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Reminder and notes from ICANN66
by Mirjana Tasić Nov. 8, 2019

Nov. 8, 2019

Dear Latin GP members Please find attached my recollection of what I have heard and noted during different conversations at ICANN66. We shall discuss this paper as first item during our next telephone conference call. Let’s try to comment this document until Wednesday, November the 13th, I shall try to consolidate comments, and to present document with all changes. I am asking GP members, who attended ICANN66, to give their input to this document, and to suggest changes to everything I did not understand correctly. Regards Mirjana

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Re: [Latingp] Stacking
by Bill Jouris Nov. 6, 2019

Nov. 6, 2019

Hi Asmus, Thanks for the quick response. Comments inline below. Bill Jouris Inside Products bill.jouris(a)insidethestack.com 831-659-8360 925-855-9512 (direct) On Tuesday, November 5, 2019, 08:06:08 PM GMT-5, Asmus Freytag <asmusf(a)ix.netcom.com> wrote: Bill, in continuation of our discussion, here's how I would have replied if you had asked this in the session: First, you write: "The ideal solution, of course, would be for the Unicode folks to create new pre-composed code points for these problem cases. But I suspect there is little chance of them doing so before our report is due. So, we will have to figure out an alternate approach to recommend." Unicode has an explicit policy of not adding any more precomposed code points for the kinds of combinations considered. So there's a definite answer that such will not happen. Ever. >> Good to know what Unicode's policy is on this. I wonder why, given that they have a bunch of pre-composed code points which are not used in any of what we fondly believe are the major languages using the Latin alphabet. Presumably they had their reasons for choosing the ones that they did. >> If those reasons include indications that we missed a major language or three that we should have included, that would be useful to know ASAP. I would say that Courier New is perhaps an unfortunate choice of reference font. Some other people may have more details, or actual knowledge of what MSFT's plan is for that font, but it is my impression that the Courier New font was state of the art in the past, and it certainly looks like has not been maintained actively to cover more languages (and frankly, I can't recall seeing it much recently). >> We'll need to discuss whether to shift to a different mono-width font for out analysis. On one hand, there would be a lot of work to consider redoing -- which would take time that we probably don't have. On the other hand, there's something to be said for using the same set of fonts throughout the analysis. Perhaps we can decide that one exception, for the non-pre-composed cases, is the least bad solution. As I say, we'll have to thrash it out. There are other more recent monowidth fonts such as Lucida Console. See screen shot at the end. I've also appended the results for Segoe UI which is the font used in my browser (Firefox on Windows7). >> Clearly we have been handicapped by none of us being expert in which fonts are growing obsolete and which are more current. As you say, the universe of Latin fonts is enormous. Clearly we couldn't look at anything like the whole. For example, we totally ignored all the cursive-based fonts -- which would have, among other things, generated a bunch more variants. But we are where we are at the moment. There's a near infinite universe of Latin-script fonts, and many do not attempt to cover the entire script. If we include hyperlinks in text (those showing the URL) there is no way we can predict which fonts a user will see a domain name in. We have three choices here: (1) remove from the Latin LGR all code points/sequences not rendered reliably in any font (2) remove from the Latin LGR all code points/sequences not rendered reliably in any "well-known" font (3) remove from the Latin LGR all code points/sequences not rendered reliably in common user interface fonts: Windows, iOS, Android and all browsers if they don't use platform fonts (latest version) Because of the way Latin-script fonts tend to subset, there's no way that (1) is a reasonable choice in my view. >> Absolutely agree. Or even possible. The problem with (2) is that some "well-known" fonts are tied to early versions of a given platform and they *may* not be maintained any longer - while some of them are still widely used, they have been replaced for UI purposes by more modern / more capable fonts. Effectively, they may be retained as legacy - so that you can still view and edit documents that were created in them. Less well-known fonts (such as Arial Unicode MS) may not have made the cut and aren't routinely available any more. So the fact that a font is well-known increases the likelihood that it is a legacy font. Taken together, these considerations would argue against (2). >> As noted, we would need outside advice on which fonts are both "well-known" and modern (i.e. not legacy) in order to attempt 2. That leaves (3) as a "reasonable" choice for making a cut. I know you'd appreciate that choice of term :). It is also effectively forward-looking, because more support tends to be added to newer fonts/systems and that process looks like it would only continue. By all indication, more modern text fonts like Calibri, and modern UI fonts like Segoe UI do not have issues with these code points, and I simply can't imagine Google's Noto fonts would either. >> I'm not quite clear what you are recommending that we do here. Are you suggesting that we go back and redo using these three fonts? Or something else? Looking at the screen shot in context with the reasoning above, it seems to me that we are good, but if the Latin GP wants to document the issue (that many Latin fonts do subset the range of code points/glyphs/combinations that they support), that would be OK (if it doesn't otherwise delay the project). >> OK, notwithstanding the above, I'm reading this as saying that 1) we can stick with the fonts we are using, and 2) we can continue including the combination glyphs that I was concerned about, regardless of their issues in Courier New >> If that is not a correct understanding, please let me know. A./ PS: I have blind copied the other IP members Screenshot: Instead of Arial, the screenshot shows Calibri in the left column, despite the header. >> In Word (Windows 10), I get ɛ̱̈e rendered as problematic even in Lucida Console -- although it renders fine in Firefox for email. Just FYI. Inconsistency among word processing softwares is a real pain, but one we will probably never get away from. On 11/5/2019 10:32 AM, Sarmad Hussain wrote: FYI; please see below. Regards, Sarmad From: Bill Jouris <bill.jouris(a)insidethestack.com> Reply-To: Bill Jouris <bill.jouris(a)insidethestack.com> Date: Monday, November 4, 2019 at 6:03 PM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain(a)icann.org> Subject: [Ext] Stacking Hi Sarmad, In speaking with Asmus after the meeting today, he indicated an interest in seeing what we are looking at with stacking. Perhaps you could share the attached with him, or even the whole IP -- with the caveat that this is me reporting on what I found, and the GP has not yet decided what should be done in these cases. Perhaps the IP will have some ideas on how to deal with these cases. Thanks Bill Jouris Inside Products bill.jouris(a)insidethestack.com 831-659-8360 925-855-9512 (direct) _______________________________________________ Fab5 mailing list Fab5(a)icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/fab5 _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos) You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.

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IDN: Latin GP Meeting with IP at ICANN66
by Pitinan Kooarmornpatana Nov. 4, 2019

Nov. 4, 2019

Dear Latin GP members, This is a gentle reminder for the IDN: Latin GP Meeting with IP session starting in a few minute. (Monday 4 November 2019, 1215 - 1315 local time at Room #518. ) Link to ICANN66 schedule: https://66.schedule.icann.org/meetings/1116977 Remote participation: https://icann.zoom.us/my/yul66.518 Regards, Pitinan

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Re: [Latingp] FW: FOR IP: Proposal for a Latin Script Root Zone LGR V5
by Pitinan Kooarmornpatana Nov. 2, 2019

Nov. 2, 2019

Dear Mirjana, Latin GP Members, The IP provided an update version of the previous IP Feedback to the Latin LGR v5. The IP apologize for the short notice and the immediate update after the previous one. Please find attached the updated feedback. It adds some additional items about variants that the IP found since we sent out our initial review. Thank you. Regards, Pitinan From: Latingp <latingp-bounces(a)icann.org> on behalf of Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain(a)icann.org> Date: Tuesday, October 29, 2019 at 01:23 To: Mirjana Tasić <Mirjana.Tasic(a)rnids.rs>, Latin GP <latingp(a)icann.org> Subject: [Latingp] FW: FOR IP: Proposal for a Latin Script Root Zone LGR V5 Dear Mirjana, Latin GP members, Thank you for your considerable effort to put the Latin RZ-LGR proposal together in time for IP to review before ICANN66. Here is an initial response from the IP on the Latin proposal. In the interest of time and to facilitate discussion at ICANN66 this is only a partial review (mostly variants) and that additional aspects of the proposal will be reviewed separately by the IP. Hopefully, those will not require the same efforts to resolve. IP would like to discuss the issues raised here in a meeting between the Latin GP's representatives and IP members at ICANN66. For cross-script variants, IP may also want to have a discussion with all the GPs from related scripts. Regards, Sarmad From: Latingp <latingp-bounces(a)icann.org> on behalf of Mirjana Tasić <Mirjana.Tasic(a)rnids.rs> Date: Sunday, October 13, 2019 at 10:16 PM To: Latin GP <latingp(a)icann.org> Subject: [Latingp] FW: FOR IP: Proposal for a Latin Script Root Zone LGR V5 Dear Latin GP members, Here is the letter I sent to Pitinan for IP. Regards Mirjana From: Mirjana Tasić <Mirjana.Tasic(a)rnids.rs> Date: Sunday, 13 October 2019 at 19:05 To: Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo(a)icann.org> Subject: FOR IP: Proposal for a Latin Script Root Zone LGR V5 Dear Pitinan, Please send the following material to IP. I am sorry we had no time to format the document properly, I have corrected some formatting but did not have enough time to correct all . Conversion from Google docs to word produced some formatting problems, so the .pdf version of the report is not properly formatted also. We have not finalized yet test label data set, we shall do it in the near future. I hope that IP will accept our apologies, time was very critical resource. Best regards Mirjana

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Re: [Latingp] Missing In-Script Cases
by Tan Tanaka, Dennis Oct. 31, 2019

Oct. 31, 2019

I have a more nuanced view; our analysis and views can be independent that of IP’s so long they don’t conflict with the LGR Procedure. IMHO, we have crossed that line in some proposed cases and IP is making this observation. -Dennis From: Latingp <latingp-bounces(a)icann.org> on behalf of Mirjana Tasić <Mirjana.Tasic(a)rnids.rs> Date: Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 5:53 AM To: Meikal Mumin <meikal(a)mumin.de>, "latingp(a)icann.org" <latingp(a)icann.org>, Michael Bauland <Michael.Bauland(a)knipp.de> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Latingp] Missing In-Script Cases Dear Colleagues, I agree with Meikal’s view. First item of our agenda for the next telephone call will be discussion about IP’s paper and our conversation with them during ICANN66. Regards Mirjana From: Latin GP <latingp-bounces(a)icann.org> on behalf of Meikal Mumin <meikal(a)mumin.de> Date: Wednesday, 30 October 2019 at 18:00 To: Latin GP <latingp(a)icann.org>, Michael Bauland <Michael.Bauland(a)knipp.de> Subject: Re: [Latingp] Missing In-Script Cases Dear colleagues, I don’t see any issue in putting this on-hold until after having a meeting with IP, but I also believe that IP has misunderstood some of the analysis based on a quick look at their response, and our analysis and views should be independent of IPs. So even if we hold this off for now, we should continue with a unified and coherent approach to the variant analysis and modify it only where we see a need, instead of arbitrarily omitting individual cases. Let IP judge on the final product featuring all of our own evidence and rationale for each actual variant case instead of speculating and discarding cases without having a clear understanding of the situation. Currently this simply remains unfinished. Best wishes, Meikal Am 30. Okt. 2019, 14:50 +0100 schrieb Michael Bauland <Michael.Bauland(a)knipp.de>: Hi all, On 30.10.2019 14:37, Tan Tanaka, Dennis via Latingp wrote: Should we put this on-hold in light of IP’s preliminary feedback and pending comments from our meeting with them next week? I agree with Dennis. We should discuss this with IP and then internally first before continuing. See you next week, Michael -- ____________________________________________________________________ | | | knipp | Knipp Medien und Kommunikation GmbH ------- Technologiepark Martin-Schmeisser-Weg 9 44227 Dortmund Germany Dipl.-Informatiker Fon: +49 231 9703-0 Fax: +49 231 9703-200 Dr. Michael Bauland SIP: Michael.Bauland(a)knipp.de Software Development E-mail: Michael.Bauland(a)knipp.de Register Court: Amtsgericht Dortmund, HRB 13728 Chief Executive Officers: Dietmar Knipp, Elmar Knipp _______________________________________________ Latingp mailing list Latingp(a)icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/latingp _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos) You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.

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Rationales for Cases suggested for Variant Analysis
by Meikal Mumin Oct. 31, 2019

Oct. 31, 2019

Dear colleagues, As per the suggestion from Dennis, I have inserted a hypothesis as rationale for each case in the Appendix D for the current version 6 of the proposal. My suggestion is to discuss these one by one together with the data for each case after ICANN66. Safe travels for everyone. Best, Meikal

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Missing In-Script Cases
by Meikal Mumin Oct. 31, 2019

Oct. 31, 2019

Dear colleagues, I have created template sections for each missing case of a potential in-script variant to be analyzed in Appendix D and have updated the Trello list assigning each case to a reviewer. Assigned reviewers are asked to insert results of their analyses into the relevant template section and email Mirjana and myself on completion so we could check them off in Trello. The Trello list is available here: https://trello.com/c/BoKkXTzF/1-in-script-variants-analysis The current Template v6 is available here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ev8jyIjLr3L1gkUEozkS3Xj3RVp1HSbrgZTlM85… Best, Meikal

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FW: FOR IP: Proposal for a Latin Script Root Zone LGR V5
by Mirjana Tasić Oct. 29, 2019

Oct. 29, 2019

Dear Latin GP members, Here is the letter I sent to Pitinan for IP. Regards Mirjana From: Mirjana Tasić <Mirjana.Tasic(a)rnids.rs> Date: Sunday, 13 October 2019 at 19:05 To: Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo(a)icann.org> Subject: FOR IP: Proposal for a Latin Script Root Zone LGR V5 Dear Pitinan, Please send the following material to IP. I am sorry we had no time to format the document properly, I have corrected some formatting but did not have enough time to correct all . Conversion from Google docs to word produced some formatting problems, so the .pdf version of the report is not properly formatted also. We have not finalized yet test label data set, we shall do it in the near future. I hope that IP will accept our apologies, time was very critical resource. Best regards Mirjana

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Consistency in analysis
by Tan Tanaka, Dennis Oct. 25, 2019

Oct. 25, 2019

All, let me try to explain the problem of excluding certain code points from different sets when doing the analysis. Let’s assume two scenarios for the hypothetical analysis: Scenario 1: Set 1 = {A, B} Set 2 = {A, C} For Set 1, it was concluded A is a variant of B. In Set 2, it was concluded A is not a variant of C. Then, the only resulting variant set is A --> B (symmetry implied) Scenario 2: Set 1 = {A, B} Set 3 = {A, B, C} For Set 1, A is deemed variant of B In Set 3, A is deemed variant of B, B deemed a variant of C, but A not a variant of C. The resulting variant sets are A --> B, B--> C; and due to transitivity A-->C is also a variant pair. My point was that by excluding a code point from the analysis can result in different result as to the variant sets identified. Hope this helps clarify. Dennis

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[lgr] IDN Program Update at ICANN66
by Pitinan Kooarmornpatana Oct. 25, 2019

Oct. 25, 2019

Dear All Generation Panel members, Please join us for the IDN Program Update at ICANN66 on Wednesday 6 November 2019, 1515 - 1645 local time at Room #514A. Link to ICANN66 schedule: https://66.schedule.icann.org/meetings/1119560 Remote participation: https://icann.zoom.us/my/yul66.514a Warm Regards, Pitinan _______________________________________________ lgr mailing list lgr(a)icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lgr _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos) You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.

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