucket 1/2 that I have been working on, under Category 4 which is “No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse.” The exact petition language is: I, the undersigned, support ● The legitimate use of privacy or proxy services to keep personal information private, protect physical safety, and prevent identity theft ● The use of privacy services by all , for all legal purposes, regardless of whether the website is “commercial” ● That privacy providers should not be forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing I’m not so sure everyone would agree that the words of a requestor in an IP dispute are “verifiable evidence”. These comments belong under “No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse." Thanks, Sara From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" Date: Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 4:15 PM To: Kathy Kleiman, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Kathy: Attached is my first crack at our portion of the summary (on the Bucket Two comments). Let me know if you have any suggested edits, additions, subtractions, etc. Also, I’ve copied the entire sub-team mailing list on this email, for two reasons: 1) So that there is a transparent public record of any back-and-forth red-lining of the document that we may do; and 2) So that Sara and Holly for Bucket One, and Darcy for our miscellaneous bucket, can see what I envision for our summary report to the WG. If you all want to add your summaries to this one to make it consistent in terms of formatting, etc., feel free. I had one thought Sara and Holly for Bucket One (which came to me as I was conceptually dividing our Bucket Two comments into general support, specific support, suggested changes by addition, suggested edits uncontested, suggested edits contested): it may be helpful for the WG if we divide our Bucket One comments into categories along a spectrum. As I envision it (in order along the spectrum): 1) No disclosure/publication ever. 2) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. I would put the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments here. 3) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP). E.g., I think the Google comment would go here. 4) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse. E.g., I think the ICA and EasyDNS comments would go here. For the WG’s sake, we may also want to distinguish between those Bucket One comments that couched their discussion of disclosure/publication in terms of what P/P Providers ought to be required to do (or not required to do) in response to external third-party disclosure requests such as from IP owners or LEA (e.g., the Google and Key Systems comments) vs. those Bucket One comments that simply said “no publication/disclosure absent a court order” without distinguishing b/w whether the impetus for the disclosure was an external third-party request or the P/P Provider’s own desire to disclose/publish (e.g., the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments). Thanks all! TW. From: Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:06 AM To: Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>; Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Whoops, I left out Jawala at the bottom, who should go in bucket two. Sorry. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:01 AM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I’ve added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Tx Mary! Kathy : Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone – this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I’ll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG’s preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though “attached” to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I’m afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team’s Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you’re working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can – with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG’s preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates. I’m happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I’m happy to do that (per Kathy’s suggestion on the call today) while I’m doing the current update anyway. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I’ve been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I’ve attached – I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that): · First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue. · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly’s point though that in this paragraph we should note that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google’s, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, and didn’t accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice. · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that “verifiable evidence of wrongdoing” is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a “higher standard.” From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary. · Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we’re not sure what to do with. That’s how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below: · Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn’t touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I’m pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4’s work). Not that I’m not interested in LE – just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams. · In response to Mary’s email (attached): I agree that I’m not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we’re certainly planning to do), then I don’t see why we’d need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that’s fine. I just don’t see how that helps us get to our final work product. · Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team’s role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that – OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we do about that? – I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I’m just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier. Thanks all! From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx! Hi Everyone First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so. The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from. ==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever. The second is one I’d like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way. ==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency”. (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?) My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket) The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are. ==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead! My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I’d suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex. ==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category. I”ll be having a look at that third category My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not. ==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy Happy to discuss Holly On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:Kathy@kathykleiman.com>> wrote: Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion. Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All of these comments contain a clear call: - No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency. Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool? Best and tx, Kathy : Dear all, Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39. Apologies again for the inadvertent omission – they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I’ll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Hello Todd and everyone, Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list! Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members’ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don’t replace WG members’ reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG’s/Sub Team’s eagle eyes is the best arrangement. Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I’ve taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don’t believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I’ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure. On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd’s suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd’s initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn’t address either – so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate). BTW, Todd, maybe it’s my machine or more likely that I haven’t looked through it in detail, but I’m not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated …. ? Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way! Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Am I the first to try this out? Cool. As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was helpful to illustrate where we’ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn might help us decide what we’ll need to do to get there. Specifically, I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I’d recommend that we do the same. Here are the two that I’d propose: 1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions of the Initial Report beyond Annex E? 2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address the arguments raised in these comments? I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it will help our sub-team “divide and conquer” the work that we have before us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I’m not really sure how we’d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose and/or publish absent a court order isn’t arguing for changes to Annex E; it’s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether. With those two buckets in mind, I’ve taken a first pass through the comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to make sure that they agree with how I’ve tentatively divided the comments? Once we’re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some members want to tackle the third “unclear” category) to start reviewing the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other questions that anybody wants to suggest). Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was compiled? I’m just curious because I want to make sure that our sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For example, I know that Turner’s comment (available here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnSR7.pd...) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn’t included in the attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted it. ☺ So I want to make sure that there aren’t other comments on Annex E that we also ought to be reviewing. Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody. Todd. Todd D. Williams Counsel Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. One CNN Center, 10 North Atlanta, Georgia 30303 P: 404-827-2234 F: 404-827-1994 todd.williams@turner.com<mailto:todd.williams@turner.com> · Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E. 1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach of material service terms such as Internet abuse) 2) Google 3) 1&1 Internet SE 4) Access Now 5) Endurance Int’l Group 6) Jeff Wheelhouse 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service terms such as net abuse) 8) Greg McMullen 9) Evelyn Aya Snow 10) Ralf Haring 11) Liam 12) Dr M Klinefelter 13) Sam 14) Dan M 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas 16) Not your business 17) Simon Kissane 18) TS 19) Cort Wee 20) Alex Xu 21) Kenneth Godwin 22) Shahed Ahmmed 23) Sebastian Broussier 24) Andrew Merenbach 25) Finn Ellis 26) Aaron Holmes 27) Michael Ekstrand 28) Homer 29) Donuts 30) Michael Ho 31) Key Systems * Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework. 1) BC 2) MPAA 3) ISPCP 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge 5) INTA 6) IACC 7) NCSG 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas 9) Cyberinvasion 10) Phil Crooker 11) Aaron Myers 12) Cui (ADNDRC) 13) Mike Fewings 14) Name withheld 15) Gary Miller 16) Byunghoon Choi 17) Reid Baker 18) Nick O’Dell 19) Time Warner 20) RIAA & IFPI 21) IPC 22) Thomas Smoonlock 23) Vanda Scartezini 24) Tim Kramer * Bucket Three: unclear. 1) Sven Slootweg 2) Brendan Conniff 3) Marc Schauber 4) Aaron Mason 5) Kevin Szprychel 6) Christopher 7) James Ford 8) Shantanu Gupta 9) Christopher Smith 10) Private 11) Robert Lukitsh 12) Adam Miller 13) Charles 14) Aaron Dalton 15) Stephen Black Wolf 16) Ian McNeil 17) Adam Creighton 18) Arthur Zonnenberg 19) Anand S. 20) Lucas Stadler 21) Alan _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3
Hi Holly, Attached is my first rough draft for Buckets 1 and 2. I added on to Todd’s original document - my edits appear around page 4. Please let me know if you have any suggestions and feel free to make edits. Best, Sara From: Sara Bockey Date: Friday, August 7, 2015 at 1:09 PM To: "Williams, Todd", Kathy Kleiman, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" Cc: Sara Bockey Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi All, I’m just finishing up on my portion of this homework, but I have a question. It just hit me that the Save Domain Privacy petitions have been placed in Bucket 3 – accepts the premise of Annex E – which I don’t believe is correct. I believe those comments belong in Bucket 1/2 that I have been working on, under Category 4 which is “No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse.” The exact petition language is: I, the undersigned, support ● The legitimate use of privacy or proxy services to keep personal information private, protect physical safety, and prevent identity theft ● The use of privacy services by all , for all legal purposes, regardless of whether the website is “commercial” ● That privacy providers should not be forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing I’m not so sure everyone would agree that the words of a requestor in an IP dispute are “verifiable evidence”. These comments belong under “No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse." Thanks, Sara From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" Date: Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 4:15 PM To: Kathy Kleiman, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Kathy: Attached is my first crack at our portion of the summary (on the Bucket Two comments). Let me know if you have any suggested edits, additions, subtractions, etc. Also, I’ve copied the entire sub-team mailing list on this email, for two reasons: 1) So that there is a transparent public record of any back-and-forth red-lining of the document that we may do; and 2) So that Sara and Holly for Bucket One, and Darcy for our miscellaneous bucket, can see what I envision for our summary report to the WG. If you all want to add your summaries to this one to make it consistent in terms of formatting, etc., feel free. I had one thought Sara and Holly for Bucket One (which came to me as I was conceptually dividing our Bucket Two comments into general support, specific support, suggested changes by addition, suggested edits uncontested, suggested edits contested): it may be helpful for the WG if we divide our Bucket One comments into categories along a spectrum. As I envision it (in order along the spectrum): 1) No disclosure/publication ever. 2) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. I would put the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments here. 3) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP). E.g., I think the Google comment would go here. 4) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse. E.g., I think the ICA and EasyDNS comments would go here. For the WG’s sake, we may also want to distinguish between those Bucket One comments that couched their discussion of disclosure/publication in terms of what P/P Providers ought to be required to do (or not required to do) in response to external third-party disclosure requests such as from IP owners or LEA (e.g., the Google and Key Systems comments) vs. those Bucket One comments that simply said “no publication/disclosure absent a court order” without distinguishing b/w whether the impetus for the disclosure was an external third-party request or the P/P Provider’s own desire to disclose/publish (e.g., the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments). Thanks all! TW. From: Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:06 AM To: Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>; Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Whoops, I left out Jawala at the bottom, who should go in bucket two. Sorry. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:01 AM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I’ve added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Tx Mary! Kathy : Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone – this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I’ll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG’s preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though “attached” to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I’m afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team’s Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you’re working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can – with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG’s preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates. I’m happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I’m happy to do that (per Kathy’s suggestion on the call today) while I’m doing the current update anyway. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I’ve been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I’ve attached – I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that): · First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue. · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly’s point though that in this paragraph we should note that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google’s, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, and didn’t accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice. · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that “verifiable evidence of wrongdoing” is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a “higher standard.” From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary. · Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we’re not sure what to do with. That’s how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below: · Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn’t touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I’m pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4’s work). Not that I’m not interested in LE – just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams. · In response to Mary’s email (attached): I agree that I’m not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we’re certainly planning to do), then I don’t see why we’d need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that’s fine. I just don’t see how that helps us get to our final work product. · Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team’s role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that – OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we do about that? – I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I’m just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier. Thanks all! From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx! Hi Everyone First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so. The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from. ==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever. The second is one I’d like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way. ==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency”. (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?) My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket) The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are. ==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead! My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I’d suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex. ==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category. I”ll be having a look at that third category My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not. ==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy Happy to discuss Holly On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:Kathy@kathykleiman.com>> wrote: Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion. Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All of these comments contain a clear call: - No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency. Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool? Best and tx, Kathy : Dear all, Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39. Apologies again for the inadvertent omission – they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I’ll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Hello Todd and everyone, Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list! Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members’ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don’t replace WG members’ reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG’s/Sub Team’s eagle eyes is the best arrangement. Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I’ve taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don’t believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I’ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure. On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd’s suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd’s initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn’t address either – so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate). BTW, Todd, maybe it’s my machine or more likely that I haven’t looked through it in detail, but I’m not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated …. ? Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way! Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Am I the first to try this out? Cool. As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was helpful to illustrate where we’ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn might help us decide what we’ll need to do to get there. Specifically, I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I’d recommend that we do the same. Here are the two that I’d propose: 1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions of the Initial Report beyond Annex E? 2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address the arguments raised in these comments? I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it will help our sub-team “divide and conquer” the work that we have before us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I’m not really sure how we’d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose and/or publish absent a court order isn’t arguing for changes to Annex E; it’s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether. With those two buckets in mind, I’ve taken a first pass through the comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to make sure that they agree with how I’ve tentatively divided the comments? Once we’re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some members want to tackle the third “unclear” category) to start reviewing the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other questions that anybody wants to suggest). Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was compiled? I’m just curious because I want to make sure that our sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For example, I know that Turner’s comment (available here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnSR7.pd...) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn’t included in the attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted it. ☺ So I want to make sure that there aren’t other comments on Annex E that we also ought to be reviewing. Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody. Todd. Todd D. Williams Counsel Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. One CNN Center, 10 North Atlanta, Georgia 30303 P: 404-827-2234 F: 404-827-1994 todd.williams@turner.com<mailto:todd.williams@turner.com> · Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E. 1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach of material service terms such as Internet abuse) 2) Google 3) 1&1 Internet SE 4) Access Now 5) Endurance Int’l Group 6) Jeff Wheelhouse 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service terms such as net abuse) 8) Greg McMullen 9) Evelyn Aya Snow 10) Ralf Haring 11) Liam 12) Dr M Klinefelter 13) Sam 14) Dan M 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas 16) Not your business 17) Simon Kissane 18) TS 19) Cort Wee 20) Alex Xu 21) Kenneth Godwin 22) Shahed Ahmmed 23) Sebastian Broussier 24) Andrew Merenbach 25) Finn Ellis 26) Aaron Holmes 27) Michael Ekstrand 28) Homer 29) Donuts 30) Michael Ho 31) Key Systems * Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework. 1) BC 2) MPAA 3) ISPCP 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge 5) INTA 6) IACC 7) NCSG 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas 9) Cyberinvasion 10) Phil Crooker 11) Aaron Myers 12) Cui (ADNDRC) 13) Mike Fewings 14) Name withheld 15) Gary Miller 16) Byunghoon Choi 17) Reid Baker 18) Nick O’Dell 19) Time Warner 20) RIAA & IFPI 21) IPC 22) Thomas Smoonlock 23) Vanda Scartezini 24) Tim Kramer * Bucket Three: unclear. 1) Sven Slootweg 2) Brendan Conniff 3) Marc Schauber 4) Aaron Mason 5) Kevin Szprychel 6) Christopher 7) James Ford 8) Shantanu Gupta 9) Christopher Smith 10) Private 11) Robert Lukitsh 12) Adam Miller 13) Charles 14) Aaron Dalton 15) Stephen Black Wolf 16) Ian McNeil 17) Adam Creighton 18) Arthur Zonnenberg 19) Anand S. 20) Lucas Stadler 21) Alan _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3
Thanks Sara. I’ve reviewed the attached. My thoughts: · You refer in the attached to the Respect our Privacy submissions interchangeably as “signatures” to a “petition” but then also as comments. For the reasons that you argued in the attached email, if somebody took the time to express their views by submitting an actual comment, we should refer to it that way. · For the reasons that Kathy noted in her attached email, I think we have to reflect somewhere in our summary that all of the Respect our Privacy comments argued that “No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order.” My recommendation would be to at least add that as another “notable comment” bullet point in that section (alongside 1&1 and Key Systems). From: gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Sara Bockey Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 4:28 PM To: h.raiche@internode.on.net Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi Holly, Attached is my first rough draft for Buckets 1 and 2. I added on to Todd’s original document - my edits appear around page 4. Please let me know if you have any suggestions and feel free to make edits. Best, Sara From: Sara Bockey Date: Friday, August 7, 2015 at 1:09 PM To: "Williams, Todd", Kathy Kleiman, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" Cc: Sara Bockey Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi All, I’m just finishing up on my portion of this homework, but I have a question. It just hit me that the Save Domain Privacy petitions have been placed in Bucket 3 – accepts the premise of Annex E – which I don’t believe is correct. I believe those comments belong in Bucket 1/2 that I have been working on, under Category 4 which is “No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse.” The exact petition language is: I, the undersigned, support ● The legitimate use of privacy or proxy services to keep personal information private, protect physical safety, and prevent identity theft ● The use of privacy services by all , for all legal purposes, regardless of whether the website is “commercial” ● That privacy providers should not be forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing I’m not so sure everyone would agree that the words of a requestor in an IP dispute are “verifiable evidence”. These comments belong under “No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse." Thanks, Sara From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" Date: Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 4:15 PM To: Kathy Kleiman, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Kathy: Attached is my first crack at our portion of the summary (on the Bucket Two comments). Let me know if you have any suggested edits, additions, subtractions, etc. Also, I’ve copied the entire sub-team mailing list on this email, for two reasons: 1) So that there is a transparent public record of any back-and-forth red-lining of the document that we may do; and 2) So that Sara and Holly for Bucket One, and Darcy for our miscellaneous bucket, can see what I envision for our summary report to the WG. If you all want to add your summaries to this one to make it consistent in terms of formatting, etc., feel free. I had one thought Sara and Holly for Bucket One (which came to me as I was conceptually dividing our Bucket Two comments into general support, specific support, suggested changes by addition, suggested edits uncontested, suggested edits contested): it may be helpful for the WG if we divide our Bucket One comments into categories along a spectrum. As I envision it (in order along the spectrum): 1) No disclosure/publication ever. 2) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. I would put the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments here. 3) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP). E.g., I think the Google comment would go here. 4) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse. E.g., I think the ICA and EasyDNS comments would go here. For the WG’s sake, we may also want to distinguish between those Bucket One comments that couched their discussion of disclosure/publication in terms of what P/P Providers ought to be required to do (or not required to do) in response to external third-party disclosure requests such as from IP owners or LEA (e.g., the Google and Key Systems comments) vs. those Bucket One comments that simply said “no publication/disclosure absent a court order” without distinguishing b/w whether the impetus for the disclosure was an external third-party request or the P/P Provider’s own desire to disclose/publish (e.g., the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments). Thanks all! TW. From: Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:06 AM To: Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>; Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Whoops, I left out Jawala at the bottom, who should go in bucket two. Sorry. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:01 AM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I’ve added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Tx Mary! Kathy : Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone – this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I’ll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG’s preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though “attached” to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I’m afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team’s Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you’re working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can – with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG’s preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates. I’m happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I’m happy to do that (per Kathy’s suggestion on the call today) while I’m doing the current update anyway. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I’ve been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I’ve attached – I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that): · First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue. · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly’s point though that in this paragraph we should note that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google’s, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, and didn’t accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice. · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that “verifiable evidence of wrongdoing” is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a “higher standard.” From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary. · Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we’re not sure what to do with. That’s how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below: · Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn’t touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I’m pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4’s work). Not that I’m not interested in LE – just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams. · In response to Mary’s email (attached): I agree that I’m not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we’re certainly planning to do), then I don’t see why we’d need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that’s fine. I just don’t see how that helps us get to our final work product. · Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team’s role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that – OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we do about that? – I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I’m just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier. Thanks all! From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx! Hi Everyone First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so. The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from. ==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever. The second is one I’d like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way. ==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency”. (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?) My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket) The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are. ==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead! My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I’d suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex. ==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category. I”ll be having a look at that third category My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not. ==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy Happy to discuss Holly On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:Kathy@kathykleiman.com>> wrote: Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion. Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All of these comments contain a clear call: - No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency. Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool? Best and tx, Kathy : Dear all, Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39. Apologies again for the inadvertent omission – they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I’ll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Hello Todd and everyone, Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list! Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members’ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don’t replace WG members’ reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG’s/Sub Team’s eagle eyes is the best arrangement. Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I’ve taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don’t believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I’ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure. On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd’s suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd’s initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn’t address either – so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate). BTW, Todd, maybe it’s my machine or more likely that I haven’t looked through it in detail, but I’m not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated …. ? Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way! Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Am I the first to try this out? Cool. As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was helpful to illustrate where we’ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn might help us decide what we’ll need to do to get there. Specifically, I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I’d recommend that we do the same. Here are the two that I’d propose: 1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions of the Initial Report beyond Annex E? 2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address the arguments raised in these comments? I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it will help our sub-team “divide and conquer” the work that we have before us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I’m not really sure how we’d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose and/or publish absent a court order isn’t arguing for changes to Annex E; it’s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether. With those two buckets in mind, I’ve taken a first pass through the comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to make sure that they agree with how I’ve tentatively divided the comments? Once we’re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some members want to tackle the third “unclear” category) to start reviewing the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other questions that anybody wants to suggest). Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was compiled? I’m just curious because I want to make sure that our sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For example, I know that Turner’s comment (available here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnSR7.pd...) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn’t included in the attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted it. ☺ So I want to make sure that there aren’t other comments on Annex E that we also ought to be reviewing. Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody. Todd. Todd D. Williams Counsel Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. One CNN Center, 10 North Atlanta, Georgia 30303 P: 404-827-2234 F: 404-827-1994 todd.williams@turner.com<mailto:todd.williams@turner.com> · Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E. 1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach of material service terms such as Internet abuse) 2) Google 3) 1&1 Internet SE 4) Access Now 5) Endurance Int’l Group 6) Jeff Wheelhouse 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service terms such as net abuse) 8) Greg McMullen 9) Evelyn Aya Snow 10) Ralf Haring 11) Liam 12) Dr M Klinefelter 13) Sam 14) Dan M 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas 16) Not your business 17) Simon Kissane 18) TS 19) Cort Wee 20) Alex Xu 21) Kenneth Godwin 22) Shahed Ahmmed 23) Sebastian Broussier 24) Andrew Merenbach 25) Finn Ellis 26) Aaron Holmes 27) Michael Ekstrand 28) Homer 29) Donuts 30) Michael Ho 31) Key Systems * Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework. 1) BC 2) MPAA 3) ISPCP 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge 5) INTA 6) IACC 7) NCSG 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas 9) Cyberinvasion 10) Phil Crooker 11) Aaron Myers 12) Cui (ADNDRC) 13) Mike Fewings 14) Name withheld 15) Gary Miller 16) Byunghoon Choi 17) Reid Baker 18) Nick O’Dell 19) Time Warner 20) RIAA & IFPI 21) IPC 22) Thomas Smoonlock 23) Vanda Scartezini 24) Tim Kramer * Bucket Three: unclear. 1) Sven Slootweg 2) Brendan Conniff 3) Marc Schauber 4) Aaron Mason 5) Kevin Szprychel 6) Christopher 7) James Ford 8) Shantanu Gupta 9) Christopher Smith 10) Private 11) Robert Lukitsh 12) Adam Miller 13) Charles 14) Aaron Dalton 15) Stephen Black Wolf 16) Ian McNeil 17) Adam Creighton 18) Arthur Zonnenberg 19) Anand S. 20) Lucas Stadler 21) Alan _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3
Sounds good, thanks. From: "Williams, Todd" Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 9:17 AM To: Sara Bockey, "h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>" Cc: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks Sara. I’ve reviewed the attached. My thoughts: · You refer in the attached to the Respect our Privacy submissions interchangeably as “signatures” to a “petition” but then also as comments. For the reasons that you argued in the attached email, if somebody took the time to express their views by submitting an actual comment, we should refer to it that way. · For the reasons that Kathy noted in her attached email, I think we have to reflect somewhere in our summary that all of the Respect our Privacy comments argued that “No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order.” My recommendation would be to at least add that as another “notable comment” bullet point in that section (alongside 1&1 and Key Systems). From: gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Sara Bockey Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 4:28 PM To: h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net> Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi Holly, Attached is my first rough draft for Buckets 1 and 2. I added on to Todd’s original document - my edits appear around page 4. Please let me know if you have any suggestions and feel free to make edits. Best, Sara From: Sara Bockey Date: Friday, August 7, 2015 at 1:09 PM To: "Williams, Todd", Kathy Kleiman, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" Cc: Sara Bockey Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi All, I’m just finishing up on my portion of this homework, but I have a question. It just hit me that the Save Domain Privacy petitions have been placed in Bucket 3 – accepts the premise of Annex E – which I don’t believe is correct. I believe those comments belong in Bucket 1/2 that I have been working on, under Category 4 which is “No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse.” The exact petition language is: I, the undersigned, support ● The legitimate use of privacy or proxy services to keep personal information private, protect physical safety, and prevent identity theft ● The use of privacy services by all , for all legal purposes, regardless of whether the website is “commercial” ● That privacy providers should not be forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing I’m not so sure everyone would agree that the words of a requestor in an IP dispute are “verifiable evidence”. These comments belong under “No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse." Thanks, Sara From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" Date: Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 4:15 PM To: Kathy Kleiman, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Kathy: Attached is my first crack at our portion of the summary (on the Bucket Two comments). Let me know if you have any suggested edits, additions, subtractions, etc. Also, I’ve copied the entire sub-team mailing list on this email, for two reasons: 1) So that there is a transparent public record of any back-and-forth red-lining of the document that we may do; and 2) So that Sara and Holly for Bucket One, and Darcy for our miscellaneous bucket, can see what I envision for our summary report to the WG. If you all want to add your summaries to this one to make it consistent in terms of formatting, etc., feel free. I had one thought Sara and Holly for Bucket One (which came to me as I was conceptually dividing our Bucket Two comments into general support, specific support, suggested changes by addition, suggested edits uncontested, suggested edits contested): it may be helpful for the WG if we divide our Bucket One comments into categories along a spectrum. As I envision it (in order along the spectrum): 1) No disclosure/publication ever. 2) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. I would put the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments here. 3) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP). E.g., I think the Google comment would go here. 4) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse. E.g., I think the ICA and EasyDNS comments would go here. For the WG’s sake, we may also want to distinguish between those Bucket One comments that couched their discussion of disclosure/publication in terms of what P/P Providers ought to be required to do (or not required to do) in response to external third-party disclosure requests such as from IP owners or LEA (e.g., the Google and Key Systems comments) vs. those Bucket One comments that simply said “no publication/disclosure absent a court order” without distinguishing b/w whether the impetus for the disclosure was an external third-party request or the P/P Provider’s own desire to disclose/publish (e.g., the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments). Thanks all! TW. From: Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:06 AM To: Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>; Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Whoops, I left out Jawala at the bottom, who should go in bucket two. Sorry. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:01 AM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I’ve added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Tx Mary! Kathy : Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone – this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I’ll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG’s preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though “attached” to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I’m afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team’s Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you’re working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can – with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG’s preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates. I’m happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I’m happy to do that (per Kathy’s suggestion on the call today) while I’m doing the current update anyway. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I’ve been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I’ve attached – I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that): · First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue. · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly’s point though that in this paragraph we should note that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google’s, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, and didn’t accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice. · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that “verifiable evidence of wrongdoing” is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a “higher standard.” From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary. · Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we’re not sure what to do with. That’s how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below: · Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn’t touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I’m pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4’s work). Not that I’m not interested in LE – just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams. · In response to Mary’s email (attached): I agree that I’m not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we’re certainly planning to do), then I don’t see why we’d need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that’s fine. I just don’t see how that helps us get to our final work product. · Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team’s role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that – OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we do about that? – I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I’m just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier. Thanks all! From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx! Hi Everyone First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so. The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from. ==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever. The second is one I’d like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way. ==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency”. (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?) My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket) The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are. ==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead! My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I’d suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex. ==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category. I”ll be having a look at that third category My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not. ==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy Happy to discuss Holly On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:Kathy@kathykleiman.com>> wrote: Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion. Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All of these comments contain a clear call: - No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency. Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool? Best and tx, Kathy : Dear all, Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39. Apologies again for the inadvertent omission – they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I’ll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Hello Todd and everyone, Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list! Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members’ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don’t replace WG members’ reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG’s/Sub Team’s eagle eyes is the best arrangement. Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I’ve taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don’t believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I’ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure. On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd’s suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd’s initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn’t address either – so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate). BTW, Todd, maybe it’s my machine or more likely that I haven’t looked through it in detail, but I’m not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated …. ? Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way! Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Am I the first to try this out? Cool. As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was helpful to illustrate where we’ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn might help us decide what we’ll need to do to get there. Specifically, I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I’d recommend that we do the same. Here are the two that I’d propose: 1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions of the Initial Report beyond Annex E? 2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address the arguments raised in these comments? I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it will help our sub-team “divide and conquer” the work that we have before us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I’m not really sure how we’d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose and/or publish absent a court order isn’t arguing for changes to Annex E; it’s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether. With those two buckets in mind, I’ve taken a first pass through the comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to make sure that they agree with how I’ve tentatively divided the comments? Once we’re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some members want to tackle the third “unclear” category) to start reviewing the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other questions that anybody wants to suggest). Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was compiled? I’m just curious because I want to make sure that our sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For example, I know that Turner’s comment (available here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnSR7.pd...) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn’t included in the attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted it. ☺ So I want to make sure that there aren’t other comments on Annex E that we also ought to be reviewing. Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody. Todd. Todd D. Williams Counsel Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. One CNN Center, 10 North Atlanta, Georgia 30303 P: 404-827-2234 F: 404-827-1994 todd.williams@turner.com<mailto:todd.williams@turner.com> · Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E. 1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach of material service terms such as Internet abuse) 2) Google 3) 1&1 Internet SE 4) Access Now 5) Endurance Int’l Group 6) Jeff Wheelhouse 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service terms such as net abuse) 8) Greg McMullen 9) Evelyn Aya Snow 10) Ralf Haring 11) Liam 12) Dr M Klinefelter 13) Sam 14) Dan M 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas 16) Not your business 17) Simon Kissane 18) TS 19) Cort Wee 20) Alex Xu 21) Kenneth Godwin 22) Shahed Ahmmed 23) Sebastian Broussier 24) Andrew Merenbach 25) Finn Ellis 26) Aaron Holmes 27) Michael Ekstrand 28) Homer 29) Donuts 30) Michael Ho 31) Key Systems * Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework. 1) BC 2) MPAA 3) ISPCP 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge 5) INTA 6) IACC 7) NCSG 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas 9) Cyberinvasion 10) Phil Crooker 11) Aaron Myers 12) Cui (ADNDRC) 13) Mike Fewings 14) Name withheld 15) Gary Miller 16) Byunghoon Choi 17) Reid Baker 18) Nick O’Dell 19) Time Warner 20) RIAA & IFPI 21) IPC 22) Thomas Smoonlock 23) Vanda Scartezini 24) Tim Kramer * Bucket Three: unclear. 1) Sven Slootweg 2) Brendan Conniff 3) Marc Schauber 4) Aaron Mason 5) Kevin Szprychel 6) Christopher 7) James Ford 8) Shantanu Gupta 9) Christopher Smith 10) Private 11) Robert Lukitsh 12) Adam Miller 13) Charles 14) Aaron Dalton 15) Stephen Black Wolf 16) Ian McNeil 17) Adam Creighton 18) Arthur Zonnenberg 19) Anand S. 20) Lucas Stadler 21) Alan _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3
I agree with Sara. The language of the petition cannot be interpreted to mean the petition signers support the premise of Annex E. Darcy From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com> Date: Friday, August 7, 2015 at 1:09 PM To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com>, Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi All, I’m just finishing up on my portion of this homework, but I have a question. It just hit me that the Save Domain Privacy petitions have been placed in Bucket 3 – accepts the premise of Annex E – which I don’t believe is correct. I believe those comments belong in Bucket 1/2 that I have been working on, under Category 4 which is “No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse.” The exact petition language is: I, the undersigned, support ● The legitimate use of privacy or proxy services to keep personal information private, protect physical safety, and prevent identity theft ● The use of privacy services by all , for all legal purposes, regardless of whether the website is “commercial” ● That privacy providers should not be forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing I’m not so sure everyone would agree that the words of a requestor in an IP dispute are “verifiable evidence”. These comments belong under “No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse." Thanks, Sara From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" Date: Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 4:15 PM To: Kathy Kleiman, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Kathy: Attached is my first crack at our portion of the summary (on the Bucket Two comments). Let me know if you have any suggested edits, additions, subtractions, etc. Also, I’ve copied the entire sub-team mailing list on this email, for two reasons: 1) So that there is a transparent public record of any back-and-forth red-lining of the document that we may do; and 2) So that Sara and Holly for Bucket One, and Darcy for our miscellaneous bucket, can see what I envision for our summary report to the WG. If you all want to add your summaries to this one to make it consistent in terms of formatting, etc., feel free. I had one thought Sara and Holly for Bucket One (which came to me as I was conceptually dividing our Bucket Two comments into general support, specific support, suggested changes by addition, suggested edits uncontested, suggested edits contested): it may be helpful for the WG if we divide our Bucket One comments into categories along a spectrum. As I envision it (in order along the spectrum): 1) No disclosure/publication ever. 2) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. I would put the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments here. 3) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP). E.g., I think the Google comment would go here. 4) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse. E.g., I think the ICA and EasyDNS comments would go here. For the WG’s sake, we may also want to distinguish between those Bucket One comments that couched their discussion of disclosure/publication in terms of what P/P Providers ought to be required to do (or not required to do) in response to external third-party disclosure requests such as from IP owners or LEA (e.g., the Google and Key Systems comments) vs. those Bucket One comments that simply said “no publication/disclosure absent a court order” without distinguishing b/w whether the impetus for the disclosure was an external third-party request or the P/P Provider’s own desire to disclose/publish (e.g., the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments). Thanks all! TW. From: Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:06 AM To: Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com>; Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Whoops, I left out Jawala at the bottom, who should go in bucket two. Sorry. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:01 AM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I’ve added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Tx Mary! Kathy :
Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone – this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I’ll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG’s preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though “attached” to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I’m afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team’s Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you’re working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can – with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG’s preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates.
I’m happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I’m happy to do that (per Kathy’s suggestion on the call today) while I’m doing the current update anyway.
Thanks and cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> > on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com> > Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com <mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com> >, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net <mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net> > Cc: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> " <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I’ve been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I’ve attached – I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that):
• First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue.
• Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly’s point though that in this paragraph we should note that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google’s, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, and didn’t accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice.
• Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that “verifiable evidence of wrongdoing” is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a “higher standard.” From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary.
• Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we’re not sure what to do with.
That’s how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below:
• Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn’t touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I’m pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4’s work). Not that I’m not interested in LE – just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams.
• In response to Mary’s email (attached): I agree that I’m not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we’re certainly planning to do), then I don’t see why we’d need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that’s fine. I just don’t see how that helps us get to our final work product.
• Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team’s role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that – OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we do about that? – I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I’m just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier.
Thanks all!
From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> ] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net <mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net> > Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx!
Hi Everyone
First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so.
The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from.
==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever.
The second is one I’d like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way.
==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency”. (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?)
My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket)
The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are.
==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead!
My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I’d suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex.
==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category.
I”ll be having a look at that third category
My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not.
==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy
Happy to discuss
Holly
On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com> wrote:
Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion.
Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All of these comments contain a clear call: - No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency.
Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool?
Best and tx, Kathy
:
Dear all,
Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39.
Apologies again for the inadvertent omission – they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I’ll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly.
Thanks and cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> > on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> > Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com> >, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> " <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan
Hello Todd and everyone,
Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list!
Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members’ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don’t replace WG members’ reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG’s/Sub Team’s eagle eyes is the best arrangement.
Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I’ve taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don’t believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I’ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure.
On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd’s suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd’s initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn’t address either – so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate).
BTW, Todd, maybe it’s my machine or more likely that I haven’t looked through it in detail, but I’m not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated …. ?
Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way!
Cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> > on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com> > Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> " <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan
> > Am I the first to try this out? Cool. > > > > As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the > presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was > helpful to illustrate where we’ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn > might help us decide what we’ll need to do to get there. Specifically, > I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two > basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I’d recommend > that we do the same. Here are the two that I’d propose: > > > > 1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead > argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a > court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. > Presumably this group would present on: > > • How many of these comments were there? > > • Who did they come from? > > • What arguments did they make? > > • What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions > of the Initial Report beyond Annex E? > > 2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P > Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, > subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to > whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be > modified. Presumably this group would present on: > > • How many of these comments were there? > > • Who did they come from? > > • What arguments did they make? > > • What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address > the arguments raised in these comments? > > > > I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it > will help our sub-team “divide and conquer” the work that we have before > us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I’m not really sure how > we’d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A > comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose > and/or publish absent a court order isn’t arguing for changes to Annex > E; it’s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether. > > > > With those two buckets in mind, I’ve taken a first pass through the > comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated > (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to > make sure that they agree with how I’ve tentatively divided the > comments? Once we’re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the > next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some > members want to tackle the third “unclear” category) to start reviewing > the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present > to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other > questions that anybody wants to suggest). > > > > Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of > information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was > compiled? I’m just curious because I want to make sure that our > sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For > example, I know that Turner’s comment (available > here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3 > VcnSR7.pdf > <http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnS > R7.pdf> ) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn’t included in the > attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted > it. J So I want to make sure that there aren’t other comments on Annex > E that we also ought to be reviewing. > > > > Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody. > > > Todd. > > > > Todd D. Williams > > Counsel > Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. > One CNN Center, 10 North > > Atlanta, Georgia 30303 > P: 404-827-2234 > > F: 404-827-1994 > > todd.williams@turner.com <mailto:todd.williams@turner.com> > > > > • Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E. > > 1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach > of material service terms such as Internet abuse) > > 2) Google > > 3) 1&1 Internet SE > > 4) Access Now > > 5) Endurance Int’l Group > > 6) Jeff Wheelhouse > > 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service > terms such as net abuse) > > 8) Greg McMullen > > 9) Evelyn Aya Snow > > 10) Ralf Haring > > 11) Liam > > 12) Dr M Klinefelter > > 13) Sam > > 14) Dan M > > 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas > > 16) Not your business > > 17) Simon Kissane > > 18) TS > > 19) Cort Wee > > 20) Alex Xu > > 21) Kenneth Godwin > > 22) Shahed Ahmmed > > 23) Sebastian Broussier > > 24) Andrew Merenbach > > 25) Finn Ellis > > 26) Aaron Holmes > > 27) Michael Ekstrand > > 28) Homer > > 29) Donuts > > 30) Michael Ho > > 31) Key Systems > * Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how > to change the Disclosure Framework. > 1) BC > > 2) MPAA > > 3) ISPCP > > 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge > > 5) INTA > > 6) IACC > > 7) NCSG > > 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas > > 9) Cyberinvasion > > 10) Phil Crooker > > 11) Aaron Myers > > 12) Cui (ADNDRC) > > 13) Mike Fewings > > 14) Name withheld > > 15) Gary Miller > > 16) Byunghoon Choi > > 17) Reid Baker > > 18) Nick O’Dell > > 19) Time Warner > > 20) RIAA & IFPI > > 21) IPC > > 22) Thomas Smoonlock > > 23) Vanda Scartezini > > 24) Tim Kramer > * Bucket Three: unclear. > 1) Sven Slootweg > > 2) Brendan Conniff > > 3) Marc Schauber > > 4) Aaron Mason > > 5) Kevin Szprychel > > 6) Christopher > > 7) James Ford > > 8) Shantanu Gupta > > 9) Christopher Smith > > 10) Private > > 11) Robert Lukitsh > > 12) Adam Miller > > 13) Charles > > 14) Aaron Dalton > > 15) Stephen Black Wolf > > 16) Ian McNeil > > 17) Adam Creighton > > 18) Arthur Zonnenberg > > 19) Anand S. > > 20) Lucas Stadler > > 21) Alan
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I don't understand this. How do we interpret "verifiable evidence" to mean a court order? If they had wanted to say "court order" they would have done so like the other comments did. And if I'm presenting a P/P Provider with a court order or subpoena that I've already obtained, why would I present them with any evidence (much less verifiable evidence)? I would have already presented that to the court, no? I don't understand this reading (though I'm happy to listen if someone wants to explain). Thanks. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 7, 2015, at 4:09 PM, Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com<mailto:sbockey@godaddy.com>> wrote: Hi All, I’m just finishing up on my portion of this homework, but I have a question. It just hit me that the Save Domain Privacy petitions have been placed in Bucket 3 – accepts the premise of Annex E – which I don’t believe is correct. I believe those comments belong in Bucket 1/2 that I have been working on, under Category 4 which is “No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse.” The exact petition language is: I, the undersigned, support ● The legitimate use of privacy or proxy services to keep personal information private, protect physical safety, and prevent identity theft ● The use of privacy services by all , for all legal purposes, regardless of whether the website is “commercial” ● That privacy providers should not be forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing I’m not so sure everyone would agree that the words of a requestor in an IP dispute are “verifiable evidence”. These comments belong under “No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse." Thanks, Sara From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" Date: Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 4:15 PM To: Kathy Kleiman, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Kathy: Attached is my first crack at our portion of the summary (on the Bucket Two comments). Let me know if you have any suggested edits, additions, subtractions, etc. Also, I’ve copied the entire sub-team mailing list on this email, for two reasons: 1) So that there is a transparent public record of any back-and-forth red-lining of the document that we may do; and 2) So that Sara and Holly for Bucket One, and Darcy for our miscellaneous bucket, can see what I envision for our summary report to the WG. If you all want to add your summaries to this one to make it consistent in terms of formatting, etc., feel free. I had one thought Sara and Holly for Bucket One (which came to me as I was conceptually dividing our Bucket Two comments into general support, specific support, suggested changes by addition, suggested edits uncontested, suggested edits contested): it may be helpful for the WG if we divide our Bucket One comments into categories along a spectrum. As I envision it (in order along the spectrum): 1) No disclosure/publication ever. 2) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. I would put the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments here. 3) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP). E.g., I think the Google comment would go here. 4) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse. E.g., I think the ICA and EasyDNS comments would go here. For the WG’s sake, we may also want to distinguish between those Bucket One comments that couched their discussion of disclosure/publication in terms of what P/P Providers ought to be required to do (or not required to do) in response to external third-party disclosure requests such as from IP owners or LEA (e.g., the Google and Key Systems comments) vs. those Bucket One comments that simply said “no publication/disclosure absent a court order” without distinguishing b/w whether the impetus for the disclosure was an external third-party request or the P/P Provider’s own desire to disclose/publish (e.g., the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments). Thanks all! TW. From: Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:06 AM To: Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>; Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Whoops, I left out Jawala at the bottom, who should go in bucket two. Sorry. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:01 AM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I’ve added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Tx Mary! Kathy : Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone – this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I’ll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG’s preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though “attached” to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I’m afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team’s Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you’re working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can – with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG’s preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates. I’m happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I’m happy to do that (per Kathy’s suggestion on the call today) while I’m doing the current update anyway. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I’ve been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I’ve attached – I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that): · First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue. · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly’s point though that in this paragraph we should note that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google’s, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, and didn’t accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice. · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that “verifiable evidence of wrongdoing” is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a “higher standard.” From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary. · Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we’re not sure what to do with. That’s how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below: · Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn’t touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I’m pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4’s work). Not that I’m not interested in LE – just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams. · In response to Mary’s email (attached): I agree that I’m not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we’re certainly planning to do), then I don’t see why we’d need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that’s fine. I just don’t see how that helps us get to our final work product. · Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team’s role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that – OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we do about that? – I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I’m just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier. Thanks all! From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx! Hi Everyone First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so. The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from. ==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever. The second is one I’d like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way. ==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency”. (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?) My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket) The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are. ==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead! My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I’d suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex. ==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category. I”ll be having a look at that third category My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not. ==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy Happy to discuss Holly On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:Kathy@kathykleiman.com>> wrote: Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion. Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All of these comments contain a clear call: - No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency. Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool? Best and tx, Kathy : Dear all, Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39. Apologies again for the inadvertent omission – they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I’ll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Hello Todd and everyone, Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list! Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members’ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don’t replace WG members’ reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG’s/Sub Team’s eagle eyes is the best arrangement. Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I’ve taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don’t believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I’ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure. On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd’s suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd’s initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn’t address either – so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate). BTW, Todd, maybe it’s my machine or more likely that I haven’t looked through it in detail, but I’m not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated …. ? Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way! Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Am I the first to try this out? Cool. As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was helpful to illustrate where we’ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn might help us decide what we’ll need to do to get there. Specifically, I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I’d recommend that we do the same. Here are the two that I’d propose: 1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions of the Initial Report beyond Annex E? 2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address the arguments raised in these comments? I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it will help our sub-team “divide and conquer” the work that we have before us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I’m not really sure how we’d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose and/or publish absent a court order isn’t arguing for changes to Annex E; it’s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether. With those two buckets in mind, I’ve taken a first pass through the comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to make sure that they agree with how I’ve tentatively divided the comments? Once we’re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some members want to tackle the third “unclear” category) to start reviewing the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other questions that anybody wants to suggest). Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was compiled? I’m just curious because I want to make sure that our sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For example, I know that Turner’s comment (available here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnSR7.pd...) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn’t included in the attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted it. :) So I want to make sure that there aren’t other comments on Annex E that we also ought to be reviewing. Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody. Todd. Todd D. Williams Counsel Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. One CNN Center, 10 North Atlanta, Georgia 30303 P: 404-827-2234 F: 404-827-1994 todd.williams@turner.com<mailto:todd.williams@turner.com> · Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E. 1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach of material service terms such as Internet abuse) 2) Google 3) 1&1 Internet SE 4) Access Now 5) Endurance Int’l Group 6) Jeff Wheelhouse 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service terms such as net abuse) 8) Greg McMullen 9) Evelyn Aya Snow 10) Ralf Haring 11) Liam 12) Dr M Klinefelter 13) Sam 14) Dan M 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas 16) Not your business 17) Simon Kissane 18) TS 19) Cort Wee 20) Alex Xu 21) Kenneth Godwin 22) Shahed Ahmmed 23) Sebastian Broussier 24) Andrew Merenbach 25) Finn Ellis 26) Aaron Holmes 27) Michael Ekstrand 28) Homer 29) Donuts 30) Michael Ho 31) Key Systems * Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework. 1) BC 2) MPAA 3) ISPCP 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge 5) INTA 6) IACC 7) NCSG 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas 9) Cyberinvasion 10) Phil Crooker 11) Aaron Myers 12) Cui (ADNDRC) 13) Mike Fewings 14) Name withheld 15) Gary Miller 16) Byunghoon Choi 17) Reid Baker 18) Nick O’Dell 19) Time Warner 20) RIAA & IFPI 21) IPC 22) Thomas Smoonlock 23) Vanda Scartezini 24) Tim Kramer * Bucket Three: unclear. 1) Sven Slootweg 2) Brendan Conniff 3) Marc Schauber 4) Aaron Mason 5) Kevin Szprychel 6) Christopher 7) James Ford 8) Shantanu Gupta 9) Christopher Smith 10) Private 11) Robert Lukitsh 12) Adam Miller 13) Charles 14) Aaron Dalton 15) Stephen Black Wolf 16) Ian McNeil 17) Adam Creighton 18) Arthur Zonnenberg 19) Anand S. 20) Lucas Stadler 21) Alan _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3
Todd, If you look at the actual comments attached to the SDP submission, most commenters are very concerned about their privacy and do not want their details revealed without proof of wrong doing or their consent or due process. The comments are from individuals and should be viewed as part of the petition, http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfCL0NdiQmaL.pd.... If you scan the document, you will see that “Court Order” appears 103 times, “Due Process” appears 102 times, “Subpoena” appears 68 times. I just don’t see how we can take these comments to be an unequivocal show of support for Annex E. Sara From: "Williams, Todd" Date: Friday, August 7, 2015 at 3:16 PM To: Sara Bockey Cc: Kathy Kleiman, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion I don't understand this. How do we interpret "verifiable evidence" to mean a court order? If they had wanted to say "court order" they would have done so like the other comments did. And if I'm presenting a P/P Provider with a court order or subpoena that I've already obtained, why would I present them with any evidence (much less verifiable evidence)? I would have already presented that to the court, no? I don't understand this reading (though I'm happy to listen if someone wants to explain). Thanks. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 7, 2015, at 4:09 PM, Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com<mailto:sbockey@godaddy.com>> wrote: Hi All, I’m just finishing up on my portion of this homework, but I have a question. It just hit me that the Save Domain Privacy petitions have been placed in Bucket 3 – accepts the premise of Annex E – which I don’t believe is correct. I believe those comments belong in Bucket 1/2 that I have been working on, under Category 4 which is “No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse.” The exact petition language is: I, the undersigned, support ● The legitimate use of privacy or proxy services to keep personal information private, protect physical safety, and prevent identity theft ● The use of privacy services by all , for all legal purposes, regardless of whether the website is “commercial” ● That privacy providers should not be forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing I’m not so sure everyone would agree that the words of a requestor in an IP dispute are “verifiable evidence”. These comments belong under “No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse." Thanks, Sara From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" Date: Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 4:15 PM To: Kathy Kleiman, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Kathy: Attached is my first crack at our portion of the summary (on the Bucket Two comments). Let me know if you have any suggested edits, additions, subtractions, etc. Also, I’ve copied the entire sub-team mailing list on this email, for two reasons: 1) So that there is a transparent public record of any back-and-forth red-lining of the document that we may do; and 2) So that Sara and Holly for Bucket One, and Darcy for our miscellaneous bucket, can see what I envision for our summary report to the WG. If you all want to add your summaries to this one to make it consistent in terms of formatting, etc., feel free. I had one thought Sara and Holly for Bucket One (which came to me as I was conceptually dividing our Bucket Two comments into general support, specific support, suggested changes by addition, suggested edits uncontested, suggested edits contested): it may be helpful for the WG if we divide our Bucket One comments into categories along a spectrum. As I envision it (in order along the spectrum): 1) No disclosure/publication ever. 2) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. I would put the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments here. 3) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP). E.g., I think the Google comment would go here. 4) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse. E.g., I think the ICA and EasyDNS comments would go here. For the WG’s sake, we may also want to distinguish between those Bucket One comments that couched their discussion of disclosure/publication in terms of what P/P Providers ought to be required to do (or not required to do) in response to external third-party disclosure requests such as from IP owners or LEA (e.g., the Google and Key Systems comments) vs. those Bucket One comments that simply said “no publication/disclosure absent a court order” without distinguishing b/w whether the impetus for the disclosure was an external third-party request or the P/P Provider’s own desire to disclose/publish (e.g., the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments). Thanks all! TW. From: Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:06 AM To: Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>; Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Whoops, I left out Jawala at the bottom, who should go in bucket two. Sorry. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:01 AM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I’ve added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Tx Mary! Kathy : Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone – this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I’ll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG’s preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though “attached” to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I’m afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team’s Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you’re working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can – with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG’s preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates. I’m happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I’m happy to do that (per Kathy’s suggestion on the call today) while I’m doing the current update anyway. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I’ve been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I’ve attached – I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that): · First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue. · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly’s point though that in this paragraph we should note that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google’s, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, and didn’t accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice. · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that “verifiable evidence of wrongdoing” is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a “higher standard.” From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary. · Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we’re not sure what to do with. That’s how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below: · Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn’t touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I’m pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4’s work). Not that I’m not interested in LE – just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams. · In response to Mary’s email (attached): I agree that I’m not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we’re certainly planning to do), then I don’t see why we’d need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that’s fine. I just don’t see how that helps us get to our final work product. · Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team’s role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that – OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we do about that? – I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I’m just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier. Thanks all! From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx! Hi Everyone First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so. The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from. ==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever. The second is one I’d like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way. ==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency”. (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?) My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket) The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are. ==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead! My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I’d suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex. ==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category. I”ll be having a look at that third category My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not. ==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy Happy to discuss Holly On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:Kathy@kathykleiman.com>> wrote: Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion. Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All of these comments contain a clear call: - No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency. Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool? Best and tx, Kathy : Dear all, Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39. Apologies again for the inadvertent omission – they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I’ll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Hello Todd and everyone, Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list! Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members’ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don’t replace WG members’ reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG’s/Sub Team’s eagle eyes is the best arrangement. Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I’ve taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don’t believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I’ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure. On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd’s suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd’s initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn’t address either – so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate). BTW, Todd, maybe it’s my machine or more likely that I haven’t looked through it in detail, but I’m not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated …. ? Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way! Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Am I the first to try this out? Cool. As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was helpful to illustrate where we’ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn might help us decide what we’ll need to do to get there. Specifically, I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I’d recommend that we do the same. Here are the two that I’d propose: 1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions of the Initial Report beyond Annex E? 2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address the arguments raised in these comments? I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it will help our sub-team “divide and conquer” the work that we have before us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I’m not really sure how we’d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose and/or publish absent a court order isn’t arguing for changes to Annex E; it’s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether. With those two buckets in mind, I’ve taken a first pass through the comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to make sure that they agree with how I’ve tentatively divided the comments? Once we’re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some members want to tackle the third “unclear” category) to start reviewing the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other questions that anybody wants to suggest). Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was compiled? I’m just curious because I want to make sure that our sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For example, I know that Turner’s comment (available here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnSR7.pd...) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn’t included in the attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted it. ☺ So I want to make sure that there aren’t other comments on Annex E that we also ought to be reviewing. Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody. Todd. Todd D. Williams Counsel Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. One CNN Center, 10 North Atlanta, Georgia 30303 P: 404-827-2234 F: 404-827-1994 todd.williams@turner.com<mailto:todd.williams@turner.com> · Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E. 1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach of material service terms such as Internet abuse) 2) Google 3) 1&1 Internet SE 4) Access Now 5) Endurance Int’l Group 6) Jeff Wheelhouse 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service terms such as net abuse) 8) Greg McMullen 9) Evelyn Aya Snow 10) Ralf Haring 11) Liam 12) Dr M Klinefelter 13) Sam 14) Dan M 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas 16) Not your business 17) Simon Kissane 18) TS 19) Cort Wee 20) Alex Xu 21) Kenneth Godwin 22) Shahed Ahmmed 23) Sebastian Broussier 24) Andrew Merenbach 25) Finn Ellis 26) Aaron Holmes 27) Michael Ekstrand 28) Homer 29) Donuts 30) Michael Ho 31) Key Systems * Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework. 1) BC 2) MPAA 3) ISPCP 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge 5) INTA 6) IACC 7) NCSG 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas 9) Cyberinvasion 10) Phil Crooker 11) Aaron Myers 12) Cui (ADNDRC) 13) Mike Fewings 14) Name withheld 15) Gary Miller 16) Byunghoon Choi 17) Reid Baker 18) Nick O’Dell 19) Time Warner 20) RIAA & IFPI 21) IPC 22) Thomas Smoonlock 23) Vanda Scartezini 24) Tim Kramer * Bucket Three: unclear. 1) Sven Slootweg 2) Brendan Conniff 3) Marc Schauber 4) Aaron Mason 5) Kevin Szprychel 6) Christopher 7) James Ford 8) Shantanu Gupta 9) Christopher Smith 10) Private 11) Robert Lukitsh 12) Adam Miller 13) Charles 14) Aaron Dalton 15) Stephen Black Wolf 16) Ian McNeil 17) Adam Creighton 18) Arthur Zonnenberg 19) Anand S. 20) Lucas Stadler 21) Alan _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3
Sara, I think you are providing some very important context to the intent and interpretation of these comments. I will go back, look closely, and think carefully about buckets. Tx for pointing out this information. Kathy :
Todd,
If you look at the actual comments attached to the SDP submission, most commenters are very concerned about their privacy and do not want their details revealed without proof of wrong doing or their consent or due process. The comments are from individuals and should be viewed as part of the petition, http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfCL0NdiQmaL.pd.... If you scan the document, you will see that “Court Order” appears 103 times, “Due Process” appears 102 times, “Subpoena” appears 68 times.
I just don’t see how we can take these comments to be an unequivocal show of support for Annex E.
Sara
From: "Williams, Todd" Date: Friday, August 7, 2015 at 3:16 PM To: Sara Bockey Cc: Kathy Kleiman, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
I don't understand this. How do we interpret "verifiable evidence" to mean a court order? If they had wanted to say "court order" they would have done so like the other comments did. And if I'm presenting a P/P Provider with a court order or subpoena that I've already obtained, why would I present them with any evidence (much less verifiable evidence)? I would have already presented that to the court, no? I don't understand this reading (though I'm happy to listen if someone wants to explain). Thanks.
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 7, 2015, at 4:09 PM, Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com <mailto:sbockey@godaddy.com>> wrote:
Hi All,
I’m just finishing up on my portion of this homework, but I have a question. It just hit me that the Save Domain Privacy petitions have been placed in Bucket 3 – _accepts the premise of Annex E _– which I don’t believe is correct. I believe those comments belong in Bucket 1/2 that I have been working on, under Category 4 which is “No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse.”
The exact petition language is:
/I, the undersigned, support/
/● //The legitimate use of privacy or proxy services /*/to keep personal information private,/*
*/protect physical safety, and prevent identity theft/*
/● /*/The use of privacy services by all /*/, for all legal purposes, regardless of whether the website/
/is “commercial”/
/● //That privacy providers should not be forced to reveal my private information /*/without/*
*/verifiable evidence /*/of wrongdoing/
I’m not so sure everyone would agree that the words of a requestor in an IP dispute are “verifiable evidence”. These comments belong under “No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), *but with some exceptions for cases of abuse.*"
Thanks,
Sara
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" Date: Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 4:15 PM To: Kathy Kleiman, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Kathy:
Attached is my first crack at our portion of the summary (on the Bucket Two comments). Let me know if you have any suggested edits, additions, subtractions, etc.
Also, I’ve copied the entire sub-team mailing list on this email, for two reasons:
1)So that there is a transparent public record of any back-and-forth red-lining of the document that we may do; and
2)So that Sara and Holly for Bucket One, and Darcy for our miscellaneous bucket, can see what I envision for our summary report to the WG. If you all want to add your summaries to this one to make it consistent in terms of formatting, etc., feel free.
I had one thought Sara and Holly for Bucket One (which came to me as I was conceptually dividing our Bucket Two comments into general support, specific support, suggested changes by addition, suggested edits uncontested, suggested edits contested): it may be helpful for the WG if we divide our Bucket One comments into categories along a spectrum. As I envision it (in order along the spectrum):
1)No disclosure/publication ever.
2)No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. I would put the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments here.
3)No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP). /E.g./, I think the Google comment would go here.
4)No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse. /E.g./, I think the ICA and EasyDNS comments would go here.
For the WG’s sake, we may also want to distinguish between those Bucket One comments that couched their discussion of disclosure/publication in terms of what P/P Providers ought to be required to do (or not required to do) in response to external third-party disclosure requests such as from IP owners or LEA (e.g., the Google and Key Systems comments) vs. those Bucket One comments that simply said “no publication/disclosure absent a court order” without distinguishing b/w whether the impetus for the disclosure was an external third-party request or the P/P Provider’s own desire to disclose/publish (/e.g./, the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments).
Thanks all!
TW.
*From:*Williams, Todd *Sent:* Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:06 AM *To:* Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>; Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com <mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> *Subject:* RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Whoops, I left out Jawala at the bottom, who should go in bucket two. Sorry.
*From:*gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Williams, Todd *Sent:* Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:01 AM *To:* Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com <mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I’ve added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks.
*From:*gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Kathy Kleiman *Sent:* Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM *To:* gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Tx Mary! Kathy :
Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone – this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I’ll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG’s preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though “attached” to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I’m afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team’s Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you’re working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can – with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG’s preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates.
I’m happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I’m happy to do that (per Kathy’s suggestion on the call today) while I’m doing the current update anyway.
Thanks and cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
*From: *<gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> *Date: *Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 *To: *Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com <mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net <mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> *Cc: *"gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> *Subject: *Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I’ve been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I’ve attached – I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that):
·First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue.
·Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly’s point though that in this paragraph we should note that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google’s, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a _court order_, and didn’t accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice.
·Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that “verifiable evidence of wrongdoing” is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a “higher standard.” From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary.
·Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we’re not sure what to do with.
That’s how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below:
·Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn’t touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I’m pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4’s work). Not that I’m not interested in LE – just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams.
·In response to Mary’s email (attached): I agree that I’m not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we’re certainly planning to do), then I don’t see why we’d need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that’s fine. I just don’t see how that helps us get to our final work product.
·Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team’s role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that – OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we */do/* about that? – I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I’m just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier.
Thanks all!
*From:*gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>[mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Kathy Kleiman *Sent:* Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM *To:* Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net <mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> *Cc:* gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx!
Hi Everyone
First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so.
The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from.
==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever.
The second is one I’d like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way.
==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency”. (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?)
My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket)
The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are.
==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead!
My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I’d suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex.
==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category.
I”ll be having a look at that third category
My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not.
==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy
Happy to discuss
Holly
On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com <mailto:Kathy@kathykleiman.com>> wrote:
Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion.
Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled:/ICANN- Respect Our Privacy./All of these comments contain a clear call: */- No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency./*
Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool?
Best and tx, Kathy
:
Dear all,
Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into_ROW 19 for the first question/topic_(General Comments) on PAGE 16, and_ROW 7 for the second question/topic_(Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39.
Apologies again for the inadvertent omission – they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I’ll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly.
Thanks and cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email:mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
*From:*<gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>> *Date:*Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 *To:*"Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> *Subject:*Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan
Hello Todd and everyone,
Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list!
Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members’ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don’t replace WG members’ reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG’s/Sub Team’s eagle eyes is the best arrangement.
Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I’ve taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don’t believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I’ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure.
On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd’s suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd’s initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn’t address either – so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate).
BTW, Todd, maybe it’s my machine or more likely that I haven’t looked through it in detail, but I’m not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated …. ?
Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way!
Cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email:mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
*From:*<gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> *Date:*Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 *To:*"gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> *Subject:*[Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan
Am I the first to try this out? Cool.
As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was helpful to illustrate where we’ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn might help us decide what we’ll need to do to get there. Specifically, I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I’d recommend that we do the same. Here are the two that I’d propose:
1)Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. Presumably this group would present on:
·How many of these comments were there?
·Who did they come from?
·What arguments did they make?
·What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions of the Initial Report beyond Annex E?
2)Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. Presumably this group would present on:
·How many of these comments were there?
·Who did they come from?
·What arguments did they make?
·What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address the arguments raised in these comments?
I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it will help our sub-team “divide and conquer” the work that we have before us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I’m not really sure how we’d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose and/or publish absent a court order isn’t arguing for changes to Annex E; it’s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether.
With those two buckets in mind, I’ve taken a first pass through the comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to make sure that they agree with how I’ve tentatively divided the comments? Once we’re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some members want to tackle the third “unclear” category) to start reviewing the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other questions that anybody wants to suggest).
Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit ofinformation on the methodology of how the attached Word document was compiled? I’m just curious because I want to make sure that our sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For example, I know that Turner’s comment (available here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnSR7.pd...) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn’t included in the attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted it. JSo I want to make sure that there aren’t other comments on Annex E that we also ought to be reviewing.
Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody.
Todd.
Todd D. Williams
Counsel Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. One CNN Center, 10 North
Atlanta, Georgia 30303 P: 404-827-2234
F: 404-827-1994
todd.williams@turner.com <mailto:todd.williams@turner.com>
·Bucket One:rejects the premise of Annex E.
1)Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach of material service terms such as Internet abuse)
2)Google
3)1&1 Internet SE
4)Access Now
5)Endurance Int’l Group
6)Jeff Wheelhouse
7)EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service terms such as net abuse)
8)Greg McMullen
9)Evelyn Aya Snow
10)Ralf Haring
11)Liam
12)Dr M Klinefelter
13)Sam
14)Dan M
15)Adrian Valeriu Ispas
16)Not your business
17)Simon Kissane
18)TS
19)Cort Wee
20)Alex Xu
21)Kenneth Godwin
22)Shahed Ahmmed
23)Sebastian Broussier
24)Andrew Merenbach
25)Finn Ellis
26)Aaron Holmes
27)Michael Ekstrand
28)Homer
29)Donuts
30)Michael Ho
31)Key Systems
* Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework.
1)BC
2)MPAA
3)ISPCP
4)CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge
5)INTA
6)IACC
7)NCSG
8)Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas
9)Cyberinvasion
10)Phil Crooker
11)Aaron Myers
12)Cui (ADNDRC)
13)Mike Fewings
14)Name withheld
15)Gary Miller
16)Byunghoon Choi
17)Reid Baker
18)Nick O’Dell
19)Time Warner
20)RIAA & IFPI
21)IPC
22)Thomas Smoonlock
23)Vanda Scartezini
24)Tim Kramer
* Bucket Three: unclear.
1)Sven Slootweg
2)Brendan Conniff
3)Marc Schauber
4)Aaron Mason
5)Kevin Szprychel
6)Christopher
7)James Ford
8)Shantanu Gupta
9)Christopher Smith
10)Private
11)Robert Lukitsh
12)Adam Miller
13)Charles
14)Aaron Dalton
15)Stephen Black Wolf
16)Ian McNeil
17)Adam Creighton
18)Arthur Zonnenberg
19)Anand S.
20)Lucas Stadler
21)Alan
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But 10,042 people signed the petition. So even if 273 mentioned "court order", "due process", or subpoena, that means that 9,769 did not. I think we have to interpret the petition to mean what it says if we want to respect the intent of everybody who signed it. And it doesn't say "court order" or "subpoena" (though it could have). It says "verifiable evidence". Which is what Annex E requires. The "evidence" it requires is outlined in Sections II(A), (B), and (C). And then it outlines the processes for P/P Providers to "verify" it in Section C. What am I missing? And just to be clear: I don't think that ANY comments should be taken as an "unequivocal show of support" for Annex E. All of the comments that I reviewed had some concerns about Annex E, and suggested changes to it. But that's not what we're talking about here. We're only talking about accepting the premise of Annex E, which is merely that there are some situations where disclosure is appropriate even without a subpoena or court order. I don't see how this petition challenges that premise at all. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 7, 2015, at 7:27 PM, Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com<mailto:sbockey@godaddy.com>> wrote: Todd, If you look at the actual comments attached to the SDP submission, most commenters are very concerned about their privacy and do not want their details revealed without proof of wrong doing or their consent or due process. The comments are from individuals and should be viewed as part of the petition, http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfCL0NdiQmaL.pd.... If you scan the document, you will see that “Court Order” appears 103 times, “Due Process” appears 102 times, “Subpoena” appears 68 times. I just don’t see how we can take these comments to be an unequivocal show of support for Annex E. Sara From: "Williams, Todd" Date: Friday, August 7, 2015 at 3:16 PM To: Sara Bockey Cc: Kathy Kleiman, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion I don't understand this. How do we interpret "verifiable evidence" to mean a court order? If they had wanted to say "court order" they would have done so like the other comments did. And if I'm presenting a P/P Provider with a court order or subpoena that I've already obtained, why would I present them with any evidence (much less verifiable evidence)? I would have already presented that to the court, no? I don't understand this reading (though I'm happy to listen if someone wants to explain). Thanks. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 7, 2015, at 4:09 PM, Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com<mailto:sbockey@godaddy.com>> wrote: Hi All, I’m just finishing up on my portion of this homework, but I have a question. It just hit me that the Save Domain Privacy petitions have been placed in Bucket 3 – accepts the premise of Annex E – which I don’t believe is correct. I believe those comments belong in Bucket 1/2 that I have been working on, under Category 4 which is “No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse.” The exact petition language is: I, the undersigned, support ● The legitimate use of privacy or proxy services to keep personal information private, protect physical safety, and prevent identity theft ● The use of privacy services by all , for all legal purposes, regardless of whether the website is “commercial” ● That privacy providers should not be forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing I’m not so sure everyone would agree that the words of a requestor in an IP dispute are “verifiable evidence”. These comments belong under “No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse." Thanks, Sara From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" Date: Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 4:15 PM To: Kathy Kleiman, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Kathy: Attached is my first crack at our portion of the summary (on the Bucket Two comments). Let me know if you have any suggested edits, additions, subtractions, etc. Also, I’ve copied the entire sub-team mailing list on this email, for two reasons: 1) So that there is a transparent public record of any back-and-forth red-lining of the document that we may do; and 2) So that Sara and Holly for Bucket One, and Darcy for our miscellaneous bucket, can see what I envision for our summary report to the WG. If you all want to add your summaries to this one to make it consistent in terms of formatting, etc., feel free. I had one thought Sara and Holly for Bucket One (which came to me as I was conceptually dividing our Bucket Two comments into general support, specific support, suggested changes by addition, suggested edits uncontested, suggested edits contested): it may be helpful for the WG if we divide our Bucket One comments into categories along a spectrum. As I envision it (in order along the spectrum): 1) No disclosure/publication ever. 2) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. I would put the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments here. 3) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP). E.g., I think the Google comment would go here. 4) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse. E.g., I think the ICA and EasyDNS comments would go here. For the WG’s sake, we may also want to distinguish between those Bucket One comments that couched their discussion of disclosure/publication in terms of what P/P Providers ought to be required to do (or not required to do) in response to external third-party disclosure requests such as from IP owners or LEA (e.g., the Google and Key Systems comments) vs. those Bucket One comments that simply said “no publication/disclosure absent a court order” without distinguishing b/w whether the impetus for the disclosure was an external third-party request or the P/P Provider’s own desire to disclose/publish (e.g., the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments). Thanks all! TW. From: Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:06 AM To: Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>; Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Whoops, I left out Jawala at the bottom, who should go in bucket two. Sorry. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:01 AM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I’ve added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Tx Mary! Kathy : Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone – this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I’ll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG’s preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though “attached” to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I’m afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team’s Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you’re working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can – with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG’s preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates. I’m happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I’m happy to do that (per Kathy’s suggestion on the call today) while I’m doing the current update anyway. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I’ve been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I’ve attached – I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that): · First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue. · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly’s point though that in this paragraph we should note that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google’s, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, and didn’t accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice. · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that “verifiable evidence of wrongdoing” is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a “higher standard.” From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary. · Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we’re not sure what to do with. That’s how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below: · Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn’t touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I’m pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4’s work). Not that I’m not interested in LE – just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams. · In response to Mary’s email (attached): I agree that I’m not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we’re certainly planning to do), then I don’t see why we’d need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that’s fine. I just don’t see how that helps us get to our final work product. · Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team’s role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that – OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we do about that? – I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I’m just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier. Thanks all! From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx! Hi Everyone First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so. The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from. ==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever. The second is one I’d like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way. ==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency”. (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?) My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket) The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are. ==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead! My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I’d suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex. ==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category. I”ll be having a look at that third category My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not. ==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy Happy to discuss Holly On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:Kathy@kathykleiman.com>> wrote: Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion. Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All of these comments contain a clear call: - No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency. Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool? Best and tx, Kathy : Dear all, Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39. Apologies again for the inadvertent omission – they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I’ll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Hello Todd and everyone, Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list! Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members’ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don’t replace WG members’ reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG’s/Sub Team’s eagle eyes is the best arrangement. Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I’ve taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don’t believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I’ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure. On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd’s suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd’s initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn’t address either – so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate). BTW, Todd, maybe it’s my machine or more likely that I haven’t looked through it in detail, but I’m not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated …. ? Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way! Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Am I the first to try this out? Cool. As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was helpful to illustrate where we’ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn might help us decide what we’ll need to do to get there. Specifically, I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I’d recommend that we do the same. Here are the two that I’d propose: 1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions of the Initial Report beyond Annex E? 2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address the arguments raised in these comments? I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it will help our sub-team “divide and conquer” the work that we have before us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I’m not really sure how we’d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose and/or publish absent a court order isn’t arguing for changes to Annex E; it’s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether. With those two buckets in mind, I’ve taken a first pass through the comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to make sure that they agree with how I’ve tentatively divided the comments? Once we’re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some members want to tackle the third “unclear” category) to start reviewing the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other questions that anybody wants to suggest). Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was compiled? I’m just curious because I want to make sure that our sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For example, I know that Turner’s comment (available here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnSR7.pd...) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn’t included in the attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted it. :) So I want to make sure that there aren’t other comments on Annex E that we also ought to be reviewing. Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody. Todd. Todd D. Williams Counsel Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. One CNN Center, 10 North Atlanta, Georgia 30303 P: 404-827-2234 F: 404-827-1994 todd.williams@turner.com<mailto:todd.williams@turner.com> · Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E. 1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach of material service terms such as Internet abuse) 2) Google 3) 1&1 Internet SE 4) Access Now 5) Endurance Int’l Group 6) Jeff Wheelhouse 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service terms such as net abuse) 8) Greg McMullen 9) Evelyn Aya Snow 10) Ralf Haring 11) Liam 12) Dr M Klinefelter 13) Sam 14) Dan M 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas 16) Not your business 17) Simon Kissane 18) TS 19) Cort Wee 20) Alex Xu 21) Kenneth Godwin 22) Shahed Ahmmed 23) Sebastian Broussier 24) Andrew Merenbach 25) Finn Ellis 26) Aaron Holmes 27) Michael Ekstrand 28) Homer 29) Donuts 30) Michael Ho 31) Key Systems * Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework. 1) BC 2) MPAA 3) ISPCP 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge 5) INTA 6) IACC 7) NCSG 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas 9) Cyberinvasion 10) Phil Crooker 11) Aaron Myers 12) Cui (ADNDRC) 13) Mike Fewings 14) Name withheld 15) Gary Miller 16) Byunghoon Choi 17) Reid Baker 18) Nick O’Dell 19) Time Warner 20) RIAA & IFPI 21) IPC 22) Thomas Smoonlock 23) Vanda Scartezini 24) Tim Kramer * Bucket Three: unclear. 1) Sven Slootweg 2) Brendan Conniff 3) Marc Schauber 4) Aaron Mason 5) Kevin Szprychel 6) Christopher 7) James Ford 8) Shantanu Gupta 9) Christopher Smith 10) Private 11) Robert Lukitsh 12) Adam Miller 13) Charles 14) Aaron Dalton 15) Stephen Black Wolf 16) Ian McNeil 17) Adam Creighton 18) Arthur Zonnenberg 19) Anand S. 20) Lucas Stadler 21) Alan _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3
Fair points, but we also have to respect the intent of those who drafted the petition and the discussions and explanations surrounding the invitation to those who would sign it. If the drafters meant that "verifiable evidence" was analogous to the level of the proof ascertained by a court, that's a very important factor to be considered. Sara, would you like to see all 10K+ comments moved to "court order"? Do you think that some of these comments might apply also to a significant raising of the standard for Annex E? Best, Kathy :
But 10,042 people signed the petition. So even if 273 mentioned "court order", "due process", or subpoena, that means that 9,769 did not. I think we have to interpret the petition to mean what it says if we want to respect the intent of everybody who signed it. And it doesn't say "court order" or "subpoena" (though it could have). It says "verifiable evidence". Which is what Annex E requires. The "evidence" it requires is outlined in Sections II(A), (B), and (C). And then it outlines the processes for P/P Providers to "verify" it in Section C. What am I missing?
And just to be clear: I don't think that ANY comments should be taken as an "unequivocal show of support" for Annex E. All of the comments that I reviewed had some concerns about Annex E, and suggested changes to it. But that's not what we're talking about here. We're only talking about accepting the premise of Annex E, which is merely that there are some situations where disclosure is appropriate even without a subpoena or court order. I don't see how this petition challenges that premise at all.
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 7, 2015, at 7:27 PM, Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com <mailto:sbockey@godaddy.com>> wrote:
Todd,
If you look at the actual comments attached to the SDP submission, most commenters are very concerned about their privacy and do not want their details revealed without proof of wrong doing or their consent or due process. The comments are from individuals and should be viewed as part of the petition, http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfCL0NdiQmaL.pd.... If you scan the document, you will see that “Court Order” appears 103 times, “Due Process” appears 102 times, “Subpoena” appears 68 times.
I just don’t see how we can take these comments to be an unequivocal show of support for Annex E.
Sara
From: "Williams, Todd" Date: Friday, August 7, 2015 at 3:16 PM To: Sara Bockey Cc: Kathy Kleiman, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
I don't understand this. How do we interpret "verifiable evidence" to mean a court order? If they had wanted to say "court order" they would have done so like the other comments did. And if I'm presenting a P/P Provider with a court order or subpoena that I've already obtained, why would I present them with any evidence (much less verifiable evidence)? I would have already presented that to the court, no? I don't understand this reading (though I'm happy to listen if someone wants to explain). Thanks.
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 7, 2015, at 4:09 PM, Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com <mailto:sbockey@godaddy.com>> wrote:
Hi All,
I’m just finishing up on my portion of this homework, but I have a question. It just hit me that the Save Domain Privacy petitions have been placed in Bucket 3 – _accepts the premise of Annex E _– which I don’t believe is correct. I believe those comments belong in Bucket 1/2 that I have been working on, under Category 4 which is “No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse.”
The exact petition language is:
/I, the undersigned, support/
/● //The legitimate use of privacy or proxy services /*/to keep personal information private,/*
*/protect physical safety, and prevent identity theft/*
/● /*/The use of privacy services by all /*/, for all legal purposes, regardless of whether the website/
/is “commercial”/
/● //That privacy providers should not be forced to reveal my private information /*/without/*
*/verifiable evidence /*/of wrongdoing/
I’m not so sure everyone would agree that the words of a requestor in an IP dispute are “verifiable evidence”. These comments belong under “No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), *but with some exceptions for cases of abuse.*"
Thanks,
Sara
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" Date: Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 4:15 PM To: Kathy Kleiman, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Kathy:
Attached is my first crack at our portion of the summary (on the Bucket Two comments). Let me know if you have any suggested edits, additions, subtractions, etc.
Also, I’ve copied the entire sub-team mailing list on this email, for two reasons:
1)So that there is a transparent public record of any back-and-forth red-lining of the document that we may do; and
2)So that Sara and Holly for Bucket One, and Darcy for our miscellaneous bucket, can see what I envision for our summary report to the WG. If you all want to add your summaries to this one to make it consistent in terms of formatting, etc., feel free.
I had one thought Sara and Holly for Bucket One (which came to me as I was conceptually dividing our Bucket Two comments into general support, specific support, suggested changes by addition, suggested edits uncontested, suggested edits contested): it may be helpful for the WG if we divide our Bucket One comments into categories along a spectrum. As I envision it (in order along the spectrum):
1)No disclosure/publication ever.
2)No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. I would put the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments here.
3)No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP). /E.g./, I think the Google comment would go here.
4)No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse. /E.g./, I think the ICA and EasyDNS comments would go here.
For the WG’s sake, we may also want to distinguish between those Bucket One comments that couched their discussion of disclosure/publication in terms of what P/P Providers ought to be required to do (or not required to do) in response to external third-party disclosure requests such as from IP owners or LEA (e.g., the Google and Key Systems comments) vs. those Bucket One comments that simply said “no publication/disclosure absent a court order” without distinguishing b/w whether the impetus for the disclosure was an external third-party request or the P/P Provider’s own desire to disclose/publish (/e.g./, the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments).
Thanks all!
TW.
*From:*Williams, Todd *Sent:* Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:06 AM *To:* Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>; Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com <mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> *Subject:* RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Whoops, I left out Jawala at the bottom, who should go in bucket two. Sorry.
*From:*gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Williams, Todd *Sent:* Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:01 AM *To:* Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com <mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I’ve added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks.
*From:*gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Kathy Kleiman *Sent:* Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM *To:* gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Tx Mary! Kathy :
Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone – this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I’ll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG’s preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though “attached” to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I’m afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team’s Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you’re working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can – with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG’s preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates.
I’m happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I’m happy to do that (per Kathy’s suggestion on the call today) while I’m doing the current update anyway.
Thanks and cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
*From: *<gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> *Date: *Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 *To: *Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com <mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net <mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> *Cc: *"gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> *Subject: *Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I’ve been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I’ve attached – I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that):
·First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue.
·Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly’s point though that in this paragraph we should note that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google’s, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a _court order_, and didn’t accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice.
·Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that “verifiable evidence of wrongdoing” is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a “higher standard.” From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary.
·Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we’re not sure what to do with.
That’s how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below:
·Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn’t touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I’m pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4’s work). Not that I’m not interested in LE – just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams.
·In response to Mary’s email (attached): I agree that I’m not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we’re certainly planning to do), then I don’t see why we’d need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that’s fine. I just don’t see how that helps us get to our final work product.
·Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team’s role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that – OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we */do/* about that? – I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I’m just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier.
Thanks all!
*From:*gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>[mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Kathy Kleiman *Sent:* Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM *To:* Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net <mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> *Cc:* gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx!
Hi Everyone
First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so.
The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from.
==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever.
The second is one I’d like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way.
==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency”. (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?)
My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket)
The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are.
==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead!
My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I’d suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex.
==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category.
I”ll be having a look at that third category
My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not.
==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy
Happy to discuss
Holly
On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com <mailto:Kathy@kathykleiman.com>> wrote:
Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion.
Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled:/ICANN- Respect Our Privacy./All of these comments contain a clear call: */- No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency./*
Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool?
Best and tx, Kathy
:
Dear all,
Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into_ROW 19 for the first question/topic_(General Comments) on PAGE 16, and_ROW 7 for the second question/topic_(Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39.
Apologies again for the inadvertent omission – they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I’ll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly.
Thanks and cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email:mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
*From:*<gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>> *Date:*Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 *To:*"Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> *Subject:*Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan
Hello Todd and everyone,
Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list!
Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members’ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don’t replace WG members’ reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG’s/Sub Team’s eagle eyes is the best arrangement.
Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I’ve taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don’t believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I’ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure.
On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd’s suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd’s initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn’t address either – so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate).
BTW, Todd, maybe it’s my machine or more likely that I haven’t looked through it in detail, but I’m not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated …. ?
Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way!
Cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email:mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
*From:*<gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> *Date:*Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 *To:*"gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> *Subject:*[Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan
Am I the first to try this out? Cool.
As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was helpful to illustrate where we’ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn might help us decide what we’ll need to do to get there. Specifically, I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I’d recommend that we do the same. Here are the two that I’d propose:
1)Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. Presumably this group would present on:
·How many of these comments were there?
·Who did they come from?
·What arguments did they make?
·What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions of the Initial Report beyond Annex E?
2)Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. Presumably this group would present on:
·How many of these comments were there?
·Who did they come from?
·What arguments did they make?
·What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address the arguments raised in these comments?
I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it will help our sub-team “divide and conquer” the work that we have before us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I’m not really sure how we’d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose and/or publish absent a court order isn’t arguing for changes to Annex E; it’s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether.
With those two buckets in mind, I’ve taken a first pass through the comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to make sure that they agree with how I’ve tentatively divided the comments? Once we’re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some members want to tackle the third “unclear” category) to start reviewing the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other questions that anybody wants to suggest).
Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit ofinformation on the methodology of how the attached Word document was compiled? I’m just curious because I want to make sure that our sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For example, I know that Turner’s comment (available here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnSR7.pd...) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn’t included in the attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted it. JSo I want to make sure that there aren’t other comments on Annex E that we also ought to be reviewing.
Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody.
Todd.
Todd D. Williams
Counsel Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. One CNN Center, 10 North
Atlanta, Georgia 30303 P: 404-827-2234
F: 404-827-1994
todd.williams@turner.com <mailto:todd.williams@turner.com>
·Bucket One:rejects the premise of Annex E.
1)Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach of material service terms such as Internet abuse)
2)Google
3)1&1 Internet SE
4)Access Now
5)Endurance Int’l Group
6)Jeff Wheelhouse
7)EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service terms such as net abuse)
8)Greg McMullen
9)Evelyn Aya Snow
10)Ralf Haring
11)Liam
12)Dr M Klinefelter
13)Sam
14)Dan M
15)Adrian Valeriu Ispas
16)Not your business
17)Simon Kissane
18)TS
19)Cort Wee
20)Alex Xu
21)Kenneth Godwin
22)Shahed Ahmmed
23)Sebastian Broussier
24)Andrew Merenbach
25)Finn Ellis
26)Aaron Holmes
27)Michael Ekstrand
28)Homer
29)Donuts
30)Michael Ho
31)Key Systems
* Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework.
1)BC
2)MPAA
3)ISPCP
4)CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge
5)INTA
6)IACC
7)NCSG
8)Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas
9)Cyberinvasion
10)Phil Crooker
11)Aaron Myers
12)Cui (ADNDRC)
13)Mike Fewings
14)Name withheld
15)Gary Miller
16)Byunghoon Choi
17)Reid Baker
18)Nick O’Dell
19)Time Warner
20)RIAA & IFPI
21)IPC
22)Thomas Smoonlock
23)Vanda Scartezini
24)Tim Kramer
* Bucket Three: unclear.
1)Sven Slootweg
2)Brendan Conniff
3)Marc Schauber
4)Aaron Mason
5)Kevin Szprychel
6)Christopher
7)James Ford
8)Shantanu Gupta
9)Christopher Smith
10)Private
11)Robert Lukitsh
12)Adam Miller
13)Charles
14)Aaron Dalton
15)Stephen Black Wolf
16)Ian McNeil
17)Adam Creighton
18)Arthur Zonnenberg
19)Anand S.
20)Lucas Stadler
21)Alan
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Folks I’m sorry not to respond sooner but, having done a bit of reading and thinking, I agree with Sara’s analysis. Verifiable evidence is what Annex E was aiming at. And I agree that ‘verifiable evidence’ is not unequivocal support for the Annex. But it is clearly outside the first two categories. (the no, not ever, and the only in the case of some kind of legal process - court order/subpoena) (and Todd, for the record, I am suggesting collapsing your categories 2 and 3 into a category that says only after some kind of court process - and emphasise the word process - rather than simply a legal opinion ) And Kathy - the trouble with looking for intention is we stray into second guessing what people might have signed or what drafters meant. Do we really want to go back and ask the drafters what they meant, and then go back to the thousands of signatories to ask if they really meant what they signed. Maybe the wording was poor, but people did sign it, and LOTS of others did manage to convey either the no, not ever, or the only after a court process/subpoena. I think we must stick to the words people used or signed off on. Holly On 9 Aug 2015, at 1:40 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com> wrote:
Fair points, but we also have to respect the intent of those who drafted the petition and the discussions and explanations surrounding the invitation to those who would sign it. If the drafters meant that "verifiable evidence" was analogous to the level of the proof ascertained by a court, that's a very important factor to be considered.
Sara, would you like to see all 10K+ comments moved to "court order"? Do you think that some of these comments might apply also to a significant raising of the standard for Annex E?
Best, Kathy
:
But 10,042 people signed the petition. So even if 273 mentioned "court order", "due process", or subpoena, that means that 9,769 did not. I think we have to interpret the petition to mean what it says if we want to respect the intent of everybody who signed it. And it doesn't say "court order" or "subpoena" (though it could have). It says "verifiable evidence". Which is what Annex E requires. The "evidence" it requires is outlined in Sections II(A), (B), and (C). And then it outlines the processes for P/P Providers to "verify" it in Section C. What am I missing?
And just to be clear: I don't think that ANY comments should be taken as an "unequivocal show of support" for Annex E. All of the comments that I reviewed had some concerns about Annex E, and suggested changes to it. But that's not what we're talking about here. We're only talking about accepting the premise of Annex E, which is merely that there are some situations where disclosure is appropriate even without a subpoena or court order. I don't see how this petition challenges that premise at all.
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 7, 2015, at 7:27 PM, Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com> wrote:
Todd,
If you look at the actual comments attached to the SDP submission, most commenters are very concerned about their privacy and do not want their details revealed without proof of wrong doing or their consent or due process. The comments are from individuals and should be viewed as part of the petition, http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfCL0NdiQmaL.pd.... If you scan the document, you will see that “Court Order” appears 103 times, “Due Process” appears 102 times, “Subpoena” appears 68 times.
I just don’t see how we can take these comments to be an unequivocal show of support for Annex E.
Sara
From: "Williams, Todd" Date: Friday, August 7, 2015 at 3:16 PM To: Sara Bockey Cc: Kathy Kleiman, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
I don't understand this. How do we interpret "verifiable evidence" to mean a court order? If they had wanted to say "court order" they would have done so like the other comments did. And if I'm presenting a P/P Provider with a court order or subpoena that I've already obtained, why would I present them with any evidence (much less verifiable evidence)? I would have already presented that to the court, no? I don't understand this reading (though I'm happy to listen if someone wants to explain). Thanks.
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 7, 2015, at 4:09 PM, Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com> wrote:
Hi All,
I’m just finishing up on my portion of this homework, but I have a question. It just hit me that the Save Domain Privacy petitions have been placed in Bucket 3 – accepts the premise of Annex E– which I don’t believe is correct. I believe those comments belong in Bucket 1/2 that I have been working on, under Category 4 which is “No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse.”
The exact petition language is:
I, the undersigned, support ● The legitimate use of privacy or proxy services to keep personal information private, protect physical safety, and prevent identity theft ● The use of privacy services by all , for all legal purposes, regardless of whether the website is “commercial” ● That privacy providers should not be forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing
I’m not so sure everyone would agree that the words of a requestor in an IP dispute are “verifiable evidence”. These comments belong under “No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse."
Thanks,
Sara
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" Date: Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 4:15 PM To: Kathy Kleiman, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Kathy:
Attached is my first crack at our portion of the summary (on the Bucket Two comments). Let me know if you have any suggested edits, additions, subtractions, etc.
Also, I’ve copied the entire sub-team mailing list on this email, for two reasons:
1) So that there is a transparent public record of any back-and-forth red-lining of the document that we may do; and 2) So that Sara and Holly for Bucket One, and Darcy for our miscellaneous bucket, can see what I envision for our summary report to the WG. If you all want to add your summaries to this one to make it consistent in terms of formatting, etc., feel free.
I had one thought Sara and Holly for Bucket One (which came to me as I was conceptually dividing our Bucket Two comments into general support, specific support, suggested changes by addition, suggested edits uncontested, suggested edits contested): it may be helpful for the WG if we divide our Bucket One comments into categories along a spectrum. As I envision it (in order along the spectrum):
1) No disclosure/publication ever. 2) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. I would put the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments here. 3) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP). E.g., I think the Google comment would go here. 4) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse. E.g., I think the ICA and EasyDNS comments would go here.
For the WG’s sake, we may also want to distinguish between those Bucket One comments that couched their discussion of disclosure/publication in terms of what P/P Providers ought to be required to do (or not required to do) in response to external third-party disclosure requests such as from IP owners or LEA (e.g., the Google and Key Systems comments) vs. those Bucket One comments that simply said “no publication/disclosure absent a court order” without distinguishing b/w whether the impetus for the disclosure was an external third-party request or the P/P Provider’s own desire to disclose/publish (e.g., the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments).
Thanks all!
TW.
From: Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:06 AM To: Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com>; Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Whoops, I left out Jawala at the bottom, who should go in bucket two. Sorry.
From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:01 AM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I’ve added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks.
From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Tx Mary! Kathy : Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone – this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I’ll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG’s preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though “attached” to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I’m afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team’s Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you’re working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can – with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG’s preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates.
I’m happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I’m happy to do that (per Kathy’s suggestion on the call today) while I’m doing the current update anyway.
Thanks and cheers Mary
Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com> Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net> Cc: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I’ve been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I’ve attached – I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that):
· First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue. · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly’s point though that in this paragraph we should note that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google’s, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, and didn’t accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice. · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that “verifiable evidence of wrongdoing” is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a “higher standard.” From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary. · Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we’re not sure what to do with.
That’s how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below:
· Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn’t touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I’m pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4’s work). Not that I’m not interested in LE – just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams. · In response to Mary’s email (attached): I agree that I’m not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we’re certainly planning to do), then I don’t see why we’d need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that’s fine. I just don’t see how that helps us get to our final work product. · Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team’s role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that – OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we do about that? – I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I’m just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier.
Thanks all!
From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net> Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx! Hi Everyone
First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so.
The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from.
==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever.
The second is one I’d like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way. ==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency”. (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?)
My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket)
The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are.
==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead!
My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I’d suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex. ==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category.
I”ll be having a look at that third category
My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not.
==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy
Happy to discuss
Holly
On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com> wrote:
Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion.
Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All of these comments contain a clear call: - No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency.
Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool?
Best and tx, Kathy
: Dear all,
Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39.
Apologies again for the inadvertent omission – they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I’ll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly.
Thanks and cheers Mary
Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan
Hello Todd and everyone,
Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list!
Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members’ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don’t replace WG members’ reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG’s/Sub Team’s eagle eyes is the best arrangement.
Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I’ve taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don’t believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I’ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure.
On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd’s suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd’s initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn’t address either – so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate).
BTW, Todd, maybe it’s my machine or more likely that I haven’t looked through it in detail, but I’m not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated …. ?
Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way!
Cheers Mary
Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan
Am I the first to try this out? Cool.
As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was helpful to illustrate where we’ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn might help us decide what we’ll need to do to get there. Specifically, I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I’d recommend that we do the same. Here are the two that I’d propose:
1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions of the Initial Report beyond Annex E? 2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address the arguments raised in these comments?
I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it will help our sub-team “divide and conquer” the work that we have before us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I’m not really sure how we’d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose and/or publish absent a court order isn’t arguing for changes to Annex E; it’s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether.
With those two buckets in mind, I’ve taken a first pass through the comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to make sure that they agree with how I’ve tentatively divided the comments? Once we’re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some members want to tackle the third “unclear” category) to start reviewing the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other questions that anybody wants to suggest).
Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was compiled? I’m just curious because I want to make sure that our sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For example, I know that Turner’s comment (available here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnSR7.pd...) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn’t included in the attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted it. J So I want to make sure that there aren’t other comments on Annex E that we also ought to be reviewing.
Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody.
Todd.
Todd D. Williams Counsel Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. One CNN Center, 10 North Atlanta, Georgia 30303 P: 404-827-2234 F: 404-827-1994 todd.williams@turner.com
· Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E. 1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach of material service terms such as Internet abuse) 2) Google 3) 1&1 Internet SE 4) Access Now 5) Endurance Int’l Group 6) Jeff Wheelhouse 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service terms such as net abuse) 8) Greg McMullen 9) Evelyn Aya Snow 10) Ralf Haring 11) Liam 12) Dr M Klinefelter 13) Sam 14) Dan M 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas 16) Not your business 17) Simon Kissane 18) TS 19) Cort Wee 20) Alex Xu 21) Kenneth Godwin 22) Shahed Ahmmed 23) Sebastian Broussier 24) Andrew Merenbach 25) Finn Ellis 26) Aaron Holmes 27) Michael Ekstrand 28) Homer 29) Donuts 30) Michael Ho 31) Key Systems Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework. 1) BC 2) MPAA 3) ISPCP 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge 5) INTA 6) IACC 7) NCSG 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas 9) Cyberinvasion 10) Phil Crooker 11) Aaron Myers 12) Cui (ADNDRC) 13) Mike Fewings 14) Name withheld 15) Gary Miller 16) Byunghoon Choi 17) Reid Baker 18) Nick O’Dell 19) Time Warner 20) RIAA & IFPI 21) IPC 22) Thomas Smoonlock 23) Vanda Scartezini 24) Tim Kramer Bucket Three: unclear. 1) Sven Slootweg 2) Brendan Conniff 3) Marc Schauber 4) Aaron Mason 5) Kevin Szprychel 6) Christopher 7) James Ford 8) Shantanu Gupta 9) Christopher Smith 10) Private 11) Robert Lukitsh 12) Adam Miller 13) Charles 14) Aaron Dalton 15) Stephen Black Wolf 16) Ian McNeil 17) Adam Creighton 18) Arthur Zonnenberg 19) Anand S. 20) Lucas Stadler 21) Alan
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So wait, I might be getting a little bit confused with these emails. Sara and I had been having a good debate on how to interpret the 10,042 Save Domain Privacy comments. And as part of that, I agree with Holly’s comments below: “verifiable evidence” – while not unequivocal support for Annex E (as I mentioned, nobody expressed unequivocal support for Annex E) – certainly is what Annex E was aiming at, and is much more easily interpreted to mean that than to mean no, not ever, or only after a court process/subpoena (which, as Holly points out, LOTS of other comments managed to convey clearly). In other words, I think Holly’s analysis/interpretation and mine are the same, which is why I’m a little bit confused Holly why you said you agree with Sara’s analysis. From: Holly Raiche [mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net] Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 4:17 AM To: Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com> Cc: Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com>; Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Folks I’m sorry not to respond sooner but, having done a bit of reading and thinking, I agree with Sara’s analysis. Verifiable evidence is what Annex E was aiming at. And I agree that ‘verifiable evidence’ is not unequivocal support for the Annex. But it is clearly outside the first two categories. (the no, not ever, and the only in the case of some kind of legal process - court order/subpoena) (and Todd, for the record, I am suggesting collapsing your categories 2 and 3 into a category that says only after some kind of court process - and emphasise the word process - rather than simply a legal opinion ) And Kathy - the trouble with looking for intention is we stray into second guessing what people might have signed or what drafters meant. Do we really want to go back and ask the drafters what they meant, and then go back to the thousands of signatories to ask if they really meant what they signed. Maybe the wording was poor, but people did sign it, and LOTS of others did manage to convey either the no, not ever, or the only after a court process/subpoena. I think we must stick to the words people used or signed off on. Holly On 9 Aug 2015, at 1:40 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:Kathy@kathykleiman.com>> wrote: Fair points, but we also have to respect the intent of those who drafted the petition and the discussions and explanations surrounding the invitation to those who would sign it. If the drafters meant that "verifiable evidence" was analogous to the level of the proof ascertained by a court, that's a very important factor to be considered. Sara, would you like to see all 10K+ comments moved to "court order"? Do you think that some of these comments might apply also to a significant raising of the standard for Annex E? Best, Kathy : But 10,042 people signed the petition. So even if 273 mentioned "court order", "due process", or subpoena, that means that 9,769 did not. I think we have to interpret the petition to mean what it says if we want to respect the intent of everybody who signed it. And it doesn't say "court order" or "subpoena" (though it could have). It says "verifiable evidence". Which is what Annex E requires. The "evidence" it requires is outlined in Sections II(A), (B), and (C). And then it outlines the processes for P/P Providers to "verify" it in Section C. What am I missing? And just to be clear: I don't think that ANY comments should be taken as an "unequivocal show of support" for Annex E. All of the comments that I reviewed had some concerns about Annex E, and suggested changes to it. But that's not what we're talking about here. We're only talking about accepting the premise of Annex E, which is merely that there are some situations where disclosure is appropriate even without a subpoena or court order. I don't see how this petition challenges that premise at all. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 7, 2015, at 7:27 PM, Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com<mailto:sbockey@godaddy.com>> wrote: Todd, If you look at the actual comments attached to the SDP submission, most commenters are very concerned about their privacy and do not want their details revealed without proof of wrong doing or their consent or due process. The comments are from individuals and should be viewed as part of the petition, http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfCL0NdiQmaL.pd.... If you scan the document, you will see that “Court Order” appears 103 times, “Due Process” appears 102 times, “Subpoena” appears 68 times. I just don’t see how we can take these comments to be an unequivocal show of support for Annex E. Sara From: "Williams, Todd" Date: Friday, August 7, 2015 at 3:16 PM To: Sara Bockey Cc: Kathy Kleiman, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion I don't understand this. How do we interpret "verifiable evidence" to mean a court order? If they had wanted to say "court order" they would have done so like the other comments did. And if I'm presenting a P/P Provider with a court order or subpoena that I've already obtained, why would I present them with any evidence (much less verifiable evidence)? I would have already presented that to the court, no? I don't understand this reading (though I'm happy to listen if someone wants to explain). Thanks. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 7, 2015, at 4:09 PM, Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com<mailto:sbockey@godaddy.com>> wrote: Hi All, I’m just finishing up on my portion of this homework, but I have a question. It just hit me that the Save Domain Privacy petitions have been placed in Bucket 3 – accepts the premise of Annex E– which I don’t believe is correct. I believe those comments belong in Bucket 1/2 that I have been working on, under Category 4 which is “No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse.” The exact petition language is: I, the undersigned, support ● The legitimate use of privacy or proxy services to keep personal information private, protect physical safety, and prevent identity theft ● The use of privacy services by all , for all legal purposes, regardless of whether the website is “commercial” ● That privacy providers should not be forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing I’m not so sure everyone would agree that the words of a requestor in an IP dispute are “verifiable evidence”. These comments belong under “No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse." Thanks, Sara From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" Date: Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 4:15 PM To: Kathy Kleiman, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Kathy: Attached is my first crack at our portion of the summary (on the Bucket Two comments). Let me know if you have any suggested edits, additions, subtractions, etc. Also, I’ve copied the entire sub-team mailing list on this email, for two reasons: 1) So that there is a transparent public record of any back-and-forth red-lining of the document that we may do; and 2) So that Sara and Holly for Bucket One, and Darcy for our miscellaneous bucket, can see what I envision for our summary report to the WG. If you all want to add your summaries to this one to make it consistent in terms of formatting, etc., feel free. I had one thought Sara and Holly for Bucket One (which came to me as I was conceptually dividing our Bucket Two comments into general support, specific support, suggested changes by addition, suggested edits uncontested, suggested edits contested): it may be helpful for the WG if we divide our Bucket One comments into categories along a spectrum. As I envision it (in order along the spectrum): 1) No disclosure/publication ever. 2) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. I would put the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments here. 3) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP). E.g., I think the Google comment would go here. 4) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse. E.g., I think the ICA and EasyDNS comments would go here. For the WG’s sake, we may also want to distinguish between those Bucket One comments that couched their discussion of disclosure/publication in terms of what P/P Providers ought to be required to do (or not required to do) in response to external third-party disclosure requests such as from IP owners or LEA (e.g., the Google and Key Systems comments) vs. those Bucket One comments that simply said “no publication/disclosure absent a court order” without distinguishing b/w whether the impetus for the disclosure was an external third-party request or the P/P Provider’s own desire to disclose/publish (e.g., the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments). Thanks all! TW. From: Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:06 AM To: Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>; Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Whoops, I left out Jawala at the bottom, who should go in bucket two. Sorry. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:01 AM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I’ve added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Tx Mary! Kathy : Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone – this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I’ll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG’s preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though “attached” to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I’m afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team’s Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you’re working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can – with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG’s preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates. I’m happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I’m happy to do that (per Kathy’s suggestion on the call today) while I’m doing the current update anyway. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I’ve been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I’ve attached – I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that): · First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue. · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly’s point though that in this paragraph we should note that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google’s, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, and didn’t accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice. · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that “verifiable evidence of wrongdoing” is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a “higher standard.” From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary. · Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we’re not sure what to do with. That’s how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below: · Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn’t touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I’m pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4’s work). Not that I’m not interested in LE – just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams. · In response to Mary’s email (attached): I agree that I’m not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we’re certainly planning to do), then I don’t see why we’d need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that’s fine. I just don’t see how that helps us get to our final work product. · Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team’s role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that – OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we do about that? – I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I’m just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier. Thanks all! From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx! Hi Everyone First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so. The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from. ==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever. The second is one I’d like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way. ==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency”. (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?) My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket) The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are. ==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead! My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I’d suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex. ==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category. I”ll be having a look at that third category My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not. ==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy Happy to discuss Holly On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:Kathy@kathykleiman.com>> wrote: Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion. Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All of these comments contain a clear call: - No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency. Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool? Best and tx, Kathy : Dear all, Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39. Apologies again for the inadvertent omission – they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I’ll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Hello Todd and everyone, Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list! Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members’ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don’t replace WG members’ reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG’s/Sub Team’s eagle eyes is the best arrangement. Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I’ve taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don’t believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I’ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure. On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd’s suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd’s initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn’t address either – so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate). BTW, Todd, maybe it’s my machine or more likely that I haven’t looked through it in detail, but I’m not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated …. ? Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way! Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Am I the first to try this out? Cool. As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was helpful to illustrate where we’ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn might help us decide what we’ll need to do to get there. Specifically, I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I’d recommend that we do the same. Here are the two that I’d propose: 1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions of the Initial Report beyond Annex E? 2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address the arguments raised in these comments? I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it will help our sub-team “divide and conquer” the work that we have before us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I’m not really sure how we’d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose and/or publish absent a court order isn’t arguing for changes to Annex E; it’s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether. With those two buckets in mind, I’ve taken a first pass through the comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to make sure that they agree with how I’ve tentatively divided the comments? Once we’re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some members want to tackle the third “unclear” category) to start reviewing the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other questions that anybody wants to suggest). Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was compiled? I’m just curious because I want to make sure that our sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For example, I know that Turner’s comment (available here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnSR7.pd...) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn’t included in the attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted it. ☺ So I want to make sure that there aren’t other comments on Annex E that we also ought to be reviewing. Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody. Todd. Todd D. Williams Counsel Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. One CNN Center, 10 North Atlanta, Georgia 30303 P: 404-827-2234 F: 404-827-1994 todd.williams@turner.com<mailto:todd.williams@turner.com> · Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E. 1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach of material service terms such as Internet abuse) 2) Google 3) 1&1 Internet SE 4) Access Now 5) Endurance Int’l Group 6) Jeff Wheelhouse 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service terms such as net abuse) 8) Greg McMullen 9) Evelyn Aya Snow 10) Ralf Haring 11) Liam 12) Dr M Klinefelter 13) Sam 14) Dan M 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas 16) Not your business 17) Simon Kissane 18) TS 19) Cort Wee 20) Alex Xu 21) Kenneth Godwin 22) Shahed Ahmmed 23) Sebastian Broussier 24) Andrew Merenbach 25) Finn Ellis 26) Aaron Holmes 27) Michael Ekstrand 28) Homer 29) Donuts 30) Michael Ho 31) Key Systems * Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework. 1) BC 2) MPAA 3) ISPCP 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge 5) INTA 6) IACC 7) NCSG 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas 9) Cyberinvasion 10) Phil Crooker 11) Aaron Myers 12) Cui (ADNDRC) 13) Mike Fewings 14) Name withheld 15) Gary Miller 16) Byunghoon Choi 17) Reid Baker 18) Nick O’Dell 19) Time Warner 20) RIAA & IFPI 21) IPC 22) Thomas Smoonlock 23) Vanda Scartezini 24) Tim Kramer * Bucket Three: unclear. 1) Sven Slootweg 2) Brendan Conniff 3) Marc Schauber 4) Aaron Mason 5) Kevin Szprychel 6) Christopher 7) James Ford 8) Shantanu Gupta 9) Christopher Smith 10) Private 11) Robert Lukitsh 12) Adam Miller 13) Charles 14) Aaron Dalton 15) Stephen Black Wolf 16) Ian McNeil 17) Adam Creighton 18) Arthur Zonnenberg 19) Anand S. 20) Lucas Stadler 21) Alan _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3
Hi Todd and All, Nice job! I reviewed the entire document and attached is my crack at our summary. I think it includes everyone additions and edits to date (but please check!). I've lost track of who drafted what sections, but I think we are moving in the right direction. Some really good work has been done. I made one small change and two bigger ones and few general edits. The small change is removing the reference to contested and uncontested edits since I am not sure what an uncontested edit and whether commenters would have contested it if they knew what the proposed edit would be. (Unfortunately, since our "Reply Comment" period was removed by ICANN, we don't have this important reply time to review others edits and support or contest them.). I also added in two short paragraphs. The first one describes the Save Domains Privacy comments, the petition language, and the discussion now in place in our sub-team over the meaning of these comments. Perhaps others in the WG can help us shed light on the questions being raised in our sub-team. The second paragraph summarizes the 11,000 Respect Our Privacy comments. They told us that "No one's personal information should be revealed without a court order," and of course, we should reflect them in our summary. On my machine, my redlines appear in red, and the prior editor's redlines (for the paragraphs at the end starting "Finally, our sub-team reviewed and analyzed 21 miscellaneous comments...") appear in grey. I hope these redlines are clear for you too. Best and enjoy the rest of the weekend, Kathy :
Kathy:
Attached is my first crack at our portion of the summary (on the Bucket Two comments). Let me know if you have any suggested edits, additions, subtractions, etc.
Also, I’ve copied the entire sub-team mailing list on this email, for two reasons:
1)So that there is a transparent public record of any back-and-forth red-lining of the document that we may do; and
2)So that Sara and Holly for Bucket One, and Darcy for our miscellaneous bucket, can see what I envision for our summary report to the WG. If you all want to add your summaries to this one to make it consistent in terms of formatting, etc., feel free.
I had one thought Sara and Holly for Bucket One (which came to me as I was conceptually dividing our Bucket Two comments into general support, specific support, suggested changes by addition, suggested edits uncontested, suggested edits contested): it may be helpful for the WG if we divide our Bucket One comments into categories along a spectrum. As I envision it (in order along the spectrum):
1)No disclosure/publication ever.
2)No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. I would put the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments here.
3)No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP). /E.g./, I think the Google comment would go here.
4)No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse. /E.g./, I think the ICA and EasyDNS comments would go here.
For the WG’s sake, we may also want to distinguish between those Bucket One comments that couched their discussion of disclosure/publication in terms of what P/P Providers ought to be required to do (or not required to do) in response to external third-party disclosure requests such as from IP owners or LEA (e.g., the Google and Key Systems comments) vs. those Bucket One comments that simply said “no publication/disclosure absent a court order” without distinguishing b/w whether the impetus for the disclosure was an external third-party request or the P/P Provider’s own desire to disclose/publish (/e.g./, the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments).
Thanks all!
TW.
*From:*Williams, Todd *Sent:* Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:06 AM *To:* Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com>; Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org *Subject:* RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Whoops, I left out Jawala at the bottom, who should go in bucket two. Sorry.
*From:*gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Williams, Todd *Sent:* Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:01 AM *To:* Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com <mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I’ve added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks.
*From:*gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Kathy Kleiman *Sent:* Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM *To:* gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Tx Mary! Kathy :
Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone – this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I’ll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG’s preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though “attached” to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I’m afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team’s Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you’re working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can – with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG’s preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates.
I’m happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I’m happy to do that (per Kathy’s suggestion on the call today) while I’m doing the current update anyway.
Thanks and cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
*From: *<gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> *Date: *Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 *To: *Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com <mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net <mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> *Cc: *"gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> *Subject: *Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I’ve been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I’ve attached – I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that):
·First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue.
·Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly’s point though that in this paragraph we should note that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google’s, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a _court order_, and didn’t accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice.
·Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that “verifiable evidence of wrongdoing” is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a “higher standard.” From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary.
·Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we’re not sure what to do with.
That’s how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below:
·Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn’t touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I’m pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4’s work). Not that I’m not interested in LE – just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams.
·In response to Mary’s email (attached): I agree that I’m not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we’re certainly planning to do), then I don’t see why we’d need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that’s fine. I just don’t see how that helps us get to our final work product.
·Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team’s role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that – OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we */do/* about that? – I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I’m just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier.
Thanks all!
*From:*gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>[mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Kathy Kleiman *Sent:* Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM *To:* Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net <mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> *Cc:* gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx!
Hi Everyone
First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so.
The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from.
==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever.
The second is one I’d like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way.
==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency”. (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?)
My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket)
The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are.
==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead!
My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I’d suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex.
==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category.
I”ll be having a look at that third category
My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not.
==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy
Happy to discuss
Holly
On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com <mailto:Kathy@kathykleiman.com>> wrote:
Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion.
Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled:/ICANN- Respect Our Privacy./All of these comments contain a clear call: */- No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency./*
Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool?
Best and tx, Kathy
:
Dear all,
Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into_ROW 19 for the first question/topic_(General Comments) on PAGE 16, and_ROW 7 for the second question/topic_(Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39.
Apologies again for the inadvertent omission – they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I’ll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly.
Thanks and cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email:mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
*From:*<gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>> *Date:*Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 *To:*"Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> *Subject:*Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan
Hello Todd and everyone,
Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list!
Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members’ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don’t replace WG members’ reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG’s/Sub Team’s eagle eyes is the best arrangement.
Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I’ve taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don’t believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I’ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure.
On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd’s suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd’s initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn’t address either – so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate).
BTW, Todd, maybe it’s my machine or more likely that I haven’t looked through it in detail, but I’m not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated …. ?
Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way!
Cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email:mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
*From:*<gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> *Date:*Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 *To:*"gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> *Subject:*[Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan
Am I the first to try this out? Cool.
As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was helpful to illustrate where we’ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn might help us decide what we’ll need to do to get there. Specifically, I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I’d recommend that we do the same. Here are the two that I’d propose:
1)Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. Presumably this group would present on:
·How many of these comments were there?
·Who did they come from?
·What arguments did they make?
·What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions of the Initial Report beyond Annex E?
2)Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. Presumably this group would present on:
·How many of these comments were there?
·Who did they come from?
·What arguments did they make?
·What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address the arguments raised in these comments?
I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it will help our sub-team “divide and conquer” the work that we have before us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I’m not really sure how we’d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose and/or publish absent a court order isn’t arguing for changes to Annex E; it’s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether.
With those two buckets in mind, I’ve taken a first pass through the comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to make sure that they agree with how I’ve tentatively divided the comments? Once we’re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some members want to tackle the third “unclear” category) to start reviewing the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other questions that anybody wants to suggest).
Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit ofinformation on the methodology of how the attached Word document was compiled? I’m just curious because I want to make sure that our sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For example, I know that Turner’s comment (available here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnSR7.pd...) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn’t included in the attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted it. JSo I want to make sure that there aren’t other comments on Annex E that we also ought to be reviewing.
Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody.
Todd.
Todd D. Williams
Counsel Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. One CNN Center, 10 North
Atlanta, Georgia 30303 P: 404-827-2234
F: 404-827-1994
todd.williams@turner.com <mailto:todd.williams@turner.com>
·Bucket One:rejects the premise of Annex E.
1)Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach of material service terms such as Internet abuse)
2)Google
3)1&1 Internet SE
4)Access Now
5)Endurance Int’l Group
6)Jeff Wheelhouse
7)EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service terms such as net abuse)
8)Greg McMullen
9)Evelyn Aya Snow
10)Ralf Haring
11)Liam
12)Dr M Klinefelter
13)Sam
14)Dan M
15)Adrian Valeriu Ispas
16)Not your business
17)Simon Kissane
18)TS
19)Cort Wee
20)Alex Xu
21)Kenneth Godwin
22)Shahed Ahmmed
23)Sebastian Broussier
24)Andrew Merenbach
25)Finn Ellis
26)Aaron Holmes
27)Michael Ekstrand
28)Homer
29)Donuts
30)Michael Ho
31)Key Systems
* Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework.
1)BC
2)MPAA
3)ISPCP
4)CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge
5)INTA
6)IACC
7)NCSG
8)Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas
9)Cyberinvasion
10)Phil Crooker
11)Aaron Myers
12)Cui (ADNDRC)
13)Mike Fewings
14)Name withheld
15)Gary Miller
16)Byunghoon Choi
17)Reid Baker
18)Nick O’Dell
19)Time Warner
20)RIAA & IFPI
21)IPC
22)Thomas Smoonlock
23)Vanda Scartezini
24)Tim Kramer
* Bucket Three: unclear.
1)Sven Slootweg
2)Brendan Conniff
3)Marc Schauber
4)Aaron Mason
5)Kevin Szprychel
6)Christopher
7)James Ford
8)Shantanu Gupta
9)Christopher Smith
10)Private
11)Robert Lukitsh
12)Adam Miller
13)Charles
14)Aaron Dalton
15)Stephen Black Wolf
16)Ian McNeil
17)Adam Creighton
18)Arthur Zonnenberg
19)Anand S.
20)Lucas Stadler
21)Alan
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Thanks everyone, that is a lot of work and a document that will clearly help advance the WG¹s progress quite a bit! Kathy can I confirm that the document you edited is Darcy¹s update to Todd¹s last version, and so does not include what was added/sent by Sara? I¹m trying to keep all the drafts clear and ordered, and that¹s what it looks like to me. If that¹s the case, I will add Sara¹s report to Kathy¹s document (unless there are further changes between now and the WG call on Tuesday). I¹ll then upload the consolidated draft document and have that ready for the WG at the Tuesday meeting. All it seems to me that the question as to where the comments relating to ³verifiable evidence² should fit is a question that you may wish to bring back to the WG on Tuesday, if there is still no agreement amongst yourselves by then. Finally two minor suggested changes, both to do with numbers: first, I¹d suggest that instead of saying 10,042 comments came with the Save Domain Privacy petition we should say that the petition had 10,042 signatories. Secondly, I suggest adding the word ³approximately² to the 11,000 Respect Your Privacy comments. I hope this helps, and thank you all again. Following the WG call on Tuesday, please let me know how you would like to proceed and if there is a need for the Sub Team to get together for a call to discuss its final recommendations to the WG (due in about 2-3 weeks from this Tuesday, according to the current WG Work Plan). Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com> Date: Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 18:40 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Hi Todd and All, Nice job! I reviewed the entire document and attached is my crack at our summary. I think it includes everyone additions and edits to date (but please check!).
I've lost track of who drafted what sections, but I think we are moving in the right direction. Some really good work has been done. I made one small change and two bigger ones and few general edits. The small change is removing the reference to contested and uncontested edits since I am not sure what an uncontested edit and whether commenters would have contested it if they knew what the proposed edit would be. (Unfortunately, since our "Reply Comment" period was removed by ICANN, we don't have this important reply time to review others edits and support or contest them.).
I also added in two short paragraphs. The first one describes the Save Domains Privacy comments, the petition language, and the discussion now in place in our sub-team over the meaning of these comments. Perhaps others in the WG can help us shed light on the questions being raised in our sub-team.
The second paragraph summarizes the 11,000 Respect Our Privacy comments. They told us that "No one's personal information should be revealed without a court order," and of course, we should reflect them in our summary.
On my machine, my redlines appear in red, and the prior editor's redlines (for the paragraphs at the end starting "Finally, our sub-team reviewed and analyzed 21 miscellaneous comments...") appear in grey. I hope these redlines are clear for you too.
Best and enjoy the rest of the weekend, Kathy
:
Kathy:
Attached is my first crack at our portion of the summary (on the Bucket Two comments). Let me know if you have any suggested edits, additions, subtractions, etc.
Also, I¹ve copied the entire sub-team mailing list on this email, for two reasons:
1) So that there is a transparent public record of any back-and-forth red-lining of the document that we may do; and
2) So that Sara and Holly for Bucket One, and Darcy for our miscellaneous bucket, can see what I envision for our summary report to the WG. If you all want to add your summaries to this one to make it consistent in terms of formatting, etc., feel free.
I had one thought Sara and Holly for Bucket One (which came to me as I was conceptually dividing our Bucket Two comments into general support, specific support, suggested changes by addition, suggested edits uncontested, suggested edits contested): it may be helpful for the WG if we divide our Bucket One comments into categories along a spectrum. As I envision it (in order along the spectrum):
1) No disclosure/publication ever.
2) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. I would put the 10,000+ ³Respect our Privacy² comments here.
3) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP). E.g., I think the Google comment would go here.
4) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse. E.g., I think the ICA and EasyDNS comments would go here.
For the WG¹s sake, we may also want to distinguish between those Bucket One comments that couched their discussion of disclosure/publication in terms of what P/P Providers ought to be required to do (or not required to do) in response to external third-party disclosure requests such as from IP owners or LEA (e.g., the Google and Key Systems comments) vs. those Bucket One comments that simply said ³no publication/disclosure absent a court order² without distinguishing b/w whether the impetus for the disclosure was an external third-party request or the P/P Provider¹s own desire to disclose/publish (e.g., the 10,000+ ³Respect our Privacy² comments).
Thanks all!
TW.
From: Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:06 AM To: Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com> <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com> ; Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com> <mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com> ; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Whoops, I left out Jawala at the bottom, who should go in bucket two. Sorry.
From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:01 AM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I¹ve added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks.
From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Tx Mary! Kathy :
Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I¹ll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG¹s preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though ³attached² to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I¹m afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team¹s Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you¹re working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG¹s preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates.
I¹m happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I¹m happy to do that (per Kathy¹s suggestion on the call today) while I¹m doing the current update anyway.
Thanks and cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>
on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com> > Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com <mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com> >, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net <mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net> > Cc: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> " <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I¹ve been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I¹ve attached I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that):
· First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG¹s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue.
· Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG¹s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the ³Respect our Privacy² submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly¹s point though that in this paragraph we should note that the ³Respect our Privacy² submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google¹s, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, and didn¹t accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice.
· Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG¹s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that ³verifiable evidence of wrongdoing² is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a ³higher standard.² From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary.
· Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we¹re not sure what to do with.
That¹s how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below:
· Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn¹t touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I¹m pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4¹s work). Not that I¹m not interested in LE just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams.
· In response to Mary¹s email (attached): I agree that I¹m not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we¹re certainly planning to do), then I don¹t see why we¹d need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that¹s fine. I just don¹t see how that helps us get to our final work product.
· Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team¹s role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we do about that? I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I¹m just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier.
Thanks all!
From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> ] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net <mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net> > Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx!
Hi Everyone
First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so.
The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from.
==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever.
The second is one I¹d like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way.
==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one¹s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency². (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?)
My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket)
The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are.
==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead!
My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I¹d suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex.
==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category.
I²ll be having a look at that third category
My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not.
==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy
Happy to discuss
Holly
On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com> wrote:
Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion.
Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All of these comments contain a clear call: - No one¹s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency.
Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool?
Best and tx, Kathy
: > > Dear all, > > > > Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive > comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for > spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for > the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for > the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) > on PAGE 39. > > > > Apologies again for the inadvertent omission they have been added to > these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were > received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I¹ll update > the Sub Team wiki page accordingly. > > > > Thanks and cheers > > Mary > > > Mary Wong > > Senior Policy Director > > Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) > > Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 > > Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> > > > > > > From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org > <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> > on behalf of Mary Wong > <mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> > > Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 > To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com > <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com> >, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org > <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> " <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org > <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > > Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan > > > > Hello Todd and everyone, > > > > Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list! > > > Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I > apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of > comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting > the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am > very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes > WG members¹ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits > don¹t replace WG members¹ reading the comments themselves if possible. > At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as > thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our > efforts and a WG¹s/Sub Team¹s eagle eyes is the best arrangement. > > > > Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address > specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the > online template responses that do the same. The Word document is > therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or > the full WG, as appropriate). I¹ve taken a quick look through my > documents/collected comments and don¹t believe I have missed out any > others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word > documents I¹ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure. > > > > On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd¹s suggested approach > seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves > would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups > to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd¹s initial sweep, > and in doing so also note any comments that didn¹t address either so > that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or > considered by the full WG (if appropriate). > > > > BTW, Todd, maybe it¹s my machine or more likely that I haven¹t looked > through it in detail, but I¹m not seeing your comments/additions/edits > in the document you circulated . ? > > > > Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance > from staff in any way! > > > > Cheers > > Mary > > > > Mary Wong > > Senior Policy Director > > Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) > > Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 > > Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> > > > > > > > > From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org > <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> > on behalf of "Williams, Todd" > <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com> > > Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 > To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> " > <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > > Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan > > > > Am I the first to try this out? Cool. > > > > As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the > presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was > helpful to illustrate where we¹ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn > might help us decide what we¹ll need to do to get there. Specifically, > I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two > basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I¹d recommend > that we do the same. Here are the two that I¹d propose: > > > > 1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead > argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a > court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. > Presumably this group would present on: > > · How many of these comments were there? > > · Who did they come from? > > · What arguments did they make? > > · What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions > of the Initial Report beyond Annex E? > > 2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P > Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, > subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to > whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be > modified. Presumably this group would present on: > > · How many of these comments were there? > > · Who did they come from? > > · What arguments did they make? > > · What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address > the arguments raised in these comments? > > > > I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it > will help our sub-team ³divide and conquer² the work that we have before > us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I¹m not really sure how > we¹d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A > comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose > and/or publish absent a court order isn¹t arguing for changes to Annex > E; it¹s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether. > > > > With those two buckets in mind, I¹ve taken a first pass through the > comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated > (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to > make sure that they agree with how I¹ve tentatively divided the > comments? Once we¹re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the > next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some > members want to tackle the third ³unclear² category) to start reviewing > the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present > to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other > questions that anybody wants to suggest). > > > > Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of > information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was > compiled? I¹m just curious because I want to make sure that our > sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For > example, I know that Turner¹s comment (available > here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3 > VcnSR7.pdf > <http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnS > R7.pdf> ) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn¹t included in the > attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted > it. J So I want to make sure that there aren¹t other comments on Annex > E that we also ought to be reviewing. > > > > Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody. > > > Todd. > > > > Todd D. Williams > > Counsel > Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. > One CNN Center, 10 North > > Atlanta, Georgia 30303 > P: 404-827-2234 > > F: 404-827-1994 > > todd.williams@turner.com <mailto:todd.williams@turner.com> > > > > · Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E. > > 1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach > of material service terms such as Internet abuse) > > 2) Google > > 3) 1&1 Internet SE > > 4) Access Now > > 5) Endurance Int¹l Group > > 6) Jeff Wheelhouse > > 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service > terms such as net abuse) > > 8) Greg McMullen > > 9) Evelyn Aya Snow > > 10) Ralf Haring > > 11) Liam > > 12) Dr M Klinefelter > > 13) Sam > > 14) Dan M > > 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas > > 16) Not your business > > 17) Simon Kissane > > 18) TS > > 19) Cort Wee > > 20) Alex Xu > > 21) Kenneth Godwin > > 22) Shahed Ahmmed > > 23) Sebastian Broussier > > 24) Andrew Merenbach > > 25) Finn Ellis > > 26) Aaron Holmes > > 27) Michael Ekstrand > > 28) Homer > > 29) Donuts > > 30) Michael Ho > > 31) Key Systems > * Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how > to change the Disclosure Framework. > 1) BC > > 2) MPAA > > 3) ISPCP > > 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge > > 5) INTA > > 6) IACC > > 7) NCSG > > 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas > > 9) Cyberinvasion > > 10) Phil Crooker > > 11) Aaron Myers > > 12) Cui (ADNDRC) > > 13) Mike Fewings > > 14) Name withheld > > 15) Gary Miller > > 16) Byunghoon Choi > > 17) Reid Baker > > 18) Nick O¹Dell > > 19) Time Warner > > 20) RIAA & IFPI > > 21) IPC > > 22) Thomas Smoonlock > > 23) Vanda Scartezini > > 24) Tim Kramer > * Bucket Three: unclear. > 1) Sven Slootweg > > 2) Brendan Conniff > > 3) Marc Schauber > > 4) Aaron Mason > > 5) Kevin Szprychel > > 6) Christopher > > 7) James Ford > > 8) Shantanu Gupta > > 9) Christopher Smith > > 10) Private > > 11) Robert Lukitsh > > 12) Adam Miller > > 13) Charles > > 14) Aaron Dalton > > 15) Stephen Black Wolf > > 16) Ian McNeil > > 17) Adam Creighton > > 18) Arthur Zonnenberg > > 19) Anand S. > > 20) Lucas Stadler > > 21) Alan > > > _______________________________________________ > Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list > Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 > <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3>
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Hi Mary, Regarding Save Domain Privacy, saying it was a petition with 10,042 signatories is not accurate. The petition was submitted with over 10,000 comments attached, as shown here http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfCL0NdiQmaL.pd.... We should not diminish the voice of those who took the time to express their views and concerns by calling them merely signatories. Therefore, I believe we should state that over 10,000 comments were submitted with the Save Domain Privacy petition. Additionally, I have not had to chance to read through the new revisions from this weekend. I will do so tomorrow morning and provide any feedback as soon as possible. Best, Sara From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong Date: Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 4:07 PM To: Kathy Kleiman, "Williams, Todd", "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks everyone, that is a lot of work and a document that will clearly help advance the WG’s progress quite a bit! Kathy – can I confirm that the document you edited is Darcy’s update to Todd’s last version, and so does not include what was added/sent by Sara? I’m trying to keep all the drafts clear and ordered, and that’s what it looks like to me. If that’s the case, I will add Sara’s report to Kathy’s document (unless there are further changes between now and the WG call on Tuesday). I’ll then upload the consolidated draft document and have that ready for the WG at the Tuesday meeting. All – it seems to me that the question as to where the comments relating to “verifiable evidence” should fit is a question that you may wish to bring back to the WG on Tuesday, if there is still no agreement amongst yourselves by then. Finally – two minor suggested changes, both to do with numbers: first, I’d suggest that instead of saying 10,042 comments came with the Save Domain Privacy petition we should say that the petition had 10,042 signatories. Secondly, I suggest adding the word “approximately” to the 11,000 Respect Your Privacy comments. I hope this helps, and thank you all again. Following the WG call on Tuesday, please let me know how you would like to proceed and if there is a need for the Sub Team to get together for a call to discuss its final recommendations to the WG (due in about 2-3 weeks from this Tuesday, according to the current WG Work Plan). Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>> Date: Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 18:40 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi Todd and All, Nice job! I reviewed the entire document and attached is my crack at our summary. I think it includes everyone additions and edits to date (but please check!). I've lost track of who drafted what sections, but I think we are moving in the right direction. Some really good work has been done. I made one small change and two bigger ones and few general edits. The small change is removing the reference to contested and uncontested edits since I am not sure what an uncontested edit and whether commenters would have contested it if they knew what the proposed edit would be. (Unfortunately, since our "Reply Comment" period was removed by ICANN, we don't have this important reply time to review others edits and support or contest them.). I also added in two short paragraphs. The first one describes the Save Domains Privacy comments, the petition language, and the discussion now in place in our sub-team over the meaning of these comments. Perhaps others in the WG can help us shed light on the questions being raised in our sub-team. The second paragraph summarizes the 11,000 Respect Our Privacy comments. They told us that "No one's personal information should be revealed without a court order," and of course, we should reflect them in our summary. On my machine, my redlines appear in red, and the prior editor's redlines (for the paragraphs at the end starting "Finally, our sub-team reviewed and analyzed 21 miscellaneous comments...") appear in grey. I hope these redlines are clear for you too. Best and enjoy the rest of the weekend, Kathy : Kathy: Attached is my first crack at our portion of the summary (on the Bucket Two comments). Let me know if you have any suggested edits, additions, subtractions, etc. Also, I’ve copied the entire sub-team mailing list on this email, for two reasons: 1) So that there is a transparent public record of any back-and-forth red-lining of the document that we may do; and 2) So that Sara and Holly for Bucket One, and Darcy for our miscellaneous bucket, can see what I envision for our summary report to the WG. If you all want to add your summaries to this one to make it consistent in terms of formatting, etc., feel free. I had one thought Sara and Holly for Bucket One (which came to me as I was conceptually dividing our Bucket Two comments into general support, specific support, suggested changes by addition, suggested edits uncontested, suggested edits contested): it may be helpful for the WG if we divide our Bucket One comments into categories along a spectrum. As I envision it (in order along the spectrum): 1) No disclosure/publication ever. 2) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. I would put the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments here. 3) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP). E.g., I think the Google comment would go here. 4) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse. E.g., I think the ICA and EasyDNS comments would go here. For the WG’s sake, we may also want to distinguish between those Bucket One comments that couched their discussion of disclosure/publication in terms of what P/P Providers ought to be required to do (or not required to do) in response to external third-party disclosure requests such as from IP owners or LEA (e.g., the Google and Key Systems comments) vs. those Bucket One comments that simply said “no publication/disclosure absent a court order” without distinguishing b/w whether the impetus for the disclosure was an external third-party request or the P/P Provider’s own desire to disclose/publish (e.g., the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments). Thanks all! TW. From: Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:06 AM To: Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com><mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>; Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com><mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Whoops, I left out Jawala at the bottom, who should go in bucket two. Sorry. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:01 AM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I’ve added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Tx Mary! Kathy : Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone – this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I’ll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG’s preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though “attached” to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I’m afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team’s Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you’re working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can – with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG’s preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates. I’m happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I’m happy to do that (per Kathy’s suggestion on the call today) while I’m doing the current update anyway. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I’ve been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I’ve attached – I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that): · First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue. · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly’s point though that in this paragraph we should note that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google’s, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, and didn’t accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice. · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that “verifiable evidence of wrongdoing” is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a “higher standard.” From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary. · Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we’re not sure what to do with. That’s how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below: · Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn’t touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I’m pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4’s work). Not that I’m not interested in LE – just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams. · In response to Mary’s email (attached): I agree that I’m not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we’re certainly planning to do), then I don’t see why we’d need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that’s fine. I just don’t see how that helps us get to our final work product. · Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team’s role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that – OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we do about that? – I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I’m just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier. Thanks all! From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx! Hi Everyone First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so. The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from. ==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever. The second is one I’d like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way. ==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency”. (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?) My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket) The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are. ==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead! My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I’d suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex. ==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category. I”ll be having a look at that third category My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not. ==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy Happy to discuss Holly On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:Kathy@kathykleiman.com>> wrote: Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion. Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All of these comments contain a clear call: - No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency. Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool? Best and tx, Kathy : Dear all, Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39. Apologies again for the inadvertent omission – they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I’ll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Hello Todd and everyone, Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list! Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members’ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don’t replace WG members’ reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG’s/Sub Team’s eagle eyes is the best arrangement. Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I’ve taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don’t believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I’ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure. On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd’s suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd’s initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn’t address either – so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate). BTW, Todd, maybe it’s my machine or more likely that I haven’t looked through it in detail, but I’m not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated …. ? Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way! Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Am I the first to try this out? Cool. As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was helpful to illustrate where we’ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn might help us decide what we’ll need to do to get there. Specifically, I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I’d recommend that we do the same. Here are the two that I’d propose: 1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions of the Initial Report beyond Annex E? 2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address the arguments raised in these comments? I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it will help our sub-team “divide and conquer” the work that we have before us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I’m not really sure how we’d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose and/or publish absent a court order isn’t arguing for changes to Annex E; it’s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether. With those two buckets in mind, I’ve taken a first pass through the comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to make sure that they agree with how I’ve tentatively divided the comments? Once we’re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some members want to tackle the third “unclear” category) to start reviewing the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other questions that anybody wants to suggest). Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was compiled? I’m just curious because I want to make sure that our sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For example, I know that Turner’s comment (available here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnSR7.pd...) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn’t included in the attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted it. ☺ So I want to make sure that there aren’t other comments on Annex E that we also ought to be reviewing. Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody. Todd. Todd D. Williams Counsel Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. One CNN Center, 10 North Atlanta, Georgia 30303 P: 404-827-2234 F: 404-827-1994 todd.williams@turner.com<mailto:todd.williams@turner.com> · Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E. 1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach of material service terms such as Internet abuse) 2) Google 3) 1&1 Internet SE 4) Access Now 5) Endurance Int’l Group 6) Jeff Wheelhouse 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service terms such as net abuse) 8) Greg McMullen 9) Evelyn Aya Snow 10) Ralf Haring 11) Liam 12) Dr M Klinefelter 13) Sam 14) Dan M 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas 16) Not your business 17) Simon Kissane 18) TS 19) Cort Wee 20) Alex Xu 21) Kenneth Godwin 22) Shahed Ahmmed 23) Sebastian Broussier 24) Andrew Merenbach 25) Finn Ellis 26) Aaron Holmes 27) Michael Ekstrand 28) Homer 29) Donuts 30) Michael Ho 31) Key Systems * Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework. 1) BC 2) MPAA 3) ISPCP 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge 5) INTA 6) IACC 7) NCSG 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas 9) Cyberinvasion 10) Phil Crooker 11) Aaron Myers 12) Cui (ADNDRC) 13) Mike Fewings 14) Name withheld 15) Gary Miller 16) Byunghoon Choi 17) Reid Baker 18) Nick O’Dell 19) Time Warner 20) RIAA & IFPI 21) IPC 22) Thomas Smoonlock 23) Vanda Scartezini 24) Tim Kramer * Bucket Three: unclear. 1) Sven Slootweg 2) Brendan Conniff 3) Marc Schauber 4) Aaron Mason 5) Kevin Szprychel 6) Christopher 7) James Ford 8) Shantanu Gupta 9) Christopher Smith 10) Private 11) Robert Lukitsh 12) Adam Miller 13) Charles 14) Aaron Dalton 15) Stephen Black Wolf 16) Ian McNeil 17) Adam Creighton 18) Arthur Zonnenberg 19) Anand S. 20) Lucas Stadler 21) Alan _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3
Hi Sara apologies, I definitely did not mean to diminish anyone¹s voice; that would be totally inappropriate! Perhaps I should have been clearer, but my understanding is that while 10.042 people signed the petition, a fairly large number amongst those (though not all) also added comments that were sent in as well by the organizers. Therefore I don¹t know that there were 10,042 additional comments in all. Please understand that I am simply trying to be accurate in our Final Report would saying 10,042 signatories that also included [x] number of additional comments be better? That¹s assuming we know what [x] is, of course; if not, we could say something like ³many of the signatories also submitted individual comments². I hope this clarifies where staff is coming from. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org From: Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com> Date: Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 22:31 To: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org>, Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>, "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Cc: Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Hi Mary,
Regarding Save Domain Privacy, saying it was a petition with 10,042 signatories is not accurate. The petition was submitted with over 10,000 comments attached, as shown here http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfCL0NdiQmaL.pd.... We should not diminish the voice of those who took the time to express their views and concerns by calling them merely signatories. Therefore, I believe we should state that over 10,000 comments were submitted with the Save Domain Privacy petition.
Additionally, I have not had to chance to read through the new revisions from this weekend. I will do so tomorrow morning and provide any feedback as soon as possible.
Best,
Sara
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Mary Wong Date: Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 4:07 PM To: Kathy Kleiman, "Williams, Todd", "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Thanks everyone, that is a lot of work and a document that will clearly help advance the WG¹s progress quite a bit!
Kathy can I confirm that the document you edited is Darcy¹s update to Todd¹s last version, and so does not include what was added/sent by Sara? I¹m trying to keep all the drafts clear and ordered, and that¹s what it looks like to me. If that¹s the case, I will add Sara¹s report to Kathy¹s document (unless there are further changes between now and the WG call on Tuesday). I¹ll then upload the consolidated draft document and have that ready for the WG at the Tuesday meeting.
All it seems to me that the question as to where the comments relating to ³verifiable evidence² should fit is a question that you may wish to bring back to the WG on Tuesday, if there is still no agreement amongst yourselves by then.
Finally two minor suggested changes, both to do with numbers: first, I¹d suggest that instead of saying 10,042 comments came with the Save Domain Privacy petition we should say that the petition had 10,042 signatories. Secondly, I suggest adding the word ³approximately² to the 11,000 Respect Your Privacy comments.
I hope this helps, and thank you all again. Following the WG call on Tuesday, please let me know how you would like to proceed and if there is a need for the Sub Team to get together for a call to discuss its final recommendations to the WG (due in about 2-3 weeks from this Tuesday, according to the current WG Work Plan).
Thanks and cheers Mary
Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com> Date: Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 18:40 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Hi Todd and All, Nice job! I reviewed the entire document and attached is my crack at our summary. I think it includes everyone additions and edits to date (but please check!).
I've lost track of who drafted what sections, but I think we are moving in the right direction. Some really good work has been done. I made one small change and two bigger ones and few general edits. The small change is removing the reference to contested and uncontested edits since I am not sure what an uncontested edit and whether commenters would have contested it if they knew what the proposed edit would be. (Unfortunately, since our "Reply Comment" period was removed by ICANN, we don't have this important reply time to review others edits and support or contest them.).
I also added in two short paragraphs. The first one describes the Save Domains Privacy comments, the petition language, and the discussion now in place in our sub-team over the meaning of these comments. Perhaps others in the WG can help us shed light on the questions being raised in our sub-team.
The second paragraph summarizes the 11,000 Respect Our Privacy comments. They told us that "No one's personal information should be revealed without a court order," and of course, we should reflect them in our summary.
On my machine, my redlines appear in red, and the prior editor's redlines (for the paragraphs at the end starting "Finally, our sub-team reviewed and analyzed 21 miscellaneous comments...") appear in grey. I hope these redlines are clear for you too.
Best and enjoy the rest of the weekend, Kathy
:
Kathy:
Attached is my first crack at our portion of the summary (on the Bucket Two comments). Let me know if you have any suggested edits, additions, subtractions, etc.
Also, I¹ve copied the entire sub-team mailing list on this email, for two reasons:
1) So that there is a transparent public record of any back-and-forth red-lining of the document that we may do; and
2) So that Sara and Holly for Bucket One, and Darcy for our miscellaneous bucket, can see what I envision for our summary report to the WG. If you all want to add your summaries to this one to make it consistent in terms of formatting, etc., feel free.
I had one thought Sara and Holly for Bucket One (which came to me as I was conceptually dividing our Bucket Two comments into general support, specific support, suggested changes by addition, suggested edits uncontested, suggested edits contested): it may be helpful for the WG if we divide our Bucket One comments into categories along a spectrum. As I envision it (in order along the spectrum):
1) No disclosure/publication ever.
2) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. I would put the 10,000+ ³Respect our Privacy² comments here.
3) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP). E.g., I think the Google comment would go here.
4) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse. E.g., I think the ICA and EasyDNS comments would go here.
For the WG¹s sake, we may also want to distinguish between those Bucket One comments that couched their discussion of disclosure/publication in terms of what P/P Providers ought to be required to do (or not required to do) in response to external third-party disclosure requests such as from IP owners or LEA (e.g., the Google and Key Systems comments) vs. those Bucket One comments that simply said ³no publication/disclosure absent a court order² without distinguishing b/w whether the impetus for the disclosure was an external third-party request or the P/P Provider¹s own desire to disclose/publish (e.g., the 10,000+ ³Respect our Privacy² comments).
Thanks all!
TW.
From: Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:06 AM To: Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com> <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com> ; Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com> <mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com> ; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Whoops, I left out Jawala at the bottom, who should go in bucket two. Sorry.
From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:01 AM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I¹ve added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks.
From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Tx Mary! Kathy :
Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I¹ll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG¹s preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though ³attached² to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I¹m afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team¹s Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you¹re working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG¹s preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates.
I¹m happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I¹m happy to do that (per Kathy¹s suggestion on the call today) while I¹m doing the current update anyway.
Thanks and cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>
on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com> > Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com <mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com> , Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net <mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net> > Cc: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> " <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I¹ve been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I¹ve attached I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that):
· First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG¹s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue.
· Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG¹s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the ³Respect our Privacy² submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly¹s point though that in this paragraph we should note that the ³Respect our Privacy² submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google¹s, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, and didn¹t accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice.
· Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG¹s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that ³verifiable evidence of wrongdoing² is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a ³higher standard.² From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary.
· Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we¹re not sure what to do with.
That¹s how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below:
· Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn¹t touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I¹m pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4¹s work). Not that I¹m not interested in LE just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams.
· In response to Mary¹s email (attached): I agree that I¹m not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we¹re certainly planning to do), then I don¹t see why we¹d need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that¹s fine. I just don¹t see how that helps us get to our final work product.
· Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team¹s role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we do about that? I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I¹m just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier.
Thanks all!
From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> ] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net <mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net> > Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx!
Hi Everyone
First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so.
The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from.
==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever.
The second is one I¹d like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way.
==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one¹s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency². (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?)
My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket)
The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are.
==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead!
My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I¹d suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex.
==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category.
I²ll be having a look at that third category
My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not.
==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy
Happy to discuss
Holly
On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com> wrote:
> > Hi Mary and All, > Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our > discussion. > > Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been > included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments > we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All > of these comments contain a clear call: > - No one¹s personal information should be revealed without a court > order, > regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law > enforcement agency. > > Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of > commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which > would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool? > > Best and tx, > Kathy > > : > > Dear all, > > > > Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive > comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for > spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for > the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for > the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) > on PAGE 39. > > > > Apologies again for the inadvertent omission they have been added to > these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were > received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I¹ll update > the Sub Team wiki page accordingly. > > > > Thanks and cheers > > Mary > > > Mary Wong > > Senior Policy Director > > Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) > > Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 > > Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> > > > > > > From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org > <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> > on behalf of Mary Wong > <mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> > > Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 > To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com > <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com> >, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org > <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> " <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org > <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > > Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan > > > > Hello Todd and everyone, > > > > Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list! > > > Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I > apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of > comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting > the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am > very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes > WG members¹ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits > don¹t replace WG members¹ reading the comments themselves if possible. > At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as > thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our > efforts and a WG¹s/Sub Team¹s eagle eyes is the best arrangement. > > > > Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address > specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the > online template responses that do the same. The Word document is > therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or > the full WG, as appropriate). I¹ve taken a quick look through my > documents/collected comments and don¹t believe I have missed out any > others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word > documents I¹ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure. > > > > On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd¹s suggested approach > seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves > would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups > to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd¹s initial sweep, > and in doing so also note any comments that didn¹t address either so > that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or > considered by the full WG (if appropriate). > > > > BTW, Todd, maybe it¹s my machine or more likely that I haven¹t looked > through it in detail, but I¹m not seeing your comments/additions/edits > in the document you circulated . ? > > > > Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance > from staff in any way! > > > > Cheers > > Mary > > > > Mary Wong > > Senior Policy Director > > Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) > > Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 > > Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> > > > > > > > > From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org > <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> > on behalf of "Williams, Todd" > <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com> > > Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 > To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> " > <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > > Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan > > > > Am I the first to try this out? Cool. > > > > As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the > presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was > helpful to illustrate where we¹ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn > might help us decide what we¹ll need to do to get there. Specifically, > I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two > basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I¹d recommend > that we do the same. Here are the two that I¹d propose: > > > > 1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead > argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a > court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. > Presumably this group would present on: > > · How many of these comments were there? > > · Who did they come from? > > · What arguments did they make? > > · What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions > of the Initial Report beyond Annex E? > > 2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P > Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, > subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to > whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be > modified. Presumably this group would present on: > > · How many of these comments were there? > > · Who did they come from? > > · What arguments did they make? > > · What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address > the arguments raised in these comments? > > > > I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it > will help our sub-team ³divide and conquer² the work that we have before > us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I¹m not really sure how > we¹d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A > comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose > and/or publish absent a court order isn¹t arguing for changes to Annex > E; it¹s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether. > > > > With those two buckets in mind, I¹ve taken a first pass through the > comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated > (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to > make sure that they agree with how I¹ve tentatively divided the > comments? Once we¹re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the > next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some > members want to tackle the third ³unclear² category) to start reviewing > the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present > to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other > questions that anybody wants to suggest). > > > > Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of > information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was > compiled? I¹m just curious because I want to make sure that our > sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For > example, I know that Turner¹s comment (available > here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3 > VcnSR7.pdf > <http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnS > R7.pdf> ) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn¹t included in the > attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted > it. J So I want to make sure that there aren¹t other comments on Annex > E that we also ought to be reviewing. > > > > Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody. > > > Todd. > > > > Todd D. Williams > > Counsel > Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. > One CNN Center, 10 North > > Atlanta, Georgia 30303 > P: 404-827-2234 > > F: 404-827-1994 > > todd.williams@turner.com <mailto:todd.williams@turner.com> > > > > · Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E. > > 1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach > of material service terms such as Internet abuse) > > 2) Google > > 3) 1&1 Internet SE > > 4) Access Now > > 5) Endurance Int¹l Group > > 6) Jeff Wheelhouse > > 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service > terms such as net abuse) > > 8) Greg McMullen > > 9) Evelyn Aya Snow > > 10) Ralf Haring > > 11) Liam > > 12) Dr M Klinefelter > > 13) Sam > > 14) Dan M > > 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas > > 16) Not your business > > 17) Simon Kissane > > 18) TS > > 19) Cort Wee > > 20) Alex Xu > > 21) Kenneth Godwin > > 22) Shahed Ahmmed > > 23) Sebastian Broussier > > 24) Andrew Merenbach > > 25) Finn Ellis > > 26) Aaron Holmes > > 27) Michael Ekstrand > > 28) Homer > > 29) Donuts > > 30) Michael Ho > > 31) Key Systems > * Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how > to change the Disclosure Framework. > 1) BC > > 2) MPAA > > 3) ISPCP > > 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge > > 5) INTA > > 6) IACC > > 7) NCSG > > 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas > > 9) Cyberinvasion > > 10) Phil Crooker > > 11) Aaron Myers > > 12) Cui (ADNDRC) > > 13) Mike Fewings > > 14) Name withheld > > 15) Gary Miller > > 16) Byunghoon Choi > > 17) Reid Baker > > 18) Nick O¹Dell > > 19) Time Warner > > 20) RIAA & IFPI > > 21) IPC > > 22) Thomas Smoonlock > > 23) Vanda Scartezini > > 24) Tim Kramer > * Bucket Three: unclear. > 1) Sven Slootweg > > 2) Brendan Conniff > > 3) Marc Schauber > > 4) Aaron Mason > > 5) Kevin Szprychel > > 6) Christopher > > 7) James Ford > > 8) Shantanu Gupta > > 9) Christopher Smith > > 10) Private > > 11) Robert Lukitsh > > 12) Adam Miller > > 13) Charles > > 14) Aaron Dalton > > 15) Stephen Black Wolf > > 16) Ian McNeil > > 17) Adam Creighton > > 18) Arthur Zonnenberg > > 19) Anand S. > > 20) Lucas Stadler > > 21) Alan > > > _______________________________________________ > Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list > Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 > <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3> > > _______________________________________________ > Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list > Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 > <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3>
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Mary, That is helpful. Thank you for clarifying. We should ask for the exact number of individual comments, I’m pretty sure this is information SDP can provide. Best, Sara From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong Date: Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 7:41 PM To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi Sara – apologies, I definitely did not mean to diminish anyone’s voice; that would be totally inappropriate! Perhaps I should have been clearer, but my understanding is that while 10.042 people signed the petition, a fairly large number amongst those (though not all) also added comments that were sent in as well by the organizers. Therefore I don’t know that there were 10,042 additional comments in all. Please understand that I am simply trying to be accurate in our Final Report – would saying 10,042 signatories that also included [x] number of additional comments be better? That’s assuming we know what [x] is, of course; if not, we could say something like “many of the signatories also submitted individual comments”. I hope this clarifies where staff is coming from. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com<mailto:sbockey@godaddy.com>> Date: Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 22:31 To: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>>, Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Cc: Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com<mailto:sbockey@godaddy.com>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi Mary, Regarding Save Domain Privacy, saying it was a petition with 10,042 signatories is not accurate. The petition was submitted with over 10,000 comments attached, as shown here http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfCL0NdiQmaL.pd.... We should not diminish the voice of those who took the time to express their views and concerns by calling them merely signatories. Therefore, I believe we should state that over 10,000 comments were submitted with the Save Domain Privacy petition. Additionally, I have not had to chance to read through the new revisions from this weekend. I will do so tomorrow morning and provide any feedback as soon as possible. Best, Sara From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong Date: Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 4:07 PM To: Kathy Kleiman, "Williams, Todd", "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks everyone, that is a lot of work and a document that will clearly help advance the WG’s progress quite a bit! Kathy – can I confirm that the document you edited is Darcy’s update to Todd’s last version, and so does not include what was added/sent by Sara? I’m trying to keep all the drafts clear and ordered, and that’s what it looks like to me. If that’s the case, I will add Sara’s report to Kathy’s document (unless there are further changes between now and the WG call on Tuesday). I’ll then upload the consolidated draft document and have that ready for the WG at the Tuesday meeting. All – it seems to me that the question as to where the comments relating to “verifiable evidence” should fit is a question that you may wish to bring back to the WG on Tuesday, if there is still no agreement amongst yourselves by then. Finally – two minor suggested changes, both to do with numbers: first, I’d suggest that instead of saying 10,042 comments came with the Save Domain Privacy petition we should say that the petition had 10,042 signatories. Secondly, I suggest adding the word “approximately” to the 11,000 Respect Your Privacy comments. I hope this helps, and thank you all again. Following the WG call on Tuesday, please let me know how you would like to proceed and if there is a need for the Sub Team to get together for a call to discuss its final recommendations to the WG (due in about 2-3 weeks from this Tuesday, according to the current WG Work Plan). Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>> Date: Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 18:40 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi Todd and All, Nice job! I reviewed the entire document and attached is my crack at our summary. I think it includes everyone additions and edits to date (but please check!). I've lost track of who drafted what sections, but I think we are moving in the right direction. Some really good work has been done. I made one small change and two bigger ones and few general edits. The small change is removing the reference to contested and uncontested edits since I am not sure what an uncontested edit and whether commenters would have contested it if they knew what the proposed edit would be. (Unfortunately, since our "Reply Comment" period was removed by ICANN, we don't have this important reply time to review others edits and support or contest them.). I also added in two short paragraphs. The first one describes the Save Domains Privacy comments, the petition language, and the discussion now in place in our sub-team over the meaning of these comments. Perhaps others in the WG can help us shed light on the questions being raised in our sub-team. The second paragraph summarizes the 11,000 Respect Our Privacy comments. They told us that "No one's personal information should be revealed without a court order," and of course, we should reflect them in our summary. On my machine, my redlines appear in red, and the prior editor's redlines (for the paragraphs at the end starting "Finally, our sub-team reviewed and analyzed 21 miscellaneous comments...") appear in grey. I hope these redlines are clear for you too. Best and enjoy the rest of the weekend, Kathy : Kathy: Attached is my first crack at our portion of the summary (on the Bucket Two comments). Let me know if you have any suggested edits, additions, subtractions, etc. Also, I’ve copied the entire sub-team mailing list on this email, for two reasons: 1) So that there is a transparent public record of any back-and-forth red-lining of the document that we may do; and 2) So that Sara and Holly for Bucket One, and Darcy for our miscellaneous bucket, can see what I envision for our summary report to the WG. If you all want to add your summaries to this one to make it consistent in terms of formatting, etc., feel free. I had one thought Sara and Holly for Bucket One (which came to me as I was conceptually dividing our Bucket Two comments into general support, specific support, suggested changes by addition, suggested edits uncontested, suggested edits contested): it may be helpful for the WG if we divide our Bucket One comments into categories along a spectrum. As I envision it (in order along the spectrum): 1) No disclosure/publication ever. 2) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. I would put the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments here. 3) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP). E.g., I think the Google comment would go here. 4) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse. E.g., I think the ICA and EasyDNS comments would go here. For the WG’s sake, we may also want to distinguish between those Bucket One comments that couched their discussion of disclosure/publication in terms of what P/P Providers ought to be required to do (or not required to do) in response to external third-party disclosure requests such as from IP owners or LEA (e.g., the Google and Key Systems comments) vs. those Bucket One comments that simply said “no publication/disclosure absent a court order” without distinguishing b/w whether the impetus for the disclosure was an external third-party request or the P/P Provider’s own desire to disclose/publish (e.g., the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments). Thanks all! TW. From: Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:06 AM To: Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com><mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>; Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com><mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Whoops, I left out Jawala at the bottom, who should go in bucket two. Sorry. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:01 AM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I’ve added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Tx Mary! Kathy : Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone – this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I’ll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG’s preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though “attached” to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I’m afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team’s Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you’re working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can – with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG’s preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates. I’m happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I’m happy to do that (per Kathy’s suggestion on the call today) while I’m doing the current update anyway. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I’ve been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I’ve attached – I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that): · First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue. · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly’s point though that in this paragraph we should note that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google’s, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, and didn’t accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice. · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that “verifiable evidence of wrongdoing” is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a “higher standard.” From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary. · Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we’re not sure what to do with. That’s how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below: · Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn’t touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I’m pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4’s work). Not that I’m not interested in LE – just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams. · In response to Mary’s email (attached): I agree that I’m not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we’re certainly planning to do), then I don’t see why we’d need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that’s fine. I just don’t see how that helps us get to our final work product. · Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team’s role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that – OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we do about that? – I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I’m just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier. Thanks all! From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx! Hi Everyone First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so. The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from. ==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever. The second is one I’d like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way. ==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency”. (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?) My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket) The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are. ==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead! My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I’d suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex. ==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category. I”ll be having a look at that third category My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not. ==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy Happy to discuss Holly On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:Kathy@kathykleiman.com>> wrote: Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion. Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All of these comments contain a clear call: - No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency. Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool? Best and tx, Kathy : Dear all, Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39. Apologies again for the inadvertent omission – they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I’ll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Hello Todd and everyone, Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list! Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members’ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don’t replace WG members’ reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG’s/Sub Team’s eagle eyes is the best arrangement. Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I’ve taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don’t believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I’ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure. On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd’s suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd’s initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn’t address either – so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate). BTW, Todd, maybe it’s my machine or more likely that I haven’t looked through it in detail, but I’m not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated …. ? Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way! Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Am I the first to try this out? Cool. As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was helpful to illustrate where we’ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn might help us decide what we’ll need to do to get there. Specifically, I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I’d recommend that we do the same. Here are the two that I’d propose: 1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions of the Initial Report beyond Annex E? 2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address the arguments raised in these comments? I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it will help our sub-team “divide and conquer” the work that we have before us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I’m not really sure how we’d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose and/or publish absent a court order isn’t arguing for changes to Annex E; it’s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether. With those two buckets in mind, I’ve taken a first pass through the comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to make sure that they agree with how I’ve tentatively divided the comments? Once we’re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some members want to tackle the third “unclear” category) to start reviewing the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other questions that anybody wants to suggest). Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was compiled? I’m just curious because I want to make sure that our sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For example, I know that Turner’s comment (available here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnSR7.pd...) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn’t included in the attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted it. ☺ So I want to make sure that there aren’t other comments on Annex E that we also ought to be reviewing. Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody. Todd. Todd D. Williams Counsel Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. One CNN Center, 10 North Atlanta, Georgia 30303 P: 404-827-2234 F: 404-827-1994 todd.williams@turner.com<mailto:todd.williams@turner.com> · Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E. 1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach of material service terms such as Internet abuse) 2) Google 3) 1&1 Internet SE 4) Access Now 5) Endurance Int’l Group 6) Jeff Wheelhouse 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service terms such as net abuse) 8) Greg McMullen 9) Evelyn Aya Snow 10) Ralf Haring 11) Liam 12) Dr M Klinefelter 13) Sam 14) Dan M 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas 16) Not your business 17) Simon Kissane 18) TS 19) Cort Wee 20) Alex Xu 21) Kenneth Godwin 22) Shahed Ahmmed 23) Sebastian Broussier 24) Andrew Merenbach 25) Finn Ellis 26) Aaron Holmes 27) Michael Ekstrand 28) Homer 29) Donuts 30) Michael Ho 31) Key Systems * Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework. 1) BC 2) MPAA 3) ISPCP 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge 5) INTA 6) IACC 7) NCSG 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas 9) Cyberinvasion 10) Phil Crooker 11) Aaron Myers 12) Cui (ADNDRC) 13) Mike Fewings 14) Name withheld 15) Gary Miller 16) Byunghoon Choi 17) Reid Baker 18) Nick O’Dell 19) Time Warner 20) RIAA & IFPI 21) IPC 22) Thomas Smoonlock 23) Vanda Scartezini 24) Tim Kramer * Bucket Three: unclear. 1) Sven Slootweg 2) Brendan Conniff 3) Marc Schauber 4) Aaron Mason 5) Kevin Szprychel 6) Christopher 7) James Ford 8) Shantanu Gupta 9) Christopher Smith 10) Private 11) Robert Lukitsh 12) Adam Miller 13) Charles 14) Aaron Dalton 15) Stephen Black Wolf 16) Ian McNeil 17) Adam Creighton 18) Arthur Zonnenberg 19) Anand S. 20) Lucas Stadler 21) Alan _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3
Thanks Kathy. My thoughts on the attached: * My only point on the "contested vs. uncontested" language was to distinguish those suggested changes to Annex E for which we received comments on both sides of a question vs. those suggested changes for which we did not. Mainly it was just to distinguish the final two paragraphs conceptually. But your changes serve that same purpose well. * I don't understand why we would include "while seeking significantly higher standards for disclosure and options to disclosure" in the third paragraph. We get to what changes the various comments suggested (including which comments asked for higher disclosure standards, and which asked for lower) later in the document. That third paragraph is just noting which comments supported certain sections of Annex E. Plus I'm not sure that all of the comments mentioned in that third paragraph did in fact seek "significantly higher standards for disclosure." * Isn't the analysis of the 11,000 comments from Respect our Privacy contained in Sara and Holly's section (see attached)? Why would we reference them twice? * Darcy's analysis of the "miscellaneous" bucket looks great. Many thanks Darcy - in many ways I think you took the most difficult part, because sometimes it's hard to make sense of how exactly those comments were relevant! Finally: for the reasons I've already outlined in the attached email, I don't understand why we would say that the process outlined in Annex E "is not currently a verifiable evidence standard." As I mentioned before, the "evidence" that Annex E requires, as outlined in Sections II(A), (B), and (C), is extensive. So I don't see any argument why Annex E wouldn't meet the "evidence" part of "verifiable evidence." So I think what we're really trying to interpret is "verifiable." And Kathy in the attached has offered the interpretation that "verifiable" means "a court order in which the court 'verifies' the abuse or infringement alleged with a specific judicial finding." But if that was the correct interpretation, wouldn't the word be "verified" instead of "verifiable"? If a court has issued an order, then it has already done the verifying. Rather, I think the basic plain meaning of "verifiable" - and hence the meaning that we should assume the 10,000+ supporters signed on to - is simply "able to be checked or proved." So it seems much simpler to read "verifiable" to support the portions of Sections III(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E that give P/P Providers the ability to verify the evidence submitted by a Requester by notifying the P/P Customer of the complaint, reviewing the P/P Customer's response, and then responding to the Requester with either disclosure or its reasons for refusing to disclose - which reasons may come from either the Customer under Section III(C)(ii), or from the P/P Provider's own investigation under Section III(C)(iii). In other words, the most plausible reading of "verifiable" is that it simply means that it is not enough for the Requester to provide any evidence and then disclosure automatically follows. Rather, the evidence must be capable of being verified. Which is what Section III provides. From: Mary Wong [mailto:mary.wong@icann.org] Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 7:08 PM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>; Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks everyone, that is a lot of work and a document that will clearly help advance the WG's progress quite a bit! Kathy - can I confirm that the document you edited is Darcy's update to Todd's last version, and so does not include what was added/sent by Sara? I'm trying to keep all the drafts clear and ordered, and that's what it looks like to me. If that's the case, I will add Sara's report to Kathy's document (unless there are further changes between now and the WG call on Tuesday). I'll then upload the consolidated draft document and have that ready for the WG at the Tuesday meeting. All - it seems to me that the question as to where the comments relating to "verifiable evidence" should fit is a question that you may wish to bring back to the WG on Tuesday, if there is still no agreement amongst yourselves by then. Finally - two minor suggested changes, both to do with numbers: first, I'd suggest that instead of saying 10,042 comments came with the Save Domain Privacy petition we should say that the petition had 10,042 signatories. Secondly, I suggest adding the word "approximately" to the 11,000 Respect Your Privacy comments. I hope this helps, and thank you all again. Following the WG call on Tuesday, please let me know how you would like to proceed and if there is a need for the Sub Team to get together for a call to discuss its final recommendations to the WG (due in about 2-3 weeks from this Tuesday, according to the current WG Work Plan). Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>> Date: Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 18:40 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi Todd and All, Nice job! I reviewed the entire document and attached is my crack at our summary. I think it includes everyone additions and edits to date (but please check!). I've lost track of who drafted what sections, but I think we are moving in the right direction. Some really good work has been done. I made one small change and two bigger ones and few general edits. The small change is removing the reference to contested and uncontested edits since I am not sure what an uncontested edit and whether commenters would have contested it if they knew what the proposed edit would be. (Unfortunately, since our "Reply Comment" period was removed by ICANN, we don't have this important reply time to review others edits and support or contest them.). I also added in two short paragraphs. The first one describes the Save Domains Privacy comments, the petition language, and the discussion now in place in our sub-team over the meaning of these comments. Perhaps others in the WG can help us shed light on the questions being raised in our sub-team. The second paragraph summarizes the 11,000 Respect Our Privacy comments. They told us that "No one's personal information should be revealed without a court order," and of course, we should reflect them in our summary. On my machine, my redlines appear in red, and the prior editor's redlines (for the paragraphs at the end starting "Finally, our sub-team reviewed and analyzed 21 miscellaneous comments...") appear in grey. I hope these redlines are clear for you too. Best and enjoy the rest of the weekend, Kathy : Kathy: Attached is my first crack at our portion of the summary (on the Bucket Two comments). Let me know if you have any suggested edits, additions, subtractions, etc. Also, I've copied the entire sub-team mailing list on this email, for two reasons: 1) So that there is a transparent public record of any back-and-forth red-lining of the document that we may do; and 2) So that Sara and Holly for Bucket One, and Darcy for our miscellaneous bucket, can see what I envision for our summary report to the WG. If you all want to add your summaries to this one to make it consistent in terms of formatting, etc., feel free. I had one thought Sara and Holly for Bucket One (which came to me as I was conceptually dividing our Bucket Two comments into general support, specific support, suggested changes by addition, suggested edits uncontested, suggested edits contested): it may be helpful for the WG if we divide our Bucket One comments into categories along a spectrum. As I envision it (in order along the spectrum): 1) No disclosure/publication ever. 2) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. I would put the 10,000+ "Respect our Privacy" comments here. 3) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP). E.g., I think the Google comment would go here. 4) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse. E.g., I think the ICA and EasyDNS comments would go here. For the WG's sake, we may also want to distinguish between those Bucket One comments that couched their discussion of disclosure/publication in terms of what P/P Providers ought to be required to do (or not required to do) in response to external third-party disclosure requests such as from IP owners or LEA (e.g., the Google and Key Systems comments) vs. those Bucket One comments that simply said "no publication/disclosure absent a court order" without distinguishing b/w whether the impetus for the disclosure was an external third-party request or the P/P Provider's own desire to disclose/publish (e.g., the 10,000+ "Respect our Privacy" comments). Thanks all! TW. From: Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:06 AM To: Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com><mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>; Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com><mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Whoops, I left out Jawala at the bottom, who should go in bucket two. Sorry. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:01 AM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I've added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Tx Mary! Kathy : Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone - this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I'll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG's preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though "attached" to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I'm afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team's Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you're working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can - with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG's preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates. I'm happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I'm happy to do that (per Kathy's suggestion on the call today) while I'm doing the current update anyway. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I've been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I've attached - I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that): * First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG's proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue. * Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG's proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the "Respect our Privacy" submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly's point though that in this paragraph we should note that the "Respect our Privacy" submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google's, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, and didn't accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice. * Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG's proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a "higher standard." From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary. * Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we're not sure what to do with. That's how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below: * Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn't touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I'm pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4's work). Not that I'm not interested in LE - just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams. * In response to Mary's email (attached): I agree that I'm not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we're certainly planning to do), then I don't see why we'd need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that's fine. I just don't see how that helps us get to our final work product. * Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team's role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that - OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we do about that? - I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I'm just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier. Thanks all! From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx! Hi Everyone First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so. The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from. ==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever. The second is one I'd like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way. ==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one's personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency". (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?) My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket) The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are. ==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead! My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I'd suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex. ==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category. I"ll be having a look at that third category My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not. ==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy Happy to discuss Holly On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:Kathy@kathykleiman.com>> wrote: Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion. Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All of these comments contain a clear call: - No one's personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency. Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool? Best and tx, Kathy : Dear all, Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39. Apologies again for the inadvertent omission - they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I'll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Hello Todd and everyone, Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list! Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members' questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don't replace WG members' reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG's/Sub Team's eagle eyes is the best arrangement. Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I've taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don't believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I've compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure. On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd's suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd's initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn't address either - so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate). BTW, Todd, maybe it's my machine or more likely that I haven't looked through it in detail, but I'm not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated .... ? Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way! Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Am I the first to try this out? Cool. As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was helpful to illustrate where we'll need to be by 8-11, which in turn might help us decide what we'll need to do to get there. Specifically, I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I'd recommend that we do the same. Here are the two that I'd propose: 1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. Presumably this group would present on: * How many of these comments were there? * Who did they come from? * What arguments did they make? * What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions of the Initial Report beyond Annex E? 2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. Presumably this group would present on: * How many of these comments were there? * Who did they come from? * What arguments did they make? * What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address the arguments raised in these comments? I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it will help our sub-team "divide and conquer" the work that we have before us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I'm not really sure how we'd otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose and/or publish absent a court order isn't arguing for changes to Annex E; it's arguing to scrap Annex E altogether. With those two buckets in mind, I've taken a first pass through the comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to make sure that they agree with how I've tentatively divided the comments? Once we're comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some members want to tackle the third "unclear" category) to start reviewing the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other questions that anybody wants to suggest). Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was compiled? I'm just curious because I want to make sure that our sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For example, I know that Turner's comment (available here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnSR7.pd...) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn't included in the attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted it. :) So I want to make sure that there aren't other comments on Annex E that we also ought to be reviewing. Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody. Todd. Todd D. Williams Counsel Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. One CNN Center, 10 North Atlanta, Georgia 30303 P: 404-827-2234 F: 404-827-1994 todd.williams@turner.com<mailto:todd.williams@turner.com> * Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E. 1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach of material service terms such as Internet abuse) 2) Google 3) 1&1 Internet SE 4) Access Now 5) Endurance Int'l Group 6) Jeff Wheelhouse 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service terms such as net abuse) 8) Greg McMullen 9) Evelyn Aya Snow 10) Ralf Haring 11) Liam 12) Dr M Klinefelter 13) Sam 14) Dan M 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas 16) Not your business 17) Simon Kissane 18) TS 19) Cort Wee 20) Alex Xu 21) Kenneth Godwin 22) Shahed Ahmmed 23) Sebastian Broussier 24) Andrew Merenbach 25) Finn Ellis 26) Aaron Holmes 27) Michael Ekstrand 28) Homer 29) Donuts 30) Michael Ho 31) Key Systems * Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework. 1) BC 2) MPAA 3) ISPCP 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge 5) INTA 6) IACC 7) NCSG 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas 9) Cyberinvasion 10) Phil Crooker 11) Aaron Myers 12) Cui (ADNDRC) 13) Mike Fewings 14) Name withheld 15) Gary Miller 16) Byunghoon Choi 17) Reid Baker 18) Nick O'Dell 19) Time Warner 20) RIAA & IFPI 21) IPC 22) Thomas Smoonlock 23) Vanda Scartezini 24) Tim Kramer * Bucket Three: unclear. 1) Sven Slootweg 2) Brendan Conniff 3) Marc Schauber 4) Aaron Mason 5) Kevin Szprychel 6) Christopher 7) James Ford 8) Shantanu Gupta 9) Christopher Smith 10) Private 11) Robert Lukitsh 12) Adam Miller 13) Charles 14) Aaron Dalton 15) Stephen Black Wolf 16) Ian McNeil 17) Adam Creighton 18) Arthur Zonnenberg 19) Anand S. 20) Lucas Stadler 21) Alan _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3
Dear all, As I¹m preparing to send out the agenda for the WG call tomorrow, along with associated documents, I¹m trying to consolidate Kathy¹s edited document with Sara¹s review that wasn¹t in Kathy¹s version. I also thought to offer the following suggested edit to the language around ³verifiable evidence² for your consideration: "The sub-team is working to better understand the meaning of ³verifiable evidence of wrongdoing² and whether these commenters intended for this wording to seek a different or more specific standard for revealdisclosure, namelysuch as a court order in which the court ³verifies² the abuse or infringement alleged with a specific judicial finding, or alternatively, whether the commenters seek a higher standard of evidence and proof in Annex E (which isdoes not currently specify what is a ³verifiable evidence² standard) before disclosure. In this regard the sub-team notes that many signatories to the petition also added specific comments that may refer to this standard. These comments are currently under review." The other suggestion I had was to reorganize the document slightly, to make it clearer what the ³buckets² are. In this regard, I suggest moving up the following summary from Sara to where Kathy¹s insertions began (after the specific suggestions for Annex E and before Darcy¹s additions): "Our sub-team also reviewed and analyzed 39 comments including one with 10,000+ signatures from the Respect Our Privacy petition and one with 10,042 signatures from the Save Domain Privacy petition that oppose the basic premise of Annex E. The comments fell into 1 or 4 categories: Category 1 - No disclosure/publication ever. Category 2 - No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. Category 3 - No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP) Category 4 - No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse." Please let me know if you have any comments or objections to the above. Thank you! Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org From: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com> Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 10:13 To: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org>, Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Thanks Kathy. My thoughts on the attached:
· My only point on the ³contested vs. uncontested² language was to distinguish those suggested changes to Annex E for which we received comments on both sides of a question vs. those suggested changes for which we did not. Mainly it was just to distinguish the final two paragraphs conceptually. But your changes serve that same purpose well.
· I don¹t understand why we would include ³while seeking significantly higher standards for disclosure and options to disclosure² in the third paragraph. We get to what changes the various comments suggested (including which comments asked for higher disclosure standards, and which asked for lower) later in the document. That third paragraph is just noting which comments supported certain sections of Annex E. Plus I¹m not sure that all of the comments mentioned in that third paragraph did in fact seek ³significantly higher standards for disclosure.²
· Isn¹t the analysis of the 11,000 comments from Respect our Privacy contained in Sara and Holly¹s section (see attached)? Why would we reference them twice?
· Darcy¹s analysis of the ³miscellaneous² bucket looks great. Many thanks Darcy in many ways I think you took the most difficult part, because sometimes it¹s hard to make sense of how exactly those comments were relevant!
Finally: for the reasons I¹ve already outlined in the attached email, I don¹t understand why we would say that the process outlined in Annex E ³is not currently a verifiable evidence standard.² As I mentioned before, the "evidence" that Annex E requires, as outlined in Sections II(A), (B), and (C), is extensive. So I don¹t see any argument why Annex E wouldn¹t meet the ³evidence² part of ³verifiable evidence.²
So I think what we¹re really trying to interpret is ³verifiable.² And Kathy in the attached has offered the interpretation that ³verifiable² means ³a court order in which the court verifies¹ the abuse or infringement alleged with a specific judicial finding.² But if that was the correct interpretation, wouldn¹t the word be ³verified² instead of ³verifiable²? If a court has issued an order, then it has already done the verifying.
Rather, I think the basic plain meaning of ³verifiable² and hence the meaning that we should assume the 10,000+ supporters signed on to is simply ³able to be checked or proved.² So it seems much simpler to read ³verifiable² to support the portions of Sections III(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E that give P/P Providers the ability to verify the evidence submitted by a Requester by notifying the P/P Customer of the complaint, reviewing the P/P Customer¹s response, and then responding to the Requester with either disclosure or its reasons for refusing to disclose which reasons may come from either the Customer under Section III(C)(ii), or from the P/P Provider¹s own investigation under Section III(C)(iii). In other words, the most plausible reading of ³verifiable² is that it simply means that it is not enough for the Requester to provide any evidence and then disclosure automatically follows. Rather, the evidence must be capable of being verified. Which is what Section III provides.
From: Mary Wong [mailto:mary.wong@icann.org] Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 7:08 PM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>; Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Thanks everyone, that is a lot of work and a document that will clearly help advance the WG¹s progress quite a bit!
Kathy can I confirm that the document you edited is Darcy¹s update to Todd¹s last version, and so does not include what was added/sent by Sara? I¹m trying to keep all the drafts clear and ordered, and that¹s what it looks like to me. If that¹s the case, I will add Sara¹s report to Kathy¹s document (unless there are further changes between now and the WG call on Tuesday). I¹ll then upload the consolidated draft document and have that ready for the WG at the Tuesday meeting.
All it seems to me that the question as to where the comments relating to ³verifiable evidence² should fit is a question that you may wish to bring back to the WG on Tuesday, if there is still no agreement amongst yourselves by then.
Finally two minor suggested changes, both to do with numbers: first, I¹d suggest that instead of saying 10,042 comments came with the Save Domain Privacy petition we should say that the petition had 10,042 signatories. Secondly, I suggest adding the word ³approximately² to the 11,000 Respect Your Privacy comments.
I hope this helps, and thank you all again. Following the WG call on Tuesday, please let me know how you would like to proceed and if there is a need for the Sub Team to get together for a call to discuss its final recommendations to the WG (due in about 2-3 weeks from this Tuesday, according to the current WG Work Plan).
Thanks and cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email: mary.wong@icann.org
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com> Date: Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 18:40 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Hi Todd and All, Nice job! I reviewed the entire document and attached is my crack at our summary. I think it includes everyone additions and edits to date (but please check!).
I've lost track of who drafted what sections, but I think we are moving in the right direction. Some really good work has been done. I made one small change and two bigger ones and few general edits. The small change is removing the reference to contested and uncontested edits since I am not sure what an uncontested edit and whether commenters would have contested it if they knew what the proposed edit would be. (Unfortunately, since our "Reply Comment" period was removed by ICANN, we don't have this important reply time to review others edits and support or contest them.).
I also added in two short paragraphs. The first one describes the Save Domains Privacy comments, the petition language, and the discussion now in place in our sub-team over the meaning of these comments. Perhaps others in the WG can help us shed light on the questions being raised in our sub-team.
The second paragraph summarizes the 11,000 Respect Our Privacy comments. They told us that "No one's personal information should be revealed without a court order," and of course, we should reflect them in our summary.
On my machine, my redlines appear in red, and the prior editor's redlines (for the paragraphs at the end starting "Finally, our sub-team reviewed and analyzed 21 miscellaneous comments...") appear in grey. I hope these redlines are clear for you too.
Best and enjoy the rest of the weekend, Kathy
:
Kathy:
Attached is my first crack at our portion of the summary (on the Bucket Two comments). Let me know if you have any suggested edits, additions, subtractions, etc.
Also, I¹ve copied the entire sub-team mailing list on this email, for two reasons:
1) So that there is a transparent public record of any back-and-forth red-lining of the document that we may do; and
2) So that Sara and Holly for Bucket One, and Darcy for our miscellaneous bucket, can see what I envision for our summary report to the WG. If you all want to add your summaries to this one to make it consistent in terms of formatting, etc., feel free.
I had one thought Sara and Holly for Bucket One (which came to me as I was conceptually dividing our Bucket Two comments into general support, specific support, suggested changes by addition, suggested edits uncontested, suggested edits contested): it may be helpful for the WG if we divide our Bucket One comments into categories along a spectrum. As I envision it (in order along the spectrum):
1) No disclosure/publication ever.
2) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. I would put the 10,000+ ³Respect our Privacy² comments here.
3) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP). E.g., I think the Google comment would go here.
4) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse. E.g., I think the ICA and EasyDNS comments would go here.
For the WG¹s sake, we may also want to distinguish between those Bucket One comments that couched their discussion of disclosure/publication in terms of what P/P Providers ought to be required to do (or not required to do) in response to external third-party disclosure requests such as from IP owners or LEA (e.g., the Google and Key Systems comments) vs. those Bucket One comments that simply said ³no publication/disclosure absent a court order² without distinguishing b/w whether the impetus for the disclosure was an external third-party request or the P/P Provider¹s own desire to disclose/publish (e.g., the 10,000+ ³Respect our Privacy² comments).
Thanks all!
TW.
From: Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:06 AM To: Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com> <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com> ; Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com> <mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com> ; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Whoops, I left out Jawala at the bottom, who should go in bucket two. Sorry.
From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:01 AM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I¹ve added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks.
From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Tx Mary! Kathy :
Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I¹ll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG¹s preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though ³attached² to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I¹m afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team¹s Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you¹re working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG¹s preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates.
I¹m happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I¹m happy to do that (per Kathy¹s suggestion on the call today) while I¹m doing the current update anyway.
Thanks and cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>
on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com> > Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com <mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com> , Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net <mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net> > Cc: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> " <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I¹ve been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I¹ve attached I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that):
· First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG¹s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue.
· Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG¹s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the ³Respect our Privacy² submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly¹s point though that in this paragraph we should note that the ³Respect our Privacy² submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google¹s, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, and didn¹t accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice.
· Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG¹s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that ³verifiable evidence of wrongdoing² is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a ³higher standard.² From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary.
· Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we¹re not sure what to do with.
That¹s how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below:
· Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn¹t touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I¹m pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4¹s work). Not that I¹m not interested in LE just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams.
· In response to Mary¹s email (attached): I agree that I¹m not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we¹re certainly planning to do), then I don¹t see why we¹d need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that¹s fine. I just don¹t see how that helps us get to our final work product.
· Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team¹s role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we do about that? I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I¹m just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier.
Thanks all!
From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> ] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net <mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net> > Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx!
Hi Everyone
First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so.
The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from.
==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever.
The second is one I¹d like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way.
==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one¹s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency². (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?)
My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket)
The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are.
==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead!
My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I¹d suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex.
==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category.
I²ll be having a look at that third category
My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not.
==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy
Happy to discuss
Holly
On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com> wrote:
> > Hi Mary and All, > Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our > discussion. > > Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been > included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments > we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All > of these comments contain a clear call: > - No one¹s personal information should be revealed without a court > order, > regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law > enforcement agency. > > Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of > commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which > would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool? > > Best and tx, > Kathy > > : > > Dear all, > > > > Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive > comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for > spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for > the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for > the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) > on PAGE 39. > > > > Apologies again for the inadvertent omission they have been added to > these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were > received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I¹ll update > the Sub Team wiki page accordingly. > > > > Thanks and cheers > > Mary > > > Mary Wong > > Senior Policy Director > > Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) > > Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 > > Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> > > > > > > From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org > <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> > on behalf of Mary Wong > <mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> > > Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 > To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com > <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com> >, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org > <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> " <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org > <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > > Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan > > > > Hello Todd and everyone, > > > > Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list! > > > Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I > apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of > comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting > the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am > very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes > WG members¹ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits > don¹t replace WG members¹ reading the comments themselves if possible. > At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as > thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our > efforts and a WG¹s/Sub Team¹s eagle eyes is the best arrangement. > > > > Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address > specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the > online template responses that do the same. The Word document is > therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or > the full WG, as appropriate). I¹ve taken a quick look through my > documents/collected comments and don¹t believe I have missed out any > others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word > documents I¹ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure. > > > > On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd¹s suggested approach > seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves > would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups > to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd¹s initial sweep, > and in doing so also note any comments that didn¹t address either so > that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or > considered by the full WG (if appropriate). > > > > BTW, Todd, maybe it¹s my machine or more likely that I haven¹t looked > through it in detail, but I¹m not seeing your comments/additions/edits > in the document you circulated . ? > > > > Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance > from staff in any way! > > > > Cheers > > Mary > > > > Mary Wong > > Senior Policy Director > > Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) > > Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 > > Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> > > > > > > > > From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org > <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> > on behalf of "Williams, Todd" > <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com> > > Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 > To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> " > <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > > Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan > > > > Am I the first to try this out? Cool. > > > > As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the > presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was > helpful to illustrate where we¹ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn > might help us decide what we¹ll need to do to get there. Specifically, > I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two > basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I¹d recommend > that we do the same. Here are the two that I¹d propose: > > > > 1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead > argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a > court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. > Presumably this group would present on: > > · How many of these comments were there? > > · Who did they come from? > > · What arguments did they make? > > · What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions > of the Initial Report beyond Annex E? > > 2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P > Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, > subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to > whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be > modified. Presumably this group would present on: > > · How many of these comments were there? > > · Who did they come from? > > · What arguments did they make? > > · What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address > the arguments raised in these comments? > > > > I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it > will help our sub-team ³divide and conquer² the work that we have before > us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I¹m not really sure how > we¹d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A > comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose > and/or publish absent a court order isn¹t arguing for changes to Annex > E; it¹s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether. > > > > With those two buckets in mind, I¹ve taken a first pass through the > comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated > (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to > make sure that they agree with how I¹ve tentatively divided the > comments? Once we¹re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the > next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some > members want to tackle the third ³unclear² category) to start reviewing > the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present > to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other > questions that anybody wants to suggest). > > > > Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of > information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was > compiled? I¹m just curious because I want to make sure that our > sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For > example, I know that Turner¹s comment (available > here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3 > VcnSR7.pdf > <http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnS > R7.pdf> ) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn¹t included in the > attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted > it. J So I want to make sure that there aren¹t other comments on Annex > E that we also ought to be reviewing. > > > > Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody. > > > Todd. > > > > Todd D. Williams > > Counsel > Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. > One CNN Center, 10 North > > Atlanta, Georgia 30303 > P: 404-827-2234 > > F: 404-827-1994 > > todd.williams@turner.com <mailto:todd.williams@turner.com> > > > > · Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E. > > 1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach > of material service terms such as Internet abuse) > > 2) Google > > 3) 1&1 Internet SE > > 4) Access Now > > 5) Endurance Int¹l Group > > 6) Jeff Wheelhouse > > 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service > terms such as net abuse) > > 8) Greg McMullen > > 9) Evelyn Aya Snow > > 10) Ralf Haring > > 11) Liam > > 12) Dr M Klinefelter > > 13) Sam > > 14) Dan M > > 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas > > 16) Not your business > > 17) Simon Kissane > > 18) TS > > 19) Cort Wee > > 20) Alex Xu > > 21) Kenneth Godwin > > 22) Shahed Ahmmed > > 23) Sebastian Broussier > > 24) Andrew Merenbach > > 25) Finn Ellis > > 26) Aaron Holmes > > 27) Michael Ekstrand > > 28) Homer > > 29) Donuts > > 30) Michael Ho > > 31) Key Systems > * Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how > to change the Disclosure Framework. > 1) BC > > 2) MPAA > > 3) ISPCP > > 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge > > 5) INTA > > 6) IACC > > 7) NCSG > > 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas > > 9) Cyberinvasion > > 10) Phil Crooker > > 11) Aaron Myers > > 12) Cui (ADNDRC) > > 13) Mike Fewings > > 14) Name withheld > > 15) Gary Miller > > 16) Byunghoon Choi > > 17) Reid Baker > > 18) Nick O¹Dell > > 19) Time Warner > > 20) RIAA & IFPI > > 21) IPC > > 22) Thomas Smoonlock > > 23) Vanda Scartezini > > 24) Tim Kramer > * Bucket Three: unclear. > 1) Sven Slootweg > > 2) Brendan Conniff > > 3) Marc Schauber > > 4) Aaron Mason > > 5) Kevin Szprychel > > 6) Christopher > > 7) James Ford > > 8) Shantanu Gupta > > 9) Christopher Smith > > 10) Private > > 11) Robert Lukitsh > > 12) Adam Miller > > 13) Charles > > 14) Aaron Dalton > > 15) Stephen Black Wolf > > 16) Ian McNeil > > 17) Adam Creighton > > 18) Arthur Zonnenberg > > 19) Anand S. > > 20) Lucas Stadler > > 21) Alan > > > > _______________________________________________ > Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list > Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 > <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3> > > _______________________________________________ > Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list > Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 > <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3>
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Thanks Mary. To your last point: I think the question of whether the 10,042 signatures from the Save Domain Privacy petition support or oppose the basic premise of Annex E is what we're debating. So no, we shouldn't use that sentence until we've decided that point. I think we've still got some good emails going on these open questions. But we shouldn't hold up your sending out the agenda. Could you send out the agenda noting that our sub-team will be presenting, but then circulate our final document later once it's done (but before tomorrow morning obviously)? From: gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Mary Wong Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 11:38 AM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Dear all, As I'm preparing to send out the agenda for the WG call tomorrow, along with associated documents, I'm trying to consolidate Kathy's edited document with Sara's review that wasn't in Kathy's version. I also thought to offer the following suggested edit to the language around "verifiable evidence" for your consideration: "The sub-team is working to better understand the meaning of "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" and whether these commenters intended for this wording to seek a different or more specific standard for revealdisclosure, namelysuch as a court order in which the court "verifies" the abuse or infringement alleged with a specific judicial finding, or alternatively, whether the commenters seek a higher standard of evidence and proof in Annex E (which isdoes not currently specify what is a "verifiable evidence" standard) before disclosure. In this regard the sub-team notes that many signatories to the petition also added specific comments that may refer to this standard. These comments are currently under review." The other suggestion I had was to reorganize the document slightly, to make it clearer what the "buckets" are. In this regard, I suggest moving up the following summary from Sara to where Kathy's insertions began (after the specific suggestions for Annex E and before Darcy's additions): "Our sub-team also reviewed and analyzed 39 comments - including one with 10,000+ signatures from the Respect Our Privacy petition and one with 10,042 signatures from the Save Domain Privacy petition - that oppose the basic premise of Annex E. The comments fell into 1 or 4 categories: Category 1 - No disclosure/publication ever. Category 2 - No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. Category 3 - No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP) Category 4 - No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse." Please let me know if you have any comments or objections to the above. Thank you! Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 10:13 To: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>>, Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks Kathy. My thoughts on the attached: * My only point on the "contested vs. uncontested" language was to distinguish those suggested changes to Annex E for which we received comments on both sides of a question vs. those suggested changes for which we did not. Mainly it was just to distinguish the final two paragraphs conceptually. But your changes serve that same purpose well. * I don't understand why we would include "while seeking significantly higher standards for disclosure and options to disclosure" in the third paragraph. We get to what changes the various comments suggested (including which comments asked for higher disclosure standards, and which asked for lower) later in the document. That third paragraph is just noting which comments supported certain sections of Annex E. Plus I'm not sure that all of the comments mentioned in that third paragraph did in fact seek "significantly higher standards for disclosure." * Isn't the analysis of the 11,000 comments from Respect our Privacy contained in Sara and Holly's section (see attached)? Why would we reference them twice? * Darcy's analysis of the "miscellaneous" bucket looks great. Many thanks Darcy - in many ways I think you took the most difficult part, because sometimes it's hard to make sense of how exactly those comments were relevant! Finally: for the reasons I've already outlined in the attached email, I don't understand why we would say that the process outlined in Annex E "is not currently a verifiable evidence standard." As I mentioned before, the "evidence" that Annex E requires, as outlined in Sections II(A), (B), and (C), is extensive. So I don't see any argument why Annex E wouldn't meet the "evidence" part of "verifiable evidence." So I think what we're really trying to interpret is "verifiable." And Kathy in the attached has offered the interpretation that "verifiable" means "a court order in which the court 'verifies' the abuse or infringement alleged with a specific judicial finding." But if that was the correct interpretation, wouldn't the word be "verified" instead of "verifiable"? If a court has issued an order, then it has already done the verifying. Rather, I think the basic plain meaning of "verifiable" - and hence the meaning that we should assume the 10,000+ supporters signed on to - is simply "able to be checked or proved." So it seems much simpler to read "verifiable" to support the portions of Sections III(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E that give P/P Providers the ability to verify the evidence submitted by a Requester by notifying the P/P Customer of the complaint, reviewing the P/P Customer's response, and then responding to the Requester with either disclosure or its reasons for refusing to disclose - which reasons may come from either the Customer under Section III(C)(ii), or from the P/P Provider's own investigation under Section III(C)(iii). In other words, the most plausible reading of "verifiable" is that it simply means that it is not enough for the Requester to provide any evidence and then disclosure automatically follows. Rather, the evidence must be capable of being verified. Which is what Section III provides. From: Mary Wong [mailto:mary.wong@icann.org] Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 7:08 PM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks everyone, that is a lot of work and a document that will clearly help advance the WG's progress quite a bit! Kathy - can I confirm that the document you edited is Darcy's update to Todd's last version, and so does not include what was added/sent by Sara? I'm trying to keep all the drafts clear and ordered, and that's what it looks like to me. If that's the case, I will add Sara's report to Kathy's document (unless there are further changes between now and the WG call on Tuesday). I'll then upload the consolidated draft document and have that ready for the WG at the Tuesday meeting. All - it seems to me that the question as to where the comments relating to "verifiable evidence" should fit is a question that you may wish to bring back to the WG on Tuesday, if there is still no agreement amongst yourselves by then. Finally - two minor suggested changes, both to do with numbers: first, I'd suggest that instead of saying 10,042 comments came with the Save Domain Privacy petition we should say that the petition had 10,042 signatories. Secondly, I suggest adding the word "approximately" to the 11,000 Respect Your Privacy comments. I hope this helps, and thank you all again. Following the WG call on Tuesday, please let me know how you would like to proceed and if there is a need for the Sub Team to get together for a call to discuss its final recommendations to the WG (due in about 2-3 weeks from this Tuesday, according to the current WG Work Plan). Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>> Date: Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 18:40 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi Todd and All, Nice job! I reviewed the entire document and attached is my crack at our summary. I think it includes everyone additions and edits to date (but please check!). I've lost track of who drafted what sections, but I think we are moving in the right direction. Some really good work has been done. I made one small change and two bigger ones and few general edits. The small change is removing the reference to contested and uncontested edits since I am not sure what an uncontested edit and whether commenters would have contested it if they knew what the proposed edit would be. (Unfortunately, since our "Reply Comment" period was removed by ICANN, we don't have this important reply time to review others edits and support or contest them.). I also added in two short paragraphs. The first one describes the Save Domains Privacy comments, the petition language, and the discussion now in place in our sub-team over the meaning of these comments. Perhaps others in the WG can help us shed light on the questions being raised in our sub-team. The second paragraph summarizes the 11,000 Respect Our Privacy comments. They told us that "No one's personal information should be revealed without a court order," and of course, we should reflect them in our summary. On my machine, my redlines appear in red, and the prior editor's redlines (for the paragraphs at the end starting "Finally, our sub-team reviewed and analyzed 21 miscellaneous comments...") appear in grey. I hope these redlines are clear for you too. Best and enjoy the rest of the weekend, Kathy : Kathy: Attached is my first crack at our portion of the summary (on the Bucket Two comments). Let me know if you have any suggested edits, additions, subtractions, etc. Also, I've copied the entire sub-team mailing list on this email, for two reasons: 1) So that there is a transparent public record of any back-and-forth red-lining of the document that we may do; and 2) So that Sara and Holly for Bucket One, and Darcy for our miscellaneous bucket, can see what I envision for our summary report to the WG. If you all want to add your summaries to this one to make it consistent in terms of formatting, etc., feel free. I had one thought Sara and Holly for Bucket One (which came to me as I was conceptually dividing our Bucket Two comments into general support, specific support, suggested changes by addition, suggested edits uncontested, suggested edits contested): it may be helpful for the WG if we divide our Bucket One comments into categories along a spectrum. As I envision it (in order along the spectrum): 1) No disclosure/publication ever. 2) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. I would put the 10,000+ "Respect our Privacy" comments here. 3) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP). E.g., I think the Google comment would go here. 4) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse. E.g., I think the ICA and EasyDNS comments would go here. For the WG's sake, we may also want to distinguish between those Bucket One comments that couched their discussion of disclosure/publication in terms of what P/P Providers ought to be required to do (or not required to do) in response to external third-party disclosure requests such as from IP owners or LEA (e.g., the Google and Key Systems comments) vs. those Bucket One comments that simply said "no publication/disclosure absent a court order" without distinguishing b/w whether the impetus for the disclosure was an external third-party request or the P/P Provider's own desire to disclose/publish (e.g., the 10,000+ "Respect our Privacy" comments). Thanks all! TW. From: Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:06 AM To: Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com><mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>; Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com><mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Whoops, I left out Jawala at the bottom, who should go in bucket two. Sorry. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:01 AM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I've added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Tx Mary! Kathy : Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone - this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I'll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG's preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though "attached" to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I'm afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team's Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you're working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can - with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG's preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates. I'm happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I'm happy to do that (per Kathy's suggestion on the call today) while I'm doing the current update anyway. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I've been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I've attached - I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that): * First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG's proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue. * Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG's proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the "Respect our Privacy" submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly's point though that in this paragraph we should note that the "Respect our Privacy" submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google's, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, and didn't accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice. * Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG's proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a "higher standard." From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary. * Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we're not sure what to do with. That's how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below: * Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn't touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I'm pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4's work). Not that I'm not interested in LE - just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams. * In response to Mary's email (attached): I agree that I'm not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we're certainly planning to do), then I don't see why we'd need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that's fine. I just don't see how that helps us get to our final work product. * Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team's role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that - OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we do about that? - I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I'm just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier. Thanks all! From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx! Hi Everyone First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so. The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from. ==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever. The second is one I'd like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way. ==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one's personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency". (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?) My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket) The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are. ==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead! My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I'd suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex. ==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category. I"ll be having a look at that third category My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not. ==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy Happy to discuss Holly On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:Kathy@kathykleiman.com>> wrote: Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion. Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All of these comments contain a clear call: - No one's personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency. Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool? Best and tx, Kathy : Dear all, Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39. Apologies again for the inadvertent omission - they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I'll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Hello Todd and everyone, Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list! Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members' questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don't replace WG members' reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG's/Sub Team's eagle eyes is the best arrangement. Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I've taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don't believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I've compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure. On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd's suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd's initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn't address either - so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate). BTW, Todd, maybe it's my machine or more likely that I haven't looked through it in detail, but I'm not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated .... ? Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way! Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Am I the first to try this out? Cool. As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was helpful to illustrate where we'll need to be by 8-11, which in turn might help us decide what we'll need to do to get there. Specifically, I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I'd recommend that we do the same. Here are the two that I'd propose: 1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. Presumably this group would present on: * How many of these comments were there? * Who did they come from? * What arguments did they make? * What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions of the Initial Report beyond Annex E? 2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. Presumably this group would present on: * How many of these comments were there? * Who did they come from? * What arguments did they make? * What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address the arguments raised in these comments? I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it will help our sub-team "divide and conquer" the work that we have before us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I'm not really sure how we'd otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose and/or publish absent a court order isn't arguing for changes to Annex E; it's arguing to scrap Annex E altogether. With those two buckets in mind, I've taken a first pass through the comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to make sure that they agree with how I've tentatively divided the comments? Once we're comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some members want to tackle the third "unclear" category) to start reviewing the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other questions that anybody wants to suggest). Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was compiled? I'm just curious because I want to make sure that our sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For example, I know that Turner's comment (available here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnSR7.pd...) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn't included in the attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted it. :) So I want to make sure that there aren't other comments on Annex E that we also ought to be reviewing. Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody. Todd. Todd D. Williams Counsel Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. One CNN Center, 10 North Atlanta, Georgia 30303 P: 404-827-2234 F: 404-827-1994 todd.williams@turner.com<mailto:todd.williams@turner.com> * Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E. 1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach of material service terms such as Internet abuse) 2) Google 3) 1&1 Internet SE 4) Access Now 5) Endurance Int'l Group 6) Jeff Wheelhouse 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service terms such as net abuse) 8) Greg McMullen 9) Evelyn Aya Snow 10) Ralf Haring 11) Liam 12) Dr M Klinefelter 13) Sam 14) Dan M 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas 16) Not your business 17) Simon Kissane 18) TS 19) Cort Wee 20) Alex Xu 21) Kenneth Godwin 22) Shahed Ahmmed 23) Sebastian Broussier 24) Andrew Merenbach 25) Finn Ellis 26) Aaron Holmes 27) Michael Ekstrand 28) Homer 29) Donuts 30) Michael Ho 31) Key Systems * Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework. 1) BC 2) MPAA 3) ISPCP 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge 5) INTA 6) IACC 7) NCSG 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas 9) Cyberinvasion 10) Phil Crooker 11) Aaron Myers 12) Cui (ADNDRC) 13) Mike Fewings 14) Name withheld 15) Gary Miller 16) Byunghoon Choi 17) Reid Baker 18) Nick O'Dell 19) Time Warner 20) RIAA & IFPI 21) IPC 22) Thomas Smoonlock 23) Vanda Scartezini 24) Tim Kramer * Bucket Three: unclear. 1) Sven Slootweg 2) Brendan Conniff 3) Marc Schauber 4) Aaron Mason 5) Kevin Szprychel 6) Christopher 7) James Ford 8) Shantanu Gupta 9) Christopher Smith 10) Private 11) Robert Lukitsh 12) Adam Miller 13) Charles 14) Aaron Dalton 15) Stephen Black Wolf 16) Ian McNeil 17) Adam Creighton 18) Arthur Zonnenberg 19) Anand S. 20) Lucas Stadler 21) Alan _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3
Hi Todd, yes, certainly thank you! Actually, my second suggestion was really meant to have us just include a description of the 4 categories (buckets) somewhere in the document, preferably early on. I agree that any conclusion about the petition comments shouldn¹t be included unless the Sub Team has agreed on it. As has been the case elsewhere, it may also be possible to ³square bracket² or otherwise highlight the options/differences under consideration, should that be a more appropriate alternative before tomorrow. Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org From: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com> Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 11:54 To: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Thanks Mary. To your last point: I think the question of whether the 10,042 signatures from the Save Domain Privacy petition support or oppose the basic premise of Annex E is what we¹re debating. So no, we shouldn¹t use that sentence until we¹ve decided that point.
I think we¹ve still got some good emails going on these open questions. But we shouldn¹t hold up your sending out the agenda. Could you send out the agenda noting that our sub-team will be presenting, but then circulate our final document later once it¹s done (but before tomorrow morning obviously)?
From: gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Mary Wong Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 11:38 AM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Dear all,
As I¹m preparing to send out the agenda for the WG call tomorrow, along with associated documents, I¹m trying to consolidate Kathy¹s edited document with Sara¹s review that wasn¹t in Kathy¹s version. I also thought to offer the following suggested edit to the language around ³verifiable evidence² for your consideration:
"The sub-team is working to better understand the meaning of ³verifiable evidence of wrongdoing² and whether these commenters intended for this wording to seek a different or more specific standard for revealdisclosure, namelysuch as a court order in which the court ³verifies² the abuse or infringement alleged with a specific judicial finding, or alternatively, whether the commenters seek a higher standard of evidence and proof in Annex E (which isdoes not currently specify what is a ³verifiable evidence² standard) before disclosure. In this regard the sub-team notes that many signatories to the petition also added specific comments that may refer to this standard. These comments are currently under review."
The other suggestion I had was to reorganize the document slightly, to make it clearer what the ³buckets² are. In this regard, I suggest moving up the following summary from Sara to where Kathy¹s insertions began (after the specific suggestions for Annex E and before Darcy¹s additions):
"Our sub-team also reviewed and analyzed 39 comments including one with 10,000+ signatures from the Respect Our Privacy petition and one with 10,042 signatures from the Save Domain Privacy petition that oppose the basic premise of Annex E. The comments fell into 1 or 4 categories:
Category 1 - No disclosure/publication ever.
Category 2 - No disclosure/publication unless following a court order.
Category 3 - No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP)
Category 4 - No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse."
Please let me know if you have any comments or objections to the above. Thank you!
Cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email: mary.wong@icann.org
From: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com> Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 10:13 To: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org>, Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Thanks Kathy. My thoughts on the attached:
· My only point on the ³contested vs. uncontested² language was to distinguish those suggested changes to Annex E for which we received comments on both sides of a question vs. those suggested changes for which we did not. Mainly it was just to distinguish the final two paragraphs conceptually. But your changes serve that same purpose well.
· I don¹t understand why we would include ³while seeking significantly higher standards for disclosure and options to disclosure² in the third paragraph. We get to what changes the various comments suggested (including which comments asked for higher disclosure standards, and which asked for lower) later in the document. That third paragraph is just noting which comments supported certain sections of Annex E. Plus I¹m not sure that all of the comments mentioned in that third paragraph did in fact seek ³significantly higher standards for disclosure.²
· Isn¹t the analysis of the 11,000 comments from Respect our Privacy contained in Sara and Holly¹s section (see attached)? Why would we reference them twice?
· Darcy¹s analysis of the ³miscellaneous² bucket looks great. Many thanks Darcy in many ways I think you took the most difficult part, because sometimes it¹s hard to make sense of how exactly those comments were relevant!
Finally: for the reasons I¹ve already outlined in the attached email, I don¹t understand why we would say that the process outlined in Annex E ³is not currently a verifiable evidence standard.² As I mentioned before, the "evidence" that Annex E requires, as outlined in Sections II(A), (B), and (C), is extensive. So I don¹t see any argument why Annex E wouldn¹t meet the ³evidence² part of ³verifiable evidence.²
So I think what we¹re really trying to interpret is ³verifiable.² And Kathy in the attached has offered the interpretation that ³verifiable² means ³a court order in which the court verifies¹ the abuse or infringement alleged with a specific judicial finding.² But if that was the correct interpretation, wouldn¹t the word be ³verified² instead of ³verifiable²? If a court has issued an order, then it has already done the verifying.
Rather, I think the basic plain meaning of ³verifiable² and hence the meaning that we should assume the 10,000+ supporters signed on to is simply ³able to be checked or proved.² So it seems much simpler to read ³verifiable² to support the portions of Sections III(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E that give P/P Providers the ability to verify the evidence submitted by a Requester by notifying the P/P Customer of the complaint, reviewing the P/P Customer¹s response, and then responding to the Requester with either disclosure or its reasons for refusing to disclose which reasons may come from either the Customer under Section III(C)(ii), or from the P/P Provider¹s own investigation under Section III(C)(iii). In other words, the most plausible reading of ³verifiable² is that it simply means that it is not enough for the Requester to provide any evidence and then disclosure automatically follows. Rather, the evidence must be capable of being verified. Which is what Section III provides.
From: Mary Wong [mailto:mary.wong@icann.org] Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 7:08 PM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>; Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Thanks everyone, that is a lot of work and a document that will clearly help advance the WG¹s progress quite a bit!
Kathy can I confirm that the document you edited is Darcy¹s update to Todd¹s last version, and so does not include what was added/sent by Sara? I¹m trying to keep all the drafts clear and ordered, and that¹s what it looks like to me. If that¹s the case, I will add Sara¹s report to Kathy¹s document (unless there are further changes between now and the WG call on Tuesday). I¹ll then upload the consolidated draft document and have that ready for the WG at the Tuesday meeting.
All it seems to me that the question as to where the comments relating to ³verifiable evidence² should fit is a question that you may wish to bring back to the WG on Tuesday, if there is still no agreement amongst yourselves by then.
Finally two minor suggested changes, both to do with numbers: first, I¹d suggest that instead of saying 10,042 comments came with the Save Domain Privacy petition we should say that the petition had 10,042 signatories. Secondly, I suggest adding the word ³approximately² to the 11,000 Respect Your Privacy comments.
I hope this helps, and thank you all again. Following the WG call on Tuesday, please let me know how you would like to proceed and if there is a need for the Sub Team to get together for a call to discuss its final recommendations to the WG (due in about 2-3 weeks from this Tuesday, according to the current WG Work Plan).
Thanks and cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email: mary.wong@icann.org
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com> Date: Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 18:40 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Hi Todd and All, Nice job! I reviewed the entire document and attached is my crack at our summary. I think it includes everyone additions and edits to date (but please check!).
I've lost track of who drafted what sections, but I think we are moving in the right direction. Some really good work has been done. I made one small change and two bigger ones and few general edits. The small change is removing the reference to contested and uncontested edits since I am not sure what an uncontested edit and whether commenters would have contested it if they knew what the proposed edit would be. (Unfortunately, since our "Reply Comment" period was removed by ICANN, we don't have this important reply time to review others edits and support or contest them.).
I also added in two short paragraphs. The first one describes the Save Domains Privacy comments, the petition language, and the discussion now in place in our sub-team over the meaning of these comments. Perhaps others in the WG can help us shed light on the questions being raised in our sub-team.
The second paragraph summarizes the 11,000 Respect Our Privacy comments. They told us that "No one's personal information should be revealed without a court order," and of course, we should reflect them in our summary.
On my machine, my redlines appear in red, and the prior editor's redlines (for the paragraphs at the end starting "Finally, our sub-team reviewed and analyzed 21 miscellaneous comments...") appear in grey. I hope these redlines are clear for you too.
Best and enjoy the rest of the weekend, Kathy
:
Kathy:
Attached is my first crack at our portion of the summary (on the Bucket Two comments). Let me know if you have any suggested edits, additions, subtractions, etc.
Also, I¹ve copied the entire sub-team mailing list on this email, for two reasons:
1) So that there is a transparent public record of any back-and-forth red-lining of the document that we may do; and
2) So that Sara and Holly for Bucket One, and Darcy for our miscellaneous bucket, can see what I envision for our summary report to the WG. If you all want to add your summaries to this one to make it consistent in terms of formatting, etc., feel free.
I had one thought Sara and Holly for Bucket One (which came to me as I was conceptually dividing our Bucket Two comments into general support, specific support, suggested changes by addition, suggested edits uncontested, suggested edits contested): it may be helpful for the WG if we divide our Bucket One comments into categories along a spectrum. As I envision it (in order along the spectrum):
1) No disclosure/publication ever.
2) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. I would put the 10,000+ ³Respect our Privacy² comments here.
3) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP). E.g., I think the Google comment would go here.
4) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse. E.g., I think the ICA and EasyDNS comments would go here.
For the WG¹s sake, we may also want to distinguish between those Bucket One comments that couched their discussion of disclosure/publication in terms of what P/P Providers ought to be required to do (or not required to do) in response to external third-party disclosure requests such as from IP owners or LEA (e.g., the Google and Key Systems comments) vs. those Bucket One comments that simply said ³no publication/disclosure absent a court order² without distinguishing b/w whether the impetus for the disclosure was an external third-party request or the P/P Provider¹s own desire to disclose/publish (e.g., the 10,000+ ³Respect our Privacy² comments).
Thanks all!
TW.
From: Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:06 AM To: Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com> <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com> ; Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com> <mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com> ; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Whoops, I left out Jawala at the bottom, who should go in bucket two. Sorry.
From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:01 AM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I¹ve added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks.
From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Tx Mary! Kathy :
Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I¹ll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG¹s preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though ³attached² to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I¹m afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team¹s Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you¹re working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG¹s preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates.
I¹m happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I¹m happy to do that (per Kathy¹s suggestion on the call today) while I¹m doing the current update anyway.
Thanks and cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> > on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com> > Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com <mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>
, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net <mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net> > Cc: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> " <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I¹ve been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I¹ve attached I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that):
· First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG¹s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue.
· Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG¹s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the ³Respect our Privacy² submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly¹s point though that in this paragraph we should note that the ³Respect our Privacy² submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google¹s, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, and didn¹t accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice.
· Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG¹s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that ³verifiable evidence of wrongdoing² is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a ³higher standard.² From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary.
· Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we¹re not sure what to do with.
That¹s how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below:
· Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn¹t touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I¹m pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4¹s work). Not that I¹m not interested in LE just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams.
· In response to Mary¹s email (attached): I agree that I¹m not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we¹re certainly planning to do), then I don¹t see why we¹d need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that¹s fine. I just don¹t see how that helps us get to our final work product.
· Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team¹s role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we do about that? I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I¹m just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier.
Thanks all!
From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> ] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net <mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net> > Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx! > Hi Everyone > > > > First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the > refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so. > > > > The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. > All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are > from. > > ==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever. > > The second is one I¹d like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. > As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the > need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court > process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no > reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the > relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute > resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be > revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are > already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that > way. ==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one¹s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency². (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?) > > > > My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary > for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into > the first or second basket) > >
The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are.
==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead!
> > > My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they > have a warrant, I¹d suggest that we put them in the second category - in > most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of > judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), > requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind > of Annex. ==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category. > > I²ll be having a look at that third category > > > > My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p > provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - > the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either > some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an > approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that > the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are > met, or not. > > ==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy > > Happy to discuss > > > > Holly > > > > On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com> wrote: > > > Hi Mary and All, > Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our > discussion. > > Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been > included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments > we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All > of these comments contain a clear call: > - No one¹s personal information should be revealed without a court > order, > regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law > enforcement agency. > > Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of > commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which > would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool? > > Best and tx, > Kathy > > : > > Dear all, > > > > Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive > comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for > spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for > the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for > the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) > on PAGE 39. > > > > Apologies again for the inadvertent omission they have been added to > these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were > received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I¹ll update > the Sub Team wiki page accordingly. > > > > Thanks and cheers > > Mary > > > Mary Wong > > Senior Policy Director > > Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) > > Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 > > Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> > > > > > > From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org > <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> > on behalf of Mary Wong > <mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> > > Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 > To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com > <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com> >, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org > <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> " <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org > <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > > Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan > > > > Hello Todd and everyone, > > > > Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list! > > > Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I > apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of > comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting > the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am > very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes > WG members¹ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits > don¹t replace WG members¹ reading the comments themselves if possible. > At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as > thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our > efforts and a WG¹s/Sub Team¹s eagle eyes is the best arrangement. > > > > Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address > specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the > online template responses that do the same. The Word document is > therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or > the full WG, as appropriate). I¹ve taken a quick look through my > documents/collected comments and don¹t believe I have missed out any > others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word > documents I¹ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure. > > > > On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd¹s suggested approach > seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves > would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups > to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd¹s initial sweep, > and in doing so also note any comments that didn¹t address either so > that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or > considered by the full WG (if appropriate). > > > > BTW, Todd, maybe it¹s my machine or more likely that I haven¹t looked > through it in detail, but I¹m not seeing your comments/additions/edits > in the document you circulated . ? > > > > Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance > from staff in any way! > > > > Cheers > > Mary > > > > Mary Wong > > Senior Policy Director > > Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) > > Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 > > Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> > > > > > > > > From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org > <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> > on behalf of "Williams, Todd" > <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com> > > Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 > To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> " > <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > > Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan > > > > Am I the first to try this out? Cool. > > > > As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the > presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was > helpful to illustrate where we¹ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn > might help us decide what we¹ll need to do to get there. Specifically, > I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two > basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I¹d recommend > that we do the same. Here are the two that I¹d propose: > > > > 1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead > argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a > court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. > Presumably this group would present on: > > · How many of these comments were there? > > · Who did they come from? > > · What arguments did they make? > > · What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions > of the Initial Report beyond Annex E? > > 2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P > Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, > subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to > whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be > modified. Presumably this group would present on: > > · How many of these comments were there? > > · Who did they come from? > > · What arguments did they make? > > · What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address > the arguments raised in these comments? > > > > I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it > will help our sub-team ³divide and conquer² the work that we have before > us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I¹m not really sure how > we¹d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A > comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose > and/or publish absent a court order isn¹t arguing for changes to Annex > E; it¹s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether. > > > > With those two buckets in mind, I¹ve taken a first pass through the > comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated > (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to > make sure that they agree with how I¹ve tentatively divided the > comments? Once we¹re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the > next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some > members want to tackle the third ³unclear² category) to start reviewing > the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present > to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other > questions that anybody wants to suggest). > > > > Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of > information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was > compiled? I¹m just curious because I want to make sure that our > sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For > example, I know that Turner¹s comment (available > here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3 > VcnSR7.pdf > <http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnS > R7.pdf> ) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn¹t included in the > attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted > it. J So I want to make sure that there aren¹t other comments on Annex > E that we also ought to be reviewing. > > > > Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody. > > > Todd. > > > > Todd D. Williams > > Counsel > Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. > One CNN Center, 10 North > > Atlanta, Georgia 30303 > P: 404-827-2234 > > F: 404-827-1994 > > todd.williams@turner.com <mailto:todd.williams@turner.com> > > > > · Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E. > > 1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach > of material service terms such as Internet abuse) > > 2) Google > > 3) 1&1 Internet SE > > 4) Access Now > > 5) Endurance Int¹l Group > > 6) Jeff Wheelhouse > > 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service > terms such as net abuse) > > 8) Greg McMullen > > 9) Evelyn Aya Snow > > 10) Ralf Haring > > 11) Liam > > 12) Dr M Klinefelter > > 13) Sam > > 14) Dan M > > 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas > > 16) Not your business > > 17) Simon Kissane > > 18) TS > > 19) Cort Wee > > 20) Alex Xu > > 21) Kenneth Godwin > > 22) Shahed Ahmmed > > 23) Sebastian Broussier > > 24) Andrew Merenbach > > 25) Finn Ellis > > 26) Aaron Holmes > > 27) Michael Ekstrand > > 28) Homer > > 29) Donuts > > 30) Michael Ho > > 31) Key Systems > * Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how > to change the Disclosure Framework. > 1) BC > > 2) MPAA > > 3) ISPCP > > 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge > > 5) INTA > > 6) IACC > > 7) NCSG > > 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas > > 9) Cyberinvasion > > 10) Phil Crooker > > 11) Aaron Myers > > 12) Cui (ADNDRC) > > 13) Mike Fewings > > 14) Name withheld > > 15) Gary Miller > > 16) Byunghoon Choi > > 17) Reid Baker > > 18) Nick O¹Dell > > 19) Time Warner > > 20) RIAA & IFPI > > 21) IPC > > 22) Thomas Smoonlock > > 23) Vanda Scartezini > > 24) Tim Kramer > * Bucket Three: unclear. > 1) Sven Slootweg > > 2) Brendan Conniff > > 3) Marc Schauber > > 4) Aaron Mason > > 5) Kevin Szprychel > > 6) Christopher > > 7) James Ford > > 8) Shantanu Gupta > > 9) Christopher Smith > > 10) Private > > 11) Robert Lukitsh > > 12) Adam Miller > > 13) Charles > > 14) Aaron Dalton > > 15) Stephen Black Wolf > > 16) Ian McNeil > > 17) Adam Creighton > > 18) Arthur Zonnenberg > > 19) Anand S. > > 20) Lucas Stadler > > 21) Alan > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list > Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 > <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3> > > _______________________________________________ > Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list > Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 > <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3> >
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I’m having a hard time locating the latest document. Do we have all the “bucket” comments in one document yet? If so, can someone circulate it? Thanks! From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 9:02 AM To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi Todd, yes, certainly – thank you! Actually, my second suggestion was really meant to have us just include a description of the 4 categories (buckets) somewhere in the document, preferably early on. I agree that any conclusion about the petition comments shouldn’t be included unless the Sub Team has agreed on it. As has been the case elsewhere, it may also be possible to “square bracket” or otherwise highlight the options/differences under consideration, should that be a more appropriate alternative before tomorrow. Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 11:54 To: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks Mary. To your last point: I think the question of whether the 10,042 signatures from the Save Domain Privacy petition support or oppose the basic premise of Annex E is what we’re debating. So no, we shouldn’t use that sentence until we’ve decided that point. I think we’ve still got some good emails going on these open questions. But we shouldn’t hold up your sending out the agenda. Could you send out the agenda noting that our sub-team will be presenting, but then circulate our final document later once it’s done (but before tomorrow morning obviously)? From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Mary Wong Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 11:38 AM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Dear all, As I’m preparing to send out the agenda for the WG call tomorrow, along with associated documents, I’m trying to consolidate Kathy’s edited document with Sara’s review that wasn’t in Kathy’s version. I also thought to offer the following suggested edit to the language around “verifiable evidence” for your consideration: "The sub-team is working to better understand the meaning of “verifiable evidence of wrongdoing” and whether these commenters intended for this wording to seek a different or more specific standard for revealdisclosure, namelysuch as a court order in which the court “verifies” the abuse or infringement alleged with a specific judicial finding, or alternatively, whether the commenters seek a higher standard of evidence and proof in Annex E (which isdoes not currently specify what is a “verifiable evidence” standard) before disclosure. In this regard the sub-team notes that many signatories to the petition also added specific comments that may refer to this standard. These comments are currently under review." The other suggestion I had was to reorganize the document slightly, to make it clearer what the “buckets” are. In this regard, I suggest moving up the following summary from Sara to where Kathy’s insertions began (after the specific suggestions for Annex E and before Darcy’s additions): "Our sub-team also reviewed and analyzed 39 comments – including one with 10,000+ signatures from the Respect Our Privacy petition and one with 10,042 signatures from the Save Domain Privacy petition – that oppose the basic premise of Annex E. The comments fell into 1 or 4 categories: Category 1 - No disclosure/publication ever. Category 2 - No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. Category 3 - No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP) Category 4 - No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse." Please let me know if you have any comments or objections to the above. Thank you! Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 10:13 To: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>>, Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks Kathy. My thoughts on the attached: · My only point on the “contested vs. uncontested” language was to distinguish those suggested changes to Annex E for which we received comments on both sides of a question vs. those suggested changes for which we did not. Mainly it was just to distinguish the final two paragraphs conceptually. But your changes serve that same purpose well. · I don’t understand why we would include “while seeking significantly higher standards for disclosure and options to disclosure” in the third paragraph. We get to what changes the various comments suggested (including which comments asked for higher disclosure standards, and which asked for lower) later in the document. That third paragraph is just noting which comments supported certain sections of Annex E. Plus I’m not sure that all of the comments mentioned in that third paragraph did in fact seek “significantly higher standards for disclosure.” · Isn’t the analysis of the 11,000 comments from Respect our Privacy contained in Sara and Holly’s section (see attached)? Why would we reference them twice? · Darcy’s analysis of the “miscellaneous” bucket looks great. Many thanks Darcy – in many ways I think you took the most difficult part, because sometimes it’s hard to make sense of how exactly those comments were relevant! Finally: for the reasons I’ve already outlined in the attached email, I don’t understand why we would say that the process outlined in Annex E “is not currently a verifiable evidence standard.” As I mentioned before, the "evidence" that Annex E requires, as outlined in Sections II(A), (B), and (C), is extensive. So I don’t see any argument why Annex E wouldn’t meet the “evidence” part of “verifiable evidence.” So I think what we’re really trying to interpret is “verifiable.” And Kathy in the attached has offered the interpretation that “verifiable” means “a court order in which the court ‘verifies’ the abuse or infringement alleged with a specific judicial finding.” But if that was the correct interpretation, wouldn’t the word be “verified” instead of “verifiable”? If a court has issued an order, then it has already done the verifying. Rather, I think the basic plain meaning of “verifiable” – and hence the meaning that we should assume the 10,000+ supporters signed on to – is simply “able to be checked or proved.” So it seems much simpler to read “verifiable” to support the portions of Sections III(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E that give P/P Providers the ability to verify the evidence submitted by a Requester by notifying the P/P Customer of the complaint, reviewing the P/P Customer’s response, and then responding to the Requester with either disclosure or its reasons for refusing to disclose – which reasons may come from either the Customer under Section III(C)(ii), or from the P/P Provider’s own investigation under Section III(C)(iii). In other words, the most plausible reading of “verifiable” is that it simply means that it is not enough for the Requester to provide any evidence and then disclosure automatically follows. Rather, the evidence must be capable of being verified. Which is what Section III provides. From: Mary Wong [mailto:mary.wong@icann.org] Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 7:08 PM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks everyone, that is a lot of work and a document that will clearly help advance the WG’s progress quite a bit! Kathy – can I confirm that the document you edited is Darcy’s update to Todd’s last version, and so does not include what was added/sent by Sara? I’m trying to keep all the drafts clear and ordered, and that’s what it looks like to me. If that’s the case, I will add Sara’s report to Kathy’s document (unless there are further changes between now and the WG call on Tuesday). I’ll then upload the consolidated draft document and have that ready for the WG at the Tuesday meeting. All – it seems to me that the question as to where the comments relating to “verifiable evidence” should fit is a question that you may wish to bring back to the WG on Tuesday, if there is still no agreement amongst yourselves by then. Finally – two minor suggested changes, both to do with numbers: first, I’d suggest that instead of saying 10,042 comments came with the Save Domain Privacy petition we should say that the petition had 10,042 signatories. Secondly, I suggest adding the word “approximately” to the 11,000 Respect Your Privacy comments. I hope this helps, and thank you all again. Following the WG call on Tuesday, please let me know how you would like to proceed and if there is a need for the Sub Team to get together for a call to discuss its final recommendations to the WG (due in about 2-3 weeks from this Tuesday, according to the current WG Work Plan). Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>> Date: Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 18:40 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi Todd and All, Nice job! I reviewed the entire document and attached is my crack at our summary. I think it includes everyone additions and edits to date (but please check!). I've lost track of who drafted what sections, but I think we are moving in the right direction. Some really good work has been done. I made one small change and two bigger ones and few general edits. The small change is removing the reference to contested and uncontested edits since I am not sure what an uncontested edit and whether commenters would have contested it if they knew what the proposed edit would be. (Unfortunately, since our "Reply Comment" period was removed by ICANN, we don't have this important reply time to review others edits and support or contest them.). I also added in two short paragraphs. The first one describes the Save Domains Privacy comments, the petition language, and the discussion now in place in our sub-team over the meaning of these comments. Perhaps others in the WG can help us shed light on the questions being raised in our sub-team. The second paragraph summarizes the 11,000 Respect Our Privacy comments. They told us that "No one's personal information should be revealed without a court order," and of course, we should reflect them in our summary. On my machine, my redlines appear in red, and the prior editor's redlines (for the paragraphs at the end starting "Finally, our sub-team reviewed and analyzed 21 miscellaneous comments...") appear in grey. I hope these redlines are clear for you too. Best and enjoy the rest of the weekend, Kathy : Kathy: Attached is my first crack at our portion of the summary (on the Bucket Two comments). Let me know if you have any suggested edits, additions, subtractions, etc. Also, I’ve copied the entire sub-team mailing list on this email, for two reasons: 1) So that there is a transparent public record of any back-and-forth red-lining of the document that we may do; and 2) So that Sara and Holly for Bucket One, and Darcy for our miscellaneous bucket, can see what I envision for our summary report to the WG. If you all want to add your summaries to this one to make it consistent in terms of formatting, etc., feel free. I had one thought Sara and Holly for Bucket One (which came to me as I was conceptually dividing our Bucket Two comments into general support, specific support, suggested changes by addition, suggested edits uncontested, suggested edits contested): it may be helpful for the WG if we divide our Bucket One comments into categories along a spectrum. As I envision it (in order along the spectrum): 1) No disclosure/publication ever. 2) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. I would put the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments here. 3) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP). E.g., I think the Google comment would go here. 4) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse. E.g., I think the ICA and EasyDNS comments would go here. For the WG’s sake, we may also want to distinguish between those Bucket One comments that couched their discussion of disclosure/publication in terms of what P/P Providers ought to be required to do (or not required to do) in response to external third-party disclosure requests such as from IP owners or LEA (e.g., the Google and Key Systems comments) vs. those Bucket One comments that simply said “no publication/disclosure absent a court order” without distinguishing b/w whether the impetus for the disclosure was an external third-party request or the P/P Provider’s own desire to disclose/publish (e.g., the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments). Thanks all! TW. From: Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:06 AM To: Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com><mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>; Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com><mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Whoops, I left out Jawala at the bottom, who should go in bucket two. Sorry. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:01 AM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I’ve added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Tx Mary! Kathy : Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone – this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I’ll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG’s preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though “attached” to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I’m afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team’s Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you’re working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can – with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG’s preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates. I’m happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I’m happy to do that (per Kathy’s suggestion on the call today) while I’m doing the current update anyway. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I’ve been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I’ve attached – I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that): · First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue. · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly’s point though that in this paragraph we should note that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google’s, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, and didn’t accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice. · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that “verifiable evidence of wrongdoing” is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a “higher standard.” From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary. · Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we’re not sure what to do with. That’s how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below: · Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn’t touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I’m pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4’s work). Not that I’m not interested in LE – just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams. · In response to Mary’s email (attached): I agree that I’m not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we’re certainly planning to do), then I don’t see why we’d need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that’s fine. I just don’t see how that helps us get to our final work product. · Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team’s role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that – OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we do about that? – I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I’m just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier. Thanks all! From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx! Hi Everyone First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so. The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from. ==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever. The second is one I’d like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way. ==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency”. (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?) My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket) The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are. ==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead! My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I’d suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex. ==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category. I”ll be having a look at that third category My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not. ==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy Happy to discuss Holly On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:Kathy@kathykleiman.com>> wrote: Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion. Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All of these comments contain a clear call: - No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency. Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool? Best and tx, Kathy : Dear all, Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39. Apologies again for the inadvertent omission – they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I’ll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Hello Todd and everyone, Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list! Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members’ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don’t replace WG members’ reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG’s/Sub Team’s eagle eyes is the best arrangement. Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I’ve taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don’t believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I’ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure. On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd’s suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd’s initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn’t address either – so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate). BTW, Todd, maybe it’s my machine or more likely that I haven’t looked through it in detail, but I’m not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated …. ? Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way! Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Am I the first to try this out? Cool. As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was helpful to illustrate where we’ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn might help us decide what we’ll need to do to get there. Specifically, I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I’d recommend that we do the same. Here are the two that I’d propose: 1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions of the Initial Report beyond Annex E? 2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address the arguments raised in these comments? I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it will help our sub-team “divide and conquer” the work that we have before us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I’m not really sure how we’d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose and/or publish absent a court order isn’t arguing for changes to Annex E; it’s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether. With those two buckets in mind, I’ve taken a first pass through the comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to make sure that they agree with how I’ve tentatively divided the comments? Once we’re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some members want to tackle the third “unclear” category) to start reviewing the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other questions that anybody wants to suggest). Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was compiled? I’m just curious because I want to make sure that our sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For example, I know that Turner’s comment (available here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnSR7.pd...) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn’t included in the attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted it. ☺ So I want to make sure that there aren’t other comments on Annex E that we also ought to be reviewing. Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody. Todd. Todd D. Williams Counsel Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. One CNN Center, 10 North Atlanta, Georgia 30303 P: 404-827-2234 F: 404-827-1994 todd.williams@turner.com<mailto:todd.williams@turner.com> · Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E. 1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach of material service terms such as Internet abuse) 2) Google 3) 1&1 Internet SE 4) Access Now 5) Endurance Int’l Group 6) Jeff Wheelhouse 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service terms such as net abuse) 8) Greg McMullen 9) Evelyn Aya Snow 10) Ralf Haring 11) Liam 12) Dr M Klinefelter 13) Sam 14) Dan M 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas 16) Not your business 17) Simon Kissane 18) TS 19) Cort Wee 20) Alex Xu 21) Kenneth Godwin 22) Shahed Ahmmed 23) Sebastian Broussier 24) Andrew Merenbach 25) Finn Ellis 26) Aaron Holmes 27) Michael Ekstrand 28) Homer 29) Donuts 30) Michael Ho 31) Key Systems * Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework. 1) BC 2) MPAA 3) ISPCP 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge 5) INTA 6) IACC 7) NCSG 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas 9) Cyberinvasion 10) Phil Crooker 11) Aaron Myers 12) Cui (ADNDRC) 13) Mike Fewings 14) Name withheld 15) Gary Miller 16) Byunghoon Choi 17) Reid Baker 18) Nick O’Dell 19) Time Warner 20) RIAA & IFPI 21) IPC 22) Thomas Smoonlock 23) Vanda Scartezini 24) Tim Kramer * Bucket Three: unclear. 1) Sven Slootweg 2) Brendan Conniff 3) Marc Schauber 4) Aaron Mason 5) Kevin Szprychel 6) Christopher 7) James Ford 8) Shantanu Gupta 9) Christopher Smith 10) Private 11) Robert Lukitsh 12) Adam Miller 13) Charles 14) Aaron Dalton 15) Stephen Black Wolf 16) Ian McNeil 17) Adam Creighton 18) Arthur Zonnenberg 19) Anand S. 20) Lucas Stadler 21) Alan _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3
Hi Sara sorry, I haven¹t yet combined your document with Kathy¹s; please feel free to use whichever works best for you (e.g. dropping your document, with edits, into Kathy¹s, or just editing yours and sending it back to me). I attach both for your convenience. If I¹ve missed out a version that came in after these, please, everyone, let me know! Thanks so much! Cheers Mary From: Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com> Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 12:31 To: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Cc: Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
I¹m having a hard time locating the latest document. Do we have all the ³bucket² comments in one document yet? If so, can someone circulate it?
Thanks!
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Mary Wong Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 9:02 AM To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Hi Todd, yes, certainly thank you! Actually, my second suggestion was really meant to have us just include a description of the 4 categories (buckets) somewhere in the document, preferably early on. I agree that any conclusion about the petition comments shouldn¹t be included unless the Sub Team has agreed on it. As has been the case elsewhere, it may also be possible to ³square bracket² or otherwise highlight the options/differences under consideration, should that be a more appropriate alternative before tomorrow.
Cheers Mary
Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org
From: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com> Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 11:54 To: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Thanks Mary. To your last point: I think the question of whether the 10,042 signatures from the Save Domain Privacy petition support or oppose the basic premise of Annex E is what we¹re debating. So no, we shouldn¹t use that sentence until we¹ve decided that point.
I think we¹ve still got some good emails going on these open questions. But we shouldn¹t hold up your sending out the agenda. Could you send out the agenda noting that our sub-team will be presenting, but then circulate our final document later once it¹s done (but before tomorrow morning obviously)?
From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Mary Wong Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 11:38 AM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Dear all,
As I¹m preparing to send out the agenda for the WG call tomorrow, along with associated documents, I¹m trying to consolidate Kathy¹s edited document with Sara¹s review that wasn¹t in Kathy¹s version. I also thought to offer the following suggested edit to the language around ³verifiable evidence² for your consideration:
"The sub-team is working to better understand the meaning of ³verifiable evidence of wrongdoing² and whether these commenters intended for this wording to seek a different or more specific standard for revealdisclosure, namelysuch as a court order in which the court ³verifies² the abuse or infringement alleged with a specific judicial finding, or alternatively, whether the commenters seek a higher standard of evidence and proof in Annex E (which isdoes not currently specify what is a ³verifiable evidence² standard) before disclosure. In this regard the sub-team notes that many signatories to the petition also added specific comments that may refer to this standard. These comments are currently under review."
The other suggestion I had was to reorganize the document slightly, to make it clearer what the ³buckets² are. In this regard, I suggest moving up the following summary from Sara to where Kathy¹s insertions began (after the specific suggestions for Annex E and before Darcy¹s additions):
"Our sub-team also reviewed and analyzed 39 comments including one with 10,000+ signatures from the Respect Our Privacy petition and one with 10,042 signatures from the Save Domain Privacy petition that oppose the basic premise of Annex E. The comments fell into 1 or 4 categories:
Category 1 - No disclosure/publication ever.
Category 2 - No disclosure/publication unless following a court order.
Category 3 - No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP)
Category 4 - No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse."
Please let me know if you have any comments or objections to the above. Thank you!
Cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email: mary.wong@icann.org
From: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com> Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 10:13 To: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org>, Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Thanks Kathy. My thoughts on the attached:
· My only point on the ³contested vs. uncontested² language was to distinguish those suggested changes to Annex E for which we received comments on both sides of a question vs. those suggested changes for which we did not. Mainly it was just to distinguish the final two paragraphs conceptually. But your changes serve that same purpose well.
· I don¹t understand why we would include ³while seeking significantly higher standards for disclosure and options to disclosure² in the third paragraph. We get to what changes the various comments suggested (including which comments asked for higher disclosure standards, and which asked for lower) later in the document. That third paragraph is just noting which comments supported certain sections of Annex E. Plus I¹m not sure that all of the comments mentioned in that third paragraph did in fact seek ³significantly higher standards for disclosure.²
· Isn¹t the analysis of the 11,000 comments from Respect our Privacy contained in Sara and Holly¹s section (see attached)? Why would we reference them twice?
· Darcy¹s analysis of the ³miscellaneous² bucket looks great. Many thanks Darcy in many ways I think you took the most difficult part, because sometimes it¹s hard to make sense of how exactly those comments were relevant!
Finally: for the reasons I¹ve already outlined in the attached email, I don¹t understand why we would say that the process outlined in Annex E ³is not currently a verifiable evidence standard.² As I mentioned before, the "evidence" that Annex E requires, as outlined in Sections II(A), (B), and (C), is extensive. So I don¹t see any argument why Annex E wouldn¹t meet the ³evidence² part of ³verifiable evidence.²
So I think what we¹re really trying to interpret is ³verifiable.² And Kathy in the attached has offered the interpretation that ³verifiable² means ³a court order in which the court verifies¹ the abuse or infringement alleged with a specific judicial finding.² But if that was the correct interpretation, wouldn¹t the word be ³verified² instead of ³verifiable²? If a court has issued an order, then it has already done the verifying.
Rather, I think the basic plain meaning of ³verifiable² and hence the meaning that we should assume the 10,000+ supporters signed on to is simply ³able to be checked or proved.² So it seems much simpler to read ³verifiable² to support the portions of Sections III(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E that give P/P Providers the ability to verify the evidence submitted by a Requester by notifying the P/P Customer of the complaint, reviewing the P/P Customer¹s response, and then responding to the Requester with either disclosure or its reasons for refusing to disclose which reasons may come from either the Customer under Section III(C)(ii), or from the P/P Provider¹s own investigation under Section III(C)(iii). In other words, the most plausible reading of ³verifiable² is that it simply means that it is not enough for the Requester to provide any evidence and then disclosure automatically follows. Rather, the evidence must be capable of being verified. Which is what Section III provides.
From: Mary Wong [mailto:mary.wong@icann.org] Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 7:08 PM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>; Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Thanks everyone, that is a lot of work and a document that will clearly help advance the WG¹s progress quite a bit!
Kathy can I confirm that the document you edited is Darcy¹s update to Todd¹s last version, and so does not include what was added/sent by Sara? I¹m trying to keep all the drafts clear and ordered, and that¹s what it looks like to me. If that¹s the case, I will add Sara¹s report to Kathy¹s document (unless there are further changes between now and the WG call on Tuesday). I¹ll then upload the consolidated draft document and have that ready for the WG at the Tuesday meeting.
All it seems to me that the question as to where the comments relating to ³verifiable evidence² should fit is a question that you may wish to bring back to the WG on Tuesday, if there is still no agreement amongst yourselves by then.
Finally two minor suggested changes, both to do with numbers: first, I¹d suggest that instead of saying 10,042 comments came with the Save Domain Privacy petition we should say that the petition had 10,042 signatories. Secondly, I suggest adding the word ³approximately² to the 11,000 Respect Your Privacy comments.
I hope this helps, and thank you all again. Following the WG call on Tuesday, please let me know how you would like to proceed and if there is a need for the Sub Team to get together for a call to discuss its final recommendations to the WG (due in about 2-3 weeks from this Tuesday, according to the current WG Work Plan).
Thanks and cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email: mary.wong@icann.org
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com> Date: Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 18:40 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Hi Todd and All, Nice job! I reviewed the entire document and attached is my crack at our summary. I think it includes everyone additions and edits to date (but please check!).
I've lost track of who drafted what sections, but I think we are moving in the right direction. Some really good work has been done. I made one small change and two bigger ones and few general edits. The small change is removing the reference to contested and uncontested edits since I am not sure what an uncontested edit and whether commenters would have contested it if they knew what the proposed edit would be. (Unfortunately, since our "Reply Comment" period was removed by ICANN, we don't have this important reply time to review others edits and support or contest them.).
I also added in two short paragraphs. The first one describes the Save Domains Privacy comments, the petition language, and the discussion now in place in our sub-team over the meaning of these comments. Perhaps others in the WG can help us shed light on the questions being raised in our sub-team.
The second paragraph summarizes the 11,000 Respect Our Privacy comments. They told us that "No one's personal information should be revealed without a court order," and of course, we should reflect them in our summary.
On my machine, my redlines appear in red, and the prior editor's redlines (for the paragraphs at the end starting "Finally, our sub-team reviewed and analyzed 21 miscellaneous comments...") appear in grey. I hope these redlines are clear for you too.
Best and enjoy the rest of the weekend, Kathy
:
Kathy:
Attached is my first crack at our portion of the summary (on the Bucket Two comments). Let me know if you have any suggested edits, additions, subtractions, etc.
Also, I¹ve copied the entire sub-team mailing list on this email, for two reasons:
1) So that there is a transparent public record of any back-and-forth red-lining of the document that we may do; and
2) So that Sara and Holly for Bucket One, and Darcy for our miscellaneous bucket, can see what I envision for our summary report to the WG. If you all want to add your summaries to this one to make it consistent in terms of formatting, etc., feel free.
I had one thought Sara and Holly for Bucket One (which came to me as I was conceptually dividing our Bucket Two comments into general support, specific support, suggested changes by addition, suggested edits uncontested, suggested edits contested): it may be helpful for the WG if we divide our Bucket One comments into categories along a spectrum. As I envision it (in order along the spectrum):
1) No disclosure/publication ever.
2) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. I would put the 10,000+ ³Respect our Privacy² comments here.
3) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP). E.g., I think the Google comment would go here.
4) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse. E.g., I think the ICA and EasyDNS comments would go here.
For the WG¹s sake, we may also want to distinguish between those Bucket One comments that couched their discussion of disclosure/publication in terms of what P/P Providers ought to be required to do (or not required to do) in response to external third-party disclosure requests such as from IP owners or LEA (e.g., the Google and Key Systems comments) vs. those Bucket One comments that simply said ³no publication/disclosure absent a court order² without distinguishing b/w whether the impetus for the disclosure was an external third-party request or the P/P Provider¹s own desire to disclose/publish (e.g., the 10,000+ ³Respect our Privacy² comments).
Thanks all!
TW.
From: Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:06 AM To: Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com> <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com> ; Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com> <mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com> ; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Whoops, I left out Jawala at the bottom, who should go in bucket two. Sorry.
From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:01 AM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I¹ve added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks.
From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Tx Mary! Kathy :
Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I¹ll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG¹s preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though ³attached² to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I¹m afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team¹s Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you¹re working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG¹s preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates.
I¹m happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I¹m happy to do that (per Kathy¹s suggestion on the call today) while I¹m doing the current update anyway.
Thanks and cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> > on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com> > Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com <mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com> >, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net <mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net> > Cc: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> " <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
> > Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and > again, I¹ve been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented > last week, which I¹ve attached I assume that what our sub-team will > present next week will look something like that): > > · First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we > want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG¹s > proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can > never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section > will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come > from, what did they argue. > > · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that > argued that the WG¹s proposed accreditation standards should hold that > P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, > subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how > many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they > argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the ³Respect our Privacy² > submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with > Holly¹s point though that in this paragraph we should note that the > ³Respect our Privacy² submissions took a more extreme position than > others (like Google¹s, for example), in that they argued that P/P > Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, and > didn¹t accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a > UDRP for example) could suffice. > > · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that > argued that our WG¹s proposed accreditation standards should hold that > P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court > order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to > whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be > modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general > summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy > that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that > ³verifiable evidence of wrongdoing² is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex > E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each > proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point > format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were > for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments > and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a ³higher > standard.² From my initial review, I think the comments are going to > recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the > summary. > > · Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that > we¹re not sure what to do with. > > > That¹s how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing > the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the > third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit > the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else > wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the > bigger-picture points below: > > · Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about > Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn¹t touch on LE requests, my thought > is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other > sub-teams (I¹m pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team > 4¹s work). Not that I¹m not interested in LE just that we have plenty > of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by > other sub-teams. > > · In response to Mary¹s email (attached): I agree that I¹m not sure > that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the > compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached > Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which > is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point > to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the > rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we¹re certainly planning to > do), then I don¹t see why we¹d need to add columns to the attached Word > doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do > so, that¹s fine. I just don¹t see how that helps us get to our final > work product. > > · Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team¹s role, and the role > of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as > purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the > extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion > that goes one step beyond that OK, this is what the comments said, but > now what do we do about that? I think that has to be left to the > entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I¹m just throwing out > that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier. > > > Thanks all! > > > From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org > <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> > [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org > <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> ] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman > Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM > To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net > <mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net> > > Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - > questions about inclusion > > > Hi All, > I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and > Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by > "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. > Tx! > Hi Everyone > > > > First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the > refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so. > > > > The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. > All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are > from. > > > ==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever. > > The second is one I¹d like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. > As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the > need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court > process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no > reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the > relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute > resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be > revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are > already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that > way. > ==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law > enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our > Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one¹s personal > information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of > whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement > agency². (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual > submission?) > > > > My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary > for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into > the first or second basket) > > > > The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already > required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact > details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is > either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the > challenge will be to work through what those situations are. > > ==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise > of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how > to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by > commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain > Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers > should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable > evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard > to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, > what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If > not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] > Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead! > > > > > > My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they > have a warrant, I¹d suggest that we put them in the second category - in > most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of > judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), > requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind > of Annex. > ==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - > LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense > and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus > Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private > companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE > requests into its own category. > > I²ll be having a look at that third category > > > > My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p > provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - > the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either > some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an > approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that > the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are > met, or not. > > > ==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created > for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy > > Happy to discuss > > > > Holly > > > > On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com> wrote: > > > Hi Mary and All, > Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our > discussion. > > Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been > included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments > we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All > of these comments contain a clear call: > - No one¹s personal information should be revealed without a court > order, > regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law > enforcement agency. > > Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of > commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which > would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool? > > Best and tx, > Kathy > > : > > Dear all, > > > > Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive > comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for > spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for > the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for > the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) > on PAGE 39. > > > > Apologies again for the inadvertent omission they have been added to > these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were > received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I¹ll update > the Sub Team wiki page accordingly. > > > > Thanks and cheers > > Mary > > > Mary Wong > > Senior Policy Director > > Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) > > Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 > > Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> > > > > > > From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org > <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> > on behalf of Mary Wong > <mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> > > Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 > To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com > <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com> >, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org > <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> " <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org > <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > > Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan > > > > Hello Todd and everyone, > > > > Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list! > > > Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I > apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of > comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting > the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am > very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes > WG members¹ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits > don¹t replace WG members¹ reading the comments themselves if possible. > At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as > thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our > efforts and a WG¹s/Sub Team¹s eagle eyes is the best arrangement. > > > > Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address > specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the > online template responses that do the same. The Word document is > therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or > the full WG, as appropriate). I¹ve taken a quick look through my > documents/collected comments and don¹t believe I have missed out any > others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word > documents I¹ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure. > > > > On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd¹s suggested approach > seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves > would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups > to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd¹s initial sweep, > and in doing so also note any comments that didn¹t address either so > that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or > considered by the full WG (if appropriate). > > > > BTW, Todd, maybe it¹s my machine or more likely that I haven¹t looked > through it in detail, but I¹m not seeing your comments/additions/edits > in the document you circulated . ? > > > > Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance > from staff in any way! > > > > Cheers > > Mary > > > > Mary Wong > > Senior Policy Director > > Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) > > Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 > > Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> > > > > > > > > From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org > <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> > on behalf of "Williams, Todd" > <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com> > > Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 > To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> " > <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > > Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan > > > > Am I the first to try this out? Cool. > > > > As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the > presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was > helpful to illustrate where we¹ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn > might help us decide what we¹ll need to do to get there. Specifically, > I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two > basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I¹d recommend > that we do the same. Here are the two that I¹d propose: > > > > 1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead > argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a > court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. > Presumably this group would present on: > > · How many of these comments were there? > > · Who did they come from? > > · What arguments did they make? > > · What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions > of the Initial Report beyond Annex E? > > 2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P > Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, > subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to > whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be > modified. Presumably this group would present on: > > · How many of these comments were there? > > · Who did they come from? > > · What arguments did they make? > > · What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address > the arguments raised in these comments? > > > > I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it > will help our sub-team ³divide and conquer² the work that we have before > us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I¹m not really sure how > we¹d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A > comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose > and/or publish absent a court order isn¹t arguing for changes to Annex > E; it¹s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether. > > > > With those two buckets in mind, I¹ve taken a first pass through the > comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated > (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to > make sure that they agree with how I¹ve tentatively divided the > comments? Once we¹re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the > next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some > members want to tackle the third ³unclear² category) to start reviewing > the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present > to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other > questions that anybody wants to suggest). > > > > Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of > information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was > compiled? I¹m just curious because I want to make sure that our > sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For > example, I know that Turner¹s comment (available > here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3 > VcnSR7.pdf > <http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnS > R7.pdf> ) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn¹t included in the > attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted > it. J So I want to make sure that there aren¹t other comments on Annex > E that we also ought to be reviewing. > > > > Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody. > > > Todd. > > > > Todd D. Williams > > Counsel > Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. > One CNN Center, 10 North > > Atlanta, Georgia 30303 > P: 404-827-2234 > > F: 404-827-1994 > > todd.williams@turner.com <mailto:todd.williams@turner.com> > > > > · Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E. > > 1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach > of material service terms such as Internet abuse) > > 2) Google > > 3) 1&1 Internet SE > > 4) Access Now > > 5) Endurance Int¹l Group > > 6) Jeff Wheelhouse > > 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service > terms such as net abuse) > > 8) Greg McMullen > > 9) Evelyn Aya Snow > > 10) Ralf Haring > > 11) Liam > > 12) Dr M Klinefelter > > 13) Sam > > 14) Dan M > > 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas > > 16) Not your business > > 17) Simon Kissane > > 18) TS > > 19) Cort Wee > > 20) Alex Xu > > 21) Kenneth Godwin > > 22) Shahed Ahmmed > > 23) Sebastian Broussier > > 24) Andrew Merenbach > > 25) Finn Ellis > > 26) Aaron Holmes > > 27) Michael Ekstrand > > 28) Homer > > 29) Donuts > > 30) Michael Ho > > 31) Key Systems > * Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how > to change the Disclosure Framework. > 1) BC > > 2) MPAA > > 3) ISPCP > > 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge > > 5) INTA > > 6) IACC > > 7) NCSG > > 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas > > 9) Cyberinvasion > > 10) Phil Crooker > > 11) Aaron Myers > > 12) Cui (ADNDRC) > > 13) Mike Fewings > > 14) Name withheld > > 15) Gary Miller > > 16) Byunghoon Choi > > 17) Reid Baker > > 18) Nick O¹Dell > > 19) Time Warner > > 20) RIAA & IFPI > > 21) IPC > > 22) Thomas Smoonlock > > 23) Vanda Scartezini > > 24) Tim Kramer > * Bucket Three: unclear. > 1) Sven Slootweg > > 2) Brendan Conniff > > 3) Marc Schauber > > 4) Aaron Mason > > 5) Kevin Szprychel > > 6) Christopher > > 7) James Ford > > 8) Shantanu Gupta > > 9) Christopher Smith > > 10) Private > > 11) Robert Lukitsh > > 12) Adam Miller > > 13) Charles > > 14) Aaron Dalton > > 15) Stephen Black Wolf > > 16) Ian McNeil > > 17) Adam Creighton > > 18) Arthur Zonnenberg > > 19) Anand S. > > 20) Lucas Stadler > > 21) Alan > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list > Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 > <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3> > > _______________________________________________ > Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list > Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 > <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3> > >
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Great, thanks! I will add my comments to the other document. Sara From: Mary Wong Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 9:51 AM To: Sara Bockey, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi Sara – sorry, I haven’t yet combined your document with Kathy’s; please feel free to use whichever works best for you (e.g. dropping your document, with edits, into Kathy’s, or just editing yours and sending it back to me). I attach both for your convenience. If I’ve missed out a version that came in after these, please, everyone, let me know! Thanks so much! Cheers Mary From: Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com<mailto:sbockey@godaddy.com>> Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 12:31 To: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Cc: Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com<mailto:sbockey@godaddy.com>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion I’m having a hard time locating the latest document. Do we have all the “bucket” comments in one document yet? If so, can someone circulate it? Thanks! From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 9:02 AM To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi Todd, yes, certainly – thank you! Actually, my second suggestion was really meant to have us just include a description of the 4 categories (buckets) somewhere in the document, preferably early on. I agree that any conclusion about the petition comments shouldn’t be included unless the Sub Team has agreed on it. As has been the case elsewhere, it may also be possible to “square bracket” or otherwise highlight the options/differences under consideration, should that be a more appropriate alternative before tomorrow. Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 11:54 To: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks Mary. To your last point: I think the question of whether the 10,042 signatures from the Save Domain Privacy petition support or oppose the basic premise of Annex E is what we’re debating. So no, we shouldn’t use that sentence until we’ve decided that point. I think we’ve still got some good emails going on these open questions. But we shouldn’t hold up your sending out the agenda. Could you send out the agenda noting that our sub-team will be presenting, but then circulate our final document later once it’s done (but before tomorrow morning obviously)? From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Mary Wong Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 11:38 AM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Dear all, As I’m preparing to send out the agenda for the WG call tomorrow, along with associated documents, I’m trying to consolidate Kathy’s edited document with Sara’s review that wasn’t in Kathy’s version. I also thought to offer the following suggested edit to the language around “verifiable evidence” for your consideration: "The sub-team is working to better understand the meaning of “verifiable evidence of wrongdoing” and whether these commenters intended for this wording to seek a different or more specific standard for revealdisclosure, namelysuch as a court order in which the court “verifies” the abuse or infringement alleged with a specific judicial finding, or alternatively, whether the commenters seek a higher standard of evidence and proof in Annex E (which isdoes not currently specify what is a “verifiable evidence” standard) before disclosure. In this regard the sub-team notes that many signatories to the petition also added specific comments that may refer to this standard. These comments are currently under review." The other suggestion I had was to reorganize the document slightly, to make it clearer what the “buckets” are. In this regard, I suggest moving up the following summary from Sara to where Kathy’s insertions began (after the specific suggestions for Annex E and before Darcy’s additions): "Our sub-team also reviewed and analyzed 39 comments – including one with 10,000+ signatures from the Respect Our Privacy petition and one with 10,042 signatures from the Save Domain Privacy petition – that oppose the basic premise of Annex E. The comments fell into 1 or 4 categories: Category 1 - No disclosure/publication ever. Category 2 - No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. Category 3 - No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP) Category 4 - No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse." Please let me know if you have any comments or objections to the above. Thank you! Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 10:13 To: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>>, Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks Kathy. My thoughts on the attached: · My only point on the “contested vs. uncontested” language was to distinguish those suggested changes to Annex E for which we received comments on both sides of a question vs. those suggested changes for which we did not. Mainly it was just to distinguish the final two paragraphs conceptually. But your changes serve that same purpose well. · I don’t understand why we would include “while seeking significantly higher standards for disclosure and options to disclosure” in the third paragraph. We get to what changes the various comments suggested (including which comments asked for higher disclosure standards, and which asked for lower) later in the document. That third paragraph is just noting which comments supported certain sections of Annex E. Plus I’m not sure that all of the comments mentioned in that third paragraph did in fact seek “significantly higher standards for disclosure.” · Isn’t the analysis of the 11,000 comments from Respect our Privacy contained in Sara and Holly’s section (see attached)? Why would we reference them twice? · Darcy’s analysis of the “miscellaneous” bucket looks great. Many thanks Darcy – in many ways I think you took the most difficult part, because sometimes it’s hard to make sense of how exactly those comments were relevant! Finally: for the reasons I’ve already outlined in the attached email, I don’t understand why we would say that the process outlined in Annex E “is not currently a verifiable evidence standard.” As I mentioned before, the "evidence" that Annex E requires, as outlined in Sections II(A), (B), and (C), is extensive. So I don’t see any argument why Annex E wouldn’t meet the “evidence” part of “verifiable evidence.” So I think what we’re really trying to interpret is “verifiable.” And Kathy in the attached has offered the interpretation that “verifiable” means “a court order in which the court ‘verifies’ the abuse or infringement alleged with a specific judicial finding.” But if that was the correct interpretation, wouldn’t the word be “verified” instead of “verifiable”? If a court has issued an order, then it has already done the verifying. Rather, I think the basic plain meaning of “verifiable” – and hence the meaning that we should assume the 10,000+ supporters signed on to – is simply “able to be checked or proved.” So it seems much simpler to read “verifiable” to support the portions of Sections III(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E that give P/P Providers the ability to verify the evidence submitted by a Requester by notifying the P/P Customer of the complaint, reviewing the P/P Customer’s response, and then responding to the Requester with either disclosure or its reasons for refusing to disclose – which reasons may come from either the Customer under Section III(C)(ii), or from the P/P Provider’s own investigation under Section III(C)(iii). In other words, the most plausible reading of “verifiable” is that it simply means that it is not enough for the Requester to provide any evidence and then disclosure automatically follows. Rather, the evidence must be capable of being verified. Which is what Section III provides. From: Mary Wong [mailto:mary.wong@icann.org] Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 7:08 PM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks everyone, that is a lot of work and a document that will clearly help advance the WG’s progress quite a bit! Kathy – can I confirm that the document you edited is Darcy’s update to Todd’s last version, and so does not include what was added/sent by Sara? I’m trying to keep all the drafts clear and ordered, and that’s what it looks like to me. If that’s the case, I will add Sara’s report to Kathy’s document (unless there are further changes between now and the WG call on Tuesday). I’ll then upload the consolidated draft document and have that ready for the WG at the Tuesday meeting. All – it seems to me that the question as to where the comments relating to “verifiable evidence” should fit is a question that you may wish to bring back to the WG on Tuesday, if there is still no agreement amongst yourselves by then. Finally – two minor suggested changes, both to do with numbers: first, I’d suggest that instead of saying 10,042 comments came with the Save Domain Privacy petition we should say that the petition had 10,042 signatories. Secondly, I suggest adding the word “approximately” to the 11,000 Respect Your Privacy comments. I hope this helps, and thank you all again. Following the WG call on Tuesday, please let me know how you would like to proceed and if there is a need for the Sub Team to get together for a call to discuss its final recommendations to the WG (due in about 2-3 weeks from this Tuesday, according to the current WG Work Plan). Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>> Date: Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 18:40 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi Todd and All, Nice job! I reviewed the entire document and attached is my crack at our summary. I think it includes everyone additions and edits to date (but please check!). I've lost track of who drafted what sections, but I think we are moving in the right direction. Some really good work has been done. I made one small change and two bigger ones and few general edits. The small change is removing the reference to contested and uncontested edits since I am not sure what an uncontested edit and whether commenters would have contested it if they knew what the proposed edit would be. (Unfortunately, since our "Reply Comment" period was removed by ICANN, we don't have this important reply time to review others edits and support or contest them.). I also added in two short paragraphs. The first one describes the Save Domains Privacy comments, the petition language, and the discussion now in place in our sub-team over the meaning of these comments. Perhaps others in the WG can help us shed light on the questions being raised in our sub-team. The second paragraph summarizes the 11,000 Respect Our Privacy comments. They told us that "No one's personal information should be revealed without a court order," and of course, we should reflect them in our summary. On my machine, my redlines appear in red, and the prior editor's redlines (for the paragraphs at the end starting "Finally, our sub-team reviewed and analyzed 21 miscellaneous comments...") appear in grey. I hope these redlines are clear for you too. Best and enjoy the rest of the weekend, Kathy : Kathy: Attached is my first crack at our portion of the summary (on the Bucket Two comments). Let me know if you have any suggested edits, additions, subtractions, etc. Also, I’ve copied the entire sub-team mailing list on this email, for two reasons: 1) So that there is a transparent public record of any back-and-forth red-lining of the document that we may do; and 2) So that Sara and Holly for Bucket One, and Darcy for our miscellaneous bucket, can see what I envision for our summary report to the WG. If you all want to add your summaries to this one to make it consistent in terms of formatting, etc., feel free. I had one thought Sara and Holly for Bucket One (which came to me as I was conceptually dividing our Bucket Two comments into general support, specific support, suggested changes by addition, suggested edits uncontested, suggested edits contested): it may be helpful for the WG if we divide our Bucket One comments into categories along a spectrum. As I envision it (in order along the spectrum): 1) No disclosure/publication ever. 2) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. I would put the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments here. 3) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP). E.g., I think the Google comment would go here. 4) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse. E.g., I think the ICA and EasyDNS comments would go here. For the WG’s sake, we may also want to distinguish between those Bucket One comments that couched their discussion of disclosure/publication in terms of what P/P Providers ought to be required to do (or not required to do) in response to external third-party disclosure requests such as from IP owners or LEA (e.g., the Google and Key Systems comments) vs. those Bucket One comments that simply said “no publication/disclosure absent a court order” without distinguishing b/w whether the impetus for the disclosure was an external third-party request or the P/P Provider’s own desire to disclose/publish (e.g., the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments). Thanks all! TW. From: Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:06 AM To: Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com><mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>; Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com><mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Whoops, I left out Jawala at the bottom, who should go in bucket two. Sorry. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:01 AM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I’ve added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Tx Mary! Kathy : Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone – this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I’ll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG’s preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though “attached” to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I’m afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team’s Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you’re working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can – with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG’s preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates. I’m happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I’m happy to do that (per Kathy’s suggestion on the call today) while I’m doing the current update anyway. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I’ve been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I’ve attached – I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that): · First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue. · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly’s point though that in this paragraph we should note that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google’s, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, and didn’t accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice. · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that “verifiable evidence of wrongdoing” is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a “higher standard.” From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary. · Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we’re not sure what to do with. That’s how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below: · Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn’t touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I’m pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4’s work). Not that I’m not interested in LE – just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams. · In response to Mary’s email (attached): I agree that I’m not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we’re certainly planning to do), then I don’t see why we’d need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that’s fine. I just don’t see how that helps us get to our final work product. · Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team’s role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that – OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we do about that? – I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I’m just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier. Thanks all! From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx! Hi Everyone First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so. The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from. ==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever. The second is one I’d like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way. ==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency”. (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?) My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket) The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are. ==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead! My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I’d suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex. ==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category. I”ll be having a look at that third category My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not. ==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy Happy to discuss Holly On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:Kathy@kathykleiman.com>> wrote: Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion. Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All of these comments contain a clear call: - No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency. Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool? Best and tx, Kathy : Dear all, Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39. Apologies again for the inadvertent omission – they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I’ll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Hello Todd and everyone, Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list! Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members’ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don’t replace WG members’ reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG’s/Sub Team’s eagle eyes is the best arrangement. Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I’ve taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don’t believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I’ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure. On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd’s suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd’s initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn’t address either – so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate). BTW, Todd, maybe it’s my machine or more likely that I haven’t looked through it in detail, but I’m not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated …. ? Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way! Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Am I the first to try this out? Cool. As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was helpful to illustrate where we’ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn might help us decide what we’ll need to do to get there. Specifically, I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I’d recommend that we do the same. Here are the two that I’d propose: 1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions of the Initial Report beyond Annex E? 2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address the arguments raised in these comments? I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it will help our sub-team “divide and conquer” the work that we have before us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I’m not really sure how we’d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose and/or publish absent a court order isn’t arguing for changes to Annex E; it’s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether. With those two buckets in mind, I’ve taken a first pass through the comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to make sure that they agree with how I’ve tentatively divided the comments? Once we’re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some members want to tackle the third “unclear” category) to start reviewing the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other questions that anybody wants to suggest). Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was compiled? I’m just curious because I want to make sure that our sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For example, I know that Turner’s comment (available here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnSR7.pd...) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn’t included in the attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted it. ☺ So I want to make sure that there aren’t other comments on Annex E that we also ought to be reviewing. Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody. Todd. Todd D. Williams Counsel Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. One CNN Center, 10 North Atlanta, Georgia 30303 P: 404-827-2234 F: 404-827-1994 todd.williams@turner.com<mailto:todd.williams@turner.com> · Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E. 1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach of material service terms such as Internet abuse) 2) Google 3) 1&1 Internet SE 4) Access Now 5) Endurance Int’l Group 6) Jeff Wheelhouse 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service terms such as net abuse) 8) Greg McMullen 9) Evelyn Aya Snow 10) Ralf Haring 11) Liam 12) Dr M Klinefelter 13) Sam 14) Dan M 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas 16) Not your business 17) Simon Kissane 18) TS 19) Cort Wee 20) Alex Xu 21) Kenneth Godwin 22) Shahed Ahmmed 23) Sebastian Broussier 24) Andrew Merenbach 25) Finn Ellis 26) Aaron Holmes 27) Michael Ekstrand 28) Homer 29) Donuts 30) Michael Ho 31) Key Systems * Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework. 1) BC 2) MPAA 3) ISPCP 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge 5) INTA 6) IACC 7) NCSG 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas 9) Cyberinvasion 10) Phil Crooker 11) Aaron Myers 12) Cui (ADNDRC) 13) Mike Fewings 14) Name withheld 15) Gary Miller 16) Byunghoon Choi 17) Reid Baker 18) Nick O’Dell 19) Time Warner 20) RIAA & IFPI 21) IPC 22) Thomas Smoonlock 23) Vanda Scartezini 24) Tim Kramer * Bucket Three: unclear. 1) Sven Slootweg 2) Brendan Conniff 3) Marc Schauber 4) Aaron Mason 5) Kevin Szprychel 6) Christopher 7) James Ford 8) Shantanu Gupta 9) Christopher Smith 10) Private 11) Robert Lukitsh 12) Adam Miller 13) Charles 14) Aaron Dalton 15) Stephen Black Wolf 16) Ian McNeil 17) Adam Creighton 18) Arthur Zonnenberg 19) Anand S. 20) Lucas Stadler 21) Alan _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3
Mary, Attached is the summary document that now includes my edits. Since it appears that we are now addressing Save Domain Privacy and Respect Our Privacy in separate paragraphs/sections of this document, I have removed references to both petitions from other sections so that there is no confusion. Thanks, Sara From: Mary Wong Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 9:51 AM To: Sara Bockey, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi Sara – sorry, I haven’t yet combined your document with Kathy’s; please feel free to use whichever works best for you (e.g. dropping your document, with edits, into Kathy’s, or just editing yours and sending it back to me). I attach both for your convenience. If I’ve missed out a version that came in after these, please, everyone, let me know! Thanks so much! Cheers Mary From: Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com<mailto:sbockey@godaddy.com>> Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 12:31 To: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Cc: Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com<mailto:sbockey@godaddy.com>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion I’m having a hard time locating the latest document. Do we have all the “bucket” comments in one document yet? If so, can someone circulate it? Thanks! From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 9:02 AM To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi Todd, yes, certainly – thank you! Actually, my second suggestion was really meant to have us just include a description of the 4 categories (buckets) somewhere in the document, preferably early on. I agree that any conclusion about the petition comments shouldn’t be included unless the Sub Team has agreed on it. As has been the case elsewhere, it may also be possible to “square bracket” or otherwise highlight the options/differences under consideration, should that be a more appropriate alternative before tomorrow. Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 11:54 To: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks Mary. To your last point: I think the question of whether the 10,042 signatures from the Save Domain Privacy petition support or oppose the basic premise of Annex E is what we’re debating. So no, we shouldn’t use that sentence until we’ve decided that point. I think we’ve still got some good emails going on these open questions. But we shouldn’t hold up your sending out the agenda. Could you send out the agenda noting that our sub-team will be presenting, but then circulate our final document later once it’s done (but before tomorrow morning obviously)? From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Mary Wong Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 11:38 AM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Dear all, As I’m preparing to send out the agenda for the WG call tomorrow, along with associated documents, I’m trying to consolidate Kathy’s edited document with Sara’s review that wasn’t in Kathy’s version. I also thought to offer the following suggested edit to the language around “verifiable evidence” for your consideration: "The sub-team is working to better understand the meaning of “verifiable evidence of wrongdoing” and whether these commenters intended for this wording to seek a different or more specific standard for revealdisclosure, namelysuch as a court order in which the court “verifies” the abuse or infringement alleged with a specific judicial finding, or alternatively, whether the commenters seek a higher standard of evidence and proof in Annex E (which isdoes not currently specify what is a “verifiable evidence” standard) before disclosure. In this regard the sub-team notes that many signatories to the petition also added specific comments that may refer to this standard. These comments are currently under review." The other suggestion I had was to reorganize the document slightly, to make it clearer what the “buckets” are. In this regard, I suggest moving up the following summary from Sara to where Kathy’s insertions began (after the specific suggestions for Annex E and before Darcy’s additions): "Our sub-team also reviewed and analyzed 39 comments – including one with 10,000+ signatures from the Respect Our Privacy petition and one with 10,042 signatures from the Save Domain Privacy petition – that oppose the basic premise of Annex E. The comments fell into 1 or 4 categories: Category 1 - No disclosure/publication ever. Category 2 - No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. Category 3 - No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP) Category 4 - No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse." Please let me know if you have any comments or objections to the above. Thank you! Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 10:13 To: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>>, Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks Kathy. My thoughts on the attached: · My only point on the “contested vs. uncontested” language was to distinguish those suggested changes to Annex E for which we received comments on both sides of a question vs. those suggested changes for which we did not. Mainly it was just to distinguish the final two paragraphs conceptually. But your changes serve that same purpose well. · I don’t understand why we would include “while seeking significantly higher standards for disclosure and options to disclosure” in the third paragraph. We get to what changes the various comments suggested (including which comments asked for higher disclosure standards, and which asked for lower) later in the document. That third paragraph is just noting which comments supported certain sections of Annex E. Plus I’m not sure that all of the comments mentioned in that third paragraph did in fact seek “significantly higher standards for disclosure.” · Isn’t the analysis of the 11,000 comments from Respect our Privacy contained in Sara and Holly’s section (see attached)? Why would we reference them twice? · Darcy’s analysis of the “miscellaneous” bucket looks great. Many thanks Darcy – in many ways I think you took the most difficult part, because sometimes it’s hard to make sense of how exactly those comments were relevant! Finally: for the reasons I’ve already outlined in the attached email, I don’t understand why we would say that the process outlined in Annex E “is not currently a verifiable evidence standard.” As I mentioned before, the "evidence" that Annex E requires, as outlined in Sections II(A), (B), and (C), is extensive. So I don’t see any argument why Annex E wouldn’t meet the “evidence” part of “verifiable evidence.” So I think what we’re really trying to interpret is “verifiable.” And Kathy in the attached has offered the interpretation that “verifiable” means “a court order in which the court ‘verifies’ the abuse or infringement alleged with a specific judicial finding.” But if that was the correct interpretation, wouldn’t the word be “verified” instead of “verifiable”? If a court has issued an order, then it has already done the verifying. Rather, I think the basic plain meaning of “verifiable” – and hence the meaning that we should assume the 10,000+ supporters signed on to – is simply “able to be checked or proved.” So it seems much simpler to read “verifiable” to support the portions of Sections III(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E that give P/P Providers the ability to verify the evidence submitted by a Requester by notifying the P/P Customer of the complaint, reviewing the P/P Customer’s response, and then responding to the Requester with either disclosure or its reasons for refusing to disclose – which reasons may come from either the Customer under Section III(C)(ii), or from the P/P Provider’s own investigation under Section III(C)(iii). In other words, the most plausible reading of “verifiable” is that it simply means that it is not enough for the Requester to provide any evidence and then disclosure automatically follows. Rather, the evidence must be capable of being verified. Which is what Section III provides. From: Mary Wong [mailto:mary.wong@icann.org] Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 7:08 PM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks everyone, that is a lot of work and a document that will clearly help advance the WG’s progress quite a bit! Kathy – can I confirm that the document you edited is Darcy’s update to Todd’s last version, and so does not include what was added/sent by Sara? I’m trying to keep all the drafts clear and ordered, and that’s what it looks like to me. If that’s the case, I will add Sara’s report to Kathy’s document (unless there are further changes between now and the WG call on Tuesday). I’ll then upload the consolidated draft document and have that ready for the WG at the Tuesday meeting. All – it seems to me that the question as to where the comments relating to “verifiable evidence” should fit is a question that you may wish to bring back to the WG on Tuesday, if there is still no agreement amongst yourselves by then. Finally – two minor suggested changes, both to do with numbers: first, I’d suggest that instead of saying 10,042 comments came with the Save Domain Privacy petition we should say that the petition had 10,042 signatories. Secondly, I suggest adding the word “approximately” to the 11,000 Respect Your Privacy comments. I hope this helps, and thank you all again. Following the WG call on Tuesday, please let me know how you would like to proceed and if there is a need for the Sub Team to get together for a call to discuss its final recommendations to the WG (due in about 2-3 weeks from this Tuesday, according to the current WG Work Plan). Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>> Date: Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 18:40 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi Todd and All, Nice job! I reviewed the entire document and attached is my crack at our summary. I think it includes everyone additions and edits to date (but please check!). I've lost track of who drafted what sections, but I think we are moving in the right direction. Some really good work has been done. I made one small change and two bigger ones and few general edits. The small change is removing the reference to contested and uncontested edits since I am not sure what an uncontested edit and whether commenters would have contested it if they knew what the proposed edit would be. (Unfortunately, since our "Reply Comment" period was removed by ICANN, we don't have this important reply time to review others edits and support or contest them.). I also added in two short paragraphs. The first one describes the Save Domains Privacy comments, the petition language, and the discussion now in place in our sub-team over the meaning of these comments. Perhaps others in the WG can help us shed light on the questions being raised in our sub-team. The second paragraph summarizes the 11,000 Respect Our Privacy comments. They told us that "No one's personal information should be revealed without a court order," and of course, we should reflect them in our summary. On my machine, my redlines appear in red, and the prior editor's redlines (for the paragraphs at the end starting "Finally, our sub-team reviewed and analyzed 21 miscellaneous comments...") appear in grey. I hope these redlines are clear for you too. Best and enjoy the rest of the weekend, Kathy : Kathy: Attached is my first crack at our portion of the summary (on the Bucket Two comments). Let me know if you have any suggested edits, additions, subtractions, etc. Also, I’ve copied the entire sub-team mailing list on this email, for two reasons: 1) So that there is a transparent public record of any back-and-forth red-lining of the document that we may do; and 2) So that Sara and Holly for Bucket One, and Darcy for our miscellaneous bucket, can see what I envision for our summary report to the WG. If you all want to add your summaries to this one to make it consistent in terms of formatting, etc., feel free. I had one thought Sara and Holly for Bucket One (which came to me as I was conceptually dividing our Bucket Two comments into general support, specific support, suggested changes by addition, suggested edits uncontested, suggested edits contested): it may be helpful for the WG if we divide our Bucket One comments into categories along a spectrum. As I envision it (in order along the spectrum): 1) No disclosure/publication ever. 2) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. I would put the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments here. 3) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP). E.g., I think the Google comment would go here. 4) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse. E.g., I think the ICA and EasyDNS comments would go here. For the WG’s sake, we may also want to distinguish between those Bucket One comments that couched their discussion of disclosure/publication in terms of what P/P Providers ought to be required to do (or not required to do) in response to external third-party disclosure requests such as from IP owners or LEA (e.g., the Google and Key Systems comments) vs. those Bucket One comments that simply said “no publication/disclosure absent a court order” without distinguishing b/w whether the impetus for the disclosure was an external third-party request or the P/P Provider’s own desire to disclose/publish (e.g., the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments). Thanks all! TW. From: Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:06 AM To: Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com><mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>; Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com><mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Whoops, I left out Jawala at the bottom, who should go in bucket two. Sorry. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:01 AM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I’ve added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Tx Mary! Kathy : Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone – this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I’ll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG’s preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though “attached” to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I’m afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team’s Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you’re working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can – with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG’s preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates. I’m happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I’m happy to do that (per Kathy’s suggestion on the call today) while I’m doing the current update anyway. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I’ve been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I’ve attached – I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that): · First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue. · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly’s point though that in this paragraph we should note that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google’s, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, and didn’t accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice. · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that “verifiable evidence of wrongdoing” is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a “higher standard.” From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary. · Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we’re not sure what to do with. That’s how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below: · Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn’t touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I’m pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4’s work). Not that I’m not interested in LE – just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams. · In response to Mary’s email (attached): I agree that I’m not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we’re certainly planning to do), then I don’t see why we’d need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that’s fine. I just don’t see how that helps us get to our final work product. · Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team’s role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that – OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we do about that? – I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I’m just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier. Thanks all! From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx! Hi Everyone First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so. The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from. ==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever. The second is one I’d like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way. ==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency”. (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?) My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket) The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are. ==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead! My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I’d suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex. ==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category. I”ll be having a look at that third category My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not. ==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy Happy to discuss Holly On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:Kathy@kathykleiman.com>> wrote: Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion. Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All of these comments contain a clear call: - No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency. Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool? Best and tx, Kathy : Dear all, Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39. Apologies again for the inadvertent omission – they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I’ll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Hello Todd and everyone, Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list! Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members’ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don’t replace WG members’ reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG’s/Sub Team’s eagle eyes is the best arrangement. Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I’ve taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don’t believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I’ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure. On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd’s suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd’s initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn’t address either – so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate). BTW, Todd, maybe it’s my machine or more likely that I haven’t looked through it in detail, but I’m not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated …. ? Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way! Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Am I the first to try this out? Cool. As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was helpful to illustrate where we’ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn might help us decide what we’ll need to do to get there. Specifically, I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I’d recommend that we do the same. Here are the two that I’d propose: 1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions of the Initial Report beyond Annex E? 2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address the arguments raised in these comments? I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it will help our sub-team “divide and conquer” the work that we have before us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I’m not really sure how we’d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose and/or publish absent a court order isn’t arguing for changes to Annex E; it’s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether. With those two buckets in mind, I’ve taken a first pass through the comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to make sure that they agree with how I’ve tentatively divided the comments? Once we’re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some members want to tackle the third “unclear” category) to start reviewing the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other questions that anybody wants to suggest). Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was compiled? I’m just curious because I want to make sure that our sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For example, I know that Turner’s comment (available here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnSR7.pd...) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn’t included in the attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted it. ☺ So I want to make sure that there aren’t other comments on Annex E that we also ought to be reviewing. Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody. Todd. Todd D. Williams Counsel Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. One CNN Center, 10 North Atlanta, Georgia 30303 P: 404-827-2234 F: 404-827-1994 todd.williams@turner.com<mailto:todd.williams@turner.com> · Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E. 1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach of material service terms such as Internet abuse) 2) Google 3) 1&1 Internet SE 4) Access Now 5) Endurance Int’l Group 6) Jeff Wheelhouse 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service terms such as net abuse) 8) Greg McMullen 9) Evelyn Aya Snow 10) Ralf Haring 11) Liam 12) Dr M Klinefelter 13) Sam 14) Dan M 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas 16) Not your business 17) Simon Kissane 18) TS 19) Cort Wee 20) Alex Xu 21) Kenneth Godwin 22) Shahed Ahmmed 23) Sebastian Broussier 24) Andrew Merenbach 25) Finn Ellis 26) Aaron Holmes 27) Michael Ekstrand 28) Homer 29) Donuts 30) Michael Ho 31) Key Systems * Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework. 1) BC 2) MPAA 3) ISPCP 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge 5) INTA 6) IACC 7) NCSG 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas 9) Cyberinvasion 10) Phil Crooker 11) Aaron Myers 12) Cui (ADNDRC) 13) Mike Fewings 14) Name withheld 15) Gary Miller 16) Byunghoon Choi 17) Reid Baker 18) Nick O’Dell 19) Time Warner 20) RIAA & IFPI 21) IPC 22) Thomas Smoonlock 23) Vanda Scartezini 24) Tim Kramer * Bucket Three: unclear. 1) Sven Slootweg 2) Brendan Conniff 3) Marc Schauber 4) Aaron Mason 5) Kevin Szprychel 6) Christopher 7) James Ford 8) Shantanu Gupta 9) Christopher Smith 10) Private 11) Robert Lukitsh 12) Adam Miller 13) Charles 14) Aaron Dalton 15) Stephen Black Wolf 16) Ian McNeil 17) Adam Creighton 18) Arthur Zonnenberg 19) Anand S. 20) Lucas Stadler 21) Alan _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3
Thanks, Sara! If it¹s all right with everyone, I¹ll send this version around to the WG, noting that it is still a draft under discussion by the Sub Team and as such there may be further updates on the call tomorrow (bearing in mind that Vicky has indicated she may have some comments tonight). Additionally, I can also note that some of the language in the draft is also still under discussion by the Sub Team, and some of the issues the Sub Team is discussing will be highlighted during the update to the WG. Let me know if you would prefer another approach. Thanks! Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org From: Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com> Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 13:32 To: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Cc: Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Mary,
Attached is the summary document that now includes my edits. Since it appears that we are now addressing Save Domain Privacy and Respect Our Privacy in separate paragraphs/sections of this document, I have removed references to both petitions from other sections so that there is no confusion.
Thanks,
Sara
From: Mary Wong Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 9:51 AM To: Sara Bockey, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Hi Sara sorry, I haven¹t yet combined your document with Kathy¹s; please feel free to use whichever works best for you (e.g. dropping your document, with edits, into Kathy¹s, or just editing yours and sending it back to me). I attach both for your convenience. If I¹ve missed out a version that came in after these, please, everyone, let me know!
Thanks so much!
Cheers Mary
From: Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com> Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 12:31 To: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Cc: Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
I¹m having a hard time locating the latest document. Do we have all the ³bucket² comments in one document yet? If so, can someone circulate it?
Thanks!
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Mary Wong Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 9:02 AM To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Hi Todd, yes, certainly thank you! Actually, my second suggestion was really meant to have us just include a description of the 4 categories (buckets) somewhere in the document, preferably early on. I agree that any conclusion about the petition comments shouldn¹t be included unless the Sub Team has agreed on it. As has been the case elsewhere, it may also be possible to ³square bracket² or otherwise highlight the options/differences under consideration, should that be a more appropriate alternative before tomorrow.
Cheers Mary
Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org
From: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com> Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 11:54 To: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Thanks Mary. To your last point: I think the question of whether the 10,042 signatures from the Save Domain Privacy petition support or oppose the basic premise of Annex E is what we¹re debating. So no, we shouldn¹t use that sentence until we¹ve decided that point.
I think we¹ve still got some good emails going on these open questions. But we shouldn¹t hold up your sending out the agenda. Could you send out the agenda noting that our sub-team will be presenting, but then circulate our final document later once it¹s done (but before tomorrow morning obviously)?
From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Mary Wong Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 11:38 AM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Dear all,
As I¹m preparing to send out the agenda for the WG call tomorrow, along with associated documents, I¹m trying to consolidate Kathy¹s edited document with Sara¹s review that wasn¹t in Kathy¹s version. I also thought to offer the following suggested edit to the language around ³verifiable evidence² for your consideration:
"The sub-team is working to better understand the meaning of ³verifiable evidence of wrongdoing² and whether these commenters intended for this wording to seek a different or more specific standard for revealdisclosure, namelysuch as a court order in which the court ³verifies² the abuse or infringement alleged with a specific judicial finding, or alternatively, whether the commenters seek a higher standard of evidence and proof in Annex E (which isdoes not currently specify what is a ³verifiable evidence² standard) before disclosure. In this regard the sub-team notes that many signatories to the petition also added specific comments that may refer to this standard. These comments are currently under review."
The other suggestion I had was to reorganize the document slightly, to make it clearer what the ³buckets² are. In this regard, I suggest moving up the following summary from Sara to where Kathy¹s insertions began (after the specific suggestions for Annex E and before Darcy¹s additions):
"Our sub-team also reviewed and analyzed 39 comments including one with 10,000+ signatures from the Respect Our Privacy petition and one with 10,042 signatures from the Save Domain Privacy petition that oppose the basic premise of Annex E. The comments fell into 1 or 4 categories:
Category 1 - No disclosure/publication ever.
Category 2 - No disclosure/publication unless following a court order.
Category 3 - No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP)
Category 4 - No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse."
Please let me know if you have any comments or objections to the above. Thank you!
Cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email: mary.wong@icann.org
From: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com> Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 10:13 To: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org>, Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Thanks Kathy. My thoughts on the attached:
· My only point on the ³contested vs. uncontested² language was to distinguish those suggested changes to Annex E for which we received comments on both sides of a question vs. those suggested changes for which we did not. Mainly it was just to distinguish the final two paragraphs conceptually. But your changes serve that same purpose well.
· I don¹t understand why we would include ³while seeking significantly higher standards for disclosure and options to disclosure² in the third paragraph. We get to what changes the various comments suggested (including which comments asked for higher disclosure standards, and which asked for lower) later in the document. That third paragraph is just noting which comments supported certain sections of Annex E. Plus I¹m not sure that all of the comments mentioned in that third paragraph did in fact seek ³significantly higher standards for disclosure.²
· Isn¹t the analysis of the 11,000 comments from Respect our Privacy contained in Sara and Holly¹s section (see attached)? Why would we reference them twice?
· Darcy¹s analysis of the ³miscellaneous² bucket looks great. Many thanks Darcy in many ways I think you took the most difficult part, because sometimes it¹s hard to make sense of how exactly those comments were relevant!
Finally: for the reasons I¹ve already outlined in the attached email, I don¹t understand why we would say that the process outlined in Annex E ³is not currently a verifiable evidence standard.² As I mentioned before, the "evidence" that Annex E requires, as outlined in Sections II(A), (B), and (C), is extensive. So I don¹t see any argument why Annex E wouldn¹t meet the ³evidence² part of ³verifiable evidence.²
So I think what we¹re really trying to interpret is ³verifiable.² And Kathy in the attached has offered the interpretation that ³verifiable² means ³a court order in which the court verifies¹ the abuse or infringement alleged with a specific judicial finding.² But if that was the correct interpretation, wouldn¹t the word be ³verified² instead of ³verifiable²? If a court has issued an order, then it has already done the verifying.
Rather, I think the basic plain meaning of ³verifiable² and hence the meaning that we should assume the 10,000+ supporters signed on to is simply ³able to be checked or proved.² So it seems much simpler to read ³verifiable² to support the portions of Sections III(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E that give P/P Providers the ability to verify the evidence submitted by a Requester by notifying the P/P Customer of the complaint, reviewing the P/P Customer¹s response, and then responding to the Requester with either disclosure or its reasons for refusing to disclose which reasons may come from either the Customer under Section III(C)(ii), or from the P/P Provider¹s own investigation under Section III(C)(iii). In other words, the most plausible reading of ³verifiable² is that it simply means that it is not enough for the Requester to provide any evidence and then disclosure automatically follows. Rather, the evidence must be capable of being verified. Which is what Section III provides.
From: Mary Wong [mailto:mary.wong@icann.org] Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 7:08 PM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>; Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Thanks everyone, that is a lot of work and a document that will clearly help advance the WG¹s progress quite a bit!
Kathy can I confirm that the document you edited is Darcy¹s update to Todd¹s last version, and so does not include what was added/sent by Sara? I¹m trying to keep all the drafts clear and ordered, and that¹s what it looks like to me. If that¹s the case, I will add Sara¹s report to Kathy¹s document (unless there are further changes between now and the WG call on Tuesday). I¹ll then upload the consolidated draft document and have that ready for the WG at the Tuesday meeting.
All it seems to me that the question as to where the comments relating to ³verifiable evidence² should fit is a question that you may wish to bring back to the WG on Tuesday, if there is still no agreement amongst yourselves by then.
Finally two minor suggested changes, both to do with numbers: first, I¹d suggest that instead of saying 10,042 comments came with the Save Domain Privacy petition we should say that the petition had 10,042 signatories. Secondly, I suggest adding the word ³approximately² to the 11,000 Respect Your Privacy comments.
I hope this helps, and thank you all again. Following the WG call on Tuesday, please let me know how you would like to proceed and if there is a need for the Sub Team to get together for a call to discuss its final recommendations to the WG (due in about 2-3 weeks from this Tuesday, according to the current WG Work Plan).
Thanks and cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
Email: mary.wong@icann.org
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com> Date: Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 18:40 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Hi Todd and All, Nice job! I reviewed the entire document and attached is my crack at our summary. I think it includes everyone additions and edits to date (but please check!).
I've lost track of who drafted what sections, but I think we are moving in the right direction. Some really good work has been done. I made one small change and two bigger ones and few general edits. The small change is removing the reference to contested and uncontested edits since I am not sure what an uncontested edit and whether commenters would have contested it if they knew what the proposed edit would be. (Unfortunately, since our "Reply Comment" period was removed by ICANN, we don't have this important reply time to review others edits and support or contest them.).
I also added in two short paragraphs. The first one describes the Save Domains Privacy comments, the petition language, and the discussion now in place in our sub-team over the meaning of these comments. Perhaps others in the WG can help us shed light on the questions being raised in our sub-team.
The second paragraph summarizes the 11,000 Respect Our Privacy comments. They told us that "No one's personal information should be revealed without a court order," and of course, we should reflect them in our summary.
On my machine, my redlines appear in red, and the prior editor's redlines (for the paragraphs at the end starting "Finally, our sub-team reviewed and analyzed 21 miscellaneous comments...") appear in grey. I hope these redlines are clear for you too.
Best and enjoy the rest of the weekend, Kathy
:
Kathy:
Attached is my first crack at our portion of the summary (on the Bucket Two comments). Let me know if you have any suggested edits, additions, subtractions, etc.
Also, I¹ve copied the entire sub-team mailing list on this email, for two reasons:
1) So that there is a transparent public record of any back-and-forth red-lining of the document that we may do; and
2) So that Sara and Holly for Bucket One, and Darcy for our miscellaneous bucket, can see what I envision for our summary report to the WG. If you all want to add your summaries to this one to make it consistent in terms of formatting, etc., feel free.
I had one thought Sara and Holly for Bucket One (which came to me as I was conceptually dividing our Bucket Two comments into general support, specific support, suggested changes by addition, suggested edits uncontested, suggested edits contested): it may be helpful for the WG if we divide our Bucket One comments into categories along a spectrum. As I envision it (in order along the spectrum):
1) No disclosure/publication ever.
2) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. I would put the 10,000+ ³Respect our Privacy² comments here.
3) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP). E.g., I think the Google comment would go here.
4) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse. E.g., I think the ICA and EasyDNS comments would go here.
For the WG¹s sake, we may also want to distinguish between those Bucket One comments that couched their discussion of disclosure/publication in terms of what P/P Providers ought to be required to do (or not required to do) in response to external third-party disclosure requests such as from IP owners or LEA (e.g., the Google and Key Systems comments) vs. those Bucket One comments that simply said ³no publication/disclosure absent a court order² without distinguishing b/w whether the impetus for the disclosure was an external third-party request or the P/P Provider¹s own desire to disclose/publish (e.g., the 10,000+ ³Respect our Privacy² comments).
Thanks all!
TW.
From: Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:06 AM To: Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com> <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com> ; Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com> <mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com> ; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Whoops, I left out Jawala at the bottom, who should go in bucket two. Sorry.
From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:01 AM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I¹ve added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks.
From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Tx Mary! Kathy : > > Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone this is just a note to > follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier > today. I¹ll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool > (Part 1, covering the WG¹s preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to > pick out those additional comments that, though ³attached² to a > different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant > to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I¹m afraid, is that > there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team¹s Review > Tool (i.e. the Word document that you¹re working off of). I will try to > get that to you all as soon as I possibly can with the caveat that as > I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of > the WG¹s preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by > the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates. > > > I¹m happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already > have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an > extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy > comment in their petition, I¹m happy to do that (per Kathy¹s suggestion > on the call today) while I¹m doing the current update anyway. > > > > Thanks and cheers > > Mary > > > > Mary Wong > > Senior Policy Director > > Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) > > Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 > > Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> > > > > > > From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org > <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> > on behalf of "Williams, Todd" > <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com> > > Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 > To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com > <mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com> >, Holly Raiche > <h.raiche@internode.on.net <mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net> > > Cc: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> " > <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > > Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - > questions about inclusion > > > > Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and > again, I¹ve been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented > last week, which I¹ve attached I assume that what our sub-team will > present next week will look something like that): > > · First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we > want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG¹s > proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can > never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section > will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come > from, what did they argue. > > · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that > argued that the WG¹s proposed accreditation standards should hold that > P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, > subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how > many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they > argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the ³Respect our Privacy² > submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with > Holly¹s point though that in this paragraph we should note that the > ³Respect our Privacy² submissions took a more extreme position than > others (like Google¹s, for example), in that they argued that P/P > Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, and > didn¹t accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a > UDRP for example) could suffice. > > · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that > argued that our WG¹s proposed accreditation standards should hold that > P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court > order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to > whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be > modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general > summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy > that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that > ³verifiable evidence of wrongdoing² is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex > E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each > proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point > format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were > for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments > and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a ³higher > standard.² From my initial review, I think the comments are going to > recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the > summary. > > · Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that > we¹re not sure what to do with. > > > That¹s how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing > the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the > third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit > the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else > wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the > bigger-picture points below: > > · Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about > Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn¹t touch on LE requests, my thought > is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other > sub-teams (I¹m pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team > 4¹s work). Not that I¹m not interested in LE just that we have plenty > of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by > other sub-teams. > > · In response to Mary¹s email (attached): I agree that I¹m not sure > that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the > compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached > Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which > is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point > to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the > rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we¹re certainly planning to > do), then I don¹t see why we¹d need to add columns to the attached Word > doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do > so, that¹s fine. I just don¹t see how that helps us get to our final > work product. > > · Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team¹s role, and the role > of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as > purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the > extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion > that goes one step beyond that OK, this is what the comments said, but > now what do we do about that? I think that has to be left to the > entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I¹m just throwing out > that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier. > > > Thanks all! > > > From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org > <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> > [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org > <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> ] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman > Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM > To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net > <mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net> > > Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - > questions about inclusion > > > Hi All, > I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and > Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by > "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. > Tx! > Hi Everyone > > > > First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the > refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so. > > > > The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. > All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are > from. > > > ==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever. > > The second is one I¹d like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. > As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the > need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court > process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no > reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the > relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute > resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be > revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are > already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that > way. > ==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law > enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our > Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one¹s personal > information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of > whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement > agency². (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual > submission?) > > > > My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary > for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into > the first or second basket) > > > > The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already > required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact > details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is > either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the > challenge will be to work through what those situations are. > > ==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise > of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how > to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by > commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain > Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers > should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable > evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard > to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, > what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If > not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] > Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead! > > > > > > My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they > have a warrant, I¹d suggest that we put them in the second category - in > most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of > judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), > requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind > of Annex. > ==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - > LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense > and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus > Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private > companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE > requests into its own category. > > I²ll be having a look at that third category > > > > My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p > provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - > the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either > some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an > approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that > the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are > met, or not. > > > ==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created > for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy > > Happy to discuss > > > > Holly > > > > On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com> wrote: > > > Hi Mary and All, > Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our > discussion. > > Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been > included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments > we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All > of these comments contain a clear call: > - No one¹s personal information should be revealed without a court > order, > regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law > enforcement agency. > > Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of > commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which > would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool? > > Best and tx, > Kathy > > : > > Dear all, > > > > Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive > comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for > spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for > the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for > the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) > on PAGE 39. > > > > Apologies again for the inadvertent omission they have been added to > these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were > received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I¹ll update > the Sub Team wiki page accordingly. > > > > Thanks and cheers > > Mary > > > Mary Wong > > Senior Policy Director > > Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) > > Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 > > Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> > > > > > > From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org > <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> > on behalf of Mary Wong > <mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> > > Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 > To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com > <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com> >, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org > <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> " <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org > <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > > Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan > > > > Hello Todd and everyone, > > > > Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list! > > > Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I > apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of > comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting > the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am > very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes > WG members¹ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits > don¹t replace WG members¹ reading the comments themselves if possible. > At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as > thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our > efforts and a WG¹s/Sub Team¹s eagle eyes is the best arrangement. > > > > Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address > specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the > online template responses that do the same. The Word document is > therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or > the full WG, as appropriate). I¹ve taken a quick look through my > documents/collected comments and don¹t believe I have missed out any > others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word > documents I¹ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure. > > > > On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd¹s suggested approach > seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves > would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups > to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd¹s initial sweep, > and in doing so also note any comments that didn¹t address either so > that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or > considered by the full WG (if appropriate). > > > > BTW, Todd, maybe it¹s my machine or more likely that I haven¹t looked > through it in detail, but I¹m not seeing your comments/additions/edits > in the document you circulated . ? > > > > Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance > from staff in any way! > > > > Cheers > > Mary > > > > Mary Wong > > Senior Policy Director > > Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) > > Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 > > Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> > > > > > > > > From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org > <mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> > on behalf of "Williams, Todd" > <Todd.Williams@turner.com <mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com> > > Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 > To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> " > <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > > Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan > > > > Am I the first to try this out? Cool. > > > > As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the > presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was > helpful to illustrate where we¹ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn > might help us decide what we¹ll need to do to get there. Specifically, > I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two > basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I¹d recommend > that we do the same. Here are the two that I¹d propose: > > > > 1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead > argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a > court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. > Presumably this group would present on: > > · How many of these comments were there? > > · Who did they come from? > > · What arguments did they make? > > · What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions > of the Initial Report beyond Annex E? > > 2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P > Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, > subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to > whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be > modified. Presumably this group would present on: > > · How many of these comments were there? > > · Who did they come from? > > · What arguments did they make? > > · What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address > the arguments raised in these comments? > > > > I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it > will help our sub-team ³divide and conquer² the work that we have before > us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I¹m not really sure how > we¹d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A > comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose > and/or publish absent a court order isn¹t arguing for changes to Annex > E; it¹s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether. > > > > With those two buckets in mind, I¹ve taken a first pass through the > comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated > (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to > make sure that they agree with how I¹ve tentatively divided the > comments? Once we¹re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the > next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some > members want to tackle the third ³unclear² category) to start reviewing > the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present > to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other > questions that anybody wants to suggest). > > > > Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of > information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was > compiled? I¹m just curious because I want to make sure that our > sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For > example, I know that Turner¹s comment (available > here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3 > VcnSR7.pdf > <http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnS > R7.pdf> ) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn¹t included in the > attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted > it. J So I want to make sure that there aren¹t other comments on Annex > E that we also ought to be reviewing. > > > > Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody. > > > Todd. > > > > Todd D. Williams > > Counsel > Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. > One CNN Center, 10 North > > Atlanta, Georgia 30303 > P: 404-827-2234 > > F: 404-827-1994 > > todd.williams@turner.com <mailto:todd.williams@turner.com> > > > > · Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E. > > 1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach > of material service terms such as Internet abuse) > > 2) Google > > 3) 1&1 Internet SE > > 4) Access Now > > 5) Endurance Int¹l Group > > 6) Jeff Wheelhouse > > 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service > terms such as net abuse) > > 8) Greg McMullen > > 9) Evelyn Aya Snow > > 10) Ralf Haring > > 11) Liam > > 12) Dr M Klinefelter > > 13) Sam > > 14) Dan M > > 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas > > 16) Not your business > > 17) Simon Kissane > > 18) TS > > 19) Cort Wee > > 20) Alex Xu > > 21) Kenneth Godwin > > 22) Shahed Ahmmed > > 23) Sebastian Broussier > > 24) Andrew Merenbach > > 25) Finn Ellis > > 26) Aaron Holmes > > 27) Michael Ekstrand > > 28) Homer > > 29) Donuts > > 30) Michael Ho > > 31) Key Systems > * Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how > to change the Disclosure Framework. > 1) BC > > 2) MPAA > > 3) ISPCP > > 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge > > 5) INTA > > 6) IACC > > 7) NCSG > > 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas > > 9) Cyberinvasion > > 10) Phil Crooker > > 11) Aaron Myers > > 12) Cui (ADNDRC) > > 13) Mike Fewings > > 14) Name withheld > > 15) Gary Miller > > 16) Byunghoon Choi > > 17) Reid Baker > > 18) Nick O¹Dell > > 19) Time Warner > > 20) RIAA & IFPI > > 21) IPC > > 22) Thomas Smoonlock > > 23) Vanda Scartezini > > 24) Tim Kramer > * Bucket Three: unclear. > 1) Sven Slootweg > > 2) Brendan Conniff > > 3) Marc Schauber > > 4) Aaron Mason > > 5) Kevin Szprychel > > 6) Christopher > > 7) James Ford > > 8) Shantanu Gupta > > 9) Christopher Smith > > 10) Private > > 11) Robert Lukitsh > > 12) Adam Miller > > 13) Charles > > 14) Aaron Dalton > > 15) Stephen Black Wolf > > 16) Ian McNeil > > 17) Adam Creighton > > 18) Arthur Zonnenberg > > 19) Anand S. > > 20) Lucas Stadler > > 21) Alan > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list > Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 > <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3> > > _______________________________________________ > Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list > Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org <mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 > <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list > Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3
Thanks Mary. No, I'm not putting my name on this. Nobody has responded to the questions that I raised earlier today (see attached). And we still don't have Vicky's comments. Just to reiterate my problems with the attached: * The attached says that our sub-team is debating whether "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" either means court order or "a higher standard of evidence and proof in Annex E (which is not currently a "verifiable evidence" standard) before disclosure." But that is not an accurate representation of our internal debate, as I've outlined in the attached emails. I'm fine telling the WG that we can't decide how to interpret "verifiable evidence" (though I still don't understand how to interpret "verifiable evidence" to mean "court order"). But if we do so, we at least have to accurately reflect what the competing arguments are. * I don't understand the statement that "the sub-team noted but has not yet evaluated the 11,000 comments received from commenters arriving from the Respect Our Privacy website. These commenters, each individually, urged a rejection of Annex E in favor of due process as defined by judicial process" and that "The sub-team is continuing to review and weigh these comments." What does that mean? I thought from the attached email exchange that we were adding a bullet point to Category Two (after the bullet point about Key Systems) about those comments. Why are we now saying that we haven't evaluated them and that we'll continue to review and weigh them? What does that mean? * I don't understand the long inclusion of arguments from Jeff Wheelhouse, Simon Kissane, ICA, EasyDNS, Endurance, and Donuts. To be precise: I'm fine if this sub-team wants to provide argumentation in the document. But if we're going to do that, then we need to do it fairly, to give the WG an accurate representation. So I'll go back through my section and include the argumentation from INTA, MPAA, RIAA, Turner, etc., which I intentionally left out of my draft, because I was trying to keep this document as neutral as possible (because that was how I viewed the objective of our sub-team: to fairly report back to the larger WG). Obviously, to the extent that the comments I analyzed presented arguments on two sides of a question (e.g., why the cost-recovery provision in Section I(B)(iii) should stay or go), then I tried to fairly and succinctly summarize those arguments on both sides, for the benefit of the WG. But I think the only other argumentation that I included was the one sentence from individual commenter Mike Fewings. Todd From: gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Mary Wong Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 4:00 PM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks, Sara! If it's all right with everyone, I'll send this version around to the WG, noting that it is still a draft under discussion by the Sub Team and as such there may be further updates on the call tomorrow (bearing in mind that Vicky has indicated she may have some comments tonight). Additionally, I can also note that some of the language in the draft is also still under discussion by the Sub Team, and some of the issues the Sub Team is discussing will be highlighted during the update to the WG. Let me know if you would prefer another approach. Thanks! Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com<mailto:sbockey@godaddy.com>> Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 13:32 To: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Cc: Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com<mailto:sbockey@godaddy.com>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Mary, Attached is the summary document that now includes my edits. Since it appears that we are now addressing Save Domain Privacy and Respect Our Privacy in separate paragraphs/sections of this document, I have removed references to both petitions from other sections so that there is no confusion. Thanks, Sara From: Mary Wong Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 9:51 AM To: Sara Bockey, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi Sara - sorry, I haven't yet combined your document with Kathy's; please feel free to use whichever works best for you (e.g. dropping your document, with edits, into Kathy's, or just editing yours and sending it back to me). I attach both for your convenience. If I've missed out a version that came in after these, please, everyone, let me know! Thanks so much! Cheers Mary From: Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com<mailto:sbockey@godaddy.com>> Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 12:31 To: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Cc: Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com<mailto:sbockey@godaddy.com>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion I'm having a hard time locating the latest document. Do we have all the "bucket" comments in one document yet? If so, can someone circulate it? Thanks! From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 9:02 AM To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi Todd, yes, certainly - thank you! Actually, my second suggestion was really meant to have us just include a description of the 4 categories (buckets) somewhere in the document, preferably early on. I agree that any conclusion about the petition comments shouldn't be included unless the Sub Team has agreed on it. As has been the case elsewhere, it may also be possible to "square bracket" or otherwise highlight the options/differences under consideration, should that be a more appropriate alternative before tomorrow. Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 11:54 To: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks Mary. To your last point: I think the question of whether the 10,042 signatures from the Save Domain Privacy petition support or oppose the basic premise of Annex E is what we're debating. So no, we shouldn't use that sentence until we've decided that point. I think we've still got some good emails going on these open questions. But we shouldn't hold up your sending out the agenda. Could you send out the agenda noting that our sub-team will be presenting, but then circulate our final document later once it's done (but before tomorrow morning obviously)? From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Mary Wong Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 11:38 AM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Dear all, As I'm preparing to send out the agenda for the WG call tomorrow, along with associated documents, I'm trying to consolidate Kathy's edited document with Sara's review that wasn't in Kathy's version. I also thought to offer the following suggested edit to the language around "verifiable evidence" for your consideration: "The sub-team is working to better understand the meaning of "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" and whether these commenters intended for this wording to seek a different or more specific standard for revealdisclosure, namelysuch as a court order in which the court "verifies" the abuse or infringement alleged with a specific judicial finding, or alternatively, whether the commenters seek a higher standard of evidence and proof in Annex E (which isdoes not currently specify what is a "verifiable evidence" standard) before disclosure. In this regard the sub-team notes that many signatories to the petition also added specific comments that may refer to this standard. These comments are currently under review." The other suggestion I had was to reorganize the document slightly, to make it clearer what the "buckets" are. In this regard, I suggest moving up the following summary from Sara to where Kathy's insertions began (after the specific suggestions for Annex E and before Darcy's additions): "Our sub-team also reviewed and analyzed 39 comments - including one with 10,000+ signatures from the Respect Our Privacy petition and one with 10,042 signatures from the Save Domain Privacy petition - that oppose the basic premise of Annex E. The comments fell into 1 or 4 categories: Category 1 - No disclosure/publication ever. Category 2 - No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. Category 3 - No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP) Category 4 - No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse." Please let me know if you have any comments or objections to the above. Thank you! Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 10:13 To: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>>, Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks Kathy. My thoughts on the attached: * My only point on the "contested vs. uncontested" language was to distinguish those suggested changes to Annex E for which we received comments on both sides of a question vs. those suggested changes for which we did not. Mainly it was just to distinguish the final two paragraphs conceptually. But your changes serve that same purpose well. * I don't understand why we would include "while seeking significantly higher standards for disclosure and options to disclosure" in the third paragraph. We get to what changes the various comments suggested (including which comments asked for higher disclosure standards, and which asked for lower) later in the document. That third paragraph is just noting which comments supported certain sections of Annex E. Plus I'm not sure that all of the comments mentioned in that third paragraph did in fact seek "significantly higher standards for disclosure." * Isn't the analysis of the 11,000 comments from Respect our Privacy contained in Sara and Holly's section (see attached)? Why would we reference them twice? * Darcy's analysis of the "miscellaneous" bucket looks great. Many thanks Darcy - in many ways I think you took the most difficult part, because sometimes it's hard to make sense of how exactly those comments were relevant! Finally: for the reasons I've already outlined in the attached email, I don't understand why we would say that the process outlined in Annex E "is not currently a verifiable evidence standard." As I mentioned before, the "evidence" that Annex E requires, as outlined in Sections II(A), (B), and (C), is extensive. So I don't see any argument why Annex E wouldn't meet the "evidence" part of "verifiable evidence." So I think what we're really trying to interpret is "verifiable." And Kathy in the attached has offered the interpretation that "verifiable" means "a court order in which the court 'verifies' the abuse or infringement alleged with a specific judicial finding." But if that was the correct interpretation, wouldn't the word be "verified" instead of "verifiable"? If a court has issued an order, then it has already done the verifying. Rather, I think the basic plain meaning of "verifiable" - and hence the meaning that we should assume the 10,000+ supporters signed on to - is simply "able to be checked or proved." So it seems much simpler to read "verifiable" to support the portions of Sections III(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E that give P/P Providers the ability to verify the evidence submitted by a Requester by notifying the P/P Customer of the complaint, reviewing the P/P Customer's response, and then responding to the Requester with either disclosure or its reasons for refusing to disclose - which reasons may come from either the Customer under Section III(C)(ii), or from the P/P Provider's own investigation under Section III(C)(iii). In other words, the most plausible reading of "verifiable" is that it simply means that it is not enough for the Requester to provide any evidence and then disclosure automatically follows. Rather, the evidence must be capable of being verified. Which is what Section III provides. From: Mary Wong [mailto:mary.wong@icann.org] Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 7:08 PM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks everyone, that is a lot of work and a document that will clearly help advance the WG's progress quite a bit! Kathy - can I confirm that the document you edited is Darcy's update to Todd's last version, and so does not include what was added/sent by Sara? I'm trying to keep all the drafts clear and ordered, and that's what it looks like to me. If that's the case, I will add Sara's report to Kathy's document (unless there are further changes between now and the WG call on Tuesday). I'll then upload the consolidated draft document and have that ready for the WG at the Tuesday meeting. All - it seems to me that the question as to where the comments relating to "verifiable evidence" should fit is a question that you may wish to bring back to the WG on Tuesday, if there is still no agreement amongst yourselves by then. Finally - two minor suggested changes, both to do with numbers: first, I'd suggest that instead of saying 10,042 comments came with the Save Domain Privacy petition we should say that the petition had 10,042 signatories. Secondly, I suggest adding the word "approximately" to the 11,000 Respect Your Privacy comments. I hope this helps, and thank you all again. Following the WG call on Tuesday, please let me know how you would like to proceed and if there is a need for the Sub Team to get together for a call to discuss its final recommendations to the WG (due in about 2-3 weeks from this Tuesday, according to the current WG Work Plan). Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>> Date: Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 18:40 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi Todd and All, Nice job! I reviewed the entire document and attached is my crack at our summary. I think it includes everyone additions and edits to date (but please check!). I've lost track of who drafted what sections, but I think we are moving in the right direction. Some really good work has been done. I made one small change and two bigger ones and few general edits. The small change is removing the reference to contested and uncontested edits since I am not sure what an uncontested edit and whether commenters would have contested it if they knew what the proposed edit would be. (Unfortunately, since our "Reply Comment" period was removed by ICANN, we don't have this important reply time to review others edits and support or contest them.). I also added in two short paragraphs. The first one describes the Save Domains Privacy comments, the petition language, and the discussion now in place in our sub-team over the meaning of these comments. Perhaps others in the WG can help us shed light on the questions being raised in our sub-team. The second paragraph summarizes the 11,000 Respect Our Privacy comments. They told us that "No one's personal information should be revealed without a court order," and of course, we should reflect them in our summary. On my machine, my redlines appear in red, and the prior editor's redlines (for the paragraphs at the end starting "Finally, our sub-team reviewed and analyzed 21 miscellaneous comments...") appear in grey. I hope these redlines are clear for you too. Best and enjoy the rest of the weekend, Kathy : Kathy: Attached is my first crack at our portion of the summary (on the Bucket Two comments). Let me know if you have any suggested edits, additions, subtractions, etc. Also, I've copied the entire sub-team mailing list on this email, for two reasons: 1) So that there is a transparent public record of any back-and-forth red-lining of the document that we may do; and 2) So that Sara and Holly for Bucket One, and Darcy for our miscellaneous bucket, can see what I envision for our summary report to the WG. If you all want to add your summaries to this one to make it consistent in terms of formatting, etc., feel free. I had one thought Sara and Holly for Bucket One (which came to me as I was conceptually dividing our Bucket Two comments into general support, specific support, suggested changes by addition, suggested edits uncontested, suggested edits contested): it may be helpful for the WG if we divide our Bucket One comments into categories along a spectrum. As I envision it (in order along the spectrum): 1) No disclosure/publication ever. 2) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. I would put the 10,000+ "Respect our Privacy" comments here. 3) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP). E.g., I think the Google comment would go here. 4) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse. E.g., I think the ICA and EasyDNS comments would go here. For the WG's sake, we may also want to distinguish between those Bucket One comments that couched their discussion of disclosure/publication in terms of what P/P Providers ought to be required to do (or not required to do) in response to external third-party disclosure requests such as from IP owners or LEA (e.g., the Google and Key Systems comments) vs. those Bucket One comments that simply said "no publication/disclosure absent a court order" without distinguishing b/w whether the impetus for the disclosure was an external third-party request or the P/P Provider's own desire to disclose/publish (e.g., the 10,000+ "Respect our Privacy" comments). Thanks all! TW. From: Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:06 AM To: Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com><mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>; Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com><mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Whoops, I left out Jawala at the bottom, who should go in bucket two. Sorry. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:01 AM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I've added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Tx Mary! Kathy : Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone - this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I'll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG's preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though "attached" to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I'm afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team's Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you're working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can - with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG's preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates. I'm happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I'm happy to do that (per Kathy's suggestion on the call today) while I'm doing the current update anyway. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I've been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I've attached - I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that): * First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG's proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue. * Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG's proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the "Respect our Privacy" submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly's point though that in this paragraph we should note that the "Respect our Privacy" submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google's, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, and didn't accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice. * Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG's proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a "higher standard." From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary. * Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we're not sure what to do with. That's how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below: * Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn't touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I'm pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4's work). Not that I'm not interested in LE - just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams. * In response to Mary's email (attached): I agree that I'm not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we're certainly planning to do), then I don't see why we'd need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that's fine. I just don't see how that helps us get to our final work product. * Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team's role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that - OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we do about that? - I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I'm just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier. Thanks all! From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx! Hi Everyone First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so. The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from. ==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever. The second is one I'd like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way. ==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one's personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency". (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?) My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket) The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are. ==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead! My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I'd suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex. ==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category. I"ll be having a look at that third category My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not. ==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy Happy to discuss Holly On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:Kathy@kathykleiman.com>> wrote: Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion. Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All of these comments contain a clear call: - No one's personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency. Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool? Best and tx, Kathy : Dear all, Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39. Apologies again for the inadvertent omission - they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I'll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Hello Todd and everyone, Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list! Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members' questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don't replace WG members' reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG's/Sub Team's eagle eyes is the best arrangement. Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I've taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don't believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I've compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure. On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd's suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd's initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn't address either - so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate). BTW, Todd, maybe it's my machine or more likely that I haven't looked through it in detail, but I'm not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated .... ? Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way! Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Am I the first to try this out? Cool. As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was helpful to illustrate where we'll need to be by 8-11, which in turn might help us decide what we'll need to do to get there. Specifically, I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I'd recommend that we do the same. Here are the two that I'd propose: 1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. Presumably this group would present on: * How many of these comments were there? * Who did they come from? * What arguments did they make? * What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions of the Initial Report beyond Annex E? 2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. Presumably this group would present on: * How many of these comments were there? * Who did they come from? * What arguments did they make? * What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address the arguments raised in these comments? I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it will help our sub-team "divide and conquer" the work that we have before us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I'm not really sure how we'd otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose and/or publish absent a court order isn't arguing for changes to Annex E; it's arguing to scrap Annex E altogether. With those two buckets in mind, I've taken a first pass through the comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to make sure that they agree with how I've tentatively divided the comments? Once we're comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some members want to tackle the third "unclear" category) to start reviewing the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other questions that anybody wants to suggest). Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was compiled? I'm just curious because I want to make sure that our sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For example, I know that Turner's comment (available here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnSR7.pd...) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn't included in the attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted it. :) So I want to make sure that there aren't other comments on Annex E that we also ought to be reviewing. Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody. Todd. Todd D. Williams Counsel Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. One CNN Center, 10 North Atlanta, Georgia 30303 P: 404-827-2234 F: 404-827-1994 todd.williams@turner.com<mailto:todd.williams@turner.com> * Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E. 1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach of material service terms such as Internet abuse) 2) Google 3) 1&1 Internet SE 4) Access Now 5) Endurance Int'l Group 6) Jeff Wheelhouse 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service terms such as net abuse) 8) Greg McMullen 9) Evelyn Aya Snow 10) Ralf Haring 11) Liam 12) Dr M Klinefelter 13) Sam 14) Dan M 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas 16) Not your business 17) Simon Kissane 18) TS 19) Cort Wee 20) Alex Xu 21) Kenneth Godwin 22) Shahed Ahmmed 23) Sebastian Broussier 24) Andrew Merenbach 25) Finn Ellis 26) Aaron Holmes 27) Michael Ekstrand 28) Homer 29) Donuts 30) Michael Ho 31) Key Systems * Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework. 1) BC 2) MPAA 3) ISPCP 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge 5) INTA 6) IACC 7) NCSG 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas 9) Cyberinvasion 10) Phil Crooker 11) Aaron Myers 12) Cui (ADNDRC) 13) Mike Fewings 14) Name withheld 15) Gary Miller 16) Byunghoon Choi 17) Reid Baker 18) Nick O'Dell 19) Time Warner 20) RIAA & IFPI 21) IPC 22) Thomas Smoonlock 23) Vanda Scartezini 24) Tim Kramer * Bucket Three: unclear. 1) Sven Slootweg 2) Brendan Conniff 3) Marc Schauber 4) Aaron Mason 5) Kevin Szprychel 6) Christopher 7) James Ford 8) Shantanu Gupta 9) Christopher Smith 10) Private 11) Robert Lukitsh 12) Adam Miller 13) Charles 14) Aaron Dalton 15) Stephen Black Wolf 16) Ian McNeil 17) Adam Creighton 18) Arthur Zonnenberg 19) Anand S. 20) Lucas Stadler 21) Alan _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3
Todd, Regarding the “long inclusions” – as I stated when I originally submitted my comments – it was a rough draft and I fully expected Holly and others to review, weigh in and edit. If most of the group does not want to included them, then we can edit accordingly. Sara From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 1:50 PM To: Mary Wong, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks Mary. No, I’m not putting my name on this. Nobody has responded to the questions that I raised earlier today (see attached). And we still don’t have Vicky’s comments. Just to reiterate my problems with the attached: · The attached says that our sub-team is debating whether “verifiable evidence of wrongdoing” either means court order or “a higher standard of evidence and proof in Annex E (which is not currently a “verifiable evidence” standard) before disclosure.” But that is not an accurate representation of our internal debate, as I’ve outlined in the attached emails. I’m fine telling the WG that we can’t decide how to interpret “verifiable evidence” (though I still don’t understand how to interpret “verifiable evidence” to mean “court order”). But if we do so, we at least have to accurately reflect what the competing arguments are. · I don’t understand the statement that “the sub-team noted but has not yet evaluated the 11,000 comments received from commenters arriving from the Respect Our Privacy website. These commenters, each individually, urged a rejection of Annex E in favor of due process as defined by judicial process” and that “The sub-team is continuing to review and weigh these comments.” What does that mean? I thought from the attached email exchange that we were adding a bullet point to Category Two (after the bullet point about Key Systems) about those comments. Why are we now saying that we haven’t evaluated them and that we’ll continue to review and weigh them? What does that mean? · I don’t understand the long inclusion of arguments from Jeff Wheelhouse, Simon Kissane, ICA, EasyDNS, Endurance, and Donuts. To be precise: I’m fine if this sub-team wants to provide argumentation in the document. But if we’re going to do that, then we need to do it fairly, to give the WG an accurate representation. So I’ll go back through my section and include the argumentation from INTA, MPAA, RIAA, Turner, etc., which I intentionally left out of my draft, because I was trying to keep this document as neutral as possible (because that was how I viewed the objective of our sub-team: to fairly report back to the larger WG). Obviously, to the extent that the comments I analyzed presented arguments on two sides of a question (e.g., why the cost-recovery provision in Section I(B)(iii) should stay or go), then I tried to fairly and succinctly summarize those arguments on both sides, for the benefit of the WG. But I think the only other argumentation that I included was the one sentence from individual commenter Mike Fewings. Todd From: gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Mary Wong Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 4:00 PM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks, Sara! If it’s all right with everyone, I’ll send this version around to the WG, noting that it is still a draft under discussion by the Sub Team and as such there may be further updates on the call tomorrow (bearing in mind that Vicky has indicated she may have some comments tonight). Additionally, I can also note that some of the language in the draft is also still under discussion by the Sub Team, and some of the issues the Sub Team is discussing will be highlighted during the update to the WG. Let me know if you would prefer another approach. Thanks! Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com<mailto:sbockey@godaddy.com>> Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 13:32 To: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Cc: Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com<mailto:sbockey@godaddy.com>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Mary, Attached is the summary document that now includes my edits. Since it appears that we are now addressing Save Domain Privacy and Respect Our Privacy in separate paragraphs/sections of this document, I have removed references to both petitions from other sections so that there is no confusion. Thanks, Sara From: Mary Wong Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 9:51 AM To: Sara Bockey, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi Sara – sorry, I haven’t yet combined your document with Kathy’s; please feel free to use whichever works best for you (e.g. dropping your document, with edits, into Kathy’s, or just editing yours and sending it back to me). I attach both for your convenience. If I’ve missed out a version that came in after these, please, everyone, let me know! Thanks so much! Cheers Mary From: Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com<mailto:sbockey@godaddy.com>> Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 12:31 To: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Cc: Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com<mailto:sbockey@godaddy.com>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion I’m having a hard time locating the latest document. Do we have all the “bucket” comments in one document yet? If so, can someone circulate it? Thanks! From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 9:02 AM To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi Todd, yes, certainly – thank you! Actually, my second suggestion was really meant to have us just include a description of the 4 categories (buckets) somewhere in the document, preferably early on. I agree that any conclusion about the petition comments shouldn’t be included unless the Sub Team has agreed on it. As has been the case elsewhere, it may also be possible to “square bracket” or otherwise highlight the options/differences under consideration, should that be a more appropriate alternative before tomorrow. Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 11:54 To: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks Mary. To your last point: I think the question of whether the 10,042 signatures from the Save Domain Privacy petition support or oppose the basic premise of Annex E is what we’re debating. So no, we shouldn’t use that sentence until we’ve decided that point. I think we’ve still got some good emails going on these open questions. But we shouldn’t hold up your sending out the agenda. Could you send out the agenda noting that our sub-team will be presenting, but then circulate our final document later once it’s done (but before tomorrow morning obviously)? From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Mary Wong Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 11:38 AM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Dear all, As I’m preparing to send out the agenda for the WG call tomorrow, along with associated documents, I’m trying to consolidate Kathy’s edited document with Sara’s review that wasn’t in Kathy’s version. I also thought to offer the following suggested edit to the language around “verifiable evidence” for your consideration: "The sub-team is working to better understand the meaning of “verifiable evidence of wrongdoing” and whether these commenters intended for this wording to seek a different or more specific standard for revealdisclosure, namelysuch as a court order in which the court “verifies” the abuse or infringement alleged with a specific judicial finding, or alternatively, whether the commenters seek a higher standard of evidence and proof in Annex E (which isdoes not currently specify what is a “verifiable evidence” standard) before disclosure. In this regard the sub-team notes that many signatories to the petition also added specific comments that may refer to this standard. These comments are currently under review." The other suggestion I had was to reorganize the document slightly, to make it clearer what the “buckets” are. In this regard, I suggest moving up the following summary from Sara to where Kathy’s insertions began (after the specific suggestions for Annex E and before Darcy’s additions): "Our sub-team also reviewed and analyzed 39 comments – including one with 10,000+ signatures from the Respect Our Privacy petition and one with 10,042 signatures from the Save Domain Privacy petition – that oppose the basic premise of Annex E. The comments fell into 1 or 4 categories: Category 1 - No disclosure/publication ever. Category 2 - No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. Category 3 - No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP) Category 4 - No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse." Please let me know if you have any comments or objections to the above. Thank you! Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 10:13 To: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>>, Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks Kathy. My thoughts on the attached: · My only point on the “contested vs. uncontested” language was to distinguish those suggested changes to Annex E for which we received comments on both sides of a question vs. those suggested changes for which we did not. Mainly it was just to distinguish the final two paragraphs conceptually. But your changes serve that same purpose well. · I don’t understand why we would include “while seeking significantly higher standards for disclosure and options to disclosure” in the third paragraph. We get to what changes the various comments suggested (including which comments asked for higher disclosure standards, and which asked for lower) later in the document. That third paragraph is just noting which comments supported certain sections of Annex E. Plus I’m not sure that all of the comments mentioned in that third paragraph did in fact seek “significantly higher standards for disclosure.” · Isn’t the analysis of the 11,000 comments from Respect our Privacy contained in Sara and Holly’s section (see attached)? Why would we reference them twice? · Darcy’s analysis of the “miscellaneous” bucket looks great. Many thanks Darcy – in many ways I think you took the most difficult part, because sometimes it’s hard to make sense of how exactly those comments were relevant! Finally: for the reasons I’ve already outlined in the attached email, I don’t understand why we would say that the process outlined in Annex E “is not currently a verifiable evidence standard.” As I mentioned before, the "evidence" that Annex E requires, as outlined in Sections II(A), (B), and (C), is extensive. So I don’t see any argument why Annex E wouldn’t meet the “evidence” part of “verifiable evidence.” So I think what we’re really trying to interpret is “verifiable.” And Kathy in the attached has offered the interpretation that “verifiable” means “a court order in which the court ‘verifies’ the abuse or infringement alleged with a specific judicial finding.” But if that was the correct interpretation, wouldn’t the word be “verified” instead of “verifiable”? If a court has issued an order, then it has already done the verifying. Rather, I think the basic plain meaning of “verifiable” – and hence the meaning that we should assume the 10,000+ supporters signed on to – is simply “able to be checked or proved.” So it seems much simpler to read “verifiable” to support the portions of Sections III(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E that give P/P Providers the ability to verify the evidence submitted by a Requester by notifying the P/P Customer of the complaint, reviewing the P/P Customer’s response, and then responding to the Requester with either disclosure or its reasons for refusing to disclose – which reasons may come from either the Customer under Section III(C)(ii), or from the P/P Provider’s own investigation under Section III(C)(iii). In other words, the most plausible reading of “verifiable” is that it simply means that it is not enough for the Requester to provide any evidence and then disclosure automatically follows. Rather, the evidence must be capable of being verified. Which is what Section III provides. From: Mary Wong [mailto:mary.wong@icann.org] Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 7:08 PM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks everyone, that is a lot of work and a document that will clearly help advance the WG’s progress quite a bit! Kathy – can I confirm that the document you edited is Darcy’s update to Todd’s last version, and so does not include what was added/sent by Sara? I’m trying to keep all the drafts clear and ordered, and that’s what it looks like to me. If that’s the case, I will add Sara’s report to Kathy’s document (unless there are further changes between now and the WG call on Tuesday). I’ll then upload the consolidated draft document and have that ready for the WG at the Tuesday meeting. All – it seems to me that the question as to where the comments relating to “verifiable evidence” should fit is a question that you may wish to bring back to the WG on Tuesday, if there is still no agreement amongst yourselves by then. Finally – two minor suggested changes, both to do with numbers: first, I’d suggest that instead of saying 10,042 comments came with the Save Domain Privacy petition we should say that the petition had 10,042 signatories. Secondly, I suggest adding the word “approximately” to the 11,000 Respect Your Privacy comments. I hope this helps, and thank you all again. Following the WG call on Tuesday, please let me know how you would like to proceed and if there is a need for the Sub Team to get together for a call to discuss its final recommendations to the WG (due in about 2-3 weeks from this Tuesday, according to the current WG Work Plan). Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>> Date: Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 18:40 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi Todd and All, Nice job! I reviewed the entire document and attached is my crack at our summary. I think it includes everyone additions and edits to date (but please check!). I've lost track of who drafted what sections, but I think we are moving in the right direction. Some really good work has been done. I made one small change and two bigger ones and few general edits. The small change is removing the reference to contested and uncontested edits since I am not sure what an uncontested edit and whether commenters would have contested it if they knew what the proposed edit would be. (Unfortunately, since our "Reply Comment" period was removed by ICANN, we don't have this important reply time to review others edits and support or contest them.). I also added in two short paragraphs. The first one describes the Save Domains Privacy comments, the petition language, and the discussion now in place in our sub-team over the meaning of these comments. Perhaps others in the WG can help us shed light on the questions being raised in our sub-team. The second paragraph summarizes the 11,000 Respect Our Privacy comments. They told us that "No one's personal information should be revealed without a court order," and of course, we should reflect them in our summary. On my machine, my redlines appear in red, and the prior editor's redlines (for the paragraphs at the end starting "Finally, our sub-team reviewed and analyzed 21 miscellaneous comments...") appear in grey. I hope these redlines are clear for you too. Best and enjoy the rest of the weekend, Kathy : Kathy: Attached is my first crack at our portion of the summary (on the Bucket Two comments). Let me know if you have any suggested edits, additions, subtractions, etc. Also, I’ve copied the entire sub-team mailing list on this email, for two reasons: 1) So that there is a transparent public record of any back-and-forth red-lining of the document that we may do; and 2) So that Sara and Holly for Bucket One, and Darcy for our miscellaneous bucket, can see what I envision for our summary report to the WG. If you all want to add your summaries to this one to make it consistent in terms of formatting, etc., feel free. I had one thought Sara and Holly for Bucket One (which came to me as I was conceptually dividing our Bucket Two comments into general support, specific support, suggested changes by addition, suggested edits uncontested, suggested edits contested): it may be helpful for the WG if we divide our Bucket One comments into categories along a spectrum. As I envision it (in order along the spectrum): 1) No disclosure/publication ever. 2) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. I would put the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments here. 3) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP). E.g., I think the Google comment would go here. 4) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse. E.g., I think the ICA and EasyDNS comments would go here. For the WG’s sake, we may also want to distinguish between those Bucket One comments that couched their discussion of disclosure/publication in terms of what P/P Providers ought to be required to do (or not required to do) in response to external third-party disclosure requests such as from IP owners or LEA (e.g., the Google and Key Systems comments) vs. those Bucket One comments that simply said “no publication/disclosure absent a court order” without distinguishing b/w whether the impetus for the disclosure was an external third-party request or the P/P Provider’s own desire to disclose/publish (e.g., the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments). Thanks all! TW. From: Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:06 AM To: Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com><mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>; Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com><mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Whoops, I left out Jawala at the bottom, who should go in bucket two. Sorry. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:01 AM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I’ve added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Tx Mary! Kathy : Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone – this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I’ll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG’s preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though “attached” to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I’m afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team’s Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you’re working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can – with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG’s preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates. I’m happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I’m happy to do that (per Kathy’s suggestion on the call today) while I’m doing the current update anyway. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I’ve been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I’ve attached – I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that): · First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue. · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly’s point though that in this paragraph we should note that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google’s, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, and didn’t accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice. · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that “verifiable evidence of wrongdoing” is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a “higher standard.” From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary. · Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we’re not sure what to do with. That’s how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below: · Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn’t touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I’m pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4’s work). Not that I’m not interested in LE – just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams. · In response to Mary’s email (attached): I agree that I’m not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we’re certainly planning to do), then I don’t see why we’d need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that’s fine. I just don’t see how that helps us get to our final work product. · Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team’s role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that – OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we do about that? – I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I’m just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier. Thanks all! From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx! Hi Everyone First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so. The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from. ==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever. The second is one I’d like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way. ==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency”. (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?) My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket) The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are. ==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead! My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I’d suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex. ==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category. I”ll be having a look at that third category My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not. ==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy Happy to discuss Holly On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:Kathy@kathykleiman.com>> wrote: Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion. Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All of these comments contain a clear call: - No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency. Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool? Best and tx, Kathy : Dear all, Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39. Apologies again for the inadvertent omission – they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I’ll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Hello Todd and everyone, Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list! Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members’ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don’t replace WG members’ reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG’s/Sub Team’s eagle eyes is the best arrangement. Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I’ve taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don’t believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I’ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure. On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd’s suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd’s initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn’t address either – so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate). BTW, Todd, maybe it’s my machine or more likely that I haven’t looked through it in detail, but I’m not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated …. ? Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way! Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Am I the first to try this out? Cool. As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was helpful to illustrate where we’ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn might help us decide what we’ll need to do to get there. Specifically, I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I’d recommend that we do the same. Here are the two that I’d propose: 1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions of the Initial Report beyond Annex E? 2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address the arguments raised in these comments? I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it will help our sub-team “divide and conquer” the work that we have before us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I’m not really sure how we’d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose and/or publish absent a court order isn’t arguing for changes to Annex E; it’s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether. With those two buckets in mind, I’ve taken a first pass through the comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to make sure that they agree with how I’ve tentatively divided the comments? Once we’re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some members want to tackle the third “unclear” category) to start reviewing the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other questions that anybody wants to suggest). Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was compiled? I’m just curious because I want to make sure that our sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For example, I know that Turner’s comment (available here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnSR7.pd...) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn’t included in the attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted it. ☺ So I want to make sure that there aren’t other comments on Annex E that we also ought to be reviewing. Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody. Todd. Todd D. Williams Counsel Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. One CNN Center, 10 North Atlanta, Georgia 30303 P: 404-827-2234 F: 404-827-1994 todd.williams@turner.com<mailto:todd.williams@turner.com> · Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E. 1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach of material service terms such as Internet abuse) 2) Google 3) 1&1 Internet SE 4) Access Now 5) Endurance Int’l Group 6) Jeff Wheelhouse 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service terms such as net abuse) 8) Greg McMullen 9) Evelyn Aya Snow 10) Ralf Haring 11) Liam 12) Dr M Klinefelter 13) Sam 14) Dan M 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas 16) Not your business 17) Simon Kissane 18) TS 19) Cort Wee 20) Alex Xu 21) Kenneth Godwin 22) Shahed Ahmmed 23) Sebastian Broussier 24) Andrew Merenbach 25) Finn Ellis 26) Aaron Holmes 27) Michael Ekstrand 28) Homer 29) Donuts 30) Michael Ho 31) Key Systems * Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework. 1) BC 2) MPAA 3) ISPCP 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge 5) INTA 6) IACC 7) NCSG 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas 9) Cyberinvasion 10) Phil Crooker 11) Aaron Myers 12) Cui (ADNDRC) 13) Mike Fewings 14) Name withheld 15) Gary Miller 16) Byunghoon Choi 17) Reid Baker 18) Nick O’Dell 19) Time Warner 20) RIAA & IFPI 21) IPC 22) Thomas Smoonlock 23) Vanda Scartezini 24) Tim Kramer * Bucket Three: unclear. 1) Sven Slootweg 2) Brendan Conniff 3) Marc Schauber 4) Aaron Mason 5) Kevin Szprychel 6) Christopher 7) James Ford 8) Shantanu Gupta 9) Christopher Smith 10) Private 11) Robert Lukitsh 12) Adam Miller 13) Charles 14) Aaron Dalton 15) Stephen Black Wolf 16) Ian McNeil 17) Adam Creighton 18) Arthur Zonnenberg 19) Anand S. 20) Lucas Stadler 21) Alan _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3
Thanks Sara. I’m not opposed to including them; I just don’t see the point. If we do that (and then go back and do it for the other sections as well), eventually we’re just left with the same document that we started with from staff (attached), which kind of defeats the purpose of our exercise, which was to present the WG with a short summary akin to what the first sub-team presented (also attached). That said, I don’t really care one way or the other. I care more about my first two bullet points below. From: Sara Bockey [mailto:sbockey@godaddy.com] Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 5:19 PM To: Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com>; Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Cc: Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Todd, Regarding the “long inclusions” – as I stated when I originally submitted my comments – it was a rough draft and I fully expected Holly and others to review, weigh in and edit. If most of the group does not want to included them, then we can edit accordingly. Sara From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 1:50 PM To: Mary Wong, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks Mary. No, I’m not putting my name on this. Nobody has responded to the questions that I raised earlier today (see attached). And we still don’t have Vicky’s comments. Just to reiterate my problems with the attached: · The attached says that our sub-team is debating whether “verifiable evidence of wrongdoing” either means court order or “a higher standard of evidence and proof in Annex E (which is not currently a “verifiable evidence” standard) before disclosure.” But that is not an accurate representation of our internal debate, as I’ve outlined in the attached emails. I’m fine telling the WG that we can’t decide how to interpret “verifiable evidence” (though I still don’t understand how to interpret “verifiable evidence” to mean “court order”). But if we do so, we at least have to accurately reflect what the competing arguments are. · I don’t understand the statement that “the sub-team noted but has not yet evaluated the 11,000 comments received from commenters arriving from the Respect Our Privacy website. These commenters, each individually, urged a rejection of Annex E in favor of due process as defined by judicial process” and that “The sub-team is continuing to review and weigh these comments.” What does that mean? I thought from the attached email exchange that we were adding a bullet point to Category Two (after the bullet point about Key Systems) about those comments. Why are we now saying that we haven’t evaluated them and that we’ll continue to review and weigh them? What does that mean? · I don’t understand the long inclusion of arguments from Jeff Wheelhouse, Simon Kissane, ICA, EasyDNS, Endurance, and Donuts. To be precise: I’m fine if this sub-team wants to provide argumentation in the document. But if we’re going to do that, then we need to do it fairly, to give the WG an accurate representation. So I’ll go back through my section and include the argumentation from INTA, MPAA, RIAA, Turner, etc., which I intentionally left out of my draft, because I was trying to keep this document as neutral as possible (because that was how I viewed the objective of our sub-team: to fairly report back to the larger WG). Obviously, to the extent that the comments I analyzed presented arguments on two sides of a question (e.g., why the cost-recovery provision in Section I(B)(iii) should stay or go), then I tried to fairly and succinctly summarize those arguments on both sides, for the benefit of the WG. But I think the only other argumentation that I included was the one sentence from individual commenter Mike Fewings. Todd From: gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Mary Wong Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 4:00 PM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks, Sara! If it’s all right with everyone, I’ll send this version around to the WG, noting that it is still a draft under discussion by the Sub Team and as such there may be further updates on the call tomorrow (bearing in mind that Vicky has indicated she may have some comments tonight). Additionally, I can also note that some of the language in the draft is also still under discussion by the Sub Team, and some of the issues the Sub Team is discussing will be highlighted during the update to the WG. Let me know if you would prefer another approach. Thanks! Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com<mailto:sbockey@godaddy.com>> Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 13:32 To: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Cc: Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com<mailto:sbockey@godaddy.com>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Mary, Attached is the summary document that now includes my edits. Since it appears that we are now addressing Save Domain Privacy and Respect Our Privacy in separate paragraphs/sections of this document, I have removed references to both petitions from other sections so that there is no confusion. Thanks, Sara From: Mary Wong Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 9:51 AM To: Sara Bockey, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi Sara – sorry, I haven’t yet combined your document with Kathy’s; please feel free to use whichever works best for you (e.g. dropping your document, with edits, into Kathy’s, or just editing yours and sending it back to me). I attach both for your convenience. If I’ve missed out a version that came in after these, please, everyone, let me know! Thanks so much! Cheers Mary From: Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com<mailto:sbockey@godaddy.com>> Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 12:31 To: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Cc: Sara Bockey <sbockey@godaddy.com<mailto:sbockey@godaddy.com>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion I’m having a hard time locating the latest document. Do we have all the “bucket” comments in one document yet? If so, can someone circulate it? Thanks! From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 9:02 AM To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi Todd, yes, certainly – thank you! Actually, my second suggestion was really meant to have us just include a description of the 4 categories (buckets) somewhere in the document, preferably early on. I agree that any conclusion about the petition comments shouldn’t be included unless the Sub Team has agreed on it. As has been the case elsewhere, it may also be possible to “square bracket” or otherwise highlight the options/differences under consideration, should that be a more appropriate alternative before tomorrow. Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 11:54 To: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks Mary. To your last point: I think the question of whether the 10,042 signatures from the Save Domain Privacy petition support or oppose the basic premise of Annex E is what we’re debating. So no, we shouldn’t use that sentence until we’ve decided that point. I think we’ve still got some good emails going on these open questions. But we shouldn’t hold up your sending out the agenda. Could you send out the agenda noting that our sub-team will be presenting, but then circulate our final document later once it’s done (but before tomorrow morning obviously)? From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Mary Wong Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 11:38 AM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Dear all, As I’m preparing to send out the agenda for the WG call tomorrow, along with associated documents, I’m trying to consolidate Kathy’s edited document with Sara’s review that wasn’t in Kathy’s version. I also thought to offer the following suggested edit to the language around “verifiable evidence” for your consideration: "The sub-team is working to better understand the meaning of “verifiable evidence of wrongdoing” and whether these commenters intended for this wording to seek a different or more specific standard for revealdisclosure, namelysuch as a court order in which the court “verifies” the abuse or infringement alleged with a specific judicial finding, or alternatively, whether the commenters seek a higher standard of evidence and proof in Annex E (which isdoes not currently specify what is a “verifiable evidence” standard) before disclosure. In this regard the sub-team notes that many signatories to the petition also added specific comments that may refer to this standard. These comments are currently under review." The other suggestion I had was to reorganize the document slightly, to make it clearer what the “buckets” are. In this regard, I suggest moving up the following summary from Sara to where Kathy’s insertions began (after the specific suggestions for Annex E and before Darcy’s additions): "Our sub-team also reviewed and analyzed 39 comments – including one with 10,000+ signatures from the Respect Our Privacy petition and one with 10,042 signatures from the Save Domain Privacy petition – that oppose the basic premise of Annex E. The comments fell into 1 or 4 categories: Category 1 - No disclosure/publication ever. Category 2 - No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. Category 3 - No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP) Category 4 - No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse." Please let me know if you have any comments or objections to the above. Thank you! Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 10:13 To: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>>, Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks Kathy. My thoughts on the attached: · My only point on the “contested vs. uncontested” language was to distinguish those suggested changes to Annex E for which we received comments on both sides of a question vs. those suggested changes for which we did not. Mainly it was just to distinguish the final two paragraphs conceptually. But your changes serve that same purpose well. · I don’t understand why we would include “while seeking significantly higher standards for disclosure and options to disclosure” in the third paragraph. We get to what changes the various comments suggested (including which comments asked for higher disclosure standards, and which asked for lower) later in the document. That third paragraph is just noting which comments supported certain sections of Annex E. Plus I’m not sure that all of the comments mentioned in that third paragraph did in fact seek “significantly higher standards for disclosure.” · Isn’t the analysis of the 11,000 comments from Respect our Privacy contained in Sara and Holly’s section (see attached)? Why would we reference them twice? · Darcy’s analysis of the “miscellaneous” bucket looks great. Many thanks Darcy – in many ways I think you took the most difficult part, because sometimes it’s hard to make sense of how exactly those comments were relevant! Finally: for the reasons I’ve already outlined in the attached email, I don’t understand why we would say that the process outlined in Annex E “is not currently a verifiable evidence standard.” As I mentioned before, the "evidence" that Annex E requires, as outlined in Sections II(A), (B), and (C), is extensive. So I don’t see any argument why Annex E wouldn’t meet the “evidence” part of “verifiable evidence.” So I think what we’re really trying to interpret is “verifiable.” And Kathy in the attached has offered the interpretation that “verifiable” means “a court order in which the court ‘verifies’ the abuse or infringement alleged with a specific judicial finding.” But if that was the correct interpretation, wouldn’t the word be “verified” instead of “verifiable”? If a court has issued an order, then it has already done the verifying. Rather, I think the basic plain meaning of “verifiable” – and hence the meaning that we should assume the 10,000+ supporters signed on to – is simply “able to be checked or proved.” So it seems much simpler to read “verifiable” to support the portions of Sections III(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E that give P/P Providers the ability to verify the evidence submitted by a Requester by notifying the P/P Customer of the complaint, reviewing the P/P Customer’s response, and then responding to the Requester with either disclosure or its reasons for refusing to disclose – which reasons may come from either the Customer under Section III(C)(ii), or from the P/P Provider’s own investigation under Section III(C)(iii). In other words, the most plausible reading of “verifiable” is that it simply means that it is not enough for the Requester to provide any evidence and then disclosure automatically follows. Rather, the evidence must be capable of being verified. Which is what Section III provides. From: Mary Wong [mailto:mary.wong@icann.org] Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 7:08 PM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks everyone, that is a lot of work and a document that will clearly help advance the WG’s progress quite a bit! Kathy – can I confirm that the document you edited is Darcy’s update to Todd’s last version, and so does not include what was added/sent by Sara? I’m trying to keep all the drafts clear and ordered, and that’s what it looks like to me. If that’s the case, I will add Sara’s report to Kathy’s document (unless there are further changes between now and the WG call on Tuesday). I’ll then upload the consolidated draft document and have that ready for the WG at the Tuesday meeting. All – it seems to me that the question as to where the comments relating to “verifiable evidence” should fit is a question that you may wish to bring back to the WG on Tuesday, if there is still no agreement amongst yourselves by then. Finally – two minor suggested changes, both to do with numbers: first, I’d suggest that instead of saying 10,042 comments came with the Save Domain Privacy petition we should say that the petition had 10,042 signatories. Secondly, I suggest adding the word “approximately” to the 11,000 Respect Your Privacy comments. I hope this helps, and thank you all again. Following the WG call on Tuesday, please let me know how you would like to proceed and if there is a need for the Sub Team to get together for a call to discuss its final recommendations to the WG (due in about 2-3 weeks from this Tuesday, according to the current WG Work Plan). Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>> Date: Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 18:40 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi Todd and All, Nice job! I reviewed the entire document and attached is my crack at our summary. I think it includes everyone additions and edits to date (but please check!). I've lost track of who drafted what sections, but I think we are moving in the right direction. Some really good work has been done. I made one small change and two bigger ones and few general edits. The small change is removing the reference to contested and uncontested edits since I am not sure what an uncontested edit and whether commenters would have contested it if they knew what the proposed edit would be. (Unfortunately, since our "Reply Comment" period was removed by ICANN, we don't have this important reply time to review others edits and support or contest them.). I also added in two short paragraphs. The first one describes the Save Domains Privacy comments, the petition language, and the discussion now in place in our sub-team over the meaning of these comments. Perhaps others in the WG can help us shed light on the questions being raised in our sub-team. The second paragraph summarizes the 11,000 Respect Our Privacy comments. They told us that "No one's personal information should be revealed without a court order," and of course, we should reflect them in our summary. On my machine, my redlines appear in red, and the prior editor's redlines (for the paragraphs at the end starting "Finally, our sub-team reviewed and analyzed 21 miscellaneous comments...") appear in grey. I hope these redlines are clear for you too. Best and enjoy the rest of the weekend, Kathy : Kathy: Attached is my first crack at our portion of the summary (on the Bucket Two comments). Let me know if you have any suggested edits, additions, subtractions, etc. Also, I’ve copied the entire sub-team mailing list on this email, for two reasons: 1) So that there is a transparent public record of any back-and-forth red-lining of the document that we may do; and 2) So that Sara and Holly for Bucket One, and Darcy for our miscellaneous bucket, can see what I envision for our summary report to the WG. If you all want to add your summaries to this one to make it consistent in terms of formatting, etc., feel free. I had one thought Sara and Holly for Bucket One (which came to me as I was conceptually dividing our Bucket Two comments into general support, specific support, suggested changes by addition, suggested edits uncontested, suggested edits contested): it may be helpful for the WG if we divide our Bucket One comments into categories along a spectrum. As I envision it (in order along the spectrum): 1) No disclosure/publication ever. 2) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. I would put the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments here. 3) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP). E.g., I think the Google comment would go here. 4) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse. E.g., I think the ICA and EasyDNS comments would go here. For the WG’s sake, we may also want to distinguish between those Bucket One comments that couched their discussion of disclosure/publication in terms of what P/P Providers ought to be required to do (or not required to do) in response to external third-party disclosure requests such as from IP owners or LEA (e.g., the Google and Key Systems comments) vs. those Bucket One comments that simply said “no publication/disclosure absent a court order” without distinguishing b/w whether the impetus for the disclosure was an external third-party request or the P/P Provider’s own desire to disclose/publish (e.g., the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments). Thanks all! TW. From: Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:06 AM To: Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com><mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>; Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com><mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Whoops, I left out Jawala at the bottom, who should go in bucket two. Sorry. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:01 AM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I’ve added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks. From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Tx Mary! Kathy : Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone – this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I’ll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG’s preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though “attached” to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I’m afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team’s Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you’re working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can – with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG’s preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates. I’m happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I’m happy to do that (per Kathy’s suggestion on the call today) while I’m doing the current update anyway. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I’ve been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I’ve attached – I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that): · First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue. · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly’s point though that in this paragraph we should note that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google’s, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, and didn’t accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice. · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that “verifiable evidence of wrongdoing” is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a “higher standard.” From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary. · Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we’re not sure what to do with. That’s how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below: · Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn’t touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I’m pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4’s work). Not that I’m not interested in LE – just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams. · In response to Mary’s email (attached): I agree that I’m not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we’re certainly planning to do), then I don’t see why we’d need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that’s fine. I just don’t see how that helps us get to our final work product. · Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team’s role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that – OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we do about that? – I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I’m just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier. Thanks all! From:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx! Hi Everyone First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so. The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from. ==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever. The second is one I’d like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way. ==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency”. (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?) My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket) The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are. ==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead! My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I’d suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex. ==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category. I”ll be having a look at that third category My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not. ==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy Happy to discuss Holly On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:Kathy@kathykleiman.com>> wrote: Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion. Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All of these comments contain a clear call: - No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency. Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool? Best and tx, Kathy : Dear all, Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39. Apologies again for the inadvertent omission – they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I’ll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Hello Todd and everyone, Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list! Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members’ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don’t replace WG members’ reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG’s/Sub Team’s eagle eyes is the best arrangement. Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I’ve taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don’t believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I’ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure. On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd’s suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd’s initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn’t address either – so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate). BTW, Todd, maybe it’s my machine or more likely that I haven’t looked through it in detail, but I’m not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated …. ? Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way! Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com<mailto:Todd.Williams@turner.com>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai3@icann.org>> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan Am I the first to try this out? Cool. As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was helpful to illustrate where we’ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn might help us decide what we’ll need to do to get there. Specifically, I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I’d recommend that we do the same. Here are the two that I’d propose: 1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions of the Initial Report beyond Annex E? 2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address the arguments raised in these comments? I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it will help our sub-team “divide and conquer” the work that we have before us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I’m not really sure how we’d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose and/or publish absent a court order isn’t arguing for changes to Annex E; it’s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether. With those two buckets in mind, I’ve taken a first pass through the comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to make sure that they agree with how I’ve tentatively divided the comments? Once we’re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some members want to tackle the third “unclear” category) to start reviewing the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other questions that anybody wants to suggest). Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was compiled? I’m just curious because I want to make sure that our sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For example, I know that Turner’s comment (available here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnSR7.pd...) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn’t included in the attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted it. ☺ So I want to make sure that there aren’t other comments on Annex E that we also ought to be reviewing. Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody. Todd. Todd D. Williams Counsel Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. One CNN Center, 10 North Atlanta, Georgia 30303 P: 404-827-2234 F: 404-827-1994 todd.williams@turner.com<mailto:todd.williams@turner.com> · Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E. 1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach of material service terms such as Internet abuse) 2) Google 3) 1&1 Internet SE 4) Access Now 5) Endurance Int’l Group 6) Jeff Wheelhouse 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service terms such as net abuse) 8) Greg McMullen 9) Evelyn Aya Snow 10) Ralf Haring 11) Liam 12) Dr M Klinefelter 13) Sam 14) Dan M 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas 16) Not your business 17) Simon Kissane 18) TS 19) Cort Wee 20) Alex Xu 21) Kenneth Godwin 22) Shahed Ahmmed 23) Sebastian Broussier 24) Andrew Merenbach 25) Finn Ellis 26) Aaron Holmes 27) Michael Ekstrand 28) Homer 29) Donuts 30) Michael Ho 31) Key Systems * Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework. 1) BC 2) MPAA 3) ISPCP 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge 5) INTA 6) IACC 7) NCSG 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas 9) Cyberinvasion 10) Phil Crooker 11) Aaron Myers 12) Cui (ADNDRC) 13) Mike Fewings 14) Name withheld 15) Gary Miller 16) Byunghoon Choi 17) Reid Baker 18) Nick O’Dell 19) Time Warner 20) RIAA & IFPI 21) IPC 22) Thomas Smoonlock 23) Vanda Scartezini 24) Tim Kramer * Bucket Three: unclear. 1) Sven Slootweg 2) Brendan Conniff 3) Marc Schauber 4) Aaron Mason 5) Kevin Szprychel 6) Christopher 7) James Ford 8) Shantanu Gupta 9) Christopher Smith 10) Private 11) Robert Lukitsh 12) Adam Miller 13) Charles 14) Aaron Dalton 15) Stephen Black Wolf 16) Ian McNeil 17) Adam Creighton 18) Arthur Zonnenberg 19) Anand S. 20) Lucas Stadler 21) Alan _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3 _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai3 mailing list Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai3
Thanks to all for everyone’s hard work. I support the statement - with Kathy’s edits. As for bucket One, I agree with the first three, but am not sure where to put the 4th - where abuse cases are added. I am leaning towards counting those with Law Enforcement requests. Holly On 10 Aug 2015, at 8:40 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com> wrote:
Hi Todd and All, Nice job! I reviewed the entire document and attached is my crack at our summary. I think it includes everyone additions and edits to date (but please check!).
I've lost track of who drafted what sections, but I think we are moving in the right direction. Some really good work has been done. I made one small change and two bigger ones and few general edits. The small change is removing the reference to contested and uncontested edits since I am not sure what an uncontested edit and whether commenters would have contested it if they knew what the proposed edit would be. (Unfortunately, since our "Reply Comment" period was removed by ICANN, we don't have this important reply time to review others edits and support or contest them.).
I also added in two short paragraphs. The first one describes the Save Domains Privacy comments, the petition language, and the discussion now in place in our sub-team over the meaning of these comments. Perhaps others in the WG can help us shed light on the questions being raised in our sub-team.
The second paragraph summarizes the 11,000 Respect Our Privacy comments. They told us that "No one's personal information should be revealed without a court order," and of course, we should reflect them in our summary.
On my machine, my redlines appear in red, and the prior editor's redlines (for the paragraphs at the end starting "Finally, our sub-team reviewed and analyzed 21 miscellaneous comments...") appear in grey. I hope these redlines are clear for you too.
Best and enjoy the rest of the weekend, Kathy
:
Kathy:
Attached is my first crack at our portion of the summary (on the Bucket Two comments). Let me know if you have any suggested edits, additions, subtractions, etc.
Also, I’ve copied the entire sub-team mailing list on this email, for two reasons:
1) So that there is a transparent public record of any back-and-forth red-lining of the document that we may do; and 2) So that Sara and Holly for Bucket One, and Darcy for our miscellaneous bucket, can see what I envision for our summary report to the WG. If you all want to add your summaries to this one to make it consistent in terms of formatting, etc., feel free.
I had one thought Sara and Holly for Bucket One (which came to me as I was conceptually dividing our Bucket Two comments into general support, specific support, suggested changes by addition, suggested edits uncontested, suggested edits contested): it may be helpful for the WG if we divide our Bucket One comments into categories along a spectrum. As I envision it (in order along the spectrum):
1) No disclosure/publication ever. 2) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order. I would put the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments here. 3) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP). E.g., I think the Google comment would go here. 4) No disclosure/publication unless following a court order or other legal process (such as a UDRP), but with some exceptions for cases of abuse. E.g., I think the ICA and EasyDNS comments would go here.
For the WG’s sake, we may also want to distinguish between those Bucket One comments that couched their discussion of disclosure/publication in terms of what P/P Providers ought to be required to do (or not required to do) in response to external third-party disclosure requests such as from IP owners or LEA (e.g., the Google and Key Systems comments) vs. those Bucket One comments that simply said “no publication/disclosure absent a court order” without distinguishing b/w whether the impetus for the disclosure was an external third-party request or the P/P Provider’s own desire to disclose/publish (e.g., the 10,000+ “Respect our Privacy” comments).
Thanks all!
TW.
From: Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:06 AM To: Williams, Todd <Todd.Williams@turner.com>; Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Whoops, I left out Jawala at the bottom, who should go in bucket two. Sorry.
From: gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Williams, Todd Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 10:01 AM To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>; gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Yes, thanks Mary. Of the highlighted additions in the attached, I’ve added the comments from Stefan Grunder, Reagan Lynch, Reid Baker, and the Save Domain Privacy petitioners to the second bucket that Kathy and I are reviewing/summarizing (accept premise of Annex E, but with changes). I think the highlighted comments from Dan M, Simon Kissane, Adam Creighton, Jason Weinberg, J Wilson, Dylan Henderson, M.B., and the Respect our Privacy submissions should go in the first bucket that Holly and Sara are reviewing/summarizing (reject premise of Annex E). Thanks.
From: gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 6:47 PM To: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Tx Mary! Kathy : Thanks again, Todd, Kathy, Holly and everyone – this is just a note to follow up on one portion of the discussion during the WG call earlier today. I’ll be going through the current WG Public Comment Review Tool (Part 1, covering the WG’s preliminary recommendations #1 through #9) to pick out those additional comments that, though “attached” to a different recommendation or question, is actually more directly relevant to the scope of this Sub Team. What this means, I’m afraid, is that there will most likely be an updated version of the Sub Team’s Review Tool (i.e. the Word document that you’re working off of). I will try to get that to you all as soon as I possibly can – with the caveat that as I complete preparation of the WG Tool Part 2 (covering the remainder of the WG’s preliminary recommendations except for those being covered by the Sub Teams) there may yet be further updates.
I’m happy to help update any existing summary documents you may already have as a result, of course, and, Todd, to your point about adding an extra row to the existing Tool to reflect the Save Domain Privacy comment in their petition, I’m happy to do that (per Kathy’s suggestion on the call today) while I’m doing the current update anyway.
Thanks and cheers Mary
Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com> Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 09:55 To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>, Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net> Cc: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Thanks Kathy and Holly. Just to summarize where I think we are (and again, I’ve been working backward from what Sub-team 1.3.2 presented last week, which I’ve attached – I assume that what our sub-team will present next week will look something like that):
· First there will be a paragraph (or bullet point or however we want to style it) discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish under any circumstances. This section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue. · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that the WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, subpoena, or other legal process. Again, this section will discuss: how many of those comments were there, who did they come from, what did they argue, etc. I agree with Kathy that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions should be analyzed in this paragraph. I also agree with Holly’s point though that in this paragraph we should note that the “Respect our Privacy” submissions took a more extreme position than others (like Google’s, for example), in that they argued that P/P Providers can only disclose and/or publish following a court order, and didn’t accept that other legal or ICANN-recognized processes (such as a UDRP for example) could suffice. · Next there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that argued that our WG’s proposed accreditation standards should hold that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. My plan for this paragraph was to first have a general summary of whose comments fell in this category. And I agree with Kathy that the Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit here, in that “verifiable evidence of wrongdoing” is what II(A), (B), and (C) of Annex E contemplate. Following that summary, my plan was then to list each proposed change to the language of Annex E (perhaps in a bullet point format), followed by who recommended it, and what their arguments were for it. That said, I disagree with Kathy that each of those comments and all of those suggested changes will necessarily be to a “higher standard.” From my initial review, I think the comments are going to recommend changes in both directions, which we ought to reflect in the summary. · Finally there will be a paragraph discussing those comments that we’re not sure what to do with.
That’s how I see our task anyway. So far we have Sara and Holly writing the first draft of the first two paragraphs, me and Kathy writing the third, and Darcy writing the fourth (though of course we can all edit the final before it goes to the entire WG). Let me know if anybody else wants to join. And with that, my quick thoughts on some of the bigger-picture points below:
· Given that our summary will only be on what commenters said about Annex E, and given that Annex E doesn’t touch on LE requests, my thought is that we should leave analysis of comments on LE to the other sub-teams (I’m pretty sure LE would fall in both sub-team 1 and sub-team 4’s work). Not that I’m not interested in LE – just that we have plenty of work as it is, without duplicating work that is being handled by other sub-teams. · In response to Mary’s email (attached): I agree that I’m not sure that I see the utility of adding the form-based submissions to the compiled template/matrix Word doc. As I understand it, the attached Word doc is just a tool to help us get to our final work product, which is the summary presentation to the rest of the WG. If we make a point to discuss the form-based submissions in our summary presentation to the rest of the WG (which, as I noted above, we’re certainly planning to do), then I don’t see why we’d need to add columns to the attached Word doc for each of those. I mean, if somebody wants to take the time to do so, that’s fine. I just don’t see how that helps us get to our final work product. · Finally, one quick point: I see our sub-team’s role, and the role of the summary that we are to present to the entire WG next week, as purely descriptive. In other words: what did the comments say? To the extent that there is going to be any normative or substantive discussion that goes one step beyond that – OK, this is what the comments said, but now what do we do about that? – I think that has to be left to the entire WG to debate after we present our summary. I’m just throwing out that reminder b/c I think it will help keep our work easier.
Thanks all!
From: gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 5:49 AM To: Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net> Cc: gnso-ppsai3@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] UPDATED Public Comment Review Tool - questions about inclusion
Hi All, I support the division of comments into buckets as Todd has created and Holly has revised. Do we have four buckets now? Below (and preceeded by "==>") I show where the two large groups of missing comments might go. Tx! Hi Everyone
First- sorry not to follow up sooner. And Todd - I agree with the refined break up into three buckets- with an additional element or so.
The first category is clearly no, not ever, under any circumstances. All that is needed from us is to count the comments and where they are from.
==> So bucket one, no disclosure ever.
The second is one I’d like to expand a bit - and see where that gets us. As Todd and I suggest, it is a category that specifically states the need for a legal process. (it is framed variously as court order court process, Subpoena) My suggestion is that the overall heading is no reveal unless there has been a legal process of some sort in the relevant jurisdiction. The wrinkle here is that, under an ICANN dispute resolution process (e.g., UDRP) where details of the customer would be revealed. Given this is a recognised ICANN process in which details are already revealed, my suggestion is to characterise th category in that way. ==> Bucket Two, disclosure of data to private parties and law enforcement only subject to court order. This is where the "Respect our Privacy" thousands of individual submissions fits: "No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency”. (Mary, do we happen to have a final count of these individual submission?)
My reading of both categories is to say that Annex E is not necessary for either. (and Kathy - the comments you refer to below would fit into the first or second basket)
The third category is the only one that goes beyond what is already required to suggest there may be other circumstances where the contact details of the customer would be revealed to a third party that is either not part of an ICANN process or a court process. And the challenge will be to work through what those situations are.
==> Bucket Three (formerly Two) is now the one that accepts the premise of Annex E, as Holly and Todd have laid out, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework to the higher standards requested by commenters. The question for me is what bucket the 11,000 Save Domain Privacy petition signatories fit in: they wrote "Privacy providers should not forced to reveal my private information without verifiable evidence of wrongdoing." Can Annex E be revised to raise the standard to require "verifiable evidence of wrongdoing" w/o a court order? If so, what changes must be made in Annex E to meet this higher standard? If not, do these 11,000+ petition signatures really belong in [revised] Bucket 2, court order? I look forward to our discussions ahead!
My next query is where we put Law Enforcement Agency requests. If they have a warrant, I’d suggest that we put them in the second category - in most jurisdictions, warrants are not granted without some kind of judicial oversight. Without a warrant (or some judicial oversight), requests by Law Enforcement/Security requests would be under some kind of Annex. ==> Holly, do I understand right that this might be a new Bucket Four - LE w/o CO -- Law Enforcement w/o Court Order. I think it makes sense and I would like to see where the comments fall on this issue. Plus Annex E is only for private individuals/private attorneys/private companies. So now seems to be a good time to break out informal LE requests into its own category.
I”ll be having a look at that third category
My other way of looking at this issue is whether or not the relevant p/p provider must make some sort of judgment call. For the first category - the answer is a simple NO. For the second category, there is either some sort of judicially approved document for that jurisdiction or an approved ICANN process - or not. It is only in the third category that the providers must make a judgment call on whether the requirements are met, or not.
==> Quick note, we still need the miscellaneous bucket that Todd created for "unclear" bucket, so [renamed] Bucket Five = unclear? Best, Kathy
Happy to discuss
Holly
On 4 Aug 2015, at 8:44 am, Kathy Kleiman <Kathy@kathykleiman.com> wrote:
Hi Mary and All, Glad to be with you on this subteam 3 and looking forward to our discussion.
Mary, I was very glad to see that Turner Broadcasting comments had been included in this comment summary. Let me ask about the 10,000+ comments we received, the vast majority entitled: ICANN- Respect Our Privacy. All of these comments contain a clear call: - No one’s personal information should be revealed without a court order, regardless of whether the request comes from a private individual or law enforcement agency.
Sorry if I missed it, but is this call from so many thousands of commenters for not disclosing p/p data to a private individual (which would include a private lawyer) reflected in our comment summary tool?
Best and tx, Kathy
: Dear all,
Please find an updated Word document that now INCLUDES the extensive comments from Turner Broadcasting System (once again, thanks for spotting this omission, Todd!). They have been inserted into ROW 19 for the first question/topic (General Comments) on PAGE 16, and ROW 7 for the second question/topic (Specific Comments on the Framework Language) on PAGE 39.
Apologies again for the inadvertent omission – they have been added to these rows and pages simply to retain the chronology of when they were received, to maintain consistency across all the templates. I’ll update the Sub Team wiki page accordingly.
Thanks and cheers Mary
Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 18:06 To: "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com>, "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan
Hello Todd and everyone,
Welcome to the Sub Team 3 (Annex E) mailing list!
Todd - I think you just found an omission from staff (me), for which I apologize. I definitely had the Turner comment in my compilation of comments and documents, but I think what happened is that in formatting the table for the Word document I somehow managed to edit that out. I am very sorry, and thanks for noting it! This is exactly why staff welcomes WG members’ questions, and why we emphasize that our compilation/edits don’t replace WG members’ reading the comments themselves if possible. At the same time, I do hope you all know that we try our best to do as thorough and comprehensive a job as possible, so a combination of our efforts and a WG’s/Sub Team’s eagle eyes is the best arrangement.
Basically, we read through all the comments that appeared to address specific recommendations and/or open questions, and we also read all the online template responses that do the same. The Word document is therefore the compilation of all of these, tailored to each Sub Team (or the full WG, as appropriate). I’ve taken a quick look through my documents/collected comments and don’t believe I have missed out any others; however, I will do a more thorough check shortly on all the Word documents I’ve compiled to date for all the Sub Teams, just to be sure.
On the approach - from the staff perspective, Todd’s suggested approach seems to make sense, and would align pretty well with what we ourselves would probably have suggested. You could start with two smaller groups to tackle the two categories suggested, based on Todd’s initial sweep, and in doing so also note any comments that didn’t address either – so that they can either be referred to the appropriate Sub Team (if any) or considered by the full WG (if appropriate).
BTW, Todd, maybe it’s my machine or more likely that I haven’t looked through it in detail, but I’m not seeing your comments/additions/edits in the document you circulated …. ?
Thanks for kicking things off, and do let me know if you need assistance from staff in any way!
Cheers Mary
Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org
From: <gnso-ppsai3-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of "Williams, Todd" <Todd.Williams@turner.com> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 16:52 To: "gnso-ppsai3@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai3@icann.org> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai3] Thoughts on a work plan
Am I the first to try this out? Cool.
As I mentioned in my email on Tuesday (attached), I thought that the presentation that we had on our last call from the 1.3.2 sub-team was helpful to illustrate where we’ll need to be by 8-11, which in turn might help us decide what we’ll need to do to get there. Specifically, I thought it helped that the 1.3.2 sub-team divided their work into two basic questions, and then presented separately on each. I’d recommend that we do the same. Here are the two that I’d propose:
1) Those comments that rejected the premise of Annex E, and instead argued that P/P Providers can never disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process authorizing them to do so. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What ramifications would these arguments have on other portions of the Initial Report beyond Annex E? 2) Those comments that accepted the premise of Annex E that P/P Providers can sometimes disclose and/or publish absent a court order, subpoena, or other legal process, but then offered thoughts as to whether and how the Disclosure Framework outlined in Annex E ought to be modified. Presumably this group would present on: · How many of these comments were there? · Who did they come from? · What arguments did they make? · What potential changes to Annex E could the WG make to address the arguments raised in these comments?
I offer those two buckets for a couple of reasons. First, I think it will help our sub-team “divide and conquer” the work that we have before us (much like the 1.3.2 sub-team did). Second, I’m not really sure how we’d otherwise substantively reconcile those two buckets of comments. A comment that argues that P/P Providers should not be allowed to disclose and/or publish absent a court order isn’t arguing for changes to Annex E; it’s arguing to scrap Annex E altogether.
With those two buckets in mind, I’ve taken a first pass through the comments in the Review Tool Word Document that Mary circulated (attached). My thoughts below. First, can everybody double-check to make sure that they agree with how I’ve tentatively divided the comments? Once we’re comfortable with that allocation, then perhaps the next step would be to divide our sub-team into two (or three, if some members want to tackle the third “unclear” category) to start reviewing the comments in each bucket and then drafting two documents to present to the WG answering the questions outlined above (and any other questions that anybody wants to suggest).
Finally, one last question for Staff: can you give us a little bit of information on the methodology of how the attached Word document was compiled? I’m just curious because I want to make sure that our sub-team is comfortable that what we are reviewing is exhaustive. For example, I know that Turner’s comment (available here:http://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-ppsai-initial-05may15/pdfrXQ3VcnSR7.pd...) had some thoughts on Annex E. Yet it wasn’t included in the attached. And I only know that it mentions Annex E because I drafted it. J So I want to make sure that there aren’t other comments on Annex E that we also ought to be reviewing.
Thanks. Look forward to working with everybody.
Todd.
Todd D. Williams Counsel Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. One CNN Center, 10 North Atlanta, Georgia 30303 P: 404-827-2234 F: 404-827-1994 todd.williams@turner.com
· Bucket One: rejects the premise of Annex E. 1) Internet Commerce Association (though with carve-out for breach of material service terms such as Internet abuse) 2) Google 3) 1&1 Internet SE 4) Access Now 5) Endurance Int’l Group 6) Jeff Wheelhouse 7) EasyDNS (though with same carve-out as ICA for breach of service terms such as net abuse) 8) Greg McMullen 9) Evelyn Aya Snow 10) Ralf Haring 11) Liam 12) Dr M Klinefelter 13) Sam 14) Dan M 15) Adrian Valeriu Ispas 16) Not your business 17) Simon Kissane 18) TS 19) Cort Wee 20) Alex Xu 21) Kenneth Godwin 22) Shahed Ahmmed 23) Sebastian Broussier 24) Andrew Merenbach 25) Finn Ellis 26) Aaron Holmes 27) Michael Ekstrand 28) Homer 29) Donuts 30) Michael Ho 31) Key Systems Bucket Two: accepts the premise of Annex E, but offers thoughts on how to change the Disclosure Framework. 1) BC 2) MPAA 3) ISPCP 4) CDT, Open Technology Institute & Public Knowledge 5) INTA 6) IACC 7) NCSG 8) Shardul Amarchand Mangaldas 9) Cyberinvasion 10) Phil Crooker 11) Aaron Myers 12) Cui (ADNDRC) 13) Mike Fewings 14) Name withheld 15) Gary Miller 16) Byunghoon Choi 17) Reid Baker 18) Nick O’Dell 19) Time Warner 20) RIAA & IFPI 21) IPC 22) Thomas Smoonlock 23) Vanda Scartezini 24) Tim Kramer Bucket Three: unclear. 1) Sven Slootweg 2) Brendan Conniff 3) Marc Schauber 4) Aaron Mason 5) Kevin Szprychel 6) Christopher 7) James Ford 8) Shantanu Gupta 9) Christopher Smith 10) Private 11) Robert Lukitsh 12) Adam Miller 13) Charles 14) Aaron Dalton 15) Stephen Black Wolf 16) Ian McNeil 17) Adam Creighton 18) Arthur Zonnenberg 19) Anand S. 20) Lucas Stadler 21) Alan
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participants (6)
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Darcy Southwell -
Holly Raiche -
Kathy Kleiman -
Mary Wong -
Sara Bockey -
Williams, Todd