September 2015 - Latingp - lists.icann.org

Correction: Discussion of the Armenian GP request
by Paul Hoffman Oct. 15, 2015

Oct. 15, 2015

[[ As Eric Brunner-Williams pointed out on our first call, I had a pretty serious typo in the message I sent out yesterday. This is the corrected version. ]] It is not clear to me that the Latin GP should addressing the issues that were sent to us by the Armenian GP. Here are a few thoughts on the subject. 1) The Integration Panel believes that the Armenian script is separable from the Latin script, according to Section 3.8.3 of the MSR2. 2) Section B.3.4.2 of the LGR Procedures document says "Finally, in investigating the possible variant relations, Generation Panels should ignore cases where the relation is based exclusively on aspects of visual similarity." 3) Even ignoring the previous two points, the request seems to be for cross-script variants, such as for an Armenian letter that looks like a Latin letter. The "Guidelines for LGR" document indicates that cross-script variants might be created, but gives no hints about why we should do that given that the root zone will consist of labels of a single script (according to Section A.3.1). This feels to me like the Armenian GP's submission is not related to ours, so we should not be commenting on it. --Paul Hoffman

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Presentation for IDN Program session in Dublin
by Dillon, Chris Sept. 30, 2015

Sept. 30, 2015

Dear colleagues, Please find attached a second version of the presentation for the IDN Program session in Dublin. Please give it a critical read, especially your entry in the members list on Slide 6. I was able to implement most of the edits you suggested. Sorry if I have missed any. Unfortunately, I was not able to make changes to the map in Slide 3 which has defeated my best efforts (both with the Smart Edge tool in Paint Shop Pro and my lower-tech light-green felt-tip pen). Despite this, I am for keeping the map, as it gives a good indication of the wide usage of Latin, which is useful as we look for further expertise for the panel. Please get any edits to me by 21:00 UTC tomorrow, Thursday. Regards, Chris. -- Research Associate in Linguistic Computing, Centre for Digital Humanities, UCL, Gower St, London WC1E 6BT Tel +44 20 7679 1599 (int 31599) www.ucl.ac.uk/dis/people/chrisdillon<http://www.ucl.ac.uk/dis/people/chrisdillon>

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Presentation for IDN Program session in Dublin
by Dillon, Chris Sept. 29, 2015

Sept. 29, 2015

Dear colleagues, Please find attached the first draft of a presentation intended for the IDN Program session (10:30 on Monday 21 Sept.) at ICANN Dublin. I had originally hoped to be able to give more than one regional example, but there is a maximum slide limit of seven slides. Meikal Mumin has contributed a slide on Latin script use in Africa for this purpose. If we want to do more than one example, one of the other slides will need to go ... Anyway, as usual, I welcome your corrections, edits and additions, by UTC 21:00 on Thursday 1 October. Incidentally, please send any final edits for the Armenian public comment by UTC 21:00 tomorrow, Tues. 29 September. Regards, Chris. -- Research Associate in Linguistic Computing, Centre for Digital Humanities, UCL, Gower St, London WC1E 6BT Tel +44 20 7679 1599 (int 31599) www.ucl.ac.uk/dis/people/chrisdillon<http://www.ucl.ac.uk/dis/people/chrisdillon>

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Re: [Latingp] Presentation for IDN Program session in Dublin
by Hazem Hezzah Sept. 28, 2015

Sept. 28, 2015

I don't know if Arabic chat language, being a casual language, should be considered as one if the languages using Latin script?. If so, we could add a line at the 3rd slide pointing to it, since non-arabic speakers barely knows about it. Regards, Hazem Hezzah - Sent from my mobile phone - "Dillon, Chris" <c.dillon(a)ucl.ac.uk> wrote: >_______________________________________________ >Latingp mailing list >Latingp(a)icann.org >https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/latingp

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Re: [Latingp] Public comment for your comments
by Paul Hoffman Sept. 25, 2015

Sept. 25, 2015

Of course, you can say what you want, but it is possibly confusing for you to say "Chris Dillon. Latin Generation Panel" rather than just "Chris Dillon". The Latin Generation Panel still does not know whether the Integration Panel believes that there can possibly be homoglyphs across separable scripts, so putting "Latin Generation Panel" at the end of your letter may give the impression that we as a panel agree with your assertion about the homoglyph. Just to be clear: I truly don't know whether there can be homoglyphs across separable scripts, or whether Armenian and Latin are actually separable. Neither is clear to me from what we have heard so far from the Integration Panel, but I suspect we'll know much more after asking them. From the many written documents we have, I suspect that the answer to these questions are for the Integration Panel to make, not each individual Generation Panel. --Paul Hoffman

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Sound recording of email of Tuesday 22nd's meeting
by Dillon, Chris Sept. 24, 2015

Sept. 24, 2015

Dear colleagues, The sound file of our recent meeting is now in the wiki for download, for those of you who couldn't make it: https://community.icann.org/display/croscomlgrprocedure/22+September+2015 It is not too large, about 5.5MB. Regards, Chris. -- Research Associate in Linguistic Computing, Centre for Digital Humanities, UCL, Gower St, London WC1E 6BT Tel +44 20 7679 1599 (int 31599) www.ucl.ac.uk/dis/people/chrisdillon<http://www.ucl.ac.uk/dis/people/chrisdillon>

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Public comment for your comments
by Dillon, Chris Sept. 24, 2015

Sept. 24, 2015

Dear colleagues, The deadline for comments on the Armenian proposal (30 Sept.) is closer than one would think because of the weekend. I am intending to submit a simple public comment, not necessarily representative of the LGP. Please see it below. I have not given a list of visually similar characters, although the following letters not in the proposal may also be an issue: Lower case 1. ա (AYB) "w'' in Latin Upper case 1. Ձ (JA) to number 2 2. Տ (TYOWN) to S This is because I think the key thing is the homoglyph issue, rather than visual similarity. I have also not used the word "separable" as there could be a debate about whether one homoglyph means unseparable scripts. I would be grateful for your help in improving it. Regards, Chris. == Dear colleagues, I would like to congratulate the Armenian Panel on its work in the production of the Armenian proposal. Apart from various cases where Armenian letters are visually similar to Latin letters, I believe there is one homoglyph: օ U+0585 Armenian small letter OH and o U+006F Latin small letter O Regards, Chris Dillon. Latin Generation Panel -- Research Associate in Linguistic Computing, Centre for Digital Humanities, UCL, Gower St, London WC1E 6BT Tel +44 20 7679 1599 (int 31599) www.ucl.ac.uk/dis/people/chrisdillon<http://www.ucl.ac.uk/dis/people/chrisdillon>

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Today's meeting
by Dillon, Chris Sept. 23, 2015

Sept. 23, 2015

Dear colleagues, I've collected a few useful things together in preparation for today's meeting at UTC 17:00. This site helps with times: http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com<http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/> I've put the agenda here: https://community.icann.org/display/croscomlgrprocedure/22+September+2015 with links to some useful documents. Let me know if you would like to add items. How to connect: Link to Adobe Connect: http://icann.adobeconnect.com/lgr/ *Upon logging into Adobe Connect, a pop up window will provide you the option to Dial Out to your Phone. Enter your Phone Number* (Remember to change the Country Code if needed). After joining the call, as a courtesy to others and the presenters, please MUTE your phone. This can be done by selecting *6 on your keypad. To UNMUTE select *6 again. Looking forward to speaking later, Chris. == Research Associate in Linguistic Computing, Centre for Digital Humanities, UCL, Gower St, London WC1E 6BT Tel +44 20 7679 1599 (int 31599) www.ucl.ac.uk/dis/people/chrisdillon

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Terminology
by Dillon, Chris Sept. 23, 2015

Sept. 23, 2015

Dear colleagues, Thank you for yesterday's meeting, which was well attended. For those not there, a link to a recording of the meeting will be made available in the near future. I have started a new page on the wiki on terminology: https://community.icann.org/display/croscomlgrprocedure/LGP+terminology I would like to suggest that there is at least one Homoglyph between the Armenian and Latin scripts, and that the Armenian script is not Separable. That would mean we do need to consider confusability (presumably visual similarity, rather than other forms of confusability). Regards, Chris. -- Research Associate in Linguistic Computing, Centre for Digital Humanities, UCL, Gower St, London WC1E 6BT Tel +44 20 7679 1599 (int 31599) www.ucl.ac.uk/dis/people/chrisdillon<http://www.ucl.ac.uk/dis/people/chrisdillon>

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Discussion of the Armenian GP request
by Paul Hoffman Sept. 21, 2015

Sept. 21, 2015

It is not clear to me that the Latin GP should addressing the issues that were sent to us by the Armenian GP. Here are a few thoughts on the subject. 1) The Integration Panel believes that the Armenian script is from the Latin script, according to Section 3.8.3 of the MSR2. 2) Section B.3.4.2 of the LGR Procedures document says "Finally, in investigating the possible variant relations, Generation Panels should ignore cases where the relation is based exclusively on aspects of visual similarity." 3) Even ignoring the previous two points, the request seems to be for cross-script variants, such as for an Armenian letter that looks like a Latin letter. The "Guidelines for LGR" document indicates that cross-script variants might be created, but gives no hints about why we should do that given that the root zone will consist of labels of a single script (according to Section A.3.1). This feels to me like the Armenian GP's submission is not related to ours, so we should not be commenting on it. --Paul Hoffman

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LatinGP Conference Call
by Alireza Saleh Sept. 21, 2015

Sept. 21, 2015

How to connect: Link to Adobe Connect: http://icann.adobeconnect.com/lgr/ *Upon logging into Adobe Connect, a pop up window will provide you the option to Dial Out to your Phone. Enter your Phone Number* (Remember to change the Country Code if needed). After joining the call, as a courtesy to others and the presenters, please MUTE your phone. This can be done by selecting *6 on your keypad. To UNMUTE select *6 again.

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LatinGP Conference Call
by Alireza Saleh Sept. 21, 2015

Sept. 21, 2015

Dial-in Numbers: https://mtginfo.pgi.com/globalcallmanagement.asp?bwebid=9820041&cid=da6ee6b… Pin: 436 268 5274

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LatinGP Conference Call
by Alireza Saleh Sept. 21, 2015

Sept. 21, 2015

Dial-in Numbers: https://mtginfo.pgi.com/globalcallmanagement.asp?bwebid=9820041&cid=da6ee6b… Pin: 436 268 5274

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Re: [Latingp] First meeting
by Alireza Saleh Sept. 21, 2015

Sept. 21, 2015

Hi, Thank you Chris for your email regarding the first LatinGP call. I would like to add that the virtual room for the meeting is at: http://icann.adobeconnect.com/lgr/. You can also join the meeting by phone or Skype using the following information: Dial in numbers: View dial-in numbers <https://mtginfo.pgi.com/globalcallmanagement.asp?bwebid=9820041&cid=da6ee6b bd7ef5a1ed779fcee4d4a&confid=da6ce6bed7ed5a1ed77ffce64d4a&brandid=1> Pin-code: 436 268 5274 Best Regards Alireza From: <latingp-bounces(a)icann.org> on behalf of "Dillon, Chris" <c.dillon(a)ucl.ac.uk> Date: Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 11:16 PM To: "LatinGP(a)icann.org" <LatinGP(a)icann.org> Subject: Re: [Latingp] First meeting Dear colleagues, Tuesday at UTC 17:00 is still the best time for our weekly calls and I would like to run the first call on Tuesday 22. I realize that some of you will not be able to make it, but there will either be a recording of the call or detailed notes on it. There will not be a meeting of the Integration Panel until after the deadline for public comments on the Armenian proposal (Sept. 30). I have, however, been able to have an informal email exchange about the sentence in the Procedure that could have been understood as our not needing to comment: "Finally, in investigating the possible variant relations, Generation Panels should ignore cases where the relation is based exclusively on aspects of visual similarity." The sentence deals with where the boundary should be between strict homoglyphs (fundamentally the same letter but acquired a different encoding in Unicode) dealt with in the LGR, and glyphs with less visual similarity, dealt with by the String Similarity process. Its intent was that the LGR would not be overloaded by complex string similarity issues. An example of the former would be Latin and Cyrillic a; an example of the latter would be the letter l (lower case of L) and number 1. This idea would also explain why it was not necessary for the Arabic GP to consider cross script issues with Latin and why the Armenian panel did cover them. Some aspects of where this boundary should lie are still under debate, and that is also a reason for us to make a public comment. Regards, Chris. Co-Chair LGP == Research Associate in Linguistic Computing, Centre for Digital Humanities, UCL, Gower St, London WC1E 6BT Tel +44 20 7679 1599 (int 31599) www.ucl.ac.uk/dis/people/chrisdillon <http://www.ucl.ac.uk/dis/people/chrisdillon> From: latingp-bounces(a)icann.org [mailto:latingp-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Dillon, Chris Sent: 11 September 2015 09:49 To: LatinGP(a)icann.org Subject: [Latingp] First meeting Dear LGP colleagues, Please fill in the following Doodle poll by Sunday to set the time of our first telephone call, bearing in mind that the time slot may be used for our regular meetings: http://doodle.com/poll/9pcqecfhrkk7a2dy The draft agenda is still as follows: 1. Attendance 2. Welcome 3. Background to the LGP 4. Comment on Armenian GP's proposal 5. (if time) Work plan for LGP 6. Dates of next meetings 7. AOB Let me know if you would like any agenda items added. I shall table documents on 4. and 5. nearer the time. The reason for 4. is that the Armenian GP has a discussion of homoglyph relations between Armenian and Latin scripts in their proposal for the Root Zone LGR for the Armenian script: www.icann.org/public-comments/proposal-armenian-lgr-2015-07-22-en <http://www.icann.org/public-comments/proposal-armenian-lgr-2015-07-22-en> . This affects the LGP and we shall be expected to make a public comment. Regards, Chris. Co-Chair LGP -- Research Associate in Linguistic Computing, Centre for Digital Humanities, UCL, Gower St, London WC1E 6BT Tel +44 20 7679 1599 (int 31599) www.ucl.ac.uk/dis/people/chrisdillon <http://www.ucl.ac.uk/dis/people/chrisdillon>

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First meeting
by Dillon, Chris Sept. 20, 2015

Sept. 20, 2015

Dear LGP colleagues, Please fill in the following Doodle poll by Sunday to set the time of our first telephone call, bearing in mind that the time slot may be used for our regular meetings: http://doodle.com/poll/9pcqecfhrkk7a2dy The draft agenda is still as follows: 1. Attendance 2. Welcome 3. Background to the LGP 4. Comment on Armenian GP's proposal 5. (if time) Work plan for LGP 6. Dates of next meetings 7. AOB Let me know if you would like any agenda items added. I shall table documents on 4. and 5. nearer the time. The reason for 4. is that the Armenian GP has a discussion of homoglyph relations between Armenian and Latin scripts in their proposal for the Root Zone LGR for the Armenian script: www.icann.org/public-comments/proposal-armenian-lgr-2015-07-22-en<http://www.icann.org/public-comments/proposal-armenian-lgr-2015-07-22-en>. This affects the LGP and we shall be expected to make a public comment. Regards, Chris. Co-Chair LGP -- Research Associate in Linguistic Computing, Centre for Digital Humanities, UCL, Gower St, London WC1E 6BT Tel +44 20 7679 1599 (int 31599) www.ucl.ac.uk/dis/people/chrisdillon<http://www.ucl.ac.uk/dis/people/chrisdillon>

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Re: [Latingp] For consideration at LGP first meeting (Agenda point 4)
by Paul Hoffman Sept. 18, 2015

Sept. 18, 2015

This request is fairly confusing, at least to me, on three counts: 1) Section B.3.4.2 of the LGR Procedures document says "Finally, in investigating the possible variant relations, Generation Panels should ignore cases where the relation is based exclusively on aspects of visual similarity." 2) The Armenian script does not appear to be related to the Latin script in the sense of the LGR rules. The characters that might have similar usage in the scripts mostly look completely different. 3) Even ignoring the previous two points, the request seems to be for cross-script variants, such as for an Armenian letter that looks like a Latin letter. The "Guidelines for LGR" document indicates that cross-script variants might be created, but gives no hints about why we should do that given that the root zone will consist of labels of a single script (according to Section A.3.1). This feels to me like the Armenian GP's submission is not related to ours, so we should not be commenting on it. --Paul Hoffman

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For consideration at LGP first meeting (Agenda point 4)
by Dillon, Chris Sept. 16, 2015

Sept. 16, 2015

Dear LGP colleagues, We have been asked to comment on the Armenian GP's final proposal for the Root Zone LGR for the Armenian script: www.icann.org/public-comments/proposal-armenian-lgr-2015-07-22-en<http://www.icann.org/public-comments/proposal-armenian-lgr-2015-07-22-en> as a final step before its evaluation by the Integration Panel and integration into the Root Zone LGR. This will be on the agenda of our first meeting. ***The Doodle poll for the first meeting (http://doodle.com/poll/7h4zs5tinmdztxyw) closes at UTC 23:59 tonight. Please fill it in if you have not already done so and/or suggest other time slots.*** In the Armenian proposal documentation they discuss homoglyph relations between Armenian and Latin scripts. So, what is meant by homoglyph relations? The Applicant Guide Book used in the first round of the New gTLD Program defined the related concept of string similarity as follows: "The String Similarity Panel's task is to identify visual string similarities that would create a probability of user confusion." ... "String confusion exists where a string so nearly resembles another visually that it is likely to deceive or cause confusion. For the likelihood of confusion to exist, it must be probable, not merely possible that confusion will arise in the mind of the average, reasonable Internet user. Mere association, in the sense that the string brings another string to mind, is insufficient to find a likelihood of confusion." The text also makes it clear that, when considering confusion, you have to place yourself in the shoes of "the average, reasonable Internet user". Unless the context demands it, this would not include children, non-native language speakers, those with special educational needs or other vulnerable users. - Upper case (in the case of the Roman, Greek and Cyrillic alphabets*), italic and alternative ways of writing a letter (code point variants) should also be taken into consideration. [*and Armenian!] I have attached the list of Armenian and Latin homoglyphs in the proposal. In consultation with Armenian experts based in the University of London, I would like also to suggest the Armenian letters in the attached Additional letters for consideration. I have also attached an Excel spreadsheet on the Armenian script downloaded from the Omniglot website. On the Eastern Armenian tab, I have added rows containing italic and Lucida Sans Unicode versions of the script. We should also be concerned about the possibility of two Armenian letters looking like a Latin letter; cf. Latin rn (RN) and m (M). ***It would be good to make some progress on this list before the meeting, so please send your comments to the list.*** Regards, Chris Dillon. Co-Chair LGP -- Research Associate in Linguistic Computing, Centre for Digital Humanities, UCL, Gower St, London WC1E 6BT Tel +44 20 7679 1599 (int 31599) www.ucl.ac.uk/dis/people/chrisdillon<http://www.ucl.ac.uk/dis/people/chrisdillon>

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[lgr] Lao Generation Panel Seated
by Jia-Juh Kimoto Sept. 15, 2015

Sept. 15, 2015

Dear All, We are pleased to announce that the Lao Generation Panel has been seated. Please see details at https://www.icann.org/news/announcement-2015-09-15-en. With this news, the currently seated panels include Arabic, Armenian, Chinese, Japanese and Neo-Brahmi. Regards, Jia Jia-Juh Yuh Kimoto IDN Program Team ICANN - Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers 12025 Waterfront Drive, Suite 300 Los Angeles, CA 90094 Cell: 1.310.795.1576 Direct: 1.310.578.8905 Email: jiajuh.kimoto(a)icann.org<mailto:jiajuh.kimoto@icann.org> Skype: jiajuh.kimoto.icann PPlease consider the environment - do you really need to print this e-mail? _______________________________________________ lgr mailing list lgr(a)icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lgr

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Re: [Latingp] First meeting
by Dillon, Chris Sept. 14, 2015

Sept. 14, 2015

Dear LGP colleagues, Thank you for filling in the Doodle poll. The best time is Tuesday at UTC 17:00. However, only six members (once Eric and I are included) can make it. That isn't enough for a first meeting. Let us keep the poll open until 23:59 on Wednesday 16. http://doodle.com/poll/7h4zs5tinmdztxyw Please also let me know if none of the times are convenient and make suggestions for new slots in UTC. My last working group, for example, thrived at 13:00 on a Thursday. This may mean that the meeting will occur during the week starting Monday 21. Regards, Chris. -- Research Associate in Linguistic Computing, Centre for Digital Humanities, UCL, Gower St, London WC1E 6BT Tel +44 20 7679 1599 (int 31599) www.ucl.ac.uk/dis/people/chrisdillon<http://www.ucl.ac.uk/dis/people/chrisdillon>

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LGP first telephone call
by Dillon, Chris Sept. 4, 2015

Sept. 4, 2015

Dear LGP colleagues, Welcome to the Latin Generation Panel! I am hoping it will be possible to run our first telephone call next week, or early the following week. The draft agenda is as follows: 1. Attendance 2. Welcome 3. Background to the LGP 4. Comment on Armenian GP's proposal 5. (if time) Work plan for LGP 6. Dates of next meetings 7. AOB Let me know if you would like any agenda items added. I shall table documents on 4. and 5. nearer the time. The reason for 4. is that the Armenian GP has a discussion of homoglyph relations between Armenian and Latin scripts in their proposal for the Root Zone LGR for the Armenian script: www.icann.org/public-comments/proposal-armenian-lgr-2015-07-22-en . This affects the LGP and we shall be expected to make a public comment. ICANN staff will be in contact soon with a Doodle poll to decide the time of the meeting. Regards, Chris. Co-Chair LGP -- Research Associate in Linguistic Computing, Centre for Digital Humanities, UCL, Gower St, London WC1E 6BT Tel +44 20 7679 1599 (int 31599) www.ucl.ac.uk/dis/people/chrisdillon<http://www.ucl.ac.uk/dis/people/chrisdillon>

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