Hi Paul, I agree that non-commercial users and consumers may need protection as well, but I am just not sure how this relates to privacy services at all. How does knowing the underlying data of a privacy service help a scam victim? If there is illegal use, odds are the underlying data will not be of much value either. Criminals rarely leave their home address on file anywhere near their crime scenes. Surely preferred venue for addressing such abuse by consumers is their local police station, who will initiate an investigation and can get a court order if the substance of the case bears that out. Across borders, legal assistance is available. A British law enforcement official has proper venues to request legal assistance from his German counterpart, for example. Which leaves us with the rights and interests of those that use these services for legitimate reasons. We need to ensure their interests are protected too. For reasons, go look at the hundreds of public comments where users detail why they NEED strong protections of their privacy that cannot be easily circumvented. Am 20.07.2015 um 18:53 schrieb McGrady, Paul D.:

Thanks Volker. For the benefit of the others on the list, I am pulling up a copy of your original email to me so that I can be read along with your additional thoughts below.

Also, thank you for this statement in your post below:

“I also think that the importance of the debate is of the essence here, but that does not only include the interests of IP and trademark rights holders but also those of those affected by anything we come up with, i.e. civil society, private individuals and organizations, and their rights and interests”

which appears to adopt my concern for the protection of non-commercial users who are victims of scams, crime, etc. While I thought it was interesting that you attempted to bring in IP and trademark rights holders into a conversation about non-commercial user’s need to get access to information about criminals and others abusing them and the DNS, I’m not sure that simply beating the IP/Trademark Holder straw man is that same thing as putting forward substantive ideas on how to balance in the concerns of non-commercial, non-DNS customer consumers with the “mandatory litigation” framework you are proposing. I again welcome any substantive comments you may have regarding how we protect those consumers – even if they do not own a domain name or pay for P/P services – within the mandatory litigation paradigm which would result in months-long delay to get an order from the victim’s court served on a P/P service countries away.

Thanks in advance for your substantive thoughts on how to balance these interests.

Best,

Paul

*From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] *Sent:* Monday, July 20, 2015 11:16 AM *To:* McGrady, Paul D.; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments

Hi Paul,

I intended to post to the list, apologies if I misclicked.

I wanted to say that the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. No one is served if the justice system takes months to process a simple request, OTOH, this is not a reason for circumventing due process. Slow justice is better than no justice or vigilantism.

I also think that the importance of the debate is of the essence here, but that does not only include the interests of IP and trademark rights holders but also those of those affected by anything we come up with, i.e. civil society, private individuals and organizations, and their rights and interests.

Best,

Volker

Am 20.07.2015 um 17:30 schrieb McGrady, Paul D.:

Thanks Volker. I don’t think your comment appreciates the importance of the debate. Is there a reason that it was sent only to me and not to the list? Any object to me posting it on the list? Thanks.

*From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] *Sent:* Monday, July 20, 2015 10:26 AM *To:* McGrady, Paul D. *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments

Hi Paul,

it seems a good thing not to be in a common law country then, as over here usually a different axiom applies: "justice hurried along is bad justice". If a case is there, a court will be able to see that and issue an order. Getting injunctive relief can take as little as half a day.

Best,

Volker

Am 20.07.2015 um 17:15 schrieb McGrady, Paul D.:

Thanks Volker. I’m pretty sure it won’t do any good to get drawn into a conversation about the consequences of service providers being and permanently staying the RNH, since that is not what is really being discussed. The conversation has evolved well past that point and a long, long time ago.

I would, however, appreciate your substantive thoughts on how we balance the need for consumers who are victims of scams and crime (even if those consumers don’t happen to be domain name registrants or P/P customers) within the “court order only” paradigm which on its face is woefully inadequate to bring about a timely remedy. It is now axiomatic in common law jurisdictions that “Justice delayed is justice denied.”

I’m looking forward to your reply. Thanks for your time.

Best,

Paul

*From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] *Sent:* Monday, July 20, 2015 9:03 AM *To:* McGrady, Paul D.; James Gannon; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments

Privacy or proxy services do not conflict with section 3.3.1.6 of the RAA (nor RA) as formally, the service provider is the RNH in a proxy form.

Volker

Am 20.07.2015 um 14:25 schrieb McGrady, Paul D.:

Thanks James. The ship has already sailed on option a). See 3.3.1.6 of the RA noting the mandatory requirement of the disclosure of “The name and postal address of the Registered Name Holder.” What this team is discussing is how to develop an framework for exceptions to 3.3.1.6 that does not create a safe haven for human traffickers, cyber-bullies, and other nefarious types that would harm non-commercial users of the Internet. It is not within our remit to undo 3.3.1.6, no matter how many form comments are posted asking that we do so. Our remit is finding what circumstances warrant the exception through allowing WHOIS modification and which do not, the means to communicate to someone who is legitimately using such WHOIS modification services, and the terms upon which such allowable WHOIS modification will be terminated if it is being used to abuse others.

Even if abolishing 3.3.1.6 were a possibility and the DNS wasn’t built on a series of contracts (which it is), I see no particular upside to telling parents of children being bullied online, geriatric victims of banking scams, and targets of pay-in-advance credit offers that they have to wait months while their local court order requiring disclosure makes its way through the Hague Convention service process in order to be effectuated by a far-away privacy service. Although we have heard much about protecting the rights of non-commercial users of the Internet who happen to be domain name registrants as well and who are using P/P services (and we should be concerned about them), we also need to keep in mind the other non-commercial users of the Internet who will also be affected – even if they have not contributed financially to the system by purchasing a domain name.

I for one hope we can get back on track and discuss the substantive, relevant comments and reach final consensus on the handful of outstanding issues and get a report in to the GNSO that reflects a sensible balance.

Regards,

Paul

*From:*gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *James Gannon *Sent:* Monday, July 20, 2015 5:51 AM *To:* Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments

Agreed Volker I would put my analysis in set A aswell.

-James

*From:*gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Volker Greimann *Sent:* Monday, July 20, 2015 11:37 AM *To:* gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments

Hi Steve,

these comments can be read in different ways:

a) ICANN should not implement policy that requires disclosure without a court order, or b) no disclosure should be allowed without a court order.

I tend to interpret the comments as being in the a) column.

Best,

Volker

Am 17.07.2015 um 21:42 schrieb Metalitz, Steven:

No, James, we should certainly consider those concerns but not necessarily change the report.

The single concern raised more often than any other, I am positive, is that proxy services should not be permitted to disclose any information on their customer without a court order. That is not a standard that your service or any other that I know of can meet. We can change our report to make that a requirement for privacy/proxy service providers. Should we?

Steve

*From:*James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com] *Sent:* Friday, July 17, 2015 3:35 PM *To:* Metalitz, Steven *Cc:* Kathy Kleiman; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments

Steve:

With respect, if several thousand commenters raised issues that concern them, but are not addressed by our report, the our focus should be on changing the report, not discounting the comments.

Thank you,

J.

____________

James Bladel

GoDaddy

On Jul 17, 2015, at 21:20, Metalitz, Steven <met@msk.com <mailto:met@msk.com>> wrote:

I am all in favor of people identifying topics they believe need to be addressed by the WG. However, Kathy, I have to disagree with your premise, which is that the ten thousand plus comments reflect responses to our questions or even statements of agreement or disagreement to our consensus positions or report proposals. A much smaller (though still significant) number of comments do that, and those should be our top priority for review and response. But the vast majority of comments clearly are not responses to our report. These mass comments raise a very limited number of issues, which I don’t think we will that much difficulty dealing with once we have addressed the responses to our questions and the reasoned statements of agreement or disagreement with specific proposals we have made.

Let’s get started on the more substantive comments, starting with the questions we did pose. We have subteams forming to start to tackle that, and the staff (and Graeme!) are providing some tools to try to help facilitate that. For those who don’t wish to join subteams, again, I agree it would be useful to identify (as you put it) the “major issues and concerns” that you find in the comments, with citations to those comments that you believe raise those major issues and concerns.

Steve

*From:*gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Kathy Kleiman *Sent:* Thursday, July 16, 2015 6:34 PM *To:* gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> *Subject:* [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments

Hi Don, Steve, Graeme, Mary and all WG members, I would like recommend that we take a slightly different approach. We received over ten thousand comments, many coming from those who do not ordinarily participate in the ICANN process. They wrote to us us not only in response to our specific questions, but also to share agreement (and disagreement) to our consensus positions/report proposals, and to explain why proxy/privacy registrations are important to them. There has been a huge outpouring particularly on the last issue.

While a few topics for cataloging these comments were presented on the call, with great respect, I do not think we have dealt with or cataloged all of the major issues and concerns raised by the comments yet. Before we leap forward to subteams and analysis, shouldn't we ask further, in writing, and with the whole of the WG participating -- have we gotten the topics right? Have we created sufficient topics to allow us to catalog the broad range of information, concerns and comments shared with us by so many commenters?

I would like to request that we be able to take big breath, and a slightly (only slightly!) different approach. In preparation for Tuesday's call, could we all skim the comments -- with our array of expertise, insight, knowledge of aspects of our commenter base -- to come up with topics that we think the WG should evaluate in tour review? Perhaps if we can circulate the topics online, and then discuss them on Tuesday.

Then we discuss how these topics/this substance might be overlaid on the subteam process laid out below and shared for the first time on last week's call. We will then have both substance and process! And we will know that we have considered all of the major issues arising from these important comments.

If we go forward now without this evaluation, I fear we may be missing much of what the comments have to offer.

Best and tx, Kathy

*From:* gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Mary Wong

*Sent:*14 July 2015 23:50 *To:* gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> *Subject:* [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A proposed approach for reviewing public comments

Dear WG members,

Following from the WG call earlier today, the co-chairs and staff after some consultation would like to propose the following approach for your consideration:

_1. Use of Sub Teams for Specific Topics_:

* Sub-teams comprising a few WG volunteers each can be formed to do the initial review of public comments received on the three topics suggested by Steve on the call, i.e. (1) Section 1.3.2 of the Initial Report (on escalation of relay requests and the handling of disclosure/publication requests from third parties other than IP rights holders); (2) Section 1.3.3 (on the open question regarding online financial transactions); and (3) Annex E (the Illustrative Disclosure Framework). * To assist the WG evaluate the usefulness of sub teams, a sub team for Section 1.3.2 can be formed first and serve as a “test case” for the exercise. * As outlined on the call, a sub team will do a “first pass” through a template, based on the Public Comment Review Tool, that staff will populate with all the input received on that particular issue. The sub team will report back to the full WG in a timely fashion, including suggesting a WG response and/or proposed action in relation to the comments received. * Sub teams may elect to do their work via email and online tools (e.g. Google Docs or a wiki page), with or without supplemental conference calls. Any calls will be recorded and transcribed for transparency purposes, and drafts and other documents prepared using online tools will also be made available to the full WG. (Do note, however, that depending on call scheduling and timing, staff support may not be available for all requested calls if several sub teams are used concurrently.)

*PLEASE VOLUNTEER FOR SUB TEAM 1.3.2 IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN ASSISTING WITH THIS INITIAL REVIEW. *Staff will endeavor to provide the template tool for 1.3.2 to the sub team as soon as possible, hopefully by Monday.

_2. Full WG Review of Other Comments to Continue in Parallel_:

* Staff will “collapse” (per James’ suggestion on the call) all those template responses received that were simply a Yes or No answer to a question, without any further comment added – these will be reflected in the Public Comment Review Tool accordingly, as a single collective entry. The current Tool (covering Preliminary Recommendations 1 through 9) will be updated in time for the WG to begin this review on the next call.

_3. Collated Information_:

* In addition to the updated spreadsheet just circulated by Graeme, we can also send you archived mail files of the contributions received to the public comment forum, should you or your group wish to conduct searches through each comment yourselves.

We hope the above will be helpful in facilitating good progress on the work to be done in preparation for the Final Report.

Thanks and cheers

Mary

Mary Wong

Senior Policy Director

Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)

Telephone: +1 603 574 4889

Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>

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-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.

Hi Paul, I am sure these are process questions of inter-jurisdictional nature. I would presume these are best left to the governments of the world to decide upon. The current processes for cross-border law enforcement assistance are based on international agreements beteen countries and if the governments of these countries saw a need to strengthen or speed up the reach of their law enforcement agencies they would be implementing faster processes. In the meantime, the victim could also complaint ot law enforcement at the location of the service, instead of his own LEA if he is worried about a delay caused by jurisdictional questions. I agree that as the internet is international, some tools of the past do not work as well as they did in years past, but it is up to the governments of the world to solve the jurisdictional and process issues; it is not up to ICANN. In any case, you completely ignored my argument (or question) that regulation of privacy services would in no way help those bullied teenagers or scammed elderly couples. Protection of such users is a problem well beyond online privacy services and would exist exactly in the same manner with or without privacy services. So your argument seems to me like a red herring. Best, Volker Am 20.07.2015 um 20:13 schrieb McGrady, Paul D.:

Hi Volker,

Your somewhat dismissive suggestion to “file a police report” doesn’t reflect:

·The time and difficulties of getting an indictment so that a court order can be issued;

·Getting that court order enforced in jurisdictions that do not cooperate with the particular home jurisdiction of the victim; and

·The seriousness of the threats which consumers face, especially children, when using the Internet for non-commercial purposes.

Unfortunately, the news services share a steady stream of horrifying stories of teenagers who harm themselves due to cyberbullying or elderly couples who lose entire life savings in online scams. Surely we must take their interests seriously, even if no one alerted them to file a comment.

As you know from my prior posts, I don’t disagree with the notion that “the rights and interests of those that use these services for legitimate reasons” are important interests. They just can’t be the only interests taken into account, which is exactly what the “litigation only” approach does.

Again, if you have any substantive suggestions on how to implement “litigation only” in a way that takes into account the need to protect non-commercial users of the Internet, even if they aren’t buying domain names or paying for privacy services, I would welcome hearing them.

Regards,

Paul

*From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] *Sent:* Monday, July 20, 2015 12:25 PM *To:* McGrady, Paul D.; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments

Hi Paul,

I agree that non-commercial users and consumers may need protection as well, but I am just not sure how this relates to privacy services at all. How does knowing the underlying data of a privacy service help a scam victim? If there is illegal use, odds are the underlying data will not be of much value either. Criminals rarely leave their home address on file anywhere near their crime scenes.

Surely preferred venue for addressing such abuse by consumers is their local police station, who will initiate an investigation and can get a court order if the substance of the case bears that out. Across borders, legal assistance is available. A British law enforcement official has proper venues to request legal assistance from his German counterpart, for example.

Which leaves us with the rights and interests of those that use these services for legitimate reasons. We need to ensure their interests are protected too. For reasons, go look at the hundreds of public comments where users detail why they NEED strong protections of their privacy that cannot be easily circumvented.

Am 20.07.2015 um 18:53 schrieb McGrady, Paul D.:

Thanks Volker. For the benefit of the others on the list, I am pulling up a copy of your original email to me so that I can be read along with your additional thoughts below.

imap://vgreimann%40key-systems%2Enet@mail-01.key-systems.net:993/fetch%3EUID%3E/INBOX%3E177920?header=quotebody&part=1.2&filename=image001.jpg

Also, thank you for this statement in your post below:

“I also think that the importance of the debate is of the essence here, but that does not only include the interests of IP and trademark rights holders but also those of those affected by anything we come up with, i.e. civil society, private individuals and organizations, and their rights and interests”

which appears to adopt my concern for the protection of non-commercial users who are victims of scams, crime, etc. While I thought it was interesting that you attempted to bring in IP and trademark rights holders into a conversation about non-commercial user’s need to get access to information about criminals and others abusing them and the DNS, I’m not sure that simply beating the IP/Trademark Holder straw man is that same thing as putting forward substantive ideas on how to balance in the concerns of non-commercial, non-DNS customer consumers with the “mandatory litigation” framework you are proposing. I again welcome any substantive comments you may have regarding how we protect those consumers – even if they do not own a domain name or pay for P/P services – within the mandatory litigation paradigm which would result in months-long delay to get an order from the victim’s court served on a P/P service countries away.

Thanks in advance for your substantive thoughts on how to balance these interests.

Best,

Paul

*From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] *Sent:* Monday, July 20, 2015 11:16 AM *To:* McGrady, Paul D.; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments

Hi Paul,

I intended to post to the list, apologies if I misclicked.

I wanted to say that the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. No one is served if the justice system takes months to process a simple request, OTOH, this is not a reason for circumventing due process. Slow justice is better than no justice or vigilantism.

I also think that the importance of the debate is of the essence here, but that does not only include the interests of IP and trademark rights holders but also those of those affected by anything we come up with, i.e. civil society, private individuals and organizations, and their rights and interests.

Best,

Volker

Am 20.07.2015 um 17:30 schrieb McGrady, Paul D.:

Thanks Volker. I don’t think your comment appreciates the importance of the debate. Is there a reason that it was sent only to me and not to the list? Any object to me posting it on the list? Thanks.

*From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] *Sent:* Monday, July 20, 2015 10:26 AM *To:* McGrady, Paul D. *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments

Hi Paul,

it seems a good thing not to be in a common law country then, as over here usually a different axiom applies: "justice hurried along is bad justice". If a case is there, a court will be able to see that and issue an order. Getting injunctive relief can take as little as half a day.

Best,

Volker

Am 20.07.2015 um 17:15 schrieb McGrady, Paul D.:

Thanks Volker. I’m pretty sure it won’t do any good to get drawn into a conversation about the consequences of service providers being and permanently staying the RNH, since that is not what is really being discussed. The conversation has evolved well past that point and a long, long time ago.

I would, however, appreciate your substantive thoughts on how we balance the need for consumers who are victims of scams and crime (even if those consumers don’t happen to be domain name registrants or P/P customers) within the “court order only” paradigm which on its face is woefully inadequate to bring about a timely remedy. It is now axiomatic in common law jurisdictions that “Justice delayed is justice denied.”

I’m looking forward to your reply. Thanks for your time.

Best,

Paul

*From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] *Sent:* Monday, July 20, 2015 9:03 AM *To:* McGrady, Paul D.; James Gannon; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments

Privacy or proxy services do not conflict with section 3.3.1.6 of the RAA (nor RA) as formally, the service provider is the RNH in a proxy form.

Volker

Am 20.07.2015 um 14:25 schrieb McGrady, Paul D.:

Thanks James. The ship has already sailed on option a). See 3.3.1.6 of the RA noting the mandatory requirement of the disclosure of “The name and postal address of the Registered Name Holder.” What this team is discussing is how to develop an framework for exceptions to 3.3.1.6 that does not create a safe haven for human traffickers, cyber-bullies, and other nefarious types that would harm non-commercial users of the Internet. It is not within our remit to undo 3.3.1.6, no matter how many form comments are posted asking that we do so. Our remit is finding what circumstances warrant the exception through allowing WHOIS modification and which do not, the means to communicate to someone who is legitimately using such WHOIS modification services, and the terms upon which such allowable WHOIS modification will be terminated if it is being used to abuse others.

Even if abolishing 3.3.1.6 were a possibility and the DNS wasn’t built on a series of contracts (which it is), I see no particular upside to telling parents of children being bullied online, geriatric victims of banking scams, and targets of pay-in-advance credit offers that they have to wait months while their local court order requiring disclosure makes its way through the Hague Convention service process in order to be effectuated by a far-away privacy service. Although we have heard much about protecting the rights of non-commercial users of the Internet who happen to be domain name registrants as well and who are using P/P services (and we should be concerned about them), we also need to keep in mind the other non-commercial users of the Internet who will also be affected – even if they have not contributed financially to the system by purchasing a domain name.

I for one hope we can get back on track and discuss the substantive, relevant comments and reach final consensus on the handful of outstanding issues and get a report in to the GNSO that reflects a sensible balance.

Regards,

Paul

*From:*gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *James Gannon *Sent:* Monday, July 20, 2015 5:51 AM *To:* Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments

Agreed Volker I would put my analysis in set A aswell.

-James

*From:*gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Volker Greimann *Sent:* Monday, July 20, 2015 11:37 AM *To:* gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments

Hi Steve,

these comments can be read in different ways:

a) ICANN should not implement policy that requires disclosure without a court order, or b) no disclosure should be allowed without a court order.

I tend to interpret the comments as being in the a) column.

Best,

Volker

Am 17.07.2015 um 21:42 schrieb Metalitz, Steven:

No, James, we should certainly consider those concerns but not necessarily change the report.

The single concern raised more often than any other, I am positive, is that proxy services should not be permitted to disclose any information on their customer without a court order. That is not a standard that your service or any other that I know of can meet. We can change our report to make that a requirement for privacy/proxy service providers. Should we?

Steve

*From:*James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com] *Sent:* Friday, July 17, 2015 3:35 PM *To:* Metalitz, Steven *Cc:* Kathy Kleiman; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments

Steve:

With respect, if several thousand commenters raised issues that concern them, but are not addressed by our report, the our focus should be on changing the report, not discounting the comments.

Thank you,

J.

____________

James Bladel

GoDaddy

On Jul 17, 2015, at 21:20, Metalitz, Steven <met@msk.com <mailto:met@msk.com>> wrote:

I am all in favor of people identifying topics they believe need to be addressed by the WG. However, Kathy, I have to disagree with your premise, which is that the ten thousand plus comments reflect responses to our questions or even statements of agreement or disagreement to our consensus positions or report proposals. A much smaller (though still significant) number of comments do that, and those should be our top priority for review and response. But the vast majority of comments clearly are not responses to our report. These mass comments raise a very limited number of issues, which I don’t think we will that much difficulty dealing with once we have addressed the responses to our questions and the reasoned statements of agreement or disagreement with specific proposals we have made.

Let’s get started on the more substantive comments, starting with the questions we did pose. We have subteams forming to start to tackle that, and the staff (and Graeme!) are providing some tools to try to help facilitate that. For those who don’t wish to join subteams, again, I agree it would be useful to identify (as you put it) the “major issues and concerns” that you find in the comments, with citations to those comments that you believe raise those major issues and concerns.

Steve

*From:*gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Kathy Kleiman *Sent:* Thursday, July 16, 2015 6:34 PM *To:* gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> *Subject:* [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments

Hi Don, Steve, Graeme, Mary and all WG members, I would like recommend that we take a slightly different approach. We received over ten thousand comments, many coming from those who do not ordinarily participate in the ICANN process. They wrote to us us not only in response to our specific questions, but also to share agreement (and disagreement) to our consensus positions/report proposals, and to explain why proxy/privacy registrations are important to them. There has been a huge outpouring particularly on the last issue.

While a few topics for cataloging these comments were presented on the call, with great respect, I do not think we have dealt with or cataloged all of the major issues and concerns raised by the comments yet. Before we leap forward to subteams and analysis, shouldn't we ask further, in writing, and with the whole of the WG participating -- have we gotten the topics right? Have we created sufficient topics to allow us to catalog the broad range of information, concerns and comments shared with us by so many commenters?

I would like to request that we be able to take big breath, and a slightly (only slightly!) different approach. In preparation for Tuesday's call, could we all skim the comments -- with our array of expertise, insight, knowledge of aspects of our commenter base -- to come up with topics that we think the WG should evaluate in tour review? Perhaps if we can circulate the topics online, and then discuss them on Tuesday.

Then we discuss how these topics/this substance might be overlaid on the subteam process laid out below and shared for the first time on last week's call. We will then have both substance and process! And we will know that we have considered all of the major issues arising from these important comments.

If we go forward now without this evaluation, I fear we may be missing much of what the comments have to offer.

Best and tx, Kathy

*From:* gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Mary Wong

*Sent:*14 July 2015 23:50 *To:* gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> *Subject:* [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A proposed approach for reviewing public comments

Dear WG members,

Following from the WG call earlier today, the co-chairs and staff after some consultation would like to propose the following approach for your consideration:

_1. Use of Sub Teams for Specific Topics_:

* Sub-teams comprising a few WG volunteers each can be formed to do the initial review of public comments received on the three topics suggested by Steve on the call, i.e. (1) Section 1.3.2 of the Initial Report (on escalation of relay requests and the handling of disclosure/publication requests from third parties other than IP rights holders); (2) Section 1.3.3 (on the open question regarding online financial transactions); and (3) Annex E (the Illustrative Disclosure Framework). * To assist the WG evaluate the usefulness of sub teams, a sub team for Section 1.3.2 can be formed first and serve as a “test case” for the exercise. * As outlined on the call, a sub team will do a “first pass” through a template, based on the Public Comment Review Tool, that staff will populate with all the input received on that particular issue. The sub team will report back to the full WG in a timely fashion, including suggesting a WG response and/or proposed action in relation to the comments received. * Sub teams may elect to do their work via email and online tools (e.g. Google Docs or a wiki page), with or without supplemental conference calls. Any calls will be recorded and transcribed for transparency purposes, and drafts and other documents prepared using online tools will also be made available to the full WG. (Do note, however, that depending on call scheduling and timing, staff support may not be available for all requested calls if several sub teams are used concurrently.)

*PLEASE VOLUNTEER FOR SUB TEAM 1.3.2 IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN ASSISTING WITH THIS INITIAL REVIEW. *Staff will endeavor to provide the template tool for 1.3.2 to the sub team as soon as possible, hopefully by Monday.

_2. Full WG Review of Other Comments to Continue in Parallel_:

* Staff will “collapse” (per James’ suggestion on the call) all those template responses received that were simply a Yes or No answer to a question, without any further comment added – these will be reflected in the Public Comment Review Tool accordingly, as a single collective entry. The current Tool (covering Preliminary Recommendations 1 through 9) will be updated in time for the WG to begin this review on the next call.

_3. Collated Information_:

* In addition to the updated spreadsheet just circulated by Graeme, we can also send you archived mail files of the contributions received to the public comment forum, should you or your group wish to conduct searches through each comment yourselves.

We hope the above will be helpful in facilitating good progress on the work to be done in preparation for the Final Report.

Thanks and cheers

Mary

Mary Wong

Senior Policy Director

Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)

Telephone: +1 603 574 4889

Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>

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-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.

Hi Paul, I just do not see how anything we do here will help that poor grandma not get scammed or end online harrassment. That is why I see bringing them into the discussion as a red herring. The crimes being committed against them will occurr with or without whois privacy and they will be investigated by law enforcement acting within their legal mandates. With or without privacy. Unless you can give us any specific examples how these crimes will be prevented by anything we do here, I do not think adding their concerns to the discussions adds any value whatsoever. Best, Volker Am 21.07.2015 um 13:44 schrieb McGrady, Paul D.:

Thanks Volker. Calling my concerns a red herring doesn’t make the problem go away nor does pointing the finger at governments and saying it is their problem. It is too bad that you have steadfastly refused to engage in useful dialogue concerning how to protect the interests of noncommercial users, even if they don’t buy domain names or pay for privacy services.

Regards,

Paul

*From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] *Sent:* Tuesday, July 21, 2015 3:48 AM *To:* McGrady, Paul D.; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments

Hi Paul,

I am sure these are process questions of inter-jurisdictional nature. I would presume these are best left to the governments of the world to decide upon. The current processes for cross-border law enforcement assistance are based on international agreements beteen countries and if the governments of these countries saw a need to strengthen or speed up the reach of their law enforcement agencies they would be implementing faster processes.

In the meantime, the victim could also complaint ot law enforcement at the location of the service, instead of his own LEA if he is worried about a delay caused by jurisdictional questions.

I agree that as the internet is international, some tools of the past do not work as well as they did in years past, but it is up to the governments of the world to solve the jurisdictional and process issues; it is not up to ICANN.

In any case, you completely ignored my argument (or question) that regulation of privacy services would in no way help those bullied teenagers or scammed elderly couples. Protection of such users is a problem well beyond online privacy services and would exist exactly in the same manner with or without privacy services. So your argument seems to me like a red herring.

Best,

Volker

Am 20.07.2015 um 20:13 schrieb McGrady, Paul D.:

Hi Volker,

Your somewhat dismissive suggestion to “file a police report” doesn’t reflect:

·The time and difficulties of getting an indictment so that a court order can be issued;

·Getting that court order enforced in jurisdictions that do not cooperate with the particular home jurisdiction of the victim; and

·The seriousness of the threats which consumers face, especially children, when using the Internet for non-commercial purposes.

Unfortunately, the news services share a steady stream of horrifying stories of teenagers who harm themselves due to cyberbullying or elderly couples who lose entire life savings in online scams. Surely we must take their interests seriously, even if no one alerted them to file a comment.

As you know from my prior posts, I don’t disagree with the notion that “the rights and interests of those that use these services for legitimate reasons” are important interests. They just can’t be the only interests taken into account, which is exactly what the “litigation only” approach does.

Again, if you have any substantive suggestions on how to implement “litigation only” in a way that takes into account the need to protect non-commercial users of the Internet, even if they aren’t buying domain names or paying for privacy services, I would welcome hearing them.

Regards,

Paul

*From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] *Sent:* Monday, July 20, 2015 12:25 PM *To:* McGrady, Paul D.; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments

Hi Paul,

I agree that non-commercial users and consumers may need protection as well, but I am just not sure how this relates to privacy services at all. How does knowing the underlying data of a privacy service help a scam victim? If there is illegal use, odds are the underlying data will not be of much value either. Criminals rarely leave their home address on file anywhere near their crime scenes.

Surely preferred venue for addressing such abuse by consumers is their local police station, who will initiate an investigation and can get a court order if the substance of the case bears that out. Across borders, legal assistance is available. A British law enforcement official has proper venues to request legal assistance from his German counterpart, for example.

Which leaves us with the rights and interests of those that use these services for legitimate reasons. We need to ensure their interests are protected too. For reasons, go look at the hundreds of public comments where users detail why they NEED strong protections of their privacy that cannot be easily circumvented.

Am 20.07.2015 um 18:53 schrieb McGrady, Paul D.:

Thanks Volker. For the benefit of the others on the list, I am pulling up a copy of your original email to me so that I can be read along with your additional thoughts below.

imap://vgreimann%40key-systems%2Enet@mail-01.key-systems.net:993/fetch%3EUID%3E/INBOX%3E177920?header=quotebody&part=1.2&filename=image001.jpg

Also, thank you for this statement in your post below:

“I also think that the importance of the debate is of the essence here, but that does not only include the interests of IP and trademark rights holders but also those of those affected by anything we come up with, i.e. civil society, private individuals and organizations, and their rights and interests”

which appears to adopt my concern for the protection of non-commercial users who are victims of scams, crime, etc. While I thought it was interesting that you attempted to bring in IP and trademark rights holders into a conversation about non-commercial user’s need to get access to information about criminals and others abusing them and the DNS, I’m not sure that simply beating the IP/Trademark Holder straw man is that same thing as putting forward substantive ideas on how to balance in the concerns of non-commercial, non-DNS customer consumers with the “mandatory litigation” framework you are proposing. I again welcome any substantive comments you may have regarding how we protect those consumers – even if they do not own a domain name or pay for P/P services – within the mandatory litigation paradigm which would result in months-long delay to get an order from the victim’s court served on a P/P service countries away.

Thanks in advance for your substantive thoughts on how to balance these interests.

Best,

Paul

*From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] *Sent:* Monday, July 20, 2015 11:16 AM *To:* McGrady, Paul D.; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments

Hi Paul,

I intended to post to the list, apologies if I misclicked.

I wanted to say that the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. No one is served if the justice system takes months to process a simple request, OTOH, this is not a reason for circumventing due process. Slow justice is better than no justice or vigilantism.

I also think that the importance of the debate is of the essence here, but that does not only include the interests of IP and trademark rights holders but also those of those affected by anything we come up with, i.e. civil society, private individuals and organizations, and their rights and interests.

Best,

Volker

Am 20.07.2015 um 17:30 schrieb McGrady, Paul D.:

Thanks Volker. I don’t think your comment appreciates the importance of the debate. Is there a reason that it was sent only to me and not to the list? Any object to me posting it on the list? Thanks.

*From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] *Sent:* Monday, July 20, 2015 10:26 AM *To:* McGrady, Paul D. *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments

Hi Paul,

it seems a good thing not to be in a common law country then, as over here usually a different axiom applies: "justice hurried along is bad justice". If a case is there, a court will be able to see that and issue an order. Getting injunctive relief can take as little as half a day.

Best,

Volker

Am 20.07.2015 um 17:15 schrieb McGrady, Paul D.:

Thanks Volker. I’m pretty sure it won’t do any good to get drawn into a conversation about the consequences of service providers being and permanently staying the RNH, since that is not what is really being discussed. The conversation has evolved well past that point and a long, long time ago.

I would, however, appreciate your substantive thoughts on how we balance the need for consumers who are victims of scams and crime (even if those consumers don’t happen to be domain name registrants or P/P customers) within the “court order only” paradigm which on its face is woefully inadequate to bring about a timely remedy. It is now axiomatic in common law jurisdictions that “Justice delayed is justice denied.”

I’m looking forward to your reply. Thanks for your time.

Best,

Paul

*From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] *Sent:* Monday, July 20, 2015 9:03 AM *To:* McGrady, Paul D.; James Gannon; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments

Privacy or proxy services do not conflict with section 3.3.1.6 of the RAA (nor RA) as formally, the service provider is the RNH in a proxy form.

Volker

Am 20.07.2015 um 14:25 schrieb McGrady, Paul D.:

Thanks James. The ship has already sailed on option a). See 3.3.1.6 of the RA noting the mandatory requirement of the disclosure of “The name and postal address of the Registered Name Holder.” What this team is discussing is how to develop an framework for exceptions to 3.3.1.6 that does not create a safe haven for human traffickers, cyber-bullies, and other nefarious types that would harm non-commercial users of the Internet. It is not within our remit to undo 3.3.1.6, no matter how many form comments are posted asking that we do so. Our remit is finding what circumstances warrant the exception through allowing WHOIS modification and which do not, the means to communicate to someone who is legitimately using such WHOIS modification services, and the terms upon which such allowable WHOIS modification will be terminated if it is being used to abuse others.

Even if abolishing 3.3.1.6 were a possibility and the DNS wasn’t built on a series of contracts (which it is), I see no particular upside to telling parents of children being bullied online, geriatric victims of banking scams, and targets of pay-in-advance credit offers that they have to wait months while their local court order requiring disclosure makes its way through the Hague Convention service process in order to be effectuated by a far-away privacy service. Although we have heard much about protecting the rights of non-commercial users of the Internet who happen to be domain name registrants as well and who are using P/P services (and we should be concerned about them), we also need to keep in mind the other non-commercial users of the Internet who will also be affected – even if they have not contributed financially to the system by purchasing a domain name.

I for one hope we can get back on track and discuss the substantive, relevant comments and reach final consensus on the handful of outstanding issues and get a report in to the GNSO that reflects a sensible balance.

Regards,

Paul

*From:*gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *James Gannon *Sent:* Monday, July 20, 2015 5:51 AM *To:* Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments

Agreed Volker I would put my analysis in set A aswell.

-James

*From:*gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Volker Greimann *Sent:* Monday, July 20, 2015 11:37 AM *To:* gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments

Hi Steve,

these comments can be read in different ways:

a) ICANN should not implement policy that requires disclosure without a court order, or b) no disclosure should be allowed without a court order.

I tend to interpret the comments as being in the a) column.

Best,

Volker

Am 17.07.2015 um 21:42 schrieb Metalitz, Steven:

No, James, we should certainly consider those concerns but not necessarily change the report.

The single concern raised more often than any other, I am positive, is that proxy services should not be permitted to disclose any information on their customer without a court order. That is not a standard that your service or any other that I know of can meet. We can change our report to make that a requirement for privacy/proxy service providers. Should we?

Steve

*From:*James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com] *Sent:* Friday, July 17, 2015 3:35 PM *To:* Metalitz, Steven *Cc:* Kathy Kleiman; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments

Steve:

With respect, if several thousand commenters raised issues that concern them, but are not addressed by our report, the our focus should be on changing the report, not discounting the comments.

Thank you,

J.

____________

James Bladel

GoDaddy

On Jul 17, 2015, at 21:20, Metalitz, Steven <met@msk.com <mailto:met@msk.com>> wrote:

I am all in favor of people identifying topics they believe need to be addressed by the WG. However, Kathy, I have to disagree with your premise, which is that the ten thousand plus comments reflect responses to our questions or even statements of agreement or disagreement to our consensus positions or report proposals. A much smaller (though still significant) number of comments do that, and those should be our top priority for review and response. But the vast majority of comments clearly are not responses to our report. These mass comments raise a very limited number of issues, which I don’t think we will that much difficulty dealing with once we have addressed the responses to our questions and the reasoned statements of agreement or disagreement with specific proposals we have made.

Let’s get started on the more substantive comments, starting with the questions we did pose. We have subteams forming to start to tackle that, and the staff (and Graeme!) are providing some tools to try to help facilitate that. For those who don’t wish to join subteams, again, I agree it would be useful to identify (as you put it) the “major issues and concerns” that you find in the comments, with citations to those comments that you believe raise those major issues and concerns.

Steve

*From:*gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Kathy Kleiman *Sent:* Thursday, July 16, 2015 6:34 PM *To:* gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> *Subject:* [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments

Hi Don, Steve, Graeme, Mary and all WG members, I would like recommend that we take a slightly different approach. We received over ten thousand comments, many coming from those who do not ordinarily participate in the ICANN process. They wrote to us us not only in response to our specific questions, but also to share agreement (and disagreement) to our consensus positions/report proposals, and to explain why proxy/privacy registrations are important to them. There has been a huge outpouring particularly on the last issue.

While a few topics for cataloging these comments were presented on the call, with great respect, I do not think we have dealt with or cataloged all of the major issues and concerns raised by the comments yet. Before we leap forward to subteams and analysis, shouldn't we ask further, in writing, and with the whole of the WG participating -- have we gotten the topics right? Have we created sufficient topics to allow us to catalog the broad range of information, concerns and comments shared with us by so many commenters?

I would like to request that we be able to take big breath, and a slightly (only slightly!) different approach. In preparation for Tuesday's call, could we all skim the comments -- with our array of expertise, insight, knowledge of aspects of our commenter base -- to come up with topics that we think the WG should evaluate in tour review? Perhaps if we can circulate the topics online, and then discuss them on Tuesday.

Then we discuss how these topics/this substance might be overlaid on the subteam process laid out below and shared for the first time on last week's call. We will then have both substance and process! And we will know that we have considered all of the major issues arising from these important comments.

If we go forward now without this evaluation, I fear we may be missing much of what the comments have to offer.

Best and tx, Kathy

*From:* gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Mary Wong

*Sent:*14 July 2015 23:50 *To:* gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> *Subject:* [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A proposed approach for reviewing public comments

Dear WG members,

Following from the WG call earlier today, the co-chairs and staff after some consultation would like to propose the following approach for your consideration:

_1. Use of Sub Teams for Specific Topics_:

* Sub-teams comprising a few WG volunteers each can be formed to do the initial review of public comments received on the three topics suggested by Steve on the call, i.e. (1) Section 1.3.2 of the Initial Report (on escalation of relay requests and the handling of disclosure/publication requests from third parties other than IP rights holders); (2) Section 1.3.3 (on the open question regarding online financial transactions); and (3) Annex E (the Illustrative Disclosure Framework). * To assist the WG evaluate the usefulness of sub teams, a sub team for Section 1.3.2 can be formed first and serve as a “test case” for the exercise. * As outlined on the call, a sub team will do a “first pass” through a template, based on the Public Comment Review Tool, that staff will populate with all the input received on that particular issue. The sub team will report back to the full WG in a timely fashion, including suggesting a WG response and/or proposed action in relation to the comments received. * Sub teams may elect to do their work via email and online tools (e.g. Google Docs or a wiki page), with or without supplemental conference calls. Any calls will be recorded and transcribed for transparency purposes, and drafts and other documents prepared using online tools will also be made available to the full WG. (Do note, however, that depending on call scheduling and timing, staff support may not be available for all requested calls if several sub teams are used concurrently.)

*PLEASE VOLUNTEER FOR SUB TEAM 1.3.2 IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN ASSISTING WITH THIS INITIAL REVIEW. *Staff will endeavor to provide the template tool for 1.3.2 to the sub team as soon as possible, hopefully by Monday.

_2. Full WG Review of Other Comments to Continue in Parallel_:

* Staff will “collapse” (per James’ suggestion on the call) all those template responses received that were simply a Yes or No answer to a question, without any further comment added – these will be reflected in the Public Comment Review Tool accordingly, as a single collective entry. The current Tool (covering Preliminary Recommendations 1 through 9) will be updated in time for the WG to begin this review on the next call.

_3. Collated Information_:

* In addition to the updated spreadsheet just circulated by Graeme, we can also send you archived mail files of the contributions received to the public comment forum, should you or your group wish to conduct searches through each comment yourselves.

We hope the above will be helpful in facilitating good progress on the work to be done in preparation for the Final Report.

Thanks and cheers

Mary

Mary Wong

Senior Policy Director

Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)

Telephone: +1 603 574 4889

Email: mary.wong@icann.org <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>

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- Rechtsabteilung -

Key-Systems GmbH

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Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Volker A. Greimann

- Rechtsabteilung -

Key-Systems GmbH

Im Oberen Werk 1

66386 St. Ingbert

Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901

Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851

Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>

Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>

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--------------------------------------------

Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Best regards,

Volker A. Greimann

- legal department -

Key-Systems GmbH

Im Oberen Werk 1

66386 St. Ingbert

Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901

Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851

Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>

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--

Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Volker A. Greimann

- Rechtsabteilung -

Key-Systems GmbH

Im Oberen Werk 1

66386 St. Ingbert

Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901

Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851

Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>

Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>

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Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin

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www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>

Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.

--------------------------------------------

Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Best regards,

Volker A. Greimann

- legal department -

Key-Systems GmbH

Im Oberen Werk 1

66386 St. Ingbert

Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901

Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851

Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>

Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>

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Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Volker A. Greimann

- Rechtsabteilung -

Key-Systems GmbH

Im Oberen Werk 1

66386 St. Ingbert

Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901

Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851

Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>

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--------------------------------------------

Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Best regards,

Volker A. Greimann

- legal department -

Key-Systems GmbH

Im Oberen Werk 1

66386 St. Ingbert

Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901

Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851

Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>

Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>

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www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>

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--

Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Volker A. Greimann

- Rechtsabteilung -

Key-Systems GmbH

Im Oberen Werk 1

66386 St. Ingbert

Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901

Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851

Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>

Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>

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Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:

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Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin

Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken

Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534

Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP

www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>

Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.

--------------------------------------------

Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Best regards,

Volker A. Greimann

- legal department -

Key-Systems GmbH

Im Oberen Werk 1

66386 St. Ingbert

Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901

Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851

Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>

Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>

www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>

Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:

www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>

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CEO: Alexander Siffrin

Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken

V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534

Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP

www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>

This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.

The contents of this message may be privileged and confidential. Therefore, if this message has been received in error, please delete it without reading it. Your receipt of this message is not intended to waive any applicable privilege. Please do not disseminate this message without the permission of the author.

-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -

Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>

Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>

Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>

Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534

Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>

Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.

--------------------------------------------

Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Best regards,

Volker A. Greimann - legal department -

Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>

Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>

Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>

CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534

Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>

This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.

The contents of this message may be privileged and confidential. Therefore, if this message has been received in error, please delete it without reading it. Your receipt of this message is not intended to waive any applicable privilege. Please do not disseminate this message without the permission of the author.

-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.

Hi, On Jul 21, 2015, at 10:48 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-Systems.net> wrote: [SNIP]

In any case, you completely ignored my argument (or question) that regulation of privacy services would in no way help those bullied teenagers or scammed elderly couples. Protection of such users is a problem well beyond online privacy services and would exist exactly in the same manner with or without privacy services. So your argument seems to me like a red herring.

If folks recall, the WHOIS privacy/proxy abuse study determined that roughly 31% of malicious domain name registrations use privacy services. However, less than 2% of all maliciously registered domain names are contractible regardless of the use, or lack of, these services. That is because bad actors will resort to means to hide their contact details regardless of how they choose to set up their domain name registrations. So this study provides some empirical evidence supporting Volker’s reasoning above. To quote one of the findings of the study:

“When domain names are registered with the intent of conducting illegal or harmful Internet activities then a range of different methods are used to avoid providing viable contact information – with a consistent outcome no matter which method is used.”

I haven’t been following the discussion of this PDP as closely as I would have liked to, so apologies if I raise points already discussed in the past. Thanks. Amr

Hi Paul This is the very debate the ALAC has been having.  On the one hand, non-commercial users and consumers do not want the miscreants being able to hide behind a p/p service.  But earlier comments are also correct - most consumers will not go to the Whois database to try to track down the miscreant.  They will go to their consumer protection agency (however named). And the truth is that if they go to their local police station, that police station will also not be going to the Whois database.  However, a consumer protection agency, or a government agency that deals with consumer probably will have the knowledge to check out the Whois database and use whatever other resources (policy, law enforcement agencies) to track down the miscreants. This is why we need to think through who should be given access to Whois data of the registrant using a p/p service.  Should it just be law enforcement agencies with a warrant, or others as well - as set out in the Annex for rights holders. Agreed, the Whois data of miscreants probably won't be correct, but it may assist law enforcement and other agencies to track down the miscreants. Hope that moves this discussion along Holly ----- Original Message ----- From: "Volker Greimann" To:"McGrady Paul D." , "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org" Cc: Sent:Mon, 20 Jul 2015 19:24:40 +0200 Subject:Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments Hi Paul, I agree that non-commercial users and consumers may need protection as well, but I am just not sure how this relates to privacy services at all. How does knowing the underlying data of a privacy service help a scam victim? If there is illegal use, odds are the underlying data will not be of much value either. Criminals rarely leave their home address on file anywhere near their crime scenes. Surely preferred venue for addressing such abuse by consumers is their local police station, who will initiate an investigation and can get a court order if the substance of the case bears that out. Across borders, legal assistance is available. A British law enforcement official has proper venues to request legal assistance from his German counterpart, for example. Which leaves us with the rights and interests of those that use these services for legitimate reasons. We need to ensure their interests are protected too. For reasons, go look at the hundreds of public comments where users detail why they NEED strong protections of their privacy that cannot be easily circumvented. Am 20.07.2015 um 18:53 schrieb McGrady, Paul D.: Thanks Volker.  For the benefit of the others on the list, I am pulling up a copy of your original email to me so that I can be read along with your additional thoughts below.     Also, thank you for this statement in your post below:   “I also think that the importance of the debate is of the essence here, but that does not only include the interests of IP and trademark rights holders but also those of those affected by anything we come up with, i.e. civil society, private individuals and organizations, and their rights and interests”   which appears to adopt my concern for the protection of non-commercial users who are victims of scams, crime, etc.  While I thought it was interesting that you attempted to bring in IP and trademark rights holders into a conversation about non-commercial user’s need to get access to information about criminals and others abusing them and the DNS, I’m not sure that simply beating the IP/Trademark Holder straw man is that same thing as putting forward substantive ideas on how to balance in the concerns of non-commercial, non-DNS customer consumers with the “mandatory litigation” framework you are proposing.   I again welcome any substantive comments you may have regarding how we protect those consumers – even if they do not own a domain name or pay for P/P services – within the mandatory litigation paradigm which would result in months-long delay to get an order from the victim’s court served on a P/P service countries away.    Thanks in advance for your substantive thoughts on how to balance these interests.   Best, Paul   FROM: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net [1]] SENT: Monday, July 20, 2015 11:16 AM TO: McGrady, Paul D.; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org [2] SUBJECT: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments   Hi Paul, I intended to post to the list, apologies if I misclicked. I wanted to say that the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. No one is served if the justice system takes months to process a simple request, OTOH, this is not a reason for circumventing due process. Slow justice is better than no justice or vigilantism. I also think that the importance of the debate is of the essence here, but that does not only include the interests of IP and trademark rights holders but also those of those affected by anything we come up with, i.e. civil society, private individuals and organizations, and their rights and interests. Best, Volker Am 2007.2015 um 17:30 schrieb McGrady, Paul D.: Thanks Volker.  I don’t think your comment appreciates the importance of the debate.  Is there a reason that it was sent only to me and not to the list?  Any object to me posting it on the list?  Thanks.   FROM: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net [3]] SENT: Monday, July 20, 2015 10:26 AM TO: McGrady, Paul D. SUBJECT: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments   Hi Paul, it seems a good thing not to be in a common law country then, as over here usually a different axiom applies: "justice hurried along is bad justice". If a case is there, a court will be able to see that and issue an order. Getting injunctive relief can take as little as half a day. Best, Volker Am 20.07.2015 um 17:15 schrieb McGrady, Paul D.: Thanks Volker.  I’m pretty sure it won’t do any good to get drawn into a conversation about the consequences of service providers being and permanently staying the RNH, since that is not what is really being discussed.  The conversation has evolved well past that point and a long, long time ago.    I would, however, appreciate your substantive thoughts on how we balance the need for consumers who are victims of scams and crime (even if those consumers don’t happen to be domain name registrants or P/P customers) within the “court order only” paradigm which on its face is woefully inadequate to bring about a timely remedy.  It is now axiomatic in common law jurisdictions that “Justice delayed is justice denied.”   I’m looking forward to your reply.  Thanks for your time.   Best, Paul       FROM: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net [4]] SENT: Monday, July 20, 2015 9:03 AM TO: McGrady, Paul D.; James Gannon; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org [5] SUBJECT: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments   Privacy or proxy services do not conflict with section 3.3.1.6 of the RAA (nor RA) as formally, the service provider is the RNH in a proxy form. Volker Am 20.07.2015 um 14:25 schrieb McGrady, Paul D.: Thanks James.  The ship has already sailed on option a).  See 3.3.1.6 of the RA noting the mandatory requirement of the disclosure of “The name and postal address of the Registered Name Holder.”  What this team is discussing is how to develop an framework for exceptions to 3.3.1.6 that does not create a safe haven for human traffickers, cyber-bullies, and other nefarious types that would harm non-commercial users of the Internet.  It is not within our remit to undo 3.3.1.6, no matter how many form comments are posted asking that we do so.  Our remit is finding what circumstances warrant the exception through allowing WHOIS modification and which do not, the means to communicate to someone who is legitimately using such WHOIS modification services, and the terms upon which such allowable WHOIS modification will be terminated if it is being used to abuse others.   Even if abolishing 3.3.1.6 were a possibility and the DNS wasn’t built on a series of contracts (which it is), I see no particular upside to telling parents of children being bullied online, geriatric victims of banking scams, and targets of pay-in-advance credit offers that they have to wait months while their local court order requiring disclosure makes its way through the Hague Convention service process in order to  be effectuated by a far-away privacy service.  Although we have heard much about protecting the rights of non-commercial users of the Internet who happen to be domain name registrants as well and who are using P/P services (and we should be concerned about them), we also need to keep in mind the other non-commercial users of the Internet who will also be affected – even if they have not contributed financially to the system by purchasing a domain name.    I for one hope we can get back on track and discuss the substantive, relevant comments and reach final consensus on the handful of outstanding issues and get a report in to the GNSO that reflects a sensible balance.   Regards, Paul         FROM: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [6] [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [7]] ON BEHALF OF James Gannon SENT: Monday, July 20, 2015 5:51 AM TO: Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org [8] SUBJECT: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments   Agreed Volker I would put my analysis in set A aswell.   -James   FROM: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [9] [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icannorg [10]] ON BEHALF OF Volker Greimann SENT: Monday, July 20, 2015 11:37 AM TO: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org [11] SUBJECT: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments   Hi Steve, these comments can be read in different ways: a) ICANN should not implement policy that requires disclosure without a court order, or b) no disclosure should be allowed without a court order. I tend to interpret the comments as being in the a) column. Best, Volker Am 17.07.2015 um 21:42 schrieb Metalitz, Steven: No, James, we should certainly consider those concerns but not necessarily change the report   The single concern raised more often than any other, I am positive, is that proxy services should not be permitted to disclose any information on their customer without a court order.   That is not a standard that your service or any other that I know of can meet.  We can change our report to make that a requirement for privacy/proxy service providers.  Should we?    Steve   FROM: James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com [12]] SENT: Friday, July 17, 2015 3:35 PM TO: Metalitz, Steven CC: Kathy Kleiman; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org [13] SUBJECT: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments   Steve:   With respect, if several thousand commenters raised issues that concern them, but are not addressed by our report, the our focus should be on changing the report, not discounting the comments.  Thank you,   J. ____________ James Bladel GoDaddy On Jul 17, 2015, at 21:20, Metalitz, Steven wrote: I am all in favor of people identifying topics they believe need to be addressed by the WG.  However, Kathy, I have to disagree with your premise, which is that the ten thousand plus comments reflect responses to our questions or even statements of agreement or disagreement to our consensus positions or report proposals. A much smaller (though still significant) number of comments do that, and those should be our top priority for review and response.  But the vast majority of comments clearly are not responses to our report.  These mass comments raise a very limited number of issues, which I don’t think we will that much difficulty dealing with once we have addressed the responses to our questions and the reasoned statements of agreement or disagreement with specific proposals we have made.       Let’s get started on the more substantive comments, starting with the questions we did pose.  We have subteams forming to start to tackle that, and the staff (and Graeme!) are providing some tools to try to help facilitate that.    For those who don’t wish to join subteams, again, I agree it would be useful to identify (as you put it) the “major issues and concerns” that you find in the comments, with citations to those comments that you believe raise those major issues and concerns.   Steve  FROM: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [15] [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [16]] ON BEHALF OF Kathy Kleiman SENT: Thursday, July 16, 2015 6:34 PM TO: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org [17] SUBJECT: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments   Hi Don, Steve, Graeme, Mary and all WG members, I would like recommend that we take a slightly different approach. We received over ten thousand comments, many coming from those who do not ordinarily participate in the ICANN process. They wrote to us us not only in response to our specific questions, but also to share agreement (and disagreement) to our consensus positions/report proposals, and to explain why proxy/privacy registrations are important to them. There has been a huge outpouring particularly on the last issue. While a few topics for cataloging these comments were presented on the call, with great respect, I do not think we have dealt with or cataloged all of the major issues and concerns raised by the comments yet. Before we leap forward to subteams and analysis, shouldn't we ask further, in writing, and with the whole of the WG participating -- have we gotten the topics right?  Have we created sufficient topics to allow us to catalog the broad range of information, concerns and comments shared with us by so many commenters? I would like to request that we be able to take big breath, and a slightly (only slightly!) different approach.  In preparation for Tuesday's call, could we all skim the comments -- with our array of expertise, insight, knowledge of aspects of our commenter base -- to come up with topics that we think the WG should evaluate in tour review?  Perhaps if we can circulate the topics online, and then discuss them on Tuesday. Then we discuss how these topics/this substance might be overlaid on the subteam process laid out below and shared for the first time on last week's call. We will then have both substance and process! And we will know that we have considered all of the major issues arising from these important comments. If we go forward now without this evaluation, I fear we may be missing much of what the comments have to offer. Best and tx, Kathy FROM: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [18] [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [19]] ON BEHALF OF Mary Wong SENT: 14 July 2015 23:50 TO: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org [20] SUBJECT: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A proposed approach for reviewing public comments   Dear WG members,   Following from the WG call earlier today, the co-chairs and staff after some consultation would like to propose the following approach for your consideration:   1. Use of Sub Teams for Specific Topics: * Sub-teams comprising a few WG volunteers each can be formed to do the initial review of public comments received on the three topics suggested by Steve on the call, i.e. (1) Section 1.3.2 of the Initial Report (on escalation of relay requests and the handling of disclosure/publication requests from third parties other than IP rights holders); (2) Section 1.3.3 (on the open question regarding online financial transactions); and (3) Annex E (the Illustrative Disclosure Framework). * To assist the WG evaluate the usefulness of sub teams, a sub team for Section 1.3.2 can be formed first and serve as a “test case” for the exercise. * As outlined on the call, a sub team will do a “first pass” through a template, based on the Public Comment Review Tool, that staff will populate with all the input received on that particular issue. The sub team will report back to the full WG in a timely fashion, including suggesting a WG response and/or proposed action in relation to the comments received. * Sub teams may elect to do their work via email and online tools (e.g. Google Docs or a wiki page), with or without supplemental conference calls. Any calls will be recorded and transcribed for transparency purposes, and drafts and other documents prepared using online tools will also be made available to the full WG. (Do note, however, that depending on call scheduling and timing, staff support may not be available for all requested calls if several sub teams are used concurrently.) PLEASE VOLUNTEER FOR SUB TEAM 1.3.2 IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN ASSISTING WITH THIS INITIAL REVIEW. Staff will endeavor to provide the template tool for 1.3.2 to the sub team as soon as possible, hopefully by Monday.   2. Full WG Review of Other Comments to Continue in Parallel: * Staff will “collapse” (per James’ suggestion on the call) all those template responses received that were simply a Yes or No answer to a question, without any further comment added – these will be reflected in the Public Comment Review Tool accordingly, as a single collective entry. The current Tool (covering Preliminary Recommendations 1 through 9) will be updated in time for the WG to begin this review on the next call.   3. 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Hi Paul While increasing numbers of policemen may be familiar with cybercrime, etc, I would expect that it wouldbe dealt with by more specially trained units within police forces.  It's not a tool I would expect your average cop to use. And ICANN is already carrying out an educational role in that space - just talk to the SSAC members, who spend a lot of time on planes going around the world training police forces. My point is that I'd rather cases of fraud, misrepresentation etc are dealt with by agencies designed to do so. Holly ----- Original Message ----- From: "McGrady Paul D." To:"h.raiche@internode.on.net" , "Volker Greimann" , "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icannorg" Cc: Sent:Tue, 21 Jul 2015 11:56:39 +0000 Subject:RE: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approachfor reviewing public comments Hi Holly,   Is there any data to back up the assertion that in today’s day and age the police don’t know how to use WHOIS?  That might have been the case 10 years ago, but with cybercrime on the rise along with cyberbullying and other online offenses, I don’t think such is the case anymore.  I bet these nice police know how to use WHOIS:  https://portal.chicagopolice.org/portal/page/portal/ClearPath/Communities/Yo...   Even if it is true that some percentage of police don’t know how to use WHOIS, it seems like an outreach & education need for ICANN rather than for us to decide that the police are too ignorant to use WHOIS  so we need to be concerned about noncommercial users of the Internet.    Best, Paul     FROM: h.raiche@internode.on.net [mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net] SENT: Monday, July 20, 2015 8:29 PM TO: Volker Greimann; McGrady, Paul D.; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org SUBJECT: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approachfor reviewing public comments   Hi Paul This is the very debate the ALAC has been having.  On the one hand, non-commercial users and consumers do not want the miscreants being able to hide behind a p/p service.  But earlier comments are also correct - most consumers will not go to the Whois database to try to track down the miscreant.  They will go to their consumer protection agency (however named). And the truth is that if they go to their local police station, that police station will also not be going to the Whois database.  However, a consumer protection agency, or a government agency that deals with consumer probably will have the knowledge to check out the Whois database and use whatever other resources (policy, law enforcement agencies) to track down the miscreants. This is why we need to think through who should be given access to Whois data of the registrant using a p/p service.  Should it just be law enforcement agencies with a warrant, or others as well - as set out in the Annex for rights holders. Agreed, the Whois data of miscreants probably won't be correct, but it may assist law enforcement and other agencies to track down the miscreants. Hope that moves this discussion along Holly ----- Original Message ----- FROM: "Volker Greimann"   TO: "McGrady Paul D." , "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org [3]" CC:   SENT: Mon, 20 Jul 2015 19:24:40 +0200 SUBJECT: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments Hi Paul, I agree that non-commercial users and consumers may need protection as well, but I am just not sure how this relates to privacy services at all. How does knowing the underlying data of a privacy service help a scam victim? If there is illegal use, odds are the underlying data will not be of much value either. Criminals rarely leave their home address on file anywhere near their crime scenes. Surely preferred venue for addressing such abuse by consumers is their local police station, who will initiate an investigation and can get a court order if the substance of the case bears that out. Across borders, legal assistance is available. A British law enforcement official has proper venues to request legal assistance from his German counterpart, for example. Which leaves us with the rights and interests of those that use these services for legitimate reasons. We need to ensure their interests are protected too. For reasons, go look at the hundreds of public comments where users detail why they NEED strong protections of their privacy that cannot be easily circumvented. Am 20.07.2015 um 18:53 schrieb McGrady, Paul D.: Thanks Volker.  For the benefit of the others on the list, I am pulling up a copy of your original email to me so that I can be read along with your additional thoughts below.     Also, thank you for this statement in your post below:   “I also think that the importance of the debate is of the essence here, but that does not only include the interests of IP and trademark rights holders but also those of those affected by anything we come up with, i.e. civil society, private individuals and organizations, and their rights and interests”   which appears to adopt my concern for the protection of non-commercial users who are victims of scams, crime, etc.  While I thought it was interesting that you attempted to bring in IP and trademark rights holders into a conversation about non-commercial user’s need to get access to information about criminals and others abusing them and the DNS, I’m not sure that simply beating the IP/Trademark Holder straw man is that same thing as putting forward substantive ideas on how to balance in the concerns of non-commercial, non-DNS customer consumers with the “mandatory litigation” framework you are proposing.   I again welcome any substantive comments you may have regarding how we protect those consumers – even if they do not own a domain name or pay for P/P services – within the mandatory litigation paradigm which would result in months-long delay to get an order from the victim’s court served on a P/P service countries away.    Thanks in advance for your substantive thoughts on how to balance these interests.   Best, Paul   FROM: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net [5]] SENT: Monday, July 20, 2015 11:16 AM TO: McGrady, Paul D.; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org [6] SUBJECT: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments   Hi Paul, I intended to post to the list, apologies if I misclicked. I wanted to say that the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. No one is served if the justice system takes months to process a simple request, OTOH, this is not a reason for circumventing due process. Slow justice is better than no justice or vigilantism. I also think that the importance of the debate is of the essence here, but that does not only include the interests of IP and trademark rights holders but also those of those affected by anything we come up with, i.e civil society, private individuals and organizations, and their rights and interests. Best, Volker Am 20.07.2015 um 17:30 schrieb McGrady, Paul D.: Thanks Volker.  I don’t think your comment appreciates the importance of the debate.  Is there a reason that it was sent only to me and not to the list?  Any object to me posting it on the list?  Thanks.   FROM: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net [7]] SENT: Monday, July 20, 2015 10:26 AM TO: McGrady, Paul D. SUBJECT: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments   Hi Paul, it seems a good thing not to be in a common law country then, as over here usually a different axiom applies: "justice hurried along is bad justice". If a case is there, a court will be able to see that and issue an order. Getting injunctive relief can take as little as half a day. Best, Volker Am 20.07.2015 um 17:15 schrieb McGrady, Paul D.: Thanks Volker.  I’m pretty sure it won’t do any good to get drawn into a conversation about the consequences of service providers being and permanently staying the RNH, since that is not what is really being discussed.  The conversation has evolved well past that point and a long, long time ago.    I would, however, appreciate your substantive thoughts on how we balance the need for consumers who are victims of scams and crime (even if those consumers don’t happen to be domain name registrants or P/P customers) within the “court order only” paradigm which on its face is woefully inadequate to bring about a timely remedy.  It is now axiomatic in common law jurisdictions that “Justice delayed is justice denied.”   I’m looking forward to your reply.  Thanks for your time.   Best, Paul       FROM: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net [8]] SENT: Monday, July 20, 2015 9:03 AM TO: McGrady, Paul D.; James Gannon; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org [9] SUBJECT: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments   Privacy or proxy services do not conflict with section 3.3.1.6 of the RAA (nor RA) as formally, the service provider is the RNH in a proxy form. Volker Am 20.07.2015 um 14:25 schrieb McGrady, Paul D.: Thanks James  The ship has already sailed on option a).  See 3.3.1.6 of the RA noting the mandatory requirement of the disclosure of “The name and postal address of the Registered Name Holder.”  What this team is discussing is how to develop an framework for exceptions to 3.3.1.6 that does not create a safe haven for human traffickers, cyber-bullies, and other nefarious types that would harm non-commercial users of the Internet.  It is not within our remit to undo 3.3.1.6, no matter how many form comments are posted asking that we do so.  Our remit is finding what circumstances warrant the exception through allowing WHOIS modification and which do not, the means to communicate to someone who is legitimately using such WHOIS modification services, and the terms upon which such allowable WHOIS modification will be terminated if it is being used to abuse others.   Even if abolishing 3.3.1.6 were a possibility and the DNS wasn’t built on a series of contracts (which it is), I see no particular upside to telling parents of children being bullied online, geriatric victims of banking scams, and targets of pay-in-advance credit offers that they have to wait months while their local court order requiring disclosure makes its way through the Hague Convention service process in order to  be effectuated by a far-away privacy service.  Although we have heard much about protecting the rights of non-commercial users of the Internet who happen to be domain name registrants as well and who are using P/P services (and we should be concerned about them), we also need to keep in mind the other non-commercial users of the Internet who will also be affected – even if they have not contributed financially to the system by purchasing a domain name.    I for one hope we can get back on track and discuss the substantive, relevant comments and reach final consensus on the handful of outstanding issues and get a report in to the GNSO that reflects a sensible balance.   Regards, Paul         FROM: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [10] [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [11]] ON BEHALF OF James Gannon SENT: Monday, July 20, 2015 5:51 AM TO: Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org [12] SUBJECT: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments   Agreed Volker I would put my analysis in set A aswell.   -James   FROM: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [13] [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [14]] ON BEHALF OF Volker Greimann SENT: Monday, July 20, 2015 11:37 AM TO: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org [15] SUBJECT: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments   Hi Steve, these comments can be read in different ways: a) ICANN should not implement policy that requires disclosure without a court order, or b) no disclosure should be allowed without a court order. I tend to interpret the comments as being in the a) column Best, Volker Am 17.072015 um 21:42 schrieb Metalitz, Steven: No, James, we should certainly consider those concerns but not necessarily change the report.   The single concern raised more often than any other, I am positive, is that proxy services should not be permitted to disclose any information on their customer without a court order.   That is not a standard that your service or any other that I know of can meet.  We can change our report to make that a requirement for privacy/proxy service providers.  Should we?    Steve   FROM: James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com [16]] SENT: Friday, July 17, 2015 3:35 PM TO: Metalitz, Steven CC: Kathy Kleiman; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org [17] SUBJECT: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments   Steve:   With respect, if several thousand commenters raised issues that concern them, but are not addressed by our report, the our focus should be on changing the report, not discounting the comments  Thank you,   J. ____________ James Bladel GoDaddy On Jul 17, 2015, at 21:20, Metalitz, Steven wrote: I am all in favor of people identifying topics they believe need to be addressed by the WG.  However, Kathy, I have to disagree with your premise, which is that the ten thousand plus comments reflect responses to our questions or even statements of agreement or disagreement to our consensus positions or report proposals A much smaller (though still significant) number of comments do that, and those should be our top priority for review and response.  But the vast majority of comments clearly are not responses to our report.  These mass comments raise a very limited number of issues, which I don’t think we will that much difficulty dealing with once we have addressed the responses to our questions and the reasoned statements of agreement or disagreement with specific proposals we have made.       Let’s get started on the more substantive comments, starting with the questions we did pose.  We have subteams forming to start to tackle that, and the staff (and Graeme!) are providing some tools to try to help facilitate that.    For those who don’t wish to join subteams, again, I agree it would be useful to identify (as you put it) the “major issues and concerns” that you find in the comments, with citations to those comments that you believe raise those major issues and concerns.   Steve  FROM: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [19] [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [20]] ON BEHALF OF Kathy Kleiman SENT: Thursday, July 16, 2015 6:34 PM TO: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org [21] SUBJECT: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments   Hi Don, Steve, Graeme, Mary and all WG members, I would like recommend that we take a slightly different approach. We received over ten thousand comments, many coming from those who do not ordinarily participate in the ICANN process. They wrote to us us not only in response to our specific questions, but also to share agreement (and disagreement) to our consensus positions/report proposals, and to explain why proxy/privacy registrations are important to them. There has been a huge outpouring particularly on the last issue. While a few topics for cataloging these comments were presented on the call, with great respect, I do not think we have dealt with or cataloged all of the major issues and concerns raised by the comments yet. Before we leap forward to subteams and analysis, shouldn't we ask further, in writing, and with the whole of the WG participating -- have we gotten the topics right?  Have we created sufficient topics to allow us to catalog the broad range of information, concerns and comments shared with us by so many commenters? I would like to request that we be able to take big breath, and a slightly (only slightly!) different approach.  In preparation for Tuesday's call, could we all skim the comments -- with our array of expertise, insight, knowledge of aspects of our commenter base -- to come up with topics that we think the WG should evaluate in tour review?  Perhaps if we can circulate the topics online, and then discuss them on Tuesday. Then we discuss how these topics/this substance might be overlaid on the subteam process laid out below and shared for the first time on last week's call. We will then have both substance and process! And we will know that we have considered all of the major issues arising from these important comments. If we go forward now without this evaluation, I fear we may be missing much of what the comments have to offer. Best and tx, Kathy FROM: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [22] [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [23]] ON BEHALF OF Mary Wong SENT: 14 July 2015 23:50 TO: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org [24] SUBJECT: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A proposed approach for reviewing public comments   Dear WG members,   Following from the WG call earlier today, the co-chairs and staff after some consultation would like to propose the following approach for your consideration:   1. Use of Sub Teams for Specific Topics: * Sub-teams comprising a few WG volunteers each can be formed to do the initial review of public comments received on the three topics suggested by Steve on the call, i.e. (1) Section 1.3.2 of the Initial Report (on escalation of relay requests and the handling of disclosure/publication requests from third parties other than IP rights holders); (2) Section 1.3.3 (on the open question regarding online financial transactions); and (3) Annex E (the Illustrative Disclosure Framework). * To assist the WG evaluate the usefulness of sub teams, a sub team for Section 1.3.2 can be formed first and serve as a “test case” for the exercise. * As outlined on the call, a sub team will do a “first pass” through a template, based on the Public Comment Review Tool, that staff will populate with all the input received on that particular issue. The sub team will report back to the full WG in a timely fashion, including suggesting a WG response and/or proposed action in relation to the comments received. * Sub teams may elect to do their work via email and online tools (e.g. Google Docs or a wiki page), with or without supplemental conference calls. Any calls will be recorded and transcribed for transparency purposes, and drafts and other documents prepared using online tools will also be made available to the full WG. (Do note, however, that depending on call scheduling and timing, staff support may not be available for all requested calls if several sub teams are used concurrently.) PLEASE VOLUNTEER FOR SUB TEAM 1.3.2 IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN ASSISTING WITH THIS INITIAL REVIEW. Staff will endeavor to provide the template tool for 1.3.2 to the sub team as soon as possible, hopefully by Monday.   2. Full WG Review of Other Comments to Continue in Parallel: * Staff will “collapse” (per James’ suggestion on the call) all those template responses received that were simply a Yes or No answer to a question, without any further comment added – these will be reflected in the Public Comment Review Tool accordingly, as a single collective entry. The current Tool (covering Preliminary Recommendations 1 through 9) will be updated in time for the WG to begin this review on the next call.   3. Collated Information: * In addition to the updated spreadsheet just circulated by Graeme, we can also send you archived mail files of the contributions received to the public comment forum, should you or your group wish to conduct searches through each comment yourselves.   We hope the above will be helpful in facilitating good progress on the work to be done in preparation for the Final Report.   Thanks and cheers Mary   Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org [25]                      ------------------------- Confidentiality Notice This message is being sent by or on behalf of a lawyer. It is intended exclusively for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. This communication may contain information that is proprietary, privileged or confidential or otherwise legally exempt from disclosure. If you are not the named addressee, you are not authorized to read, print, retain, copy or disseminate this message or any part of it. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete all copies of the message. _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org [26] https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg [27]   _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org [28] https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg [29] _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org [30] https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg [31]   -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.   Mit freundlichen Grüßen,   Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -   Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net [32]   Web: www.key-systems.net [33] / www.RRPproxy.net [34] www.domaindiscount24.com [35] / www.BrandShelter.com [36]   Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems [37] www.twitter.com/key_systems [38]   Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534   Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu [39]   Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.   --------------------------------------------   Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.   Best regards,   Volker A. Greimann - legal department -   Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net [40]   Web: www.key-systems.net [41] / www.RRPproxy.net [42] www.domaindiscount24.com [43] / www.BrandShelter.com [44]   Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems [45] www.twitter.com/key_systems [46]   CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534   Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu [47]   This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.       The contents of this message may be privileged and confidential. Therefore, if this message has been received in error, please delete it without reading it. Your receipt of this message is not intended to waive any applicable privilege. Please do not disseminate this message without the permission of the author.   -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.   Mit freundlichen Grüßen,   Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -   Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net [48]   Web: wwwkey-systems.net [49] / www.RRPproxy.net [50] www.domaindiscount24.com [51] / www.BrandShelter.com [52]   Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems [53] www.twitter.com/key_systems [54]   Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534   Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu [55]   Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.   --------------------------------------------   Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.   Best regards,   Volker A. Greimann - legal department -   Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net [56]   Web: www.key-systems.net [57] / www.RRPproxy.net [58] www.domaindiscount24.com [59] / www.BrandShelter.com [60]   Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems [61] www.twitter.com/key_systems [62]   CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534   Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu [63]   This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone       The contents of this message may be privileged and confidential. Therefore, if this message has been received in error, please delete it without reading it. Your receipt of this message is not intended to waive any applicable privilege. Please do not disseminate this message without the permission of the author. -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.   Mit freundlichen Grüßen,   Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -   Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systemsnet [64]   Web: www.key-systems.net [65] / www.RRPproxy.net [66] www.domaindiscount24.com [67] / www.BrandShelter.com [68]   Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems [69] www.twitter.com/key_systems [70]   Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534   Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu [71]   Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.   --------------------------------------------   Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.   Best regards,   Volker A. Greimann - legal department -   Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net [72]   Web: www.key-systemsnet [73] / www.RRPproxy.net [74] www.domaindiscount24.com [75] / www.BrandShelter.com [76]   Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems [77] www.twitter.com/key_systems [78]   CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534   Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu [79]   This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. 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Thanks Holly. Why would the average cop be assigned to a cyberbullying case or an online fraud case instead of the “more specially trained units within police forces”? Glad to hear ICANN is trying to educate. Regarding preferences for which agencies deal with which crimes, I’m afraid that sort of governmental engineering is well outside the scope of what we can accomplish in the PPSAI. In any event, it seems important for noncommercial users who become victims of crime and abuse to get help from whatever sources they can. Best, Paul From: h.raiche@internode.on.net [mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net] Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2015 8:42 AM To: McGrady, Paul D.; h.raiche@internode.on.net; Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approachfor reviewing public comments Hi Paul While increasing numbers of policemen may be familiar with cybercrime, etc, I would expect that it wouldbe dealt with by more specially trained units within police forces. It's not a tool I would expect your average cop to use. And ICANN is already carrying out an educational role in that space - just talk to the SSAC members, who spend a lot of time on planes going around the world training police forces. My point is that I'd rather cases of fraud, misrepresentation etc are dealt with by agencies designed to do so. Holly ----- Original Message ----- From: "McGrady Paul D." <PMcGrady@winston.com<mailto:PMcGrady@winston.com>> To: "h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>" <h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>>, "Volker Greimann" <vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>>, "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Cc: Sent: Tue, 21 Jul 2015 11:56:39 +0000 Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approachfor reviewing public comments Hi Holly, Is there any data to back up the assertion that in today’s day and age the police don’t know how to use WHOIS? That might have been the case 10 years ago, but with cybercrime on the rise along with cyberbullying and other online offenses, I don’t think such is the case anymore. I bet these nice police know how to use WHOIS: https://portal.chicagopolice.org/portal/page/portal/ClearPath/Communities/Yo... Even if it is true that some percentage of police don’t know how to use WHOIS, it seems like an outreach & education need for ICANN rather than for us to decide that the police are too ignorant to use WHOIS so we need to be concerned about noncommercial users of the Internet. Best, Paul From: h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net> [mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net] Sent: Monday, July 20, 2015 8:29 PM To: Volker Greimann; McGrady, Paul D.; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approachfor reviewing public comments Hi Paul This is the very debate the ALAC has been having. On the one hand, non-commercial users and consumers do not want the miscreants being able to hide behind a p/p service. But earlier comments are also correct - most consumers will not go to the Whois database to try to track down the miscreant. They will go to their consumer protection agency (however named). And the truth is that if they go to their local police station, that police station will also not be going to the Whois database. However, a consumer protection agency, or a government agency that deals with consumer probably will have the knowledge to check out the Whois database and use whatever other resources (policy, law enforcement agencies) to track down the miscreants. This is why we need to think through who should be given access to Whois data of the registrant using a p/p service. Should it just be law enforcement agencies with a warrant, or others as well - as set out in the Annex for rights holders. Agreed, the Whois data of miscreants probably won't be correct, but it may assist law enforcement and other agencies to track down the miscreants. Hope that moves this discussion along Holly ----- Original Message ----- From: "Volker Greimann" <vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> To: "McGrady Paul D." <PMcGrady@winston.com<mailto:PMcGrady@winston.com>>, "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Cc: Sent: Mon, 20 Jul 2015 19:24:40 +0200 Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments Hi Paul, I agree that non-commercial users and consumers may need protection as well, but I am just not sure how this relates to privacy services at all. How does knowing the underlying data of a privacy service help a scam victim? If there is illegal use, odds are the underlying data will not be of much value either. Criminals rarely leave their home address on file anywhere near their crime scenes. Surely preferred venue for addressing such abuse by consumers is their local police station, who will initiate an investigation and can get a court order if the substance of the case bears that out. Across borders, legal assistance is available. A British law enforcement official has proper venues to request legal assistance from his German counterpart, for example. Which leaves us with the rights and interests of those that use these services for legitimate reasons. We need to ensure their interests are protected too. For reasons, go look at the hundreds of public comments where users detail why they NEED strong protections of their privacy that cannot be easily circumvented. Am 20.07.2015 um 18:53 schrieb McGrady, Paul D.: Thanks Volker. For the benefit of the others on the list, I am pulling up a copy of your original email to me so that I can be read along with your additional thoughts below. Also, thank you for this statement in your post below: “I also think that the importance of the debate is of the essence here, but that does not only include the interests of IP and trademark rights holders but also those of those affected by anything we come up with, i.e. civil society, private individuals and organizations, and their rights and interests” which appears to adopt my concern for the protection of non-commercial users who are victims of scams, crime, etc. While I thought it was interesting that you attempted to bring in IP and trademark rights holders into a conversation about non-commercial user’s need to get access to information about criminals and others abusing them and the DNS, I’m not sure that simply beating the IP/Trademark Holder straw man is that same thing as putting forward substantive ideas on how to balance in the concerns of non-commercial, non-DNS customer consumers with the “mandatory litigation” framework you are proposing. I again welcome any substantive comments you may have regarding how we protect those consumers – even if they do not own a domain name or pay for P/P services – within the mandatory litigation paradigm which would result in months-long delay to get an order from the victim’s court served on a P/P service countries away. Thanks in advance for your substantive thoughts on how to balance these interests. Best, Paul From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] Sent: Monday, July 20, 2015 11:16 AM To: McGrady, Paul D.; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments Hi Paul, I intended to post to the list, apologies if I misclicked. I wanted to say that the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. No one is served if the justice system takes months to process a simple request, OTOH, this is not a reason for circumventing due process. Slow justice is better than no justice or vigilantism. I also think that the importance of the debate is of the essence here, but that does not only include the interests of IP and trademark rights holders but also those of those affected by anything we come up with, i.e. civil society, private individuals and organizations, and their rights and interests. Best, Volker Am 20.07.2015 um 17:30 schrieb McGrady, Paul D.: Thanks Volker. I don’t think your comment appreciates the importance of the debate. Is there a reason that it was sent only to me and not to the list? Any object to me posting it on the list? Thanks. From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] Sent: Monday, July 20, 2015 10:26 AM To: McGrady, Paul D. Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments Hi Paul, it seems a good thing not to be in a common law country then, as over here usually a different axiom applies: "justice hurried along is bad justice". If a case is there, a court will be able to see that and issue an order. Getting injunctive relief can take as little as half a day. Best, Volker Am 20.07.2015 um 17:15 schrieb McGrady, Paul D.: Thanks Volker. I’m pretty sure it won’t do any good to get drawn into a conversation about the consequences of service providers being and permanently staying the RNH, since that is not what is really being discussed. The conversation has evolved well past that point and a long, long time ago. I would, however, appreciate your substantive thoughts on how we balance the need for consumers who are victims of scams and crime (even if those consumers don’t happen to be domain name registrants or P/P customers) within the “court order only” paradigm which on its face is woefully inadequate to bring about a timely remedy. It is now axiomatic in common law jurisdictions that “Justice delayed is justice denied.” I’m looking forward to your reply. Thanks for your time. Best, Paul From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] Sent: Monday, July 20, 2015 9:03 AM To: McGrady, Paul D.; James Gannon; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments Privacy or proxy services do not conflict with section 3.3.1.6 of the RAA (nor RA) as formally, the service provider is the RNH in a proxy form. Volker Am 20.07.2015 um 14:25 schrieb McGrady, Paul D.: Thanks James. The ship has already sailed on option a). See 3.3.1.6 of the RA noting the mandatory requirement of the disclosure of “The name and postal address of the Registered Name Holder.” What this team is discussing is how to develop an framework for exceptions to 3.3.1.6 that does not create a safe haven for human traffickers, cyber-bullies, and other nefarious types that would harm non-commercial users of the Internet. It is not within our remit to undo 3.3.1.6, no matter how many form comments are posted asking that we do so. Our remit is finding what circumstances warrant the exception through allowing WHOIS modification and which do not, the means to communicate to someone who is legitimately using such WHOIS modification services, and the terms upon which such allowable WHOIS modification will be terminated if it is being used to abuse others. Even if abolishing 3.3.1.6 were a possibility and the DNS wasn’t built on a series of contracts (which it is), I see no particular upside to telling parents of children being bullied online, geriatric victims of banking scams, and targets of pay-in-advance credit offers that they have to wait months while their local court order requiring disclosure makes its way through the Hague Convention service process in order to be effectuated by a far-away privacy service. Although we have heard much about protecting the rights of non-commercial users of the Internet who happen to be domain name registrants as well and who are using P/P services (and we should be concerned about them), we also need to keep in mind the other non-commercial users of the Internet who will also be affected – even if they have not contributed financially to the system by purchasing a domain name. I for one hope we can get back on track and discuss the substantive, relevant comments and reach final consensus on the handful of outstanding issues and get a report in to the GNSO that reflects a sensible balance. Regards, Paul From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of James Gannon Sent: Monday, July 20, 2015 5:51 AM To: Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments Agreed Volker I would put my analysis in set A aswell. -James From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Monday, July 20, 2015 11:37 AM To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments Hi Steve, these comments can be read in different ways: a) ICANN should not implement policy that requires disclosure without a court order, or b) no disclosure should be allowed without a court order. I tend to interpret the comments as being in the a) column Best, Volker Am 17.07.2015 um 21:42 schrieb Metalitz, Steven: No, James, we should certainly consider those concerns but not necessarily change the report. The single concern raised more often than any other, I am positive, is that proxy services should not be permitted to disclose any information on their customer without a court order. That is not a standard that your service or any other that I know of can meet. We can change our report to make that a requirement for privacy/proxy service providers. Should we? Steve From: James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com] Sent: Friday, July 17, 2015 3:35 PM To: Metalitz, Steven Cc: Kathy Kleiman; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments Steve: With respect, if several thousand commenters raised issues that concern them, but are not addressed by our report, the our focus should be on changing the report, not discounting the comments. Thank you, J. ____________ James Bladel GoDaddy On Jul 17, 2015, at 21:20, Metalitz, Steven <met@msk.com<mailto:met@msk.com>> wrote: I am all in favor of people identifying topics they believe need to be addressed by the WG. However, Kathy, I have to disagree with your premise, which is that the ten thousand plus comments reflect responses to our questions or even statements of agreement or disagreement to our consensus positions or report proposals A much smaller (though still significant) number of comments do that, and those should be our top priority for review and response. But the vast majority of comments clearly are not responses to our report. These mass comments raise a very limited number of issues, which I don’t think we will that much difficulty dealing with once we have addressed the responses to our questions and the reasoned statements of agreement or disagreement with specific proposals we have made. Let’s get started on the more substantive comments, starting with the questions we did pose. We have subteams forming to start to tackle that, and the staff (and Graeme!) are providing some tools to try to help facilitate that. For those who don’t wish to join subteams, again, I agree it would be useful to identify (as you put it) the “major issues and concerns” that you find in the comments, with citations to those comments that you believe raise those major issues and concerns. Steve From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 6:34 PM To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments Hi Don, Steve, Graeme, Mary and all WG members, I would like recommend that we take a slightly different approach. We received over ten thousand comments, many coming from those who do not ordinarily participate in the ICANN process. They wrote to us us not only in response to our specific questions, but also to share agreement (and disagreement) to our consensus positions/report proposals, and to explain why proxy/privacy registrations are important to them. There has been a huge outpouring particularly on the last issue. While a few topics for cataloging these comments were presented on the call, with great respect, I do not think we have dealt with or cataloged all of the major issues and concerns raised by the comments yet. Before we leap forward to subteams and analysis, shouldn't we ask further, in writing, and with the whole of the WG participating -- have we gotten the topics right? Have we created sufficient topics to allow us to catalog the broad range of information, concerns and comments shared with us by so many commenters? I would like to request that we be able to take big breath, and a slightly (only slightly!) different approach. In preparation for Tuesday's call, could we all skim the comments -- with our array of expertise, insight, knowledge of aspects of our commenter base -- to come up with topics that we think the WG should evaluate in tour review? Perhaps if we can circulate the topics online, and then discuss them on Tuesday. Then we discuss how these topics/this substance might be overlaid on the subteam process laid out below and shared for the first time on last week's call. We will then have both substance and process! And we will know that we have considered all of the major issues arising from these important comments. If we go forward now without this evaluation, I fear we may be missing much of what the comments have to offer. Best and tx, Kathy From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Mary Wong Sent: 14 July 2015 23:50 To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A proposed approach for reviewing public comments Dear WG members, Following from the WG call earlier today, the co-chairs and staff after some consultation would like to propose the following approach for your consideration: 1. Use of Sub Teams for Specific Topics: * Sub-teams comprising a few WG volunteers each can be formed to do the initial review of public comments received on the three topics suggested by Steve on the call, i.e. (1) Section 1.3.2 of the Initial Report (on escalation of relay requests and the handling of disclosure/publication requests from third parties other than IP rights holders); (2) Section 1.3.3 (on the open question regarding online financial transactions); and (3) Annex E (the Illustrative Disclosure Framework). * To assist the WG evaluate the usefulness of sub teams, a sub team for Section 1.3.2 can be formed first and serve as a “test case” for the exercise. * As outlined on the call, a sub team will do a “first pass” through a template, based on the Public Comment Review Tool, that staff will populate with all the input received on that particular issue. The sub team will report back to the full WG in a timely fashion, including suggesting a WG response and/or proposed action in relation to the comments received. * Sub teams may elect to do their work via email and online tools (e.g. Google Docs or a wiki page), with or without supplemental conference calls. Any calls will be recorded and transcribed for transparency purposes, and drafts and other documents prepared using online tools will also be made available to the full WG. (Do note, however, that depending on call scheduling and timing, staff support may not be available for all requested calls if several sub teams are used concurrently) PLEASE VOLUNTEER FOR SUB TEAM 1.3.2 IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN ASSISTING WITH THIS INITIAL REVIEW. Staff will endeavor to provide the template tool for 1.3.2 to the sub team as soon as possible, hopefully by Monday. 2. Full WG Review of Other Comments to Continue in Parallel: * Staff will “collapse” (per James’ suggestion on the call) all those template responses received that were simply a Yes or No answer to a question, without any further comment added – these will be reflected in the Public Comment Review Tool accordingly, as a single collective entry. The current Tool (covering Preliminary Recommendations 1 through 9) will be updated in time for the WG to begin this review on the next call. 3. Collated Information: * In addition to the updated spreadsheet just circulated by Graeme, we can also send you archived mail files of the contributions received to the public comment forum, should you or your group wish to conduct searches through each comment yourselves. We hope the above will be helpful in facilitating good progress on the work to be done in preparation for the Final Report. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> ________________________________ Confidentiality Notice This message is being sent by or on behalf of a lawyer. It is intended exclusively for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. This communication may contain information that is proprietary, privileged or confidential or otherwise legally exempt from disclosure. If you are not the named addressee, you are not authorized to read, print, retain, copy or disseminate this message or any part of it. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete all copies of the message. _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icannorg> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twittercom/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. 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Barry, Thanks for your comments. I think you would be interested in the past interventions of Dick Leaning, who was the LE representative on this group until his retirement from Europol on July 1st of this year, and in the public safety working group comment drafted by Bobby Flaim from the FBI and Loreen Kapin from the FTC (with Dick's input). They have statedon multiple occasions that getting a warrant isn't a 15 minute thing. I'll let them speak for themselves but suffice to say that they prefer a system that doesn't require a warrant. Anyway, I just wanted to point out that they've given their recommendations formally. Happy lurking! Kiran Kiran Malancharuvil Policy Counselor MarkMonitor 415-419-9138 (m) Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.

On Jul 21, 2015, at 8:12 PM, Barry Shein <bzs@world.std.com> wrote:

I apologize for posting at all since I'm not much involved but I'm sort of surprised at the level of speculation about law enforcement.

As an ISP I've been in the middle of this sort of thing.

In a nutshell there are large and huge and tiny LEAs and they're all quite different in their response.

I've dealt with the FBI who can turn out a proper warrant in about 15 minutes and college campus police (colleges you've heard of) who could be incredibly unprofessional -- one threatened, and I mean angrily threatened, that if I didn't produce the credentials immediately (I stood my ground for a warrant, it was basically cyberstalking) they would "show up at my office". I said they were welcome, I'd make the coffee, and got in touch with the university's general counsel. I could post that interchange but as you can imagine they were horribly embarrassed.

Why not get someone from an LEA or two involved even informally rather than speculate?

So much of this is in the name of law enforcement yet my impression is that law enforcement per se hasn't been engaged.

A DA wouldn't hurt either since they have to build the cases and wield the prosecutorial discretion which is really what you're ultimately trying to support.

Sorry, I'll go back to lurking.

-- -Barry Shein

The World | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 800-THE-WRLD | Dial-Up: US, PR, Canada Software Tool & Die | Public Access Internet | SINCE 1989 *oo* _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg

We got the recommendations of the Public Safety Working Group which is Kiran Malancharuvil Policy Counselor MarkMonitor 415-419-9138 (m) Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.

On Jul 21, 2015, at 9:46 PM, Stephanie Perrin <stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca> wrote:

Do we actually have the recommendations of Leaning, Flaim, and Loreen Kapin formally in writing? I have not seen them in the comments but I will admit I have not read them all...or did we get a formal written brief from them earlier? ANd thanks for your interventions Barry! cheers Stephanie Perrin

...

On 2015-07-21 23:59, Kiran Malancharuvil wrote: Barry,

Thanks for your comments. I think you would be interested in the past interventions of Dick Leaning, who was the LE representative on this group until his retirement from Europol on July 1st of this year, and in the public safety working group comment drafted by Bobby Flaim from the FBI and Loreen Kapin from the FTC (with Dick's input). They have statedon multiple occasions that getting a warrant isn't a 15 minute thing. I'll let them speak for themselves but suffice to say that they prefer a system that doesn't require a warrant.

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that they've given their recommendations formally.

Happy lurking!

Kiran

Kiran Malancharuvil Policy Counselor MarkMonitor 415-419-9138 (m)

Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.

...

On Jul 21, 2015, at 8:12 PM, Barry Shein <bzs@world.std.com> wrote:

I apologize for posting at all since I'm not much involved but I'm sort of surprised at the level of speculation about law enforcement.

As an ISP I've been in the middle of this sort of thing.

In a nutshell there are large and huge and tiny LEAs and they're all quite different in their response.

I've dealt with the FBI who can turn out a proper warrant in about 15 minutes and college campus police (colleges you've heard of) who could be incredibly unprofessional -- one threatened, and I mean angrily threatened, that if I didn't produce the credentials immediately (I stood my ground for a warrant, it was basically cyberstalking) they would "show up at my office". I said they were welcome, I'd make the coffee, and got in touch with the university's general counsel. I could post that interchange but as you can imagine they were horribly embarrassed.

Why not get someone from an LEA or two involved even informally rather than speculate?

So much of this is in the name of law enforcement yet my impression is that law enforcement per se hasn't been engaged.

A DA wouldn't hurt either since they have to build the cases and wield the prosecutorial discretion which is really what you're ultimately trying to support.

Sorry, I'll go back to lurking.

-- -Barry Shein

The World | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 800-THE-WRLD | Dial-Up: US, PR, Canada Software Tool & Die | Public Access Internet | SINCE 1989 *oo* _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg

---

Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg

_______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg

Does anyone have a link to their submission? I know they were drafting one, but I don’t recall seeing it Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains http://www.blacknight.host/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.blacknight.press - get our latest news & media coverage http://www.technology.ie Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Social: http://mneylon.social Random Stuff: http://www.michele.irish/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845 On 22/07/2015 04:59, "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org on behalf of Kiran Malancharuvil" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org on behalf of Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com> wrote:

Barry,

Thanks for your comments. I think you would be interested in the past interventions of Dick Leaning, who was the LE representative on this group until his retirement from Europol on July 1st of this year, and in the public safety working group comment drafted by Bobby Flaim from the FBI and Loreen Kapin from the FTC (with Dick's input). They have statedon multiple occasions that getting a warrant isn't a 15 minute thing. I'll let them speak for themselves but suffice to say that they prefer a system that doesn't require a warrant.

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that they've given their recommendations formally.

Happy lurking!

Kiran

Kiran Malancharuvil Policy Counselor MarkMonitor 415-419-9138 (m)

Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.

...

On Jul 21, 2015, at 8:12 PM, Barry Shein <bzs@world.std.com> wrote:

I apologize for posting at all since I'm not much involved but I'm sort of surprised at the level of speculation about law enforcement.

As an ISP I've been in the middle of this sort of thing.

In a nutshell there are large and huge and tiny LEAs and they're all quite different in their response.

I've dealt with the FBI who can turn out a proper warrant in about 15 minutes and college campus police (colleges you've heard of) who could be incredibly unprofessional -- one threatened, and I mean angrily threatened, that if I didn't produce the credentials immediately (I stood my ground for a warrant, it was basically cyberstalking) they would "show up at my office". I said they were welcome, I'd make the coffee, and got in touch with the university's general counsel. I could post that interchange but as you can imagine they were horribly embarrassed.

Why not get someone from an LEA or two involved even informally rather than speculate?

So much of this is in the name of law enforcement yet my impression is that law enforcement per se hasn't been engaged.

A DA wouldn't hurt either since they have to build the cases and wield the prosecutorial discretion which is really what you're ultimately trying to support.

Sorry, I'll go back to lurking.

-- -Barry Shein

The World | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 800-THE-WRLD | Dial-Up: US, PR, Canada Software Tool & Die | Public Access Internet | SINCE 1989 *oo* _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg

---

Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg

Hello Kiran and everyone, The PSWG did not seem to have submitted their comments to the PPSAI public comments forum. I checked around internally and do not think they sent it in or published it. As such, ICANN policy staff doesn¹t have any records or copies of it and so whatever PSWG statement was drafted has not been included or reflected in our documents, including the various templates comprising the Public Comment Review Tool. Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org -----Original Message----- From: <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Kiran Malancharuvil <Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com> Date: Wednesday, July 22, 2015 at 11:58 To: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com> Cc: "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approachfor reviewing public comments

Good question. Since I was loathe to sort through zillions of pages looking for the comments I wanted to read initially, I requested the comments directly from Bobby and he emailed them to me. I don't think Dick has access to this list anymore, but I will ask them to forward a link or attachment and I will pass it along?

K

Kiran Malancharuvil Policy Counselor MarkMonitor 415-419-9138 (m)

Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.

...

On Jul 22, 2015, at 1:15 AM, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com> wrote:

Does anyone have a link to their submission?

I know they were drafting one, but I don¹t recall seeing it

Regards

Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains http://www.blacknight.host/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.blacknight.press - get our latest news & media coverage http://www.technology.ie Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Social: http://mneylon.social Random Stuff: http://www.michele.irish/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845

...

On 22/07/2015 04:59, "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org on behalf of Kiran Malancharuvil" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org on behalf of Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com> wrote:

Barry,

Thanks for your comments. I think you would be interested in the past interventions of Dick Leaning, who was the LE representative on this group until his retirement from Europol on July 1st of this year, and in the public safety working group comment drafted by Bobby Flaim from the FBI and Loreen Kapin from the FTC (with Dick's input). They have statedon multiple occasions that getting a warrant isn't a 15 minute thing. I'll let them speak for themselves but suffice to say that they prefer a system that doesn't require a warrant.

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that they've given their recommendations formally.

Happy lurking!

Kiran

Kiran Malancharuvil Policy Counselor MarkMonitor 415-419-9138 (m)

Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.

...

On Jul 21, 2015, at 8:12 PM, Barry Shein <bzs@world.std.com> wrote:

I apologize for posting at all since I'm not much involved but I'm sort of surprised at the level of speculation about law enforcement.

As an ISP I've been in the middle of this sort of thing.

In a nutshell there are large and huge and tiny LEAs and they're all quite different in their response.

I've dealt with the FBI who can turn out a proper warrant in about 15 minutes and college campus police (colleges you've heard of) who could be incredibly unprofessional -- one threatened, and I mean angrily threatened, that if I didn't produce the credentials immediately (I stood my ground for a warrant, it was basically cyberstalking) they would "show up at my office". I said they were welcome, I'd make the coffee, and got in touch with the university's general counsel. I could post that interchange but as you can imagine they were horribly embarrassed.

Why not get someone from an LEA or two involved even informally rather than speculate?

So much of this is in the name of law enforcement yet my impression is that law enforcement per se hasn't been engaged.

A DA wouldn't hurt either since they have to build the cases and wield the prosecutorial discretion which is really what you're ultimately trying to support.

Sorry, I'll go back to lurking.

-- -Barry Shein

The World | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 800-THE-WRLD | Dial-Up: US, PR, Canada Software Tool & Die | Public Access Internet | SINCE 1989 *oo* _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg

---

Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg

---

Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg

Thanks, Kiran - as with all the comments we are compiling for the WG, the sheer volume could mean that we may have missed it, so we’d appreciate it if this can be clarified. Similarly, and more broadly, as the WG reviews the comments, please let us know if there are responses that we should have included in the templates that we did not. Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org -----Original Message----- From: Kiran Malancharuvil <Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com> Date: Wednesday, July 22, 2015 at 12:22 To: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org> Cc: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com>, "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approachfor reviewing public comments

Yikes. Let's ask Bobby and Dick what happened there. LEA input is valuable and we should consider it, even if outside the formal public comment process.

Kiran Malancharuvil Policy Counselor MarkMonitor 415-419-9138 (m)

Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.

...

On Jul 22, 2015, at 9:18 AM, Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org> wrote:

Hello Kiran and everyone,

The PSWG did not seem to have submitted their comments to the PPSAI public comments forum. I checked around internally and do not think they sent it in or published it. As such, ICANN policy staff doesn¹t have any records or copies of it and so whatever PSWG statement was drafted has not been included or reflected in our documents, including the various templates comprising the Public Comment Review Tool.

Cheers Mary

Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org

-----Original Message----- From: <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Kiran Malancharuvil <Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com> Date: Wednesday, July 22, 2015 at 11:58 To: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com> Cc: "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approachfor reviewing public comments

...

Good question. Since I was loathe to sort through zillions of pages looking for the comments I wanted to read initially, I requested the comments directly from Bobby and he emailed them to me. I don't think Dick has access to this list anymore, but I will ask them to forward a link or attachment and I will pass it along?

K

Kiran Malancharuvil Policy Counselor MarkMonitor 415-419-9138 (m)

Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.

...

On Jul 22, 2015, at 1:15 AM, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com> wrote:

Does anyone have a link to their submission?

I know they were drafting one, but I don¹t recall seeing it

Regards

Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains http://www.blacknight.host/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.blacknight.press - get our latest news & media coverage http://www.technology.ie Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Social: http://mneylon.social Random Stuff: http://www.michele.irish/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845

...

On 22/07/2015 04:59, "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org on behalf of Kiran Malancharuvil" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org on behalf of Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com> wrote:

Barry,

Thanks for your comments. I think you would be interested in the past interventions of Dick Leaning, who was the LE representative on this group until his retirement from Europol on July 1st of this year, and in the public safety working group comment drafted by Bobby Flaim from the FBI and Loreen Kapin from the FTC (with Dick's input). They have statedon multiple occasions that getting a warrant isn't a 15 minute thing. I'll let them speak for themselves but suffice to say that they prefer a system that doesn't require a warrant.

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that they've given their recommendations formally.

Happy lurking!

Kiran

Kiran Malancharuvil Policy Counselor MarkMonitor 415-419-9138 (m)

Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.

...

On Jul 21, 2015, at 8:12 PM, Barry Shein <bzs@world.std.com> wrote:

I apologize for posting at all since I'm not much involved but I'm sort of surprised at the level of speculation about law enforcement.

As an ISP I've been in the middle of this sort of thing.

In a nutshell there are large and huge and tiny LEAs and they're all quite different in their response.

I've dealt with the FBI who can turn out a proper warrant in about 15 minutes and college campus police (colleges you've heard of) who could be incredibly unprofessional -- one threatened, and I mean angrily threatened, that if I didn't produce the credentials immediately (I stood my ground for a warrant, it was basically cyberstalking) they would "show up at my office". I said they were welcome, I'd make the coffee, and got in touch with the university's general counsel. I could post that interchange but as you can imagine they were horribly embarrassed.

Why not get someone from an LEA or two involved even informally rather than speculate?

So much of this is in the name of law enforcement yet my impression is that law enforcement per se hasn't been engaged.

A DA wouldn't hurt either since they have to build the cases and wield the prosecutorial discretion which is really what you're ultimately trying to support.

Sorry, I'll go back to lurking.

-- -Barry Shein

The World | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 800-THE-WRLD | Dial-Up: US, PR, Canada Software Tool & Die | Public Access Internet | SINCE 1989 *oo* _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg

---

Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg

---

Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg

Agree, Stephanie. No one disagrees that LEA input is vital. And Registrars, in particular, have been building a more engaging relationship with LEA/Public Safety over the past year. This stems mostly from our experiences during the 2013 RAA negotiations, where asks were made in private, but later disavowed. I understand the nature of LEA is that they cannot always participate on the record, or speak for their agencies. But it is significantly more helpful when they do. Thanks— J. From: <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Stephanie Perrin <stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca<mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca>> Date: Wednesday, July 22, 2015 at 12:01 To: PPSAI WG <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approachfor reviewing public comments I agree the input is important, but they should put it on the public record. Stephanie Perrin On 2015-07-22 12:26, Mary Wong wrote: Thanks, Kiran - as with all the comments we are compiling for the WG, the sheer volume could mean that we may have missed it, so we’d appreciate it if this can be clarified. Similarly, and more broadly, as the WG reviews the comments, please let us know if there are responses that we should have included in the templates that we did not. Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> -----Original Message----- From: Kiran Malancharuvil <Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com><mailto:Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com> Date: Wednesday, July 22, 2015 at 12:22 To: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org><mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> Cc: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com><mailto:michele@blacknight.com>, "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org"<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org><mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approachfor reviewing public comments Yikes. Let's ask Bobby and Dick what happened there. LEA input is valuable and we should consider it, even if outside the formal public comment process. Kiran Malancharuvil Policy Counselor MarkMonitor 415-419-9138 (m) Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos. On Jul 22, 2015, at 9:18 AM, Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org><mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> wrote: Hello Kiran and everyone, The PSWG did not seem to have submitted their comments to the PPSAI public comments forum. I checked around internally and do not think they sent it in or published it. As such, ICANN policy staff doesn¹t have any records or copies of it and so whatever PSWG statement was drafted has not been included or reflected in our documents, including the various templates comprising the Public Comment Review Tool. Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4889 Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org> -----Original Message----- From: <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org><mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Kiran Malancharuvil <Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com><mailto:Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com> Date: Wednesday, July 22, 2015 at 11:58 To: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com><mailto:michele@blacknight.com> Cc: "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org"<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org><mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approachfor reviewing public comments Good question. Since I was loathe to sort through zillions of pages looking for the comments I wanted to read initially, I requested the comments directly from Bobby and he emailed them to me. I don't think Dick has access to this list anymore, but I will ask them to forward a link or attachment and I will pass it along? K Kiran Malancharuvil Policy Counselor MarkMonitor 415-419-9138 (m) Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos. On Jul 22, 2015, at 1:15 AM, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com><mailto:michele@blacknight.com> wrote: Does anyone have a link to their submission? I know they were drafting one, but I don¹t recall seeing it Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains http://www.blacknight.host/http://blog.blacknight.com/http://www.blacknight.... - get our latest news & media coverage http://www.technology.ie Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Social: http://mneylon.social Random Stuff: http://www.michele.irish/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845 On 22/07/2015 04:59, "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org on behalf of Kiran Malancharuvil"<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.orgonbehalfofKiranMalancharuvil> <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org on behalf of Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com><mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.orgonbehalfofKiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com> wrote: Barry, Thanks for your comments. I think you would be interested in the past interventions of Dick Leaning, who was the LE representative on this group until his retirement from Europol on July 1st of this year, and in the public safety working group comment drafted by Bobby Flaim from the FBI and Loreen Kapin from the FTC (with Dick's input). They have statedon multiple occasions that getting a warrant isn't a 15 minute thing. I'll let them speak for themselves but suffice to say that they prefer a system that doesn't require a warrant. Anyway, I just wanted to point out that they've given their recommendations formally. Happy lurking! Kiran Kiran Malancharuvil Policy Counselor MarkMonitor 415-419-9138 (m) Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos. On Jul 21, 2015, at 8:12 PM, Barry Shein <bzs@world.std.com><mailto:bzs@world.std.com> wrote: I apologize for posting at all since I'm not much involved but I'm sort of surprised at the level of speculation about law enforcement. As an ISP I've been in the middle of this sort of thing. In a nutshell there are large and huge and tiny LEAs and they're all quite different in their response. I've dealt with the FBI who can turn out a proper warrant in about 15 minutes and college campus police (colleges you've heard of) who could be incredibly unprofessional -- one threatened, and I mean angrily threatened, that if I didn't produce the credentials immediately (I stood my ground for a warrant, it was basically cyberstalking) they would "show up at my office". I said they were welcome, I'd make the coffee, and got in touch with the university's general counsel. I could post that interchange but as you can imagine they were horribly embarrassed. Why not get someone from an LEA or two involved even informally rather than speculate? So much of this is in the name of law enforcement yet my impression is that law enforcement per se hasn't been engaged. A DA wouldn't hurt either since they have to build the cases and wield the prosecutorial discretion which is really what you're ultimately trying to support. Sorry, I'll go back to lurking. -- -Barry Shein The World | bzs@TheWorld.com<mailto:bzs@TheWorld.com> | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 800-THE-WRLD | Dial-Up: US, PR, Canada Software Tool & Die | Public Access Internet | SINCE 1989 *oo* _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg

Speaking very specifically to the LEA access issues: It's important to note number of things when we are speaking in relation to Law Enforcement Access. There are two issues at hand for P/P, wants and needs. Law Enforcement has a need for Privacy Proxy providers to comply with the duly authorized requests of law enforcement through a national warrant, court order or other official legal vehicle including MLATs or other international mechanisms for interagency cooperation. I don't think anyone would claim that we are attempting to hinder or complicate this need. And indeed by formalizing the P/P world I would argue we are actively helping them in this area. Law enforcement has a want to gain easier access to the details of registrants who are utilizing P/P services without having to go through the traditional means of access listed above. It's important to note that this is not a need. We are not claiming that LEAs will never have access to a registrants data if they follow the due course process in their respective jurisdictions. There are valid points from Bobby and Im sure others who will say that these processes are too slow for certain investigations. And I am sure that that may be the case for certain jurisdictions, although not in others. However with respect I suggest that this is an issue for national legislatures to address. We are not an elected legislative body at ICANN, and I do not believe that it is our job to fix the problem of speed of a warrant process for a Law Enforcement agency. By wading into this extremely complex matter of international and national law I believe that we are stepping outside our mandate and outside of the wishes of the greater ICANN community. We do not have the authority or experience to recreate a system that already exists, a system whereby LEAs are able to access the data that they require in order to complete their work, and work which is absolutely critical to national safety. However if the argument is that the nationally and internationally recognized system of law to gain access to personal information is not fast enough for the LEA community then respectfully I suggest that that is an issue to be dealt with at a national legislation and MLAT level, not at ICANN working group level. As Volker noted below, if an LEA needs a faster system, then it's up to them to request that from their nation states of residence as none of us are asking for anything more than due process to be followed and that we do not attempt to create methods of access that are essentially a side road around the rule of law that we live under. To op-ed slightly on this, we have seen what happens when side roads are created with the NSA and public surveillance scandals in the USA, there is no public appetite internationally to circumvent the rule of law when it comes to people's privacy. I hope that we won't be party to creating another side road that no one wants to have. -James Gannon -----Original Message----- From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 10:01 AM To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approachfor reviewing public comments Hi Kiran, while it may not be a 15 minute thing, it is the legal process their legislative has deemed fit to place in front of them being able to demand anything they want. If the individual governments wanted to change that process and give them instant access, they would (and do (looking at the NSA folks)). Volker Am 22.07.2015 um 05:59 schrieb Kiran Malancharuvil:

Barry,

Thanks for your comments. I think you would be interested in the past interventions of Dick Leaning, who was the LE representative on this group until his retirement from Europol on July 1st of this year, and in the public safety working group comment drafted by Bobby Flaim from the FBI and Loreen Kapin from the FTC (with Dick's input). They have statedon multiple occasions that getting a warrant isn't a 15 minute thing. I'll let them speak for themselves but suffice to say that they prefer a system that doesn't require a warrant.

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that they've given their recommendations formally.

Happy lurking!

Kiran

Kiran Malancharuvil Policy Counselor MarkMonitor 415-419-9138 (m)

Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.

...

On Jul 21, 2015, at 8:12 PM, Barry Shein <bzs@world.std.com> wrote:

I apologize for posting at all since I'm not much involved but I'm sort of surprised at the level of speculation about law enforcement.

As an ISP I've been in the middle of this sort of thing.

In a nutshell there are large and huge and tiny LEAs and they're all quite different in their response.

I've dealt with the FBI who can turn out a proper warrant in about 15 minutes and college campus police (colleges you've heard of) who could be incredibly unprofessional -- one threatened, and I mean angrily threatened, that if I didn't produce the credentials immediately (I stood my ground for a warrant, it was basically cyberstalking) they would "show up at my office". I said they were welcome, I'd make the coffee, and got in touch with the university's general counsel. I could post that interchange but as you can imagine they were horribly embarrassed.

Why not get someone from an LEA or two involved even informally rather than speculate?

So much of this is in the name of law enforcement yet my impression is that law enforcement per se hasn't been engaged.

A DA wouldn't hurt either since they have to build the cases and wield the prosecutorial discretion which is really what you're ultimately trying to support.

Sorry, I'll go back to lurking.

-- -Barry Shein

The World | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 800-THE-WRLD | Dial-Up: US, PR, Canada Software Tool & Die | Public Access Internet | SINCE 1989 *oo* _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg

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-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg

while it may not be a 15 minute thing...

Just to clarify one small point which seems to have become a matter of dispute for some reason: Yes I have personally been called by the FBI asking for personal details, logs, etc of a customer, I requested a warrant, and received one via fax within about 15 minutes. But that isn't to say it's the normal or typical experience, only that it has happened to me so it's apparently possible. P.S. Cheap Shot while my keyboard is still working: There's also the liability issue regarding releasing personal information without some sort of indemnification or transfer of authority. In a sentence, people lie (e.g., even to LEA) to get credentials etc, and then the targets get angry and their lawyers see the releaser of the credentials as a deep pockets target. Usually over "community property" in (ugly) divorce cases or similar business value disputes. I think James Gannon is closer to my view, don't invent what you don't absolutely have to. -- -Barry Shein The World | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 800-THE-WRLD | Dial-Up: US, PR, Canada Software Tool & Die | Public Access Internet | SINCE 1989 *oo*